What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I think the sentiments about Venat are relatively common but a lot of people don't feel as though it's a make or break thing, myself included. It's not impossible to like her a lot and think her actions were genocidal; just look at how much people liked Emet even before EW (although I personally like a lot of characters much more than her).

Even to those people, I imagine the tonal clash is enough to warrant further clarification.

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The difference between the two is Emet did everything he did for his people. Venat did the opposite, she did what she did because she lost hope in her people. Honestly i think a lot of the popularity surrounding her just revolves around her being a “waifu.” It would follow the trend for what Yshtola’s popularity used to be.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Nah, Venat is still a very, very popular character in Japan, too. Again, there were two 2ch-based polls of "favorite Endwalker NPC" that were commonly cited before Famitsu's own poll--and Venat scored #3, and then #2, below Emet. Even in Famitsu, Endwalker was voted in as "favorite expansion." There are people who have criticisms and feel very strongly about them, same as here, of course. But it's probably best to not fall into the trap of "I bet those other people whose feedback I don't have direct access to hate it, though." Not that I don't understand, and not that Yoshi's attitude in the Q&A regarding her wasn't pretty curious.

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All I said was "I think that there must be more debate happening in Japan" because if Yoshi-P is only going by Reddit, Twitter, and streamers (their most often cited sources of feedback) there's no reason to believe everyone doesn't adore Venat which, yes, would make his response to the sundering question quite odd. Why would he need to defend a widely beloved character?

I've said before, Venat was likeable until the end of Elpis and I know in Japan she's voiced by a popular actress as well. The phrasing of that particular question in the LL was the sundering being necessary. It's possible they like Venat, but didn't like her actions. Most Emet fans don't like the rejoinings, but they like him.

As far as EW goes, even if I didn't hate Venat it still wouldn't rank above HW or ShB for me. I liked Garlemald and I liked Elpis, but the rest of it was kind of meh. Personally, I think Elpis carried EW hard, which is evidenced in the character polls. Were it not for the sour taste it left in my mouth, I might rank it higher just because questing with my two favorite characters in "the world unsundered" including a trust was pretty damn awesome.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The difference between the two is Emet did everything he did for his people. Venat did the opposite, she did what she did because she lost hope in her people. Honestly i think a lot of the popularity surrounding her just revolves around her being a “waifu.” It would follow the trend for what Yshtola’s popularity used to be.

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Venat also did it all for a bunch of creatures and/or people we never saw, met, or get any details on. They're really not that different. The only difference is that the writers knew what they were going for with Emet and got mostly what I assume to be the intended reaction, and we were actually shown why his people were so important to him. Meanwhile, Venat's believably in her motives and moral standing is a lot more questionable because we either lack details or have contradictory ones.

There's no need to be so dismissive of the reasons people like her.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Venat also did it all for a bunch of creatures and/or people we never saw, met, or get any details on. They're really not that different. The only difference is that the writers knew what they were going for with Emet and got mostly what I assume to be the intended reaction, and we were actually shown why his people were so important to him. Meanwhile, Venat's believably in her motives and moral standing is a lot more questionable because we either lack details or have contradictory ones.

There's no need to be so dismissive of the reasons people like her.

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I’m not really being dismissive, people are free to like her but to compare her to Emet is a pretty big disservice imo. She contradicted her own feelings and the things she preached, and lost hope in her own people and even didn’t entirely trust in her own plan. Meanwhile Emet toiled away for 12k+ years to restore his people, people he loved and were lost. Emet was trying to regain, Venat destroyed it all. I remember someone before saying that if Venat instead of being some waifu goddess was instead some ugly old man, people would think differently about her and i can’t help but think it’s true, especially with the way i’ve seen people talk about her on twitter and reddit(and even here to an extent.) It apparently wasn’t the intended reaction for Emet because even Yoshi P was confused that people believed him and what he told us in ShB.

So, expectations for the LL tomorrow?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I think the error could be forgiven for your regular scholar, who wasn't present through all of what the WoL went through, but in their case specifically, it's a bit more difficult to justify the confusion.

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Oh, yeah, don't ask me to account for the WoL's reaction in that specific scene in Elpis. I got nothing. (I got nothing for a lot of instances of the WoL's reaction, but nevertheless.)

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Originally Posted by Lauront

So, expectations for the LL tomorrow?

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Yoshi-P will say something that doesn't come through in translation very well and will cause a flood of alarmed players posting on the forum.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I've said before, Venat was likeable until the end of Elpis and I know in Japan she's voiced by a popular actress as well. The phrasing of that particular question in the LL was the sundering being necessary. It's possible they like Venat, but didn't like her actions. Most Emet fans don't like the rejoinings, but they like him.

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Yep, I think even the way the question was phrased granted that her intentions were seen as good by the person asking, so it is possible there is some sort of dissatisfaction even in those who like her with what she did. Even I will grant that she was a likeable character throughout Elpis; where she lost me was after Ktisis Hyperboreia.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Oh, yeah, don't ask me to account for the WoL's reaction in that specific scene in Elpis. I got nothing. (I got nothing for a lot of instances of the WoL's reaction, but nevertheless.)

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Ah, being a SMN or SCH in Eden...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

So, expectations for the LL tomorrow?

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We’re gonna get some fluff about thanking all of the super nice npcs that helped us in EW and give them muffins and throw a super kawaii party for them. Then we’re gonna go to sharlayan and have a small tidbit quest where we get to watch Yshtola talk to some of the teachers there and just be absolutely smarter than any of them and have a funny haha moment where they get annoyed with her and she gets super smug. Then we’re gonna get some urgent news about some dragons or garleans and the dungeons will be an early visit to corvos or meracydia and the blasphemy problem will be completely solved with barely a mention. Oh and Graha at some point will start getting all sparkly eyed and worshipping us and Estinien and doing his uwu adorable ear wiggle when he gets excited.

I am slightly concerned about them saying they didn't want to disclose the name of the MSQ dungeon out of fears that it would "raise people's expectations too high".

It kind of sounds it's going be a significant location we're going to end up visiting for not-so significant reasons.

I'm with Kizuya, I think we're just going to get a lot of happy fluff nonsense and I wouldn't be surprised if the "secret" dungeon is just something silly that won't matter for anything.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I think the sentiments about Venat are relatively common but a lot of people don't feel as though it's a make or break thing, myself included. It's not impossible to like her a lot and think her actions were genocidal; just look at how much people liked Emet even before EW (although I personally like a lot of characters much more than her).

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I still think Venat, on her own, could legitimately be a really fun and interesting character; when I'm discussing her without the albatross of "why did the story handle her the way it did?", I actually find myself becoming strangely fond of her and her strange, strange thought processes, absolute self-assurance, and willingness to resort to extreme measures and pile up bodies in the name of her beliefs--to the point that if I had the choice, I probably wouldn't fundamentally change her, honestly. She's sort of fascinating.

The problem has always been the narrative's apologism, insisting we see her as good and benevolent, and therefore narratively minimizing the effects on her victims and the weight of her actions. Which is where we get the actually infuriating stuff, re: "alas, the Ancients were the architects of their own demise because they didn't suffer enough!" (They were murdered by your creator, actually, but, okay.)

If she was just left to be what she is, a painfully self-righteous, clever, and charismatic ideologue with torrents of blood on her hands, it'd be fine. But Hydaelyn has been so wrapped up in being a supportive figure to the WoL, I assume the devs were worried about doing that in fear of leaving a bad taste in players' mouths about being used as a tool in her plans for the past ten years.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We’re gonna get some fluff about thanking all of the super nice npcs that helped us in EW and give them muffins and throw a super kawaii party for them. Then we’re gonna go to sharlayan and have a small tidbit quest where we get to watch Yshtola talk to some of the teachers there and just be absolutely smarter than any of them and have a funny haha moment where they get annoyed with her and she gets super smug. Then we’re gonna get some urgent news about some dragons or garleans and the dungeons will be an early visit to corvos or meracydia and the blasphemy problem will be completely solved with barely a mention. Oh and Graha at some point will start getting all sparkly eyed and worshipping us and Estinien and doing his uwu adorable ear wiggle when he gets excited.

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This describes the likeliest sequence of events for the 6.1 MSQ. Ideally, I would have liked to be introduced to our new main party members this patch in order to replace some of the more stagnant scions. I would have liked to go into 7.0 with a party composed of the spiritual successors to Venat, Hades, and Hythlodaeus and kept as few scions along as possible.

We could have used this interlude leading up to 7.0 to get to know our new cast members in "campfire-after-the-battle" scenes as opposed to slice of life college scenes in Sharlayan. We could visit the now retired scions and check up on them as the world starts showing signs of the next major threat, likely the void or some unforseen side effect of leaving the world bereft of its two main gods.

A priority for the writing would be to ensure that new cast members contrast with each other well through various means, from hair color to personality and homeland. Another important point would be to logically re-establish dominant supernatural forces in the world to contend with later on, which would eventually converge upon the main setting of 7.0 and drive the conflict there.

The interlude should also highlight the most visually distinct of FFXIV's zones, like the Azim Steppe, Dravanian Forelands, and deal with Garlemald in such a way that the country is put on a road to recovery that doesn't end in it becoming another Ishgard/Ala Mhigo-like republic. A new emperor or even empress would be crowned, and even one of the new main party members could be Garlean.

Leading into 7.0 we would go on to a location rich in high fantasy and European aesthetics, for a grounded adventure on the scale of Heavensward. Future antagonists would lean towards "human" and have reasonable motives like Emet-Selch, Ardyn, etc. Direct moralizing would be kept to an absolute minimum, with in-game actions speaking and getting through to people in ways that endless speeches never could.

New character will be introduced in 6.1 and sounds like the scions will be doing their own thing for a while. Though no clear time frame on how long they will be doing it. Famistu article talked about some info Yoshi p passed their way in a interview. Yoshi also pointed out the scions will not be disappearing.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The interlude should also highlight the most visually distinct of FFXIV's zones, like the Azim Steppe, Dravanian Forelands, and deal with Garlemald in such a way that the country is put on a road to recovery that doesn't end in it becoming another Ishgard/Ala Mhigo-like republic. A new emperor or even empress would be crowned, and even one of the new main party members could be Garlean.

Leading into 7.0 we would go on to a location rich in high fantasy and European aesthetics, for a grounded adventure on the scale of Heavensward. Future antagonists would lean towards "human" and have reasonable motives like Emet-Selch, Ardyn, etc. Direct moralizing would be kept to an absolute minimum, with in-game actions speaking and getting through to people in ways that endless speeches never could.

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And what better location for a high fantasy European Aesthetic then Ilsabard. You will certainly not get it with Meracydia or the New World and it is to soon to visit another shard, we just got back and need to explore more of the source. I have talked about three zones they could do for this before but let me do it in more detail.

I mentioned a zone inspired by Germany, Austria and Switzerland (something hinted at existing with the Bergsteiger's and Dirndl's Attires) which visually could play a role similar to 1.0 Ishgard now that it is all frozen with Windmills, rolling green valleys, fields of flowers, distant snowcapped mountains, and a very Studio Ghibli inspired visual Aesthetic.

The Scandinavian inspired zone i mentioned could have fjords, Viking longhouses, snowy forests, Aurora's in the sky at night, etc. For inspiration look to Skyrim, the recent God of War or even the Witcher 3.

The final zone I mentioned was one based off of Romania and they could just go all out with this one. I would put Gothic Garlean architecture inspired by the Royal palace before it was destroyed perhaps intermelled with more traditional Gothic architecture. For inspirations with this zone Obviously look to Castlevania and maybe Bloodbourne as well.

They could also add more Mediterranean inspired zones like maybe Werlyt Proper or the long hinted at Corvos. If they want to mix things up they can even throw in a desert zone ruins of the Caspian Sea in Metro Exodus.

I am not saying these zones should be complete one for one copies of real world cultures and nations but instead should build off of them like Thravnir.

This would also allow further Garlean Development to be salvaged after their expansion got gutted to rush the finale.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The difference between the two is Emet did everything he did for his people. Venat did the opposite, she did what she did because she lost hope in her people. Honestly i think a lot of the popularity surrounding her just revolves around her being a “waifu.” It would follow the trend for what Yshtola’s popularity used to be.

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As I said a while back, I genuinely liked Venat as a character -- she was cool, she was charismatic, and she was interesting to talk to. Her looking gorgeous in that outfit as Hydaelyn certainly didn't hurt, but that definitely wouldn't have saved her if I didn't have other reasons to like her. I don't hate her for what she did, either -- I hate the story for making it the "correct" choice. Venat was objectively right, based on the principles of how the story's universe works. However, if she brought that crappy logic into the real world, I'd look at her like she was a crazy person.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

As I said a while back, I genuinely liked Venat as a character -- she was cool, she was charismatic, and she was interesting to talk to. Her looking gorgeous in that outfit as Hydaelyn certainly didn't hurt, but that definitely wouldn't have saved her if I didn't have other reasons to like her. I don't hate her for what she did, either -- I hate the story for making it the "correct" choice. Venat was objectively right, based on the principles of how the story's universe works. However, if she brought that crappy logic into the real world, I'd look at her like she was a crazy person.

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Mmmm even with the story’s universe though she isn’t objectively right. That’s the problem with the story, it tries to paint that she’s objectively right, but there’s so much that points to that being incorrect. I think the biggest thing that makes me dislike her is how much of a hypocrite she is. She preaches constantly the entire game about having hope, never giving up, making the impossible possible yet doesn’t apply any of these things to her own people, and effectively gives up on them and murders them all. That’s the biggest thing that makes me dislike her greatly. The fact she’s also a liar and hoards secrets doesn’t help either of course.

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Originally Posted by FrightfulNight

And what better location for a high fantasy European Aesthetic then Ilsabard. You will certainly not get it with Meracydia or the New World and it is to soon to visit another shard, we just got back and need to explore more of the source. I have talked about three zones they could do for this before but let me do it in more detail.

I mentioned a zone inspired by Germany, Austria and Switzerland (something hinted at existing with the Bergsteiger's and Dirndl's Attires) which visually could play a role similar to 1.0 Ishgard now that it is all frozen with Windmills, rolling green valleys, fields of flowers, distant snowcapped mountains, and a very Studio Ghibli inspired visual Aesthetic.

The Scandinavian inspired zone i mentioned could have fjords, Viking longhouses, snowy forests, Aurora's in the sky at night, etc. For inspiration look to Skyrim, the recent God of War or even the Witcher 3.

The final zone I mentioned was one based off of Romania and they could just go all out with this one. I would put Gothic Garlean architecture inspired by the Royal palace before it was destroyed perhaps intermelled with more traditional Gothic architecture. For inspirations with this zone Obviously look to Castlevania and maybe Bloodbourne as well.

They could also add more Mediterranean inspired zones like maybe Werlyt Proper or the long hinted at Corvos. If they want to mix things up they can even throw in a desert zone ruins of the Caspian Sea in Metro Exodus.

I am not saying these zones should be complete one for one copies of real world cultures and nations but instead should build off of them like Thravnir.

This would also allow further Garlean Development to be salvaged after their expansion got gutted to rush the finale.

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I could be easily convinced to purchase an expansion that focuses on zones like the ones you describe here. Corvos and other former imperial territories would be the first logical option for where to place these locations in FFXIV's world, though Meracydia could still be home to similar kingdoms if they take inspiration from FFIX's Mist Continent, which is in a similar geographic location but was not made out to be Australia in that game.

However, I can imagine what the community reaction may be if they did such a thing, with my previous thread outlining a Meracydia expansion revolving around a kingdom roughly analogous to Cornelia or Alexandria being criticized for not having enough "indigenous inspiration" if I remember correctly. There is a massive disconnect between those players and what most FF players seem to gravitate towards in the games they actually purchase.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Mmmm even with the story’s universe though she isn’t objectively right. That’s the problem with the story, it tries to paint that she’s objectively right, but there’s so much that points to that being incorrect. I think the biggest thing that makes me dislike her is how much of a hypocrite she is. She preaches constantly the entire game about having hope, never giving up, making the impossible possible yet doesn’t apply any of these things to her own people, and effectively gives up on them and murders them all. That’s the biggest thing that makes me dislike her greatly. The fact she’s also a liar and hoards secrets doesn’t help either of course.

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But being a hypocrite =/= being wrong. If a murderer tells you that murder is a crime, they are objectively correct, even if they're a hypocrite.

The rules of the FFXIV universe as of EW is that "paradise = bad, suffering = good", and Venat "had to" sunder the world in order to beat Meteion. She also knows, via the story's rules about time travel, that if she follows the exact time loop she was warned of, then the people of the future will become armed with the knowledge of what causes the Final Days. She is, again, correct that if she stays the course, that a person capable of defeating Meteion will appear, with her final test being to defeat Hyadaelyn herself.

Again, I don't like that the story bends over backwards to paint this as the objectively correct course to follow, but it does.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I could be easily convinced to purchase an expansion that focuses on zones like the ones you describe here. Corvos and other former imperial territories would be the first logical option for where to place these locations in FFXIV's world, though Meracydia could still be home to similar kingdoms if they take inspiration from FFIX's Mist Continent, which is in a similar geographic location but was not made out to be Australia in that game.

However, I can imagine what the community reaction may be if they did such a thing, with my previous thread outlining a Meracydia expansion revolving around a kingdom roughly analogous to Cornelia or Alexandria being criticized for not having enough "indigenous inspiration" if I remember correctly. There is a massive disconnect between those players and what most FF players seem to gravitate towards in the games they actually purchase.

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Again, what basis are you using to state what "most FF players" want? You keep trying to argue that the majority of FF players hold your viewpoint, with nothing to back it up.

And even IF that were correct, creators shouldn't have to pander to the most common denominator. That is the easiest way to stifle creativity.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

As I said a while back, I genuinely liked Venat as a character -- she was cool, she was charismatic, and she was interesting to talk to. Her looking gorgeous in that outfit as Hydaelyn certainly didn't hurt, but that definitely wouldn't have saved her if I didn't have other reasons to like her. I don't hate her for what she did, either -- I hate the story for making it the "correct" choice. Venat was objectively right, based on the principles of how the story's universe works. However, if she brought that crappy logic into the real world, I'd look at her like she was a crazy person.

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There are people like venat in the real world
We call them politicians.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Again, what basis are you using to state what "most FF players" want? You keep trying to argue that the majority of FF players hold your viewpoint, with nothing to back it up.

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Something something Elden Ring, something something.

I've yet to see any conclusive proof that "most FF players" gravitate towards the games largely for having a specific type of setting.

FF VII being one of the most popular in the series despite having a very modern setting stands as one of the biggest contradictions in that regard. It is the sum of the parts; the setting, the story, and its characters that makes certain titles loved, not any singular aspect.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Again, what basis are you using to state what "most FF players" want? You keep trying to argue that the majority of FF players hold your viewpoint, with nothing to back it up.

And even IF that were correct, creators shouldn't have to pander to the most common denominator. That is the easiest way to stifle creativity.

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This again? By all means try and take on the task of marketing Final Fantasy Australia or Final Fantasy Colonial-Era Americas to FF players and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I've yet to see any conclusive proof that "most FF players" gravitate towards the games largely for having a specific type of setting.

FF VII being one of the most popular in the series despite having a very modern setting stands as one of the biggest contradictions in that regard. It is the sum of the parts; the setting, the story, and its characters that makes certain titles loved, not any singular aspect.

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Possibly because modern settings have more appeal than barren wastelands with less in them than Gyr Abania or cultures that they simply do not come to Final Fantasy to play through.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

But being a hypocrite =/= being wrong. If a murderer tells you that murder is a crime, they are objectively correct, even if they're a hypocrite.

The rules of the FFXIV universe as of EW is that "paradise = bad, suffering = good", and Venat "had to" sunder the world in order to beat Meteion. She also knows, via the story's rules about time travel, that if she follows the exact time loop she was warned of, then the people of the future will become armed with the knowledge of what causes the Final Days. She is, again, correct that if she stays the course, that a person capable of defeating Meteion will appear, with her final test being to defeat Hyadaelyn herself.

Again, I don't like that the story bends over backwards to paint this as the objectively correct course to follow, but it does.

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The thing is though. she didn’t know if we were capable of it. Not only did she make us trial her, but she also had a backup plan for it in case we failed. She knew 100% it was a gamble, and she gambled the lives of billions all on one person. Even in the games logic though, the ancients did suffer. Venat herself says this. There wasn’t much showing that the ancients couldn’t have combatted Meteion outside of dynamis manipualtion problems, however even the scions and Wol aren’t just completely sundered, they’re 8/14 and 9/14. So clearly it isn’t that drastic of a change. My problem is that she thinks she’s correct when she isn’t. Had she told her people the truth and had hope in them, they perhaps could have come to a solution together. Found an ANSWER if you will. Also….what was stopping her from sundering a select few people or beings? There are just too many variables that paint her as being in the wrong, opposite of what the story depicts her as.

I know you’re just going based off of what the story itself says and not your own feelings, but that’s one of the big problems with EW, it contradicts itself so many times that at this point it’s hard to keep track of what’s what. It’s all just all over the place and we’re expected to just not question it when objectively, venat’s thinking and answers are flawed.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This again? By all means try and take on the task of marketing Final Fantasy Australia or Final Fantasy Colonial-Era Americas to FF players and see what happens.

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"Oh no, I was criticized for making fallacious arguments assuming my tastes = everyone's tastes before, and now it's happening again! How could this be?"

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However, I can imagine what the community reaction may be if they did such a thing, with my previous thread outlining a Meracydia expansion revolving around a kingdom roughly analogous to Cornelia or Alexandria being criticized for not having enough "indigenous inspiration" if I remember correctly. There is a massive disconnect between those players and what most FF players seem to gravitate towards in the games they actually purchase.

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Ah. This explains a lot.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This again? By all means try and take on the task of marketing Final Fantasy Australia or Final Fantasy Colonial-Era Americas to FF players and see what happens.

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"This again" should be my line, since you're the one that keeps trying to sneak your opinion back in.

And yeah, no problem. I don't believe most FF players are that shallow. If you are, that's on you.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is though. she didn’t know if we were capable of it. Not only did she make us trial her, but she also had a backup plan for it in case we failed. She knew 100% it was a gamble, and she gambled the lives of billions all on one person. Even in the games logic though, the ancients did suffer. Venat herself says this. There wasn’t much showing that the ancients couldn’t have combatted Meteion outside of dynamis manipualtion problems, however even the scions and Wol aren’t just completely sundered, they’re 8/14 and 9/14. So clearly it isn’t that drastic of a change. My problem is that she thinks she’s correct when she isn’t. Had she told her people the truth and had hope in them, they perhaps could have come to a solution together. Found an ANSWER if you will. Also….what was stopping her from sundering a select few people or beings? There are just too many variables that paint her as being in the wrong, opposite of what the story depicts her as.

I know you’re just going based off of what the story itself says and not your own feelings, but that’s one of the big problems with EW, it contradicts itself so many times that at this point it’s hard to keep track of what’s what. It’s all just all over the place and we’re expected to just not question it when objectively, venat’s thinking and answers are flawed.

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It was a gamble either way, though. I agree with you: the morally correct thing Venat should have done was trust her fellow Ancients to come up with a solution and tell them the truth. However, at the moment of the Sundering, the Ancients were talking about sacrificing to Zodiark the very creatures that make the future Venat knows will come about. (The games and the devs are inconsistent over whether these lives were the sapient races or merely the flora/fauna. But either way, sacrificing them cut off the future she knows forever.) I saw Venat as having to make a choice right then and there, and she did. Frankly, I think she should have done a hell of a lot more to keep it from coming to that point, but again...that would have been no less a gamble.

While it's true that Hydaelyn didn't know for sure that the WOL would be able to defeat Meteion, they were still her best chance. Again, I have a LOT to say about the things she did and didn't do before it came to that (why didn't she tell the Loporitz to make their own "teeny tiny toy boat" to save the people of the Source? Because the story would have less dire stakes of course.)

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

"This again" should be my line, since you're the one that keeps trying to sneak your opinion back in.

And yeah, no problem. I don't believe most FF players are that shallow. If you are, that's on you.

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And I do not believe most Final Fantasy players will want to buy an expansion set in or that draws heavily from Australia, Africa, or the New World. You will have better luck convincing me to play warlock-era Summoner than you will convincing me to play through that.

Granted, I'll happily cede the territory to your group if you want to play through whatever that expansion will turn out to be with the scions undergoing yet another prolonged period of absent character growth and antagonists with ludicrous motivations and dynamis style plot elements, so long as FFXVI manages to come out before then you'll not hear anything from me till 8.0.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And I do not believe most Final Fantasy players will want to buy an expansion set in or that draws heavily from Australia, Africa, or the New World. You will have better luck convincing me to play warlock-era Summoner than you will convincing me to play through that.

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I would think the reception your concept for your ideal 7.0 got would have been clear enough proof that FFXIV players aren't any more interested in a "pure European fantasy", but that hasn't stopped you from continually claiming the contrary in this thread.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I would think the reception your concept for your ideal 7.0 got would have been clear enough proof that FFXIV players aren't any more interested in a "pure European fantasy", but that hasn't stopped you from continually claiming the contrary in this thread.

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And I look forward to what is your perceived reception from FF players of Final Fantasy: Australian Safari while I am busy going off on a Dragon-Age style quest with Clive and his companions in FFXVI.

Right now the interesting elements that got me into this game have all but exited stage left. Final Fantasy XIV is a position where they need to work to retain me as a player for the future, rather than hoping I'll stick around like I did when I was barely interested in Ala Mhigo but decided to buy Stormblood anyway because Heavensward was fun.

Weak cast? Locations that I have no interest in? What's supposed to keep me around? What's supposed to entice other players besides prettyboy creation and dressup?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Weak cast? Locations that I have no interest in? What's supposed to keep me around? What's supposed to entice other players besides prettyboy creation and dressup?

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Nothing, I guess. Have fun in Dragon Age and FFXVI!

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And I look forward to what is your perceived reception from FF players of Final Fantasy: Australian Safari while I am busy going off on a Dragon-Age style quest with Clive and his companions in FFXVI.

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Hate to disappoint, but I'll probably be thoroughly enjoying myself on the "safari" and playing FFXVI. People that agree with you are always welcome to vote with their wallets, but since so far it doesn't seem like any locale in FFXIV has been divisive enough to cause the mass exodus supposedly around the corner, then I don't think 7.0 will be the exception.

If it wasn't for that point made trying to combat the people who said they would like to see indigenous inspo in Meracydia as opposed to just colonialist Australia or a made up western kingdom, this wouldn't be a racist argument but unfortunately it is. All I'm hearing is "people want sophisticated western culture not indigenous savagery."

To be fair, Stormblood was arguably saved by the inclusion of the Far East and was unlikely to stand on its own two feet as well as it did had it been limited exclusively to the Gyr Abania region.

I'm not entirely against the inclusion of more exotic locales in the future, though such regions are generally handled with a delicate pair of gloves due to a portion of the game's community embracing concepts such as 'cultural appropriation' as seen here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...attire-in-game

If one of the previous comments was supposed to resolve my fundamental lack of interest in locations outside Europe and Asia in terms of the video games I choose to purchase, it has not accomplished the desired goal.

You will not succeed in swaying me to your side with that approach.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair, Stormblood was arguably saved by the inclusion of the Far East and was unlikely to stand on its own two feet as well as it did had it been limited exclusively to the Gyr Abania region.

I'm not entirely against the inclusion of more exotic locales in the future, though such regions are generally handled with a delicate pair of gloves due to a portion of the game's community embracing concepts such as 'cultural appropriation' as seen here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...attire-in-game

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Yotsuyu and the Far East were what saved Stormblood for me, and for many people in fact. This is not an uncommon opinion. I am also unsurprised that a thread was created about that particular piece of glamour. I can only imagine that in a New World expansion that certain players would take offense to the addition of more indigenous glamours despite apparently been so in favor of an expansion set away from Europe/Asia.

There's no real way to please them it seems, goodness knows that if I were in the position to decide where things go from here I would do things my way regardless of their ever-changing whims and rules.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If one of the previous comments was supposed to resolve my fundamental lack of interest in locations outside Europe and Asia in terms of the video games I choose to purchase, it has not accomplished the desired goal.

You will not succeed in swaying me to your side with that approach.

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Pretty sure nobody cares about swaying you. Nobody cares about you renewing your sub. Nobody cares about you playing other games.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not entirely against the inclusion of more exotic locales in the future, though such regions are generally handled with a delicate pair of gloves due to a portion of the game's community embracing concepts such as 'cultural appropriation' as seen here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...attire-in-game

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I mean, to be completely fair, cultural appropriation is definitely a problem in FFXIV, but it's kind of a drop in the bucket. But between appropriation and exclusion, the former is the lesser of two evils.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If one of the previous comments was supposed to resolve my fundamental lack of interest in locations outside Europe and Asia in terms of the video games I choose to purchase, it has not accomplished the desired goal.

You will not succeed in swaying me to your side with that approach.

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Once again, I promise that nobody here is particularly worried about swaying you or resolving your lack of interest regarding anything in particular. By all means, enjoy Elden Ring and Dragon Age and FFXVI. Have fun!

I don’t think anyone is trying to persuade you, they’re just pointing out the way to the door, since a lot of your posts in this thread are about how much you’d like to leave…

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I mean, to be completely fair, cultural appropriation is definitely a problem in FFXIV, but it's kind of a drop in the bucket. But between appropriation and exclusion, the former is the lesser of two evils.

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I actually have a lot of unease about the possibility of a focus on the New World, because how they've handled elements of it, or elements adjacent to it so far, do not fill me with a lot of reassurance about being respectful or avoiding caricatures - but then again, I did really enjoy Thavnair and thought it was handled well, so who knows?

Well you're honest about your racism at the very least.

Despite my issues with EW, I’m participating in this (and other threads) because I love this game and how Venat was written is an issue towards my enjoyment.

If I was concerned the devs were unable or unwilling to keep on making a product I was interested in, I’d simply unsubscribe and play something else. Pretending like I must be catered to or the devs “will be sorry” because “everyone secretly agrees with me” is a pointless enterprise. The expac I wanted from EW probably would have been deeply unpopular; I can acknowledge the unpopularity of my views and still hope that my thoughts and concerns reach the devs. A minority voice is still valuable—sometimes, the most valuable.