Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

However ... In that same scenario, why wouldn't you bring SCH to heal the fight over AST? They literally offer every utility AST does (aside from CD reduction, which is mildly iffy at best, and MP/TP reduction, which is not necessary at all) more reliably, along with more healing output (synastry is like a faerie on CD) and better emergency cooldowns (especially now with Indom, ET, and DT).

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Main reason? My SCH is only level 55 :)

The other reasons include the fact I enjoy the challenge and that this raid doesn't require the powerhouse combo at the moment - We'll clear the content regardless of what combo we bring. WHM feels too overpowered and all the fights just seemed attuned to WHM healing. I don't even have to watch my mana anymore. It might be because I've 'mastered' WHM after almost 2 years and the new spells just make my role easier rather than challenging. I know that gives me a greater opportunity to DPS but I'm not playing a healer class to DPS. I would rather spend 80% of my time in non-cleric stance rather than 80% in cleric.

It might just be the fact that AST is new - I made a lot of mistakes last night with Synastry, poor use of Essential Dignity, not using my cards as effectively as I could, not prioritizing my heals as effectively as I could. Regardless, playing AST was fun and challenging.

I won't be taking AST in the first week of savage. I'll likely go SCH for a WHM/SCH combo. Depending on the difficulty (please actually be diffcult!) I'll rotate AST in the third week.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

You're right, it's not necessary. I didn't say it was. I just thought you were severely underplaying the power of a cost reduction buff. It's a huge help, and it lasts for 20 seconds, not 15. It's not going to buy them a spot unless they have a baseline healing, which they currently don't. But if they can baseline heal about the same as SCH/WHM and provide a range of powerful buffs on top of that, then they can vie for a spot. Right now they can't, because they just don't even have as powerful healing as either WHM/SCH.

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Even at equal healing potency, I'd still find their range of "powerful" buffs severely underwhelming, most of all since they're reliant on RNG. In my eyes, AST's buffs are only powerful on paper. Since paper doesn't account for RNG, or actually NEEDING one of the buffs AT A SPECIFIC TIME, AST's range of "powerful" buffs is anything but "powerful". It feels tacked on and poorly thought out, especially RR/Shuffle which almost always result in a "loss" compared to just using the original card in the first place. I've drawn Ewer 8+ times in a row in a group with no MDPS. Spear is iffy at best, and I usually just let it expire (so I don't get another CD from RR, since it's also a "loss" with Spear).

I love the idea and concept of AST. I was super excited for it before launch; however, I'm severely underwhelmed at the gimp WHM with RNG cards tacked onto it. It doesn't feel complete, at all. Especially since Nocturnal Stance is so awful and lacks synergy with the baseline toolkit that Dirunal has. The distinct lack of healing cooldowns and poor MP efficiency is terribly evident even at level 50 (compared to WHM/SCH); let's not even talk about Lightspeed. I'm not hating on AST, but the vehement defense of such an underpowered, incomplete class makes me sad; it could have been really awesome, but what we got was a gimp WHM with "meh" RNG buffs.

To me, a perfectly AST being only "passable" in content with a perfectly played group is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Poor MP efficiency is terribly evident even at level 50 (compared to WHM/SCH);

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Just want to mention that MP management becomes easier in end-game, it curves weirdly at 50 mainly because you are lacking your end-game spells. I've never really had a problem with MP, and I think those that do don't understand the class as of yet. It's almost identical to how a WHM should manage its MP.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

*snip*

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The RNG isn't that bad if you actually make use of RR, Shuffle, and Spread. Or you could just use the card. There's never a time when you NEED a certain buff (except for Ewer if you haven't been using them on the healers). I usually spread my first Ewer, RR my first Spire, and Shuffle a Spire if it comes up after that (fuck you Shuffle giving me Spire/Spear 3 times in a row).


Spear is always useful on: NIN/SMN/SCH > Yourself if you need to pop Lumi Aether or ED/WHM for SoS or Assize or Tetra > Tanks if they need their CDs in the next 20/40 seconds.
Arrow is always useful on: Highest DPS or BLM > Healers > Anyone Else
Spire is always useful on: Tanks (so when you get a TP Song it's for DPS and not for enmity) > NIN/DRG/MCH > other DPS
Ewer is always useful on: Healers or DRK > SMN > just RR it
Bole is useful if: You see a tank buster coming, someone isn't dodging an AoE, otherwise RR it
Balance is always useful: top DPS or whoever has CDs up for burst.

Spread off-CD? Spread Ewer or Spear or Bole if it comes up; save it for when you need it.
Spire? RR it if you don't need it (trash pulls, early on in boss). If you draw it next time, great, 40s of 20% reduced TP costs.
You can Shuffle 1 out of 3 cards.

Also you are throwing out one of these buffs every 30 seconds. Over a long fight that is huge.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Also you are throwing out one of these buffs every 30 seconds. Over a long fight that is huge.

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That's assuming every buff is always useful, which they aren't always useful. Using RR is almost always a loss in long-term utility, and Shuffle is just as likely to draw the same card as it is a different card.

Again, listing all the utility AST offers on paper (as you have done, again) is great; however, it's rarely as useful as it seems in practice. It doesn't account for RNG, timing, or requiring that specific buff at that time.

I'd be fine with the buffs AST offers, if:

Spire/Ewer combined.
Arrow/Spear combined.
Shuffle can't give the same card.
Reduced Draw-CD on RR.

It would be far more reliable and useful in far more situations than it is currently. This would, too, assume AST's healing is adjusted to match/compete better other healers and Nocturnal Sect was reworked.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

*snip*

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I...literally just listed the ways in which cards are always useful.

It seems to me at this point you are just denying the power of the card buffs. Astrologian doesn't seem to be for you. Like I said, the problem is that their baseline healing is too weak to even compete as a healer unless you are overgeared for the content. The buffs on top of being able to keep the party alive are the draw. And the buffs are strong, given how often you can pump them out.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I...literally just listed the ways in which cards are always useful.

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No, you didn't. You listed the priority you use for dealing with card RNG in a perfect scenario, but failed to acknowledge that RNG exists.

Your list didn't account for drawing the same card you didn't need previously twice (or more) from either Shuffle or Draw. Every buff is not always useful, period. RNG/cooldowns makes sure of that, along with group composition, specifically in 4 man groups.

What happens when you draw Ewer 6 times in a row with no MDPS? What happens when you draw Spire 4 times with no PDPS? What about drawing the Bole several times when no one is taking significant damage?

Are they always useful then, or will you continue to deny that this happens (due to RNG)?

Yes, you can help manage the RNG factor in perfect scenarios through smart play. However, when RNG doesn't play to your advantage, there is nothing you can do to make your class more useful compared to WHM/SCH.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

The buffs on top of being able to keep the party alive are the draw. And the buffs are strong, given how often you can pump them out.

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The cards give the illusion of strategy. In theory I know what card I want to draw and when I want to utalise them but there are times I draw the wrong card at the wrong time and I feel like SE hasn't given me the opportunity to actually play effectively


This is a copy and paste from my other post but...

Take Ravana extreme. Imagine you go into the fight for the first time. Whilst you’ve watched a couple of videos and read the strat, there are things you only begin to understand when experiencing the fight. For example, there are significant periods of ‘down time’ in this fight where Ravana leaves the arena. Unless you are fully prepared with the timings of these abilities you are most likely going to waste your buff times – there were plenty of times where I could have wasted an spear/arrow(royal road) + balance combo (when RNG was nice) without realising that the DPS couldn’t actually DPS for the next 40 seconds.

This makes AST significantly weaker than both WHM and SCH. Selene own her own accord has the ability to consistently roll buffs on the raid – Whilst you may lose half a speed or spell buff due to mechanics, there will be opportunity to benefit from this buff again. In comparison, there is a chance that AST may never roll balance again for the remainder of that encounter. A WHM doesn't need to buff per say but has the ability to 'save the raid' with strong heals through unpredictable damage and abilities.

What SE need to do is give more options for cards which include (but are not limited to)

• Allowing Royal Road to stack up to 3 (in combat only!)
• Allowing spread to hold up to three unique cards
• Shuffle cannot draw the same card
• (QoL) Fast discard option which reduces next draw CD by 15 seconds
  

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

No, you didn't. You listed the priority you use for dealing with card RNG, but failed to acknowledge that RNG exists.

Your list didn't account for drawing the same card you didn't need previously twice from either Shuffle or Draw. Every buff is not always useful, period. RNG/cooldowns makes sure of that, along with group composition, specifically in 4 man groups.

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No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

You seem to have trouble mitigating RNG. I was trying to help with that. You see "RNG, don't think these buffs are useful, therefore buffs suck" and say AST sucks, instead of trying to see how a card can always be useful.

I can't make it any clearer for you than what I said before, at this point we're just yelling "No I'm right!" back and forth.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

No, I literally listed who to use it on. Because it's always useful on those people. Every card is always useful whether it's to use or to RR it.

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The poster immediately above you stated the exact thing I've been trying to explain more clearly.

You are also ignoring the entire second half of the same post you quoted; I edited it afterwards to make it more clear.

You are still ignoring the RNG like it's perfectly manageable in every possible situation, but it's not. Yes, I know who to use cards on. Yes, I know I can RR/Shuffle them to try again; however, this only mitigates the RNG sometimes, but doesn't control it.