WAR love is out of hand. Twelve forbid the other Tanks stand out in any way.

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Originally Posted by Tila

lol

Also, the reason we have all these parses putting OT warrior high up is because very few people are willing to even try alternates (groups that are trying no WAR aren't exactly complaining either) Or if they do, they dont count combined tank DPS, rather just what the warrior is doing. Which is also a failing.

Or worse, they're being selective on which parses they show. Like Ravana which highly favors burst damage is wretched proof that WAR is doing to much DPS.

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Lets also not forget that WAR attracts a more DPS mind set simply because of the identity being built around as a "dps tank". It gives license for people to try and actually hurt things versus becoming a turtle tank/VIT hero. I had a similar mindset when I was doing WAR and I've brought it over to DRK as well. Yeah I get beat as OT but not crushed, and MTing I can usually win vs WAR if I try hard enough/get goad.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

In fact, DRK's enmity combo is their lowest.

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Only if you DA Soul Eater.

Well Shield Swipe used to be worth using because it was a DPS gain to do so (plus good on TP management). Now that it's a DPS loss to use, it loses some of its appeal.

Part of the problem with Swipe and stances being on the global cooldown is that it ruins your skill flow. Right now you have enough time to cycle all 3 combos and it just keeps up the relevant debuffs. If you slot in a stance switch or swipe in there, then you have to let the debuffs drop for 2-3 seconds

Plus stances breaking combo limits where you can switch them. If you're mid combo and want to switch to Sword Oath, you end up cancelling Shield Oath > finishing combo > putting up Sword Oath. Going from Sword to Shield you basically have to pre-emptively put it up if you know you'll be mid-combo when you need to switch.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Snip

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I'm glad there can be actual discussion on the matter, and I'd very much so like to know what equations you're using for your effective HP numbers. Dark Knight utility is lacking behind the other two, that's a point I can agree on.

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Originally Posted by Naelle

Not sure why you're getting so defensive, nothing I said was directed at you specifically. A 10% difference in mitigation is not broken, it's balanced in other places. What frustrates me is the community keeps referring to Dark Knight as the magic tank more and more. Yes, they're slightly better equipped to deal with big magic busters, but that doesn't mean they're the only ones that can survive. Also, if you want to quote me please use the whole quote:

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You responded to my post while making arguments that were nowhere in my post. I wasn't getting "defensive" I was pointing out where you argument had gone moot.
I'm not sure where anyone has made an argument that DRK is "broken", or why you have an issue with DRK being called a "magic tank" when they excel at mitigating magical damage over the other two tanks. I've never seen a single person argue that PLD or WAR can't deal with magical damage.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

Part of the problem with Swipe and stances being on the global cooldown is that it ruins your skill flow.

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I would rather not see Sword/Shield Oath changed to not be on the GCD. That mechanic of switching back and forth belongs to Warrior and makes them feel more unique. Maybe change them to not kill your combo position when you use them, the same way Flash works.

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Originally Posted by Airswimmer

DRK's Delirium combo is higher potency than their enmity combo.

Enmity combe: 150 + 220 + 300 = 670
Delirium combo: 150 + 250 + 280 = 680

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Correct.

Soul Eater Combo (No DA): 150 + 250 + 240 = 640
Soul Eater Combo (w/DA): 150 + 250 + 400 = 800

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Originally Posted by Naelle

I only really see a few issues, but here's how I'd fix them:

Butcher's Block: Reduce potency to 260 from 280
Storm's Eye: Increase potency from 270 to 280

Rage of Halone: Increase potency from 260 to 280
Royal Authority: Lower potency from 340 to 330

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For WAR, you neglected that Maim is 190 and Skull is 200 potency. Moving 10 from Butcher to Storm makes both combos equal in damage and changes nothing except a loss of 45 potency in enmity. One of WAR's traits is that it generates the highest enmity. Keeping Butcher's Block as is makes using Storm Path a meaningful trade off.

Rage of Halone's problem isn't that it is 260 potency. The problem with RoH is that its multiplier is x5 while the other tanks' versions multipliers is x5.5. (Dark Arts Power Slash is x6.5). A better fix for PLD is to add an additional x0.5 enmity multiplier to their basic aggro combo (and remove the multiplier from Swipe or Circle of Scorn).

Snap enmity problem on PLD is that they have some delay on most of their aggro moves. PLD still has the great AOE "snap" with Flash > CoS > Flash. Flash has better enmity that non-Maim Overpower. Yes Steel Cyclone generates more enmity in 1 GCD but SC has an ugly delay on its animation.

Why would you lower the potency of your non-aggro DPS increase combo? That's just silly. People are complaining that they can't DPS well as PLD already. lol

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Originally Posted by Naelle

I'm glad there can be actual discussion on the matter, and I'd very much so like to know what equations you're using for your effective HP numbers. Dark Knight utility is lacking behind the other two, that's a point I can agree on.

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Effective HP is easy to calculate: ToB is a direct increase of 20%. Damage reduction is basically multiplying current HP by the reciprocal of 100 - (reduced %). So for Rampart you have 100/(100-20) or a 25% increase in EHP. Vengeance is 100/(100-30) or 42.85% increase in EHP and so on.

Also buffs stack multiplicatively, so if you use ToB + IB you multiply your HP by 120% and again by 125% for a total of 150% (50% effective HP increase).

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Originally Posted by Naelle

I understand that people generally only show off their amazing parses, but where are they from the other Jobs? I've said it before, I don't want anything to be nerfed. I just want things to be balanced enough to allow any combination of Jobs to succeed.

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But, the classes can and do succeed. The issue is that very few people are willing to try different combinations, and instead are insisting that only specific ones work, based on what other people who won't try different combinations are saying.

The balance issues among the tanks are nothing compared to those of healers and DPS. Its little problems being blown way out of proportion when the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a best in certain areas. Many fixes people propose would just lead to bigger issues. Perfect balance can not be achieved without homogenization.

DRK can MT and OT just fine
PLD can MT and OT just fine
WAR can MT and OT just fine

This is what matters. None of the tanks will be kept from a position due to their class by anyone else but ignorant people you wouldn't want to raid with anyway.

All that arguing does is spread further ignorance on the subject and lead to self made issues. If, say, a PLD is kept from OTing, it likely won't be because they are bad for the role (which they are not), it will be because some ass hat complained that PLD cant do anything right and someone else took that as a fact rather than a misinformed opinion.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

@Tila

Some interesting fixes have been suggested for pld. I'd be interested to take on a bigger support role. Buff cover for magic so it can help eat tank busters and boost healing potential. That would make it a good off tank and allow healers more dps time.

Lower slashing debuff to 5% and give it to all tanks and make it stackable.

There have been some great thoughts. Just not inn this thread lol.

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Further boosting their support would just cause more bitching as PLD is in the same place as ARR BRD: people dont want to support, they want more damage. The majority of PLD bitching is centered around lack of damage.

Lower tank slashing debuff and you just made NIN a lot more needed, further upsetting the already shitty DPS balance.

If you just lower the slashing debuff even for NIN then you just nerfed NIN period.

Well look, another one of these butt hurt pld thread because warrior got a little more love. Fell cleave might look strong but it's a burst. Burst means it's not consistent DPS. means it's not as OP as anyone of u think it is, for god sake... DRK can pull almost 800 dps while tanking too. Hell i even seen some pld do 770 DPS on Alex savage. All jobs have their strength and weaknesses. Dont compare your weakness with another jobs strength. That's unfair comparison. By the way u talked about War, i dont think u even played the job long enough for your argument to be valid.

What is 500pot when PLD have a 540 pot dps skill? On a long run, Pld can out dmg a warrior. But when it comes to burst dmg, warrior wins.
edit.Also for a warrior, the highest pot combo skill is bb at 280 while PLD have a combo skill at 340 and a combo dot skill at 220(540 total)