Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by Decrith

He's only half right, the rotation at the first page is the optimal rotation assuming you have the base GCD of 2.5, but with SS say... 2.4 GCD your rotation with your OFF-GCD skills have to move a bit. Skill Speed becomes entirely useless if you follow that rotation by the letter, because it doesn't utilize SS potential to get an extra skill or 2 off in a smaller time. An example would be leg sweep, try stacking all your skill speed gear and try to do the normal rotation, if you'll notice that if you delay using your next GCD to use leg sweep before a particular skill you'll be completely negating the effects of skill speed entirely. It's a bit hard to explain, but what I'm trying to say is, if you use a off-gcd skill in between your gcd skill and that said off-gcd skill is delaying gcd skill regardless of why (example, it became available when there's 1 second left till your GCD is ready and you forced to pop it first), it's better to wait for the next gcd to use it, so the incoming GCD won't be delayed by the off-gcd skill's animation.

Ughh wall of text, I hope you understand what I was trying to say xD

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Care to elaborate on how much SSP is needed for any of this and what the rotation would look like? Does it even alter the actual full rotation GCDs?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Care to elaborate on how much SSP is needed for any of this and what the rotation would look like? Does it even alter the actual full rotation GCDs?

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It's generally the same for the GCD rotation, only difference is, the off gcd skills are moved by a GCD at a certain point (and moved again by another point) because it'll delay your GCD if you use a skill when your GCD is almost complete. I'm certain a lot of people would disagree with me that moving the off-gcd skills or holding off in using them will hurt your DPS, but not utilizing the SS you have is a greater lost imo (assuming you have a lot of it).

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Originally Posted by pompey_dan

Huh? I don't know if I'm understanding you correctly but are you trying to say that clipping CT after 3 ticks is better then using FT combo filler lol?

You left out on your maths that CT dot will be ticking when both clipping CT and when using FT combo.

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Well no, it won't be better and after rereading my OP I can understand why you think that is what I am saying as I wasn't very clear. You will be missing out on the DoT from Chaos that ticks while you do a 2nd FT combo. I guess what I am trying to figure out is at what point is it "ok" to clip CT, as we all know in a normal fight - you won't be able to get the full "optimal rotation" due to disconnects.

For example, when you return to the mob, let's say there are 5 ticks (or 15 seconds) remaining on CT (this is pretty much after Chaos & 1x FT filler, plus the few seconds of disconnect breaking vines or whatever). This means that CT will actually fall off while you are refreshing it, if you were to do a FT filler before doing so. The alternative is to clip CT by about 2 ticks (or 5ish seconds).

What is the "threshold" in which clipping CT is better then doing an extra FT? Is it better to clip CT by a few ticks or let it fall off for 2 or so ticks?

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On another note, I think that the SS discussion that is going on is rather moot (honestly I haven't been reading much or any of it, just glanced).

In order to fully benefit from SS, you would need to stay on the same mob, or continuously use skills for a minimum of 25 GCD's (Assuming your GCD is 2.4 compared to 2.5) to be better off, and in addition your attacks hit for less. The moment you disconnect at less then 25 attacks (at a .1 second difference in GCD) your .1 GCD difference is rendered useless.

I am bad at math though.

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Originally Posted by Altena

What is the "threshold" in which clipping CT is better then doing an extra FT? Is it better to clip CT by a few ticks or let it fall off for 2 or so ticks?

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Probably only when you have insane Skill Speed and are able to get 2.5 FT combos + HT/PH alternates in while CT tics, not counting the time it takes to refresh CT (so, able to get 2.5 FT combos + alts in ~24 seconds, ish...which is around 12 GDC or about 2-second GDCs)

That's just speculation I put down above. But I'm sure it will only be "worth" it when you get enough SS to require fillers (Fracture says Hi) again. But then our TP cries horribly, so yeah, probably want to avoid that.

Ultimately, you'd have to do all the fun math (including HT buff) and a TON of testing on dummies. And you have to remember you must finish a combo, so that does influence this a lot...which is why I said insanely high SS is likely to cause this (and I mean sustained, not just Selene-buffed) I'm guessing the end result would be either "always do 1 CT to 2 FT, regardless of SS" or "you need to have fillers (Fracture) added to keep CT from clipping as SS goes up". Yeah, do the math with Fracture as filler too...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Ultimately, you'd have to do all the fun math (including HT buff) and a TON of testing on dummies. And you have to remember you must finish a combo, so that does influence this a lot...which is why I said insanely high SS is likely to cause this (and I mean sustained, not just Selene-buffed) I'm guessing the end result would be either "always do 1 CT to 2 FT, regardless of SS" or "you need to have fillers (Fracture) added to keep CT from clipping as SS goes up". Yeah, do the math with Fracture as filler too...

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So basically what I understand from your post - you feel it is better to let CT fall off for 2-3 ticks then it is to clip it for about the same?

Assume you have a disconnect that lasts for half of a FT combo - so your choice is to clip it, or do your 2nd FT and let it fall off. The other part to consider is if you are letting Chaos fall off for a few ticks, you are also letting Disembowel fall off for an extra GCD on top of that - so the FT during the 2nd combo would likely not have the 10% piercing buff.

so, how should we upgrade our novus? considering that i only have acess to sold gear, i guess i should cap det and drop all (or almost all) acc in favor of crit, since cap is 495, anything above it is just worthless or should i'll be above the cap by a little just to be sure?

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Originally Posted by Altena

So basically what I understand from your post - you feel it is better to let CT fall off for 2-3 ticks then it is to clip it for about the same?

Assume you have a disconnect that lasts for half of a FT combo - so your choice is to clip it, or do your 2nd FT and let it fall off. The other part to consider is if you are letting Chaos fall off for a few ticks, you are also letting Disembowel fall off for an extra GCD on top of that - so the FT during the 2nd combo would likely not have the 10% piercing buff.

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Yo, do yourself a favor and just do whatever works for you. Sometimes you gotta clip it, depending on certain fights/jump/movement patterns. Just try to not reply when it CT is around 5~ just get a feel for how long your gcd is and what extra things you can squeeze in.

Been having some fun with an extremely low accuracy set for dungeons and primals... So low in fact, that I've actually noticed some misses from the front in lv50 Dungeons and Ex primals.. I am sad and proud at the same time lol.. Only 353 accuracy.. 504 Crit, 344 Det, and 469 SkSp.. Item level 93 build.. Would be nice if I had some 2nd coil drops to play with

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Been having some fun with an extremely low accuracy set for dungeons and primals... So low in fact, that I've actually noticed some misses from the front in lv50 Dungeons and Ex primals.. I am sad and proud at the same time lol.. Only 353 accuracy.. 504 Crit, 344 Det, and 469 SkSp.. Item level 93 build.. Would be nice if I had some 2nd coil drops to play with

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I'm surprised you missed in dungeons, funny. EX Primals require T5 accuracy, right?

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I'm surprised you missed in dungeons, funny. EX Primals require T5 accuracy, right?

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Yea I was too. Just frontal attacks, and some AoEs. Quite a few misses on Halatali HM with that Gloom debuff from the second boss. I didn't notice any misses from flank or behind, though. I thought that ex primals didn't have any accuracy requirements, except Levi (moogle ex? not sure). I missed from the front on titan gaols, too. Overall I guess it's OK as long as you are flank/rear. Tanks however.. May need a bit more than 353 accuracy lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yea I was too. Just frontal attacks, and some AoEs. Quite a few misses on Halatali HM with that Gloom debuff from the second boss. I didn't notice any misses from flank or behind, though. I thought that ex primals didn't have any accuracy requirements, except Levi (moogle ex? not sure). I missed from the front on titan gaols, too. Overall I guess it's OK as long as you are flank/rear. Tanks however.. May need a bit more than 353 accuracy lol

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Oh yeah, I think I meant just Levi. Been so long since I learned what requires what, haha.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I'm surprised you missed in dungeons, funny. EX Primals require T5 accuracy, right?

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Only Levi, and Moogle I believe.

So guys what are some good dps numbers for T6 - T8 for a DRG sitting at i96 with i95 weapon? (Allagan spear) I haven't been able to come across an i100 weapon yet.

Just looking for a good set of numbers to strive for while I try to gear up.

Roughly around 250-ish :)...When you get i110 weapon, you should be expected to deal roughly 290-ish Dps :p..It was my average DPS when I was ilv 94 with no ilv110 weapon and my DPs after I got the weapon was around 300 DPS and my ilv was 98

What about i98 average level and i100 weapon in T8? Around 300 or more?

290-ish, unless with X-potion of strength, then, you can push to 300, but not over 310. My DPS at the stage in t8 was 296DPS. Oh I forget, I use Button in a Blanket HQ as food, X-Potion of Strength for burst, and my acc is 520.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

Roughly around 250-ish :)...When you get i110 weapon, you should be expected to deal roughly 290-ish Dps :p..It was my average DPS when I was ilv 94 with no ilv110 weapon and my DPs after I got the weapon was around 300 DPS and my ilv was 98

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And here I thought I was doing bad sitting around 260 -270 in T6/T7. x.x; Weapon must be holding me back more than I thought. Gotta work on my animus faster I guess.

You are doing good if you are sitting around 260-270 in T6-T7. Yeah weapon contributes a large portion in increasing our DPS. So unless, your group can consistently clear t7-t8, you should work on your Animus, then again, you don't really need that much DPs for t6-t7. A levi or allagant one will do just fine. I never had my animus when I cleared t6-t7 ...

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

What about i98 average level and i100 weapon in T8? Around 300 or more?

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350 atleast.

t6/t7 has excuses for loss of dps due to vines, devours, and voice/shrieks. T8 rarely has anything. Unless you're doing a lot of mechanics, you should hit about what you hit at a dummy.

Your damage for t6/t7 also depends on mechanics. If you get nothing and still hit 250, then you're losing dps somewhere.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

350 atleast.

t6/t7 has excuses for loss of dps due to vines, devours, and voice/shrieks. T8 rarely has anything. Unless you're doing a lot of mechanics, you should hit about what you hit at a dummy.

Your damage for t6/t7 also depends on mechanics. If you get nothing and still hit 250, then you're losing dps somewhere.

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Lol, then I'm really at a loss. I'm standing at 300-310, doing everything I can think of and just in charge of driving away the homing missiles - which should be DPS heaven, but for some reason I just can't seem to squeeze more damage than that. 99% correct rotation (sometimes I mess up because of chaos in the fight and get distracted), popping cooldowns as soon as they're available, constant uptime (don't know why the parser says 92% though?), Selene (I happen to finish my TP along the way, sometime). The only thing I don't use are the potions, but potions if I remember correctly have a high cooldown anyway, so they can't possibly impact my DPS by 40-50 points. Aside from the TP bar reaching < 30% constantly and no TP song to be had, I have no clue about what I should do. The only thing that comes to mind is that the parser might have registered some of the moments when we didn't fight, but I wouldn't bet on that. We didn't clear it, we just trained it two times this week, yet I'm not really sure what I am missing as a DPS - this should theoretically be my time to shine, if I understood correctly.

What this thread's consensus about locking on? Do you guys do it? Does it make a big difference in DPS?

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Originally Posted by Kurand0

What this thread's consensus about locking on? Do you guys do it? Does it make a big difference in DPS?

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I do it, I have it set to a fast hot key so I can quickly take it off when I have to move out of an aoe like circle blade etc. Keeps your auto attacks going at all times. It's a small DPS increase compared to legacy without lock on.

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Originally Posted by Butcherboy

Question on drg for Levi ex fight. Are drg good on that fight? What dps number I should b looking for? I'm ilvl93 and I know how to play the job. But I started farming it, but having problem keeping 200+ dps that I'm having problems.

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A good DRG can do all fights, even Garuda Ex (dont let baddies tell you otherwise). 200+ is slightly low, but 250 iirc is a good baseline on levi. There's a couple tricks I use to boost my numbers on that fight, such as holding DFD for when theres the 2 adds, having Levi slam me into his face so I can Phleb his face before starting rotation on the tail (it just just over 1 GCD to run across the boat), always make sure dots are up before he dives, and save Spineshatter for spumes if possible. Don;t forget you can also use Elusive Jump to bounce from 1 spume to the next.

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

I do it, I have it set to a fast hot key so I can quickly take it off when I have to move out of an aoe like circle blade etc. Keeps your auto attacks going at all times. It's a small DPS increase compared to legacy without lock on.

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Very small especially if you move with strafes. Its really user preference imo.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

290-ish, unless with X-potion of strength, then, you can push to 300, but not over 310. My DPS at the stage in t8 was 296DPS. Oh I forget, I use Button in a Blanket HQ as food, X-Potion of Strength for burst, and my acc is 520.

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Not to offend but that seems a bit low. I can't recall what I was doing for my first attempts at 2nd coil but I do recall at flat i90 with relic zenith on First coil being able to easily pull 300+ on fights like Cad and ADS (old school style). I also remember pre-2.2 a BiS DRG (i91) could max out about 350. This all depends on how many mechanics your taking care of however. Less mechanics is more DPS for you.

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

And here I thought I was doing bad sitting around 260 -270 in T6/T7. x.x; Weapon must be holding me back more than I thought. Gotta work on my animus faster I guess.

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Thats actually really good considering all the potential for downtime, such as bad luck with vines/honey/devour/blighted.

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Originally Posted by Altena

So basically what I understand from your post - you feel it is better to let CT fall off for 2-3 ticks then it is to clip it for about the same?

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Just to go back to this...

My CT rarely, if ever, falls off, and I use the rotation in the OP (2 Thrust combos to one CT combo, plus alternating HT and PH). It takes me making a mistake or certain fight mechanics for that to happen. Normally I reapply at, I think, 2-5 seconds remaining (0-2 tics depending on the server clock), due to my high skill speed and whether Selene is there or not (and mechanics); probably more like 2-3 seconds at reapply on average. I pretty sure when I used the T5 BiS it was normally reapplied at 1-2 seconds remaining, or even just as it fell off (which is actually the ideal).

I don't know what you're doing to have CT fall off consistently enough to assume others are doing so.


Pretty much my post said the opposite of what you thought. More SS = more actions during the CT duration. At an SS to allow 2.5 Thrust combos in the CT duration, its likely better to clip CT by that 1/2 combo time, rather than try to get a third Thrust combo in and let CT fall off or stop the Thrust combo to reapply CT at the correct time. Also, at high SS, you use filler moves, like Fracture, to keep CT up as long as possible, since you'd gain 1 extra GDC over CT's duration (at the highest SS that we can currently achieve anyway)

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

I do it, I have it set to a fast hot key so I can quickly take it off when I have to move out of an aoe like circle blade etc. Keeps your auto attacks going at all times. It's a small DPS increase compared to legacy without lock on.

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I'm 90% sure its more "valuable" on MNK, as our AA is normally around our GDC (and we should only be moving on the boss for two moves, where MNK can be moving every move or every other), so it lines up reasonably well, or well enough that a few lost AA don't matter over the course of a long fight (damage RNG will have more an effect kinda small)

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Not to offend but that seems a bit low. I can't recall what I was doing for my first attempts at 2nd coil but I do recall at flat i90 with relic zenith on First coil being able to easily pull 300+ on fights like Cad and ADS (old school style). I also remember pre-2.2 a BiS DRG (i91) could max out about 350. This all depends on how many mechanics your taking care of however. Less mechanics is more DPS .

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Ha, don't feel sorry. :p. However, compare DPS wise between Cad and ADS, where you literally doing nothing except to avoid Tail Swipe and Repelling Cannon (AOE around the boss), to the boss in t6,where there are a lot more downtimes, BB, Vines,Stacks for Acid Rain) is a bit unfair, don't you think? :)Plus not to mention, the boss has more defensive stats compared to the first Coil. Also, 290+ DpS is given based on he only has i100 Weapon and Ilv 98 in total. As for me, that was also my average DPS when I was ilv 96 with Levi Weapon. Nevertheless, I will re-evaluate my performance to see if I can push it a bit further.

Ah I thought we were comparing T8, which is similar to Cad.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Very small especially if you move with strafes. Its really user preference imo.

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Yeah, it's a very tiny dps increase and won't make or break a fight I don't believe, since drg is not mnk and doesn't move quite as much. I do it because it gives me a better "feel" for positioning I guess. I agree that it is user pref If you like it do it if not not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I'm 90% sure its more "valuable" on MNK, as our AA is normally around our GDC (and we should only be moving on the boss for two moves, where MNK can be moving every move or every other), so it lines up reasonably well, or well enough that a few lost AA don't matter over the course of a long fight (damage RNG will have more an effect kinda small)

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yeah drg doesn't move as much as a mnk so a mnk has more reason to do this. I just use it cause it feels more comfortable to move around bosses with it on. I don't do it cause of dps reasons, I just like it.

I actually didn't think about it till now, but what parser are our friends using? Logrep and XIVAPP seem to have different numbers - as in, REALLY different. The first says 317 and the other one 375 on training dummies while in party, without food/Selene. Not sure what I should trust anymore lol.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

350 atleast.

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Am I just an awful DRG then :(? i103 DRG w/ Liberator (i110). I do about 380-390 dps via ACT. I'm in charge of homing missle/brainjack for all of the fight, and just homing missle at the end. TP starved in last phase for about a little less than a minute. We do have Selene.

I think with just i100 weathered Liberator I was pulling somewhere around 330-340.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/6176814/. HQ apkallu for 490 acc.

I also do about 340 on T6 using briar/ss method. ~300-320 on T7. In first 2 phases of T9 I'm averaging ~300 at the wipe.

If DRGs in low gear should be pulling ~350 at a bare minimum T8 style what I am doing wrong that I'm barely higher? Let me know!

Noob dragoon question, apologies if it's been asked/answered in the previous 294 pages. Life Surge/Internal Release/Power Surge are all 60 second cooldowns and usually come off cooldown in the same Heavy Thrust duration for me. Should I be saving them to use with Blood for Blood (80s cd, so 20s later) or using them as they're up?

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Noob dragoon question, apologies if it's been asked/answered in the previous 294 pages. Life Surge/Internal Release/Power Surge are all 60 second cooldowns and usually come off cooldown in the same Heavy Thrust duration for me. Should I be saving them to use with Blood for Blood (80s cd, so 20s later) or using them as they're up?

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In general, no, don't save them. If there are specific mechanics where something needs to be burst down quickly, then you typically will want to save them for that burst phase. Of course, you want to try to use Life Surge with either Full Thrust or Jump (highest potency attacks) while under B4B.

Internal Release I always use on CD. B4B I typically use on CD, unless the aforementioned burst phase is looming, or there is a mechanic where you expect to take large incoming damage (obviously you don't want to commit suicide with B4B). Use Life Surge with either Jump or Full Thrust, preferably while under B4B.

My perspective anyways..

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Am I just an awful DRG then :(? i103 DRG w/ Liberator (i110). I do about 380-390 dps via ACT. I'm in charge of homing missle/brainjack for all of the fight, and just homing missle at the end. TP starved in last phase for about a little less than a minute. We do have Selene.

I think with just i100 weathered Liberator I was pulling somewhere around 330-340.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/6176814/. HQ apkallu for 490 acc.

I also do about 340 on T6 using briar/ss method. ~300-320 on T7. In first 2 phases of T9 I'm averaging ~300 at the wipe.

If DRGs in low gear should be pulling ~350 at a bare minimum T8 style what I am doing wrong that I'm barely higher? Let me know!

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I always go with the notion.. build my gear sets to avoid using accuracy food.

That should be the aim.

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Originally Posted by HulveinBlitz

I always go with the notion.. build my gear sets to avoid using accuracy food.

That should be the aim.

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While I appreciate the comment, you provided no reasoning for why your suggestion is meaningful. Why should that be the aim? If my accuracy food gets me to the cap while giving me a higher amount of stats is it not superior to less stats but buttons/risotto?

To piggyback off that - what are your numbers like and what content are you currently tackling for comparison?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Am I just an awful DRG then :(? i103 DRG w/ Liberator (i110). I do about 380-390 dps via ACT. I'm in charge of homing missle/brainjack for all of the fight, and just homing missle at the end. TP starved in last phase for about a little less than a minute. We do have Selene.

I think with just i100 weathered Liberator I was pulling somewhere around 330-340.

If DRGs in low gear should be pulling ~350 at a bare minimum T8 style what I am doing wrong that I'm barely higher? Let me know!

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It could be because of being tp starved. Your t6/t7 and t9 doesn't seem to be lacking assuming average mechanics so it's more about the fight than your rotation. What do you pull at a dummy over 3 minutes? Are you averaging 380-390 throughout the entire fight? Or do you average higher and then drop due to certain things like not having tp?

Also you just simply don't get that much dps for gear. For reference, at a dummy I hit 350~ with i95 weapon and full i90 and now I hit like 450~ with i115 weapon and almost full i110 (minus 1 ring).

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I don't know what you're doing to have CT fall off consistently enough to assume others are doing so.

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Well on a straight zerg with 1 boss, no adds and pretty standard mechanics, no it generally won't fall off during the 2nd FT..
However mechanics such as T7 where you get shriek, or in T6 if you have honey and need to be devoured, getting conflag in T5 - it will generally fall off before you can finish your 2nd FT combo.

General mechanics such as breaking vines in T6, or very short disconnects in general, no it generally won't fall off during the 2nd FT. I am just more curious what people do in that instance.

Generally if Chaos is going to fall off mid FT combo and I still have to refresh HT or Phleb, then I usually just skip the 2nd FT and end up clipping it pretty heavily.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

It could be because of being tp starved. Your t6/t7 and t9 doesn't seem to be lacking assuming average mechanics so it's more about the fight than your rotation. What do you pull at a dummy over 3 minutes? Are you averaging 380-390 throughout the entire fight? Or do you average higher and then drop due to certain things like not having tp?

Also you just simply don't get that much dps for gear. For reference, at a dummy I hit 350~ with i95 weapon and full i90 and now I hit like 450~ with i115 weapon and almost full i110 (minus 1 ring).

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I have no idea what I pull on a dummy these days. Maybe I'll check today. I avg 380-390 at the end of the fight so naturally it was probably a bit higher prior to running dry, but I don't run my parser up over I just minimize the game post fight/wipe to check final numbers, etc.

Thanks for the response.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

I actually didn't think about it till now, but what parser are our friends using? Logrep and XIVAPP seem to have different numbers - as in, REALLY different. The first says 317 and the other one 375 on training dummies while in party, without food/Selene. Not sure what I should trust anymore lol.

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Sorry if I up my question, it's just that I'm really confused considering what I'm reading @_@

hey, fellow Drg here, just asking for some advice(omg, really?). I've been getting a lot of flak from my static on the amount of dps I've been doing in 2nd coil, and I'm appalled by the numbers I'm showing on there. On t6 I've been parsing around 240dps and on t8 been doing around 290-320dps when our monk who has i95 weapons has been doing over 400dps. I also have an i95 weapon and I'm at ilvl96 gs. on dummy i can reach up to 340-380... :(
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...racter/5923289
Buttons HQ

oh whoop, what's the logic behind all dat skill speed?

My det just dropped below 300, but my skill speed, is close to 500.