Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

....or any part of the MSQ that even hints that going on a big game hunt might have been in the cards as part of the rites?

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Replaced with tacos, rubber bullets, and alpaca saddles. lol. LMAO even

https://x.com/umadori0726/status/183...aqahUM5IiSvciA

So they says, you can just let 'HER' solo the last boss trial.

WoL is officially Wuk of Lamat now

With the subject of Valigarmanda coming up, I've been thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion of it being *the* single laziest and most phoned-in MSQ trial in all of 14 in set up and execution. To explain that, let's first have a quick look at every single MSQ trial in the game.

Ifrit : Summoned to basically eat you as a sacrifice. Arena is just the desert.

Titan : Summoned to defend the kobolds, arena is a bit weird in that it's a large stone circle, but the location at least makes sense in that it deep in Kobold territory.

Garuda : Summoned by the Ixal to I believe attack the garleans? Or step on you - regardless, to defend an area. Fought in Ixal territory in the middle of a whirlwind.

Mr. Ritalin : Arena is just a normal cliffside. Fighting to protect a generator, if I remember right. Just a guy in armor. Obviously won't back down.

Ultima Weapon : Piloted to specifically defeat you, fought in a Garlean base.

Narbiales : One of the most asspully locations, fought somewhere through a dimensional rift, but the fight makes sense - he kidnapped Minfilia and wants to kill you.

Greg : It's Greg and he's on a big bridge.

King Mog : Fought in the forest, summoned because the moogles have grown worried and paranoid.

Leviathan : Summoned to defend Sahagin territory, there is specifically a whole plot point about constructing a ship that can pursue him while you fight the Primal, while being resilient to just being sunk.

Ramuh : Fought atop of a big tree, specifically wants to test your might and mettle.

Shiva : Fought on the ruins of an apmhitheatre, she's cornered and wants to fight for Ishgard.

Ravana : Summoned to defend Vath territory, fights in you their hive and because he really, really likes to fight honorably. Bugbro.

Bismark : It's a giant dumb flying whale that eat islands - there is a whole plotpoint ab out creating a lure for it ,and you fight atop of a floating island being tugged around by the Enterprise, so it makes sense why it can't just run off.

Thordan : Fought in just an Allagan facility, wants to kill you to become Captain King.

Nidhogg : Fights you on the steps of faith, consumed by revenge and wants to murder you and everyone.

Susano : Fights you underwater in Kojin territory, summoned to defend the Kojin. Also just likes fun and fights anyway.

Lakshimi : Forgot she existed, if I'm going to be blunt, but it's the same story as all the primals at this point. Fought atop of a summoned arena that is admittedly one of the oddest.

Shinryu : Mr. Fight Autism himself. Fought atop of the menageria and later brings you to the skies -which, while being a bit odd, I can excuse him making an arena to fight you on.

Tsukoyomi : Fought in a Garlean base, insane with revenge and has a deathwish anyway.

Titania : Fought in a castle, is also insane and needs to be put down.

Innocence : Fought atop of his palace in Mt Gulg, with a infamous series of quests that detailsl and explains how you can even get there.

Hades : Fought in a reconstruction of Aumarot, obviously needs to kill you for the Rejoining.

Warrior of Light : Fought atop of the crystal tower, also *needs* to kill you.

Zodiark : Fought in the moon's core, the arena admittedly makes no sense in existing, but the fight makes enough sense. Fandango is insane and wants to break out of it, and you're trying to stop him.

Hydaelin : Fought in the aetherial sea, wants to fight you so you can prove yourself.

Endsinger : Fought atop of Shinryu, because it was very specifically using it's flying ability to play keep away and blast all your buddies. Can't run away from you due to it.

Golbez : The fight makes sense, wants to kill you, but the Arena is one of the worst, as it is just random C U B E

Zeromus : Fought in the Core of the red moon, is an insane creature that won't stop fighting.

So, that was a massive list, but to outline something specific. For the most part, the fight makes *Sense*, it makes sense why the enemy cannot just run away, and the arena is almost always justified in some way. So now let's look at Valigarmanda.

It is SPECIFICALLY stated as a very clever creature. It specifically can fly very fast and anywhere. We chase it (on foot), catch up to it because it's "regaining it's energies in a mountain chain rich in Ether" - which, fine. Makes enough sense at least. What doesn't make sense is that the arena is a rectangular shaped mountain peak with literally no visible way to get in - there's no scene of the party running past a bridge and the bridge being destroyed, or flying in some way to get there, or anything. It's just a conveniently shaped, tiny arena in the middle of the peaks that makes no sense but is meant to be an actual location, rather than a summoned location.

That's already very lazy, but then there's the fact that Valigarmanda...has no reason to fight you. At all. It is a beast, sure, but it is a clever beast, and it can fly. And quite literally NONE of you can fly, have made preparations to stop it from flying like harpoons, or anything of the sorts. There is genuinely nothing stopping it from reaching 50% HP, going "aight, no, I'm done" and flying off.

And the thing is - that's suspension of disbelief, and many fights have that issue too. I'm happy to suspend my disbelief in why an enemy hasn't just decided to run away for the most part as "Well, we're blocking the way, so even if Zodiark is massive and could just bulldoze through us, whatever, it's enuogh of an excuse" ,or "We have harpoons, if Bismark tries to run, we can chain it back over". - the fight genuinely makes no sense.

It's the equivalent of playing D&D, of the DM tossing an ancient red dragon your way - a very cruel but very SMART creature, having it land to fight you in melee, and as it starts to get it's ass kicked, it just...keeps fighting, instead of flying away to try to save itself or hide in it's hoard. It is so absurdly lazy and nonsensical.

Yea Wuk Lamat doing a super LB2 to finish off the final boss in the story did not feel great. If you were watching a movie it would be fine. But this is a video game where we are the main character. Wuk Lamat's spotlight in DT makes Lyse spotlight in SB look like a joke.

Man I was so excited when her story arc was done and we could continue with Erenville, cause she was doing my head in learning nothing from her siblings. If we'd been with Koana she'd not even had a single shot she had the largest entourage with the smartest and strongest people (Urianger and Thancred being excused from this list for Dawntrail, Y'shtola and G'raha staying at home and Estinien going on his own adventure... wish I could've joined him instead). We'd have had Koana on the dawnthrone within half the story.

And I get that the message is that you gotta get to know people to understand them, but by Hydaelyn it was being shoved so hard.

and after my way too short break with Erenville, she showed back up again. All the Sphene's did my head in. Her showing up at the very end for another Sphene made me genuinely mad.

I'm pretty disappointed in Yoshida. Everytime there's been a controversy, he's either chosen to stay silent and it seems the dev team reels it back, or he'll comment on it either explaining why they're doing what they're doing or apologize and explain how they're going to fix it.

What a stark contrast to the stubborn and totally out of touch Yoshida of today. I would understand / read between the lines if he just stayed quiet, but the comments I'm seeing now are really frustrating. Comments like, Oh yeah we knew people weren't going to like it, but it's the start of a new adventure so we're happy with the pacing - is so insulting to every foundation he has built so far. You know what other game companies willfully and knowingly made games they knew their fans wouldn't like? Most of the game studios that are closed today. Pretty crazy how many game studios are shutting down and Yoshi + team feel their best solution is to just double down.

He once commented on the developers of WoW, questioning if they play their game because of the disconnect - well I think we can safely assume who's playing and not playing their games anymore with the incredible disconnect that is every response from the SE team. Shameful.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

if I could rewind time, I'd pluck Emet out of the aetherial sea and ask him what the hell?

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If I could rewind time I'd literally let myself just lose and him win, because surely our life as the most powerful Sin Eater Ever is more glorious than dealing with Wuk Lamat.

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

https://x.com/umadori0726/status/183...aqahUM5IiSvciA

So they says, you can just let 'HER' solo the last boss trial.

WoL is officially Wuk of Lamat now

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Not too surprising when they were already making quite a few solo duties even on the default difficulty winnable by just letting the NPCs take care of it.

For all the improvement to dungeon and trial mechanic designs they keep finding ways to make the MSQ more of a leisure stroll with no challenge.

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Originally Posted by MoiraTerrwell

If I could rewind time I'd literally let myself just lose and him win, because surely our life as the most powerful Sin Eater Ever is more glorious than dealing with Wuk Lamat.

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“If you had the strength to take another step, could you do it? Could you save our worlds?”

Standing is the band end, bro. Trust me.

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

https://x.com/umadori0726/status/183...aqahUM5IiSvciA

So they says, you can just let 'HER' solo the last boss trial.

WoL is officially Wuk of Lamat now

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It was actually funny watching the video on twitter. Wuk Lamat's massive LB always deals 50% of Queen Eternal's current HP, and then she just does small chip damage every few seconds. So if you technically did stand around for 5-10 minutes during that all then yeah, Wuk Lamat can solo the last part of the trial. It's both funny and sad at the same time that they put the victory lap phase at the 30% HP mark because they REALLY wanted to make sure Wuk Lamat got her moment.

Wow, Wuk Lamat really is like those Warriors that keep fighting the dungeon boss after the rest of the party died, slowly chipping away but unable to be killed, as everyone else has to sit there and watch the solo show for the next 5-10 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfqTCbHtlmk

ladies and gentlemen i present to you the ultimate mod.

>Both the Chosen One and the Second Coming of Super Special Guy

>Friendship is their literal superpower

>Feels bad for mass murderers and accepts one as an ally

>Notoriously useless in many cutscenes

>Not Wuk Lamat so they don't get a massive thread about how they're the worst thing to happen to this game since 1.0

https://64.media.tumblr.com/bfb0dbc6...22168bf4b5.png

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Originally Posted by StormChase

>Both the Chosen One and the Second Coming of Super Special Guy

>Friendship is their literal superpower

>Feels bad for mass murderers and accepts one as an ally

>Notoriously useless in many cutscenes

>Not Wuk Lamat so they don\\'t get a massive thread about how they\\'re the worst thing to happen to this game since 1.0

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https://i.imgur.com/lxNcpJ9.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Drimn

I think everyone criticizing Sena needs a little perspective is all. They asked the VA to play an incompetent, loudmouthed narcissist that spends all expac failing upwards and using others to her own ends, all while surrounded by a team of fawning sycophants telling her she's the best thing ever, and us, the player/WoL, being dragged along for the ride and shamed whenever we go to criticize her. The casting was perfect when you look at it like that.

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You mean they asked the VA to just be herself. Bwehehe.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

https://i.imgur.com/lxNcpJ9.jpeg

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Okay, you want something serious?

Every time an expansion has noticeable problems with the writing you guys find a way to blame it on a single character. And after Square Enix's been pressured into making that character irrelevant, the same problems inevitably resurface because it turns out it wasn't the character's fault. So you find a different character to blame it on. Rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Windfire

She replaces Lyse as my most hated character (living), which I suppose is a feat in itself. I probably wouldn't have hated her so quickly if the game wasn't "You sure you want to help?, SIKE! You only get affirming dialogue choices!".

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This comment demonstrates it best. You've all moved from one punching bag to the other now that the former isn't as fun to tear apart anymore. How many of you genuinely believe Wuk Lamat's the biggest problem and aren't just bandwagoning because it's popular right now? The most offensive thing she does is be a mini-WOL in a rushed storyline.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Okay, you want something serious?

Every time an expansion has noticeable problems with the writing you guys find a way to blame it on a single character. And after Square Enix's been pressured into making that character irrelevant, the same problems inevitably resurface because it turns out it wasn't the character's fault. So you find a different character to blame it on. Rinse and repeat.

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This right here. Its not Wuk Lamats character that is the problem, its the writing that makes almost every character in this expansion unbearable. Wuk Lamat is as much a victim of the writing as Krile or the Leveilleur twins. The only difference is that the writing uses too much time to shove everything else in the background to make room for Wuk Lamat, which has created a lot of resentment for the character itself as she feels omnipresent.

Finished this crap story...decided not to skip Krile reuniting with her parents arc...

Holy shite I wanted to strangle Wuk though the screen! Just cause suddenly all attention is not on her its ":( I can't watch this! so annoying!" "Sounds like a pain in the ass..." bitch! let the woman reconnect with her dead parents and learn about where she came
from! then her getting mad at G'raha for helping Krile break the ice, THEN suddenly being all "Gee now I'M hungry!" Good god woman... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGKAmF9Oi4E

And the fact that even the FINAL BOSS can be beat by doing nothing but dodge once Blackhole Mary Sue comes in? how pathetic. Such things should not be possible but I guess since so called AAA games are all baby game easy now as to not hurt the feels of the tourists (the tourists that cry about the souls games being "too hard") I guess its "normal"

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Originally Posted by ovIm

This right here. Its not Wuk Lamats character that is the problem, its the writing that makes almost every character in this expansion unbearable. Wuk Lamat is as much a victim of the writing as Krile or the Leveilleur twins. The only difference is that the writing uses too much time to shove everything else in the background to make room for Wuk Lamat, which has created a lot of resentment for the character itself as she feels omnipresent.

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The most hypocritical part of it for me is that almost everything Wuk Lamat is hated for, the WOL also does at some point.

"She's too strong." - Self-explanatory

"She relies on other people for help." - There are numerous times the WOL would've died without help from other people. Plus they have a magic crystal that lets them summon a full party whenever they want.

"She gets tricked and taken advantage of." - Lahabrea, the Crystal Braves, that barmaid who spikes their drink, Urianger and the Crystal Exarch, the fact they let Wuk Lamat go off with a stranger and don't press Sphene, etc.

"She tries negotiating with people who hate her." - Asahi, Varis, Emet-Selch, the Forum, the entire Garlemald section of Endwalker

"She feels bad for Sphene." - The game forces the WOL to feel bad for the Ascians and accept the fact Gaius gets to walk free as an ally now.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

How many of you genuinely believe Wuk Lamat's the biggest problem and aren't just bandwagoning because it's popular right now?

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Sure, in one case this might be true. We're coming from deep and complex expansions like Shadowbringers and Endwalker, so I was excited to explore new places. But I wasn’t prepared for Wuk Lamat to overstay after her chapter closed. She got the throne, great—now go rule. After we get a brief moment to enjoy the environment with Erenville, she’s back, taking all the attention.

Here’s how I see it:
In ARR, we learned about the world. After dealing with the Garleans, Teledji Adeledji frames us for Nanamo's poisoning, shaking things up. In Heavensward, we traveled with Estinien, Alphinaud, and Ysayle—each of us contributing in discovering what was happening. Stormblood didn't hit right with Lyse, especially if you didn’t start in the Twelveswood. Yda hadn’t really grown on me, making Lyse’s journey feel underdeveloped, though she probably would’ve ended up the same without us. Shadowbringers and Endwalker were stellar, with captivating characters like Tesleen, G'raha, Emet-Selch, Venat, and Hermes.

Then comes Dawntrail. We meet Wuk Lamat, who asks for our help, and we learn about her opponents—Zoraal Ja, who clearly shouldn’t succeed, and Bakool Ja Ja. Koana seems the only decent one among them.

Wuk Lamat’s approach doesn’t change throughout. She faces the same challenges as her opponents, but it feels like she always succeeds without much effort. She goes places, talks to people, and everything she learns becomes the best solution every time. Meanwhile, we—the Warrior of Light who just saved the world—never get to team up with anyone else but her. Alphinaud is sidelined, Estinien’s off on his own, Krile’s present but doesn’t contribute much, and Erenville is the tour guide.

We could have learned more about Krile or done more with Erenville (don’t get me started on Cahciua—she was unnecessarily mean). Koana shows up, disappears, then we meet him again, learning he’s smart but has a sister complex. We learn a little about Bakool Ja Ja, but barely anything about Zoraal Ja. There’s so much more to explore with him—maybe he wasn’t born of Gulool Ja Ja, maybe he lacked attention—so many possibilities.

Wuk Lamat is loud, and her weaknesses barely get addressed. She’s motion-sick but, after admitting it, suddenly seems fine. Where Zoraal Ja, Bakool Ja Ja, and Koana have distinct strengths (fighting, confidence, intelligence), Wuk Lamat’s strength is in her love and compassion. If I wanted Disney, I’d go for Disney—I didn’t expect this in FFXIV. Her winning felt unearned. If we backed Koana, she wouldn’t have stood a chance. Even after her victory, she sticks around, overstaying her welcome.


- Yeeted through AI for less characters and more comprehensiveness

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Originally Posted by ovIm

This right here. Its not Wuk Lamats character that is the problem, its the writing that makes almost every character in this expansion unbearable. Wuk Lamat is as much a victim of the writing as Krile or the Leveilleur twins. The only difference is that the writing uses too much time to shove everything else in the background to make room for Wuk Lamat, which has created a lot of resentment for the character itself as she feels omnipresent.

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Pretty much this. Wuk Lamat being a Mary Sue is a symptom of bad writing, not a cause. She had nothing to do with:

1. the hanuhanu not knowing their own cultural rites despite practicing it yearly
2. the pelupelu rite happening offscreen while we just chill out camping
3. moblins not knowing basic commodities and hygiene
4. Thancred and Urianger appearing as rivals and then...nothing. Back to being allies over and over
5. letting Wuk Lamat go back to town alone, surely nothing bad could happen
6. Valigarmanda being a glorified hunt target (narratively, not the fight itself)
7. Gulool ja ja neglecting Mamook for 80 years despite being a blessed sibling himself
8. Bakool ja ja commiting several acts ranging from cheating to what would be considered a war crime with zero accountability
9. cooking competition as if nothing happened (does Gulool even know what Bakool did???)
10. cooking competition basically contradicting what was previously established with how the rite of succession works
11. Bakool ja ja (again) having an unearned rushed redemption after we learn his tragic backstoryTM
12. Zoraal ja's daddy issues and extreme golden child syndrome thrown in last second to make him less a plot device and more a character for more tragic backstoryTM brownie points
13. Zoraal ja being a "we have Zenos at home"
14. Ketamine pulling an Y'shtola fakeout death on us
15. the WoL and Erenville forgetting what linkpearls are as they watch an alien spaceship very slowly fly toward Tuliyolall
16. Zoraal ja spending 30 years in Alexandria honing his skills, yet he still lost to his old, literally half dead dad
17. the whole gang watching Zoraal ja's evil monologue as he unalives his dad and walk away scotch free (bonus points: ALISAIE of all people stops us from going after him)
18. playing Smile as we build a bomb. (but we're building it with the power of friendship so it counts...I guess?)
19. the army Zoraal ja spent 30 years building decimated by cowboys with rubber bullets and Dragon ex machina (this one was cool tho)
20. that f***ing baby
21. Krile getting 5% screentime, when the whole B plot is indirectly about her
22. that f***ing baby stealing what little spotlight Krile had
23. the Scions basically just existing as trust companions, pretend they're not even there
24. the entirety of Living Memory

There's probably more but that's what I came up with off the top of my head. Now add every moment Wuk Lamat is involved on top of it and we can see why most people are unhappy with the MSQ. Heck, I like Wuk, and at first I genuinely thought "ohh it's just me being nitpicky, let's see how it goes" but the more I played, the more I questioned things, and at some point I acknowledged it wasn't me, it was the writing.

Endwalker was already showing glimpses of this horrid pacing. Zenos hovering and doing nothing. Labyrinthos being a throwaway filler zone, I forgave the rush and pacing cause I thought they were excited to show us the new arc. So they spammed two expacs into one. Think they even said that.

But this is the result of the rush? Another rushed and slowed at the same time product? But this time halfbaked. They rushed EW for this?? I am 100% sure some C to D back up team is working on Dawntrail and soon Square Enix is announcing 2-3 games

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Originally Posted by StormChase

How many of you genuinely believe Wuk Lamat's the biggest problem and aren't just bandwagoning because it's popular right now?

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I hated Wuk Lamat before I even went to the forums here to vent.

But even if you cut out Wuk Lamat, the story has a shitload of other problems:

- Krile being sidelined for the most part and the single scene she got? The one eating ice with her parents? There has been 20 years of stuff to talk about, where was absolutely no reason for the awkward silence, I feel the writers actually hate Krile for some reason.

- Bakool Jaja not being executed for domestic terrorism (releasing Valigarmanda) or kidnapping a fucking keystone keeper.

- Ketenramm being the, by far, the most useless and irrelevant character in fiction, it's not even funny.

Am I still on a "bandwagon" or did I make my point?

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

I hated Wuk Lamat before I even went to the forums here to vent.

But even if you cut out Wuk Lamat, the story has a shitload of other problems:

- Krile being sidelined for the most part and the single scene she got? The one eating ice with her parents? There has been 20 years of stuff to talk about, where was absolutely no reason for the awkward silence, I feel the writers actually hate Krile for some reason.

- Bakool Jaja not being executed for domestic terrorism (releasing Valigarmanda) or kidnapping a fucking keystone keeper.

- Ketenramm being the, by far, the most useless and irrelevant character in fiction, it's not even funny.

Am I still on a "bandwagon" or did I make my point?

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So you agree? She isn't "single-handedly ruining the DT story"?

Wuk lamat is the punching bag but honestly.. it deserves it

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Originally Posted by StormChase

So you agree? She isn't "single-handedly ruining the DT story"?

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Bro, what are you talking about?
She's 99% of the shit-cake.
Stop defending this horrible mess of a story like everyone else is just to dumb to understand.

The questions we raise about the story are 99% rhetorical, we KNOW the answer is almost always "because the writers are absolute talentless amateurs".

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

Bro, what are you talking about?
She's 99% of the shit-cake.
Stop defending this horrible mess of a story like everyone else is just to dumb to understand.

The questions we raise about the story are 99% rhetorical, we KNOW the answer is almost always "because the writers are absolute talentless amateurs".

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He's trying to argue the thread title almost 300 pages in.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

Bro, what are you talking about?
She's 99% of the shit-cake.
Stop defending this horrible mess of a story like everyone else is just to dumb to understand.

The questions we raise about the story are 99% rhetorical, we KNOW the answer is almost always "because the writers are absolute talentless amateurs".

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If that were true almost all of the problems would evaporate if she weren't there. But you admitted there's a shitload of other problems. So which is it?

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Originally Posted by StormChase

If that were true almost all of the problems would evaporate if she weren't there. But you admitted there's a shitload of other problems. So which is it?

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I'm so sick and tired of msq-defenders arguing what is by all accounts the worst written, non-sensical, plothole-ridden story in the last decades.
There has been countless threads, reddit-posts, video-essays, which go into every possible detail of what is wrong with Dawntrail.

You people use every form of bad faith arguments, deflections etc.

And now you pretend that you don't know what 'hyperbole' is, otherwise you wouldn't harp on my "Wuk Lamat is 99% of the problem".

The story is 100% garbage and I'm not gonna argue exact percentages with you, what the fuck.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

I'm so sick and tired of msq-defenders arguing what is by all accounts the worst written, non-sensical, plothole-ridden story in the last decades.
There has been countless threads, reddit-posts, video-essays, which go into every possible detail of what is wrong with Dawntrail.

You people use every form of bad faith arguments, deflections etc.

And now you pretend that you don't know what 'hyperbole' is, otherwise you wouldn't harp on my "Wuk Lamat is 99% of the problem".

The story is 100% garbage and I'm not gonna argue exact percentages with you, what the fuck.

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I'm not saying there aren't any problems. There definitely are. I'm saying you're looking at the wrong thing as the source of the problems.

And it doesn't matter if you think she's responsible for 99% or 75% or whatever. Either you think she's the main source or you don't. So which is it?

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Originally Posted by StormChase

I'm not saying there aren't. There definitely are. I'm saying you're looking at the wrong thing as the source of the problems.

And it doesn't matter if it's 99% or 75% or whatever. Either you think she's the main source or you don't. So which is it?

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I'd rather collect shit with Erenville than spend a second around Wuk Lamat and I actually hate that god damn disgusting trope with burning passion.
Personally I felt like I could finally breathe when I got to Shaaloani. I think Wuk Lamat as a character and the whole rite of succession is total meaningless garbage. I would've rather had a competent guide to actually show me around rather than babysit an actual middleschool goof ball who is 'learning about her people' and all her personality revolves around 'peace, hungry, I'm gonna throw up oh nyooo'.

Everyone is bending over for her even the scions and even the WoL. Sorry, but I don't want to be a decoration in Wuk Lamat's story. It's not even a compelling story. It's a tedious and boring one where she gets to harp about peace and happiness and I get to hold her things for her.

I'm not sure what your end goal here is, are you trying to have a 'gotcha' moment on someone? If Wuk Lamat gets removed from the story the rite of succession goes with her, and if not then we might help Koana who honestly feels alot more 'human' than Wuk Lamat who feels like an exaggerated trope.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I'd rather collect shit with Erenville than spend a second around Wuk Lamat and I actually hate that god damn disgusting trope with burning passion.
Personally I felt like I could finally breathe when I got to Shaaloani. I think Wuk Lamat as a character and the whole rite of succession is total meaningless garbage. I would've rather had a competent guide to actually show me around rather than babysit an actual middleschool goof ball who is 'learning about her people' and all her personality revolves around 'peace, hungry, I'm gonna throw up oh nyooo'.

Everyone is bending over for her even the scions and even the WoL. Sorry, but I don't want to be a decoration in Wuk Lamat's story. It's not even a compelling story. It's a tedious and boring one where she gets to harp about peace and happiness and I get to hold her things for her.

I'm not sure what your end goal here is, are you trying to have a 'gotcha' moment on someone? If Wuk Lamat gets removed from the story the rite of succession goes with her, and if not then we might help Koana who honestly feels alot more 'human' than Wuk Lamat who feels like an exaggerated trope.

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So you would say she forces you to pay attention to her?

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Pretty much this. Wuk Lamat being a Mary Sue is a symptom of bad writing, not a cause. She had nothing to do with:

1. the hanuhanu not knowing their own cultural rites despite practicing it yearly
2. the pelupelu rite happening offscreen while we just chill out camping
3. moblins not knowing basic commodities and hygiene
4. Thancred and Urianger appearing as rivals and then...nothing. Back to being allies over and over
5. letting Wuk Lamat go back to town alone, surely nothing bad could happen
6. Valigarmanda being a glorified hunt target (narratively, not the fight itself)
7. Gulool ja ja neglecting Mamook for 80 years despite being a blessed sibling himself
8. Bakool ja ja commiting several acts ranging from cheating to what would be considered a war crime with zero accountability
9. cooking competition as if nothing happened (does Gulool even know what Bakool did???)
10. cooking competition basically contradicting what was previously established with how the rite of succession works
11. Bakool ja ja (again) having an unearned rushed redemption after we learn his tragic backstoryTM
12. Zoraal ja's daddy issues and extreme golden child syndrome thrown in last second to make him less a plot device and more a character for more tragic backstoryTM brownie points
13. Zoraal ja being a "we have Zenos at home"
14. Ketamine pulling an Y'shtola fakeout death on us
15. the WoL and Erenville forgetting what linkpearls are as they watch an alien spaceship very slowly fly toward Tuliyolall
16. the whole gang watching Zoraal ja's evil monologue as he unalives his dad and walk away scotch free
17. playing Smile as we build a bomb. (but we're building it with the power of friendship so it counts...I guess?)
18. the army Zoraal ja spent 30 years building decimated by cowboys with rubber bullets and Dragon ex machina (this one was cool tho)
19. that f***ing baby
20. Krile getting 5% screentime, when the whole B plot is indirectly about her
21. that f***ing baby stealing what little spotlight Krile had
22. the Scions basically just existing as trust companions, pretend they're not even there
23. the entirety of Living Memory

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1. This wouldve been an easy fix, having them fool us and throwing some "we didnt tell the younger ones as we knew 3 years in advance and you had to figure it out" line, its just sad.
2. Solo duty with their beloved Wuk?? Battle against the others that wanted to sabotage her?
3. Sure cause they only work with humans since 80sh years lol Same as #1
4. Thancred and Urianger shouldve been the middle boss during the dungeon. you know, that dungeon we do only for taking just as long as Ehrenvile took to fix our ship >_>
5. Wuk gettin kidnapped, us not reaching her faster... ffs just poison our dinner and have her taken in the morning...
6. Valigarmanda IS the same as their hunts, just the most powerfull one (so far) and was starved for 80ish years, it wasnt pretty but ill give them a pass - though there were 0 consequences...
7. Gulool ja ja neglecting Mamook was an insult, especially with all his "love and family and unity" stuff, true...
8. Bakool ja ja's crimes were just too much, should never been accepted into the rite...
9. cooking competition was also cheap, we get Koana so the least possible tension...
10. at that point ive almost forgotten the rite lol But there at least they were prepared to make it hard and didnt "just forget" their favorite food lol
11. I can live with his redemption, but it was way too sudden, again, lazy writing...
12. Zoraal ja's daddy issues were so out of the blue, he was praised, everyone loves him, looks up, hes his general. Almost equal in strength... and dont tell me he wasnt loved lol If he were weak, ok, but come on...
13. Yeah he went from "People shall know PAIN!" to "lets feed on EVERYONES SOUL" pretty fast. remember he had 30 years... but still was a edgy child with daddy issues...
14. To me no one is dead until i see an corpse lol
15. the whole attack was a joke. They did better on Rhalgas Reach when Zenos hit it...
16. yeah at least let him create a barrier or have someone take Wuk/koana as hostage, have him win but then almost beaten by us. so he leaves angrily...
17. Smile was so...wrong, its not even a bad song but yeah...
18. Dragon ex machina is epic xD But yeah, 30 YEARS with nearly infinite machines and all... I get it, they needed souls so just nuking us was out of question lol
19. that f***ing baby ...we have still 0 clue? Mother? Clone? do they.. just lay eggs?
20. Krile just hurt... it was HER part and we spent... 5 min? Sure some "no we cant do this, my parents!!" stuff would be unfitting for her but still...
21. Yeah the very few times others had their moments, they got taken...
22. Estinien was the worst... like the twins shouldve stayed for a while with the King - you know to learn what they came for lol
23. the Memory... idk, kinda weird, felt like its against everything we learned...

And it feels like we just wasted 1/4th of the whole planet for this...

Wuk Lamat isn't the only problem with Dawntrail. I think any reasonable person can agree on that. But she is the most obvious and noticeable problem with the story, and so that is why she draws so much ire. She takes up FAR more screen time and has more than twice the number of words spoken in lines than the next wordiest character (who happens to be Sphene, another wretched character who I grew to hate the longer she was on screen).

She is all encompassing and inescapable. This whole setting and story is riddled with stupid moments and bizarre writing choices, but when there's one character front and center for all of it, is it any wonder that she is so despised?

And yes, I also see Wuk Lamat's character as a victim of bad writing, not as an inherently bad character concept. She did not need to be this way. I never had the problems with Lyse some people had and thought she got way more flack than necessary (and yeah, some of it just smelled like sexism). I'm sure Wuk Lamat would always have some detractors in a theoretical "better Dawntrail" timeline, just for being a prominent female character with spunky anime protag energy, but nothing like this. I always stress in threads and topics like this that I liked Wuk Lamat when she was first introduced. Hell, I was even pretty patient with the story through the whole first half, even the stupid moments, because I thought it was building toward something bigger and none of these weird little issues would matter all that much in the long run. But by the time I got to Heritage Found and met Sphene, I realized this was it, this was just Wuk Lamat's Magic Friendship Adventures, and it would never be anything else.

I'm just gonna interject with something I posted elsewhere that's apropos to the conversation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

I hate Wuk Lamat. There's nothing redeeming about her, but she's not the problem. She's a symptom of the problem; bad writing. It's not Wuk that ruins the legacy, it's the piss poor writing that came off the back of ShB and EW. You can get rid of Wuk, but it won't matter if the writing behind everything is still dogwater.

Ironically, I actually think Wuk could be saved, but a competent writer that cares about the story, lore, and understands how to write characters needs to be at the helm. In a way, she reminds me of Ahsoka Tano. Everyone hated Ahsoka when the Clone Wars movie was released, but she slowly grew on everyone as her character was developed to becoming a fan favorite. But that appeal was earned, and was the result of a mostly planned arc Ahsoka went through.

Hiroi needs to be let go or tossed back into the sidequest rubber room where he can't do anymore serious damage and we need someone like Ishikawa guiding the story and characters.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by StormChase

I'm not saying there aren't any problems. There definitely are. I'm saying you're looking at the wrong thing as the source of the problems.

And it doesn't matter if you think she's responsible for 99% or 75% or whatever. Either you think she's the main source or you don't. So which is it?

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https://i.imgflip.com/3slkto.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

https://i.imgflip.com/3slkto.jpg

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Nice avoiding the question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StormChase

I'm not saying there aren't any problems. There definitely are. I'm saying you're looking at the wrong thing as the source of the problems.

And it doesn't matter if you think she's responsible for 99% or 75% or whatever. Either you think she's the main source or you don't. So which is it?

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if correcting 1 single shit could potentially make the whole things at least to 'acceptable' level then. YES, that's the frikking main source of problems.