Dragoon, under the shadow of Ninja

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

He meant that we gotta go to the flank and the rear of the boss for a couple of our abilities - and we can't do that if we have the aggro of the mob. -15% damage because of no Heavy Thrust and ~8-9% even less damage because of no Disembowel - not even mentioning the loss of Chaos Thrust. Also, you can't really expect dragoons to be top aggro after tanks, depending on how many shrieks they got and how good the other DPS are. Assuming everyone is on equal level, during battle, dragoons will lose aggro.

Also, for anyone suggesting that, good luck on being "off-tanks" during adds phase.

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But he actually spoke of "mechanics of the fight" and neither HT nor ID qualify as fight mechanics and he also wrote "the Dragoon has to turn around" which isn't the same as going flank or rear (as you just never turn around while doing that, you'll want to keep facing the mob 100% of the time to keep your auto attacks connecting).

I'm not proposing any form of Dragoon tanking as in my eyes it's not viable. Of course we may hold an add in the Melusine fight long enough for the OT to be raised, but filling in as an emergency solution isn't what I'd seriously consider as tanking. Any serious tanking would have the Dragoon drop dead in a matter of seconds.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

But he actually spoke of "mechanics of the fight" and neither HT nor ID qualify as fight mechanics and he also wrote "the Dragoon has to turn around" which isn't the same as going flank or rear (as you just never turn around while doing that, you'll want to keep facing the mob 100% of the time to keep your auto attacks connecting).

I'm not proposing any form of Dragoon tanking as in my eyes it's not viable. Of course we may hold an add in the Melusine fight long enough for the OT to be raised, but filling in as an emergency solution isn't what I'd seriously consider as tanking. Any serious tanking would have the Dragoon drop dead in a matter of seconds.

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Oh. Sorry, yes, I mistook what he meant - I thought that "turn around" referred to the dragoon switching from rear to flank etc. Then yeah, "not having flash while turned" is not really the main issue here. Not being able to dish out maximum damage as a dragoon, which already isn't much compared to others in optimal circumstances, is already an obstacle; that is because our threatis directly tied to damage, due to our lack of threat managing weaponskills. Except Skull Sunder...yeah, no.

I know you specifically didn't mean to propose that, I was talking about others in this and other threads who continue stating that our physical defense is good for holding the boss. Which, as you pointed out, is not actually the case. Not at all. And it's maddening to read more and more comments about dragoons being "viable for tanking physical enemies" when it's like stating that a Black Mage could tank a magic boss.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

I know you specifically didn't mean to propose that, I was talking about others in this and other threads who continue stating that our physical defense is good for holding the boss. Which, as you pointed out, is not actually the case. Not at all. And it's maddening to read more and more comments about dragoons being "viable for tanking physical enemies" when it's like stating that a Black Mage could tank a magic boss.

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It was a specific answer to a specific situation though. On certain fights, if the DRG is forced to tank (shit happens) and can be healed for (let's say) 20 seconds, that's enough time to raise the tank, protect/SS/adlo him, top him off, trade hate and start over from here. BLM could do it for magic bosses if not for their low HP pool which makes it harder to let them live that long.

Ofc DRG are all but viable tanks. They are just able to serve as "oh shit" off tanks for a handful of seconds, which is enough to start over if noone hits the panic mode button.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

It was a specific answer to a specific situation though. On certain fights, if the DRG is forced to tank (shit happens) and can be healed for (let's say) 20 seconds, that's enough time to raise the tank, protect/SS/adlo him, top him off, trade hate and start over from here. BLM could do it for magic bosses if not for their low HP pool which makes it harder to let them live that long.

Ofc DRG are all but viable tanks. They are just able to serve as "oh shit" off tanks for a handful of seconds, which is enough to start over if noone hits the panic mode button.

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It's very specific. As in, really specific. Melusine. A single boss, who shouldn't deal a critical damage and would require the full attention of at least one of the healers - so it's slowing down the tank's recovery. And even then, it's not like a monk wouldn't be able to survive a little more, with his Second Wind/Mantra and Fists of the Earth (skills which are either unique or stronger with this job - and there are still others like Featherfoot), you know - so not even in that are dragoons more "tanky" than others. It depends more on the healers rather than the unfortunate 'off-tank', the dragoon itself doesn't help at all.

Ninjas can be unforgiving too compared to drg too. If u f up on jutsu dont maintain your haste its a huge dps lost. And due to how it is now mhdras being so sluggish and even laggy at times or unresponsive mudras u can easily f up and loose out on 2+k damage. If u dont have haste on its even worst. Also ninstakes lots of skills to play people may say o its just a few combination but it isnt. I use other jtsus for diff situation. Heavy thrust works same way as applying hyuton aka haste. And again if u fuck up u gotta wait. All in all it all depends on how well the player is. The class isnt op its just there are alot more bad players then a good player. Im sorry but its the truth.

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Originally Posted by Davkis

Ninjas can be unforgiving too compared to drg too. If u f up on jutsu dont maintain your haste its a huge dps lost. And due to how it is now mhdras being so sluggish and even laggy at times or unresponsive mudras u can easily f up and loose out on 2+k damage. If u dont have haste on its even worst. Also ninstakes lots of skills to play people may say o its just a few combination but it isnt. I use other jtsus for diff situation. Heavy thrust works same way as applying hyuton aka haste. And again if u fuck up u gotta wait. All in all it all depends on how well the player is. The class isnt op its just there are alot more bad players then a good player. Im sorry but its the truth.

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There's a difference between f*ing up a Ninjutsu on you NIN and f*ing up a positional on your DRG. F*ing up a Ninjutsu is most likely the player's fault and fully in your control. F*ing up a positional usually comes from either the tank turning the mob around like he was on dope or from boss mechanics that make him turn around (e.g. Melusine turns around when shooting fireballs, good luck getting your HT or ID in at that moment), both of which are not under the control of the DRG himself.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

There's a difference between f*ing up a Ninjutsu on you NIN and f*ing up a positional on your DRG. F*ing up a Ninjutsu is most likely the player's fault and fully in your control. F*ing up a positional usually comes from either the tank turning the mob around like he was on dope or from boss mechanics that make him turn around (e.g. Melusine turns around when shooting fireballs, good luck getting your HT or ID in at that moment), both of which are not under the control of the DRG himself.

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Any good DRG can "juke" the positional requirement by factoring latency and anticipating the boss turning. If you miss heavy thrust it's your own fault.

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Originally Posted by Verus

Any good DRG can "juke" the positional requirement by factoring latency and anticipating the boss turning. If you miss heavy thrust it's your own fault.

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Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

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Originally Posted by Verus

Any good DRG can "juke" the positional requirement by factoring latency and anticipating the boss turning. If you miss heavy thrust it's your own fault.

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Please, just stop.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

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-You can predict that
-It's someone's fault, but you can be watching hate meters too.
-You're worried about DPS at this point?
-"unpredictable" lol