Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

In hindsight...so much was/is wrong with Tural....i laughed about while i did the msq...but. Everyone wears the same colored poncho, from human to birdman to Lizardpeople, often even the same colors. It just looks lazy and quickly thrown together like some untalented designer just had the job to "fill" the map with npcs. Instead of putting effort in he just copied in the standart model for 100 times and called it done.
The "races" in lack for a better word are so one dimensional. "Oh here we have the pelu-pelu" which love to trade but are after a fair deal for everyone. The one person that we meet hasnt choosen a "job "yet...surprise...he wants to become a trader. Wow. Same with the goblins...everyone is a crafter. Thats not how you show a continent, thats how you introduced your beast tribes expansions ago.

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Originally Posted by Vensaval

It's not even the lack of intrigue and tension, but the lack of actual culture as well. As you said, Tural is just peace, food (mostly tacos), llamas, and merchants. The Yok Huy had the most developed culture, but even that was rather minimal.

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There has been more culture on the DoH quests than in all of the MSQ combined, and I'm not even half way done with them.

I found funny that at some point in one of them, they mention the pelu find mate nutritious and that made me laugh, because I live in a place where mate is very popular (to the point were people carries thermoses with them to make it even when hanging out at a park), and some people do believe that when in fact mate is just disgusting bitter tea

Yeah... I hate mate, and I don't understand why so many people like it, but don't tell people here, they might lynch me.

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Originally Posted by Midare

There has been more culture on the DoH quests than in all of the MSQ combined, and I'm not even half way done with them.

I found funny that at some point in one of them, they mention the pelu find mate nutritious and that made me laugh, because I live in a place where mate is very popular (to the point were people carries thermoses with them to make it even when hanging out at a park), and some people do believe that when in fact mate is just disgusting bitter tea

Yeah... I hate mate, and I don't understand why so many people like it, but don't tell people here, they might lynch me.

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Amen to that. Both the Viera in the gatherer questline were 100% more heartfelt and characters than Erenville ever was.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Amen to that. Both the Viera in the gatherer questline were 100% more heartfelt and characters than Erenville ever was.

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I thought that it was so bizarre how all the really neat lore was shoved into the Wachumekimeki quests. The one where you help a girl bind books together has a bunch of "origin" stories for all the species that live in Tural. The botinist/miner one had some lore about how the viera are here. Hell, the *fisher* questline had stuff about blue mages!
I do all the quests in the game anyway but feels kinda weird to put a bunch of world building behind things some players may not be interested in (now everyone likes to craft or gather)

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

That is because there was intrigue and tension in Ishgard and Othard. Tural is just peace and tacos and has absolutely nothing of substance and when they tried to shoe horn some in, it was too late and done sloppily. Sure it is a new chapter like ARR but ARR at least had stakes. The fault clearly lies on Hiroi and Kate, since she seems to have her fingers all over the writing and story too, and both of them need to be held accountable for what is clearly XIV's lowest point writing wise.

I am so scared on how FFXI is going to be butchered in the upcoming raid. So so scared. Vana'diel has some of the best story and lore in the FF franchise that was handled with care throughout its life cycle. I really hope they don't poo all over it like they did with Tural.

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If Kate has anything to do with it she WILL use the mistranslation about Galka as canon, especially if they go into The Shadowlord's origin story.

if it gets butchered it'll cause more people to go back to or try out FFXI?

And should FFXI get popular again at least that game is far too old to get messed with.

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Originally Posted by Midare

There has been more culture on the DoH quests than in all of the MSQ combined, and I'm not even half way done with them.

I found funny that at some point in one of them, they mention the pelu find mate nutritious and that made me laugh, because I live in a place where mate is very popular (to the point were people carries thermoses with them to make it even when hanging out at a park), and some people do believe that when in fact mate is just disgusting bitter tea

Yeah... I hate mate, and I don't understand why so many people like it, but don't tell people here, they might lynch me.

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The Crafting/Gathering side stuff in Wachu was actually interesting. Learned stuff about blue mages while fishing of all things, learned about Vieras while gathering, got some origins lore while making books, it was actually interesting stuff, although short. The stuff they actually put in the MSQ though was...really basic. Pelu Pelu are people that REALLY like drinks, alpacas, and trading. Hanu Hanu LOVE their reeds and festival. Xb'raal was...tacos. Mamook was bananas...and a centuries long eugenics problem solved by giving them something to plant that wasn't bananas. There wasn't really a whole lot there overall that we got culture wise outside of the Yok Huy.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

I am so scared on how FFXI is going to be butchered in the upcoming raid. So so scared. Vana'diel has some of the best story and lore in the FF franchise that was handled with care throughout its life cycle. I really hope they don't poo all over it like they did with Tural.

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Originally Posted by DiscoDuck

If Kate has anything to do with it she WILL use the mistranslation about Galka as canon, especially if they go into The Shadowlord's origin story.

if it gets butchered it'll cause more people to go back to or try out FFXI?

And should FFXI get popular again at least that game is far too old to get messed with.

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Not sure what mistranslation you're referring to, unless they're retconning that Galkas reproduce by reincarnation or something?

I also dunno why people are comparing Tural with Vana'diel... Tural was created by these writers while FFXI and Vana'diel have established lore and canon events that the writers simply need to draw from for their content. It's not the same situation. Remember that the past two FFXI crossover events accurately flashbacked to events from FFXI and involved two characters who were presented as the same as they were in FFXI (Iroha and Shantotto). So unless they've indicated otherwise, I'm hoping for a nice nostalgic run through some FFXI content.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

The Crafting/Gathering side stuff in Wachu was actually interesting. Learned stuff about blue mages while fishing of all things, learned about Vieras while gathering, got some origins lore while making books, it was actually interesting stuff, although short. The stuff they actually put in the MSQ though was...really basic. Pelu Pelu are people that REALLY like drinks, alpacas, and trading. Hanu Hanu LOVE their reeds and festival. Xb'raal was...tacos. Mamook was bananas...and a centuries long eugenics problem solved by giving them something to plant that wasn't bananas. There wasn't really a whole lot there overall that we got culture wise outside of the Yok Huy.

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I think Dawntrail is the sidequest expansion because I feel like I've learned more about Tural and its people from a few blue/yellow quests than I did from the entire MSQ
Ever wanted the game to tell you about the Pelupelu; why do they wear the masks? Well the MSQ doesn't say much about that but some random ass yellow quest does; apparently the Pelupelu used to be exploited and subjugated by the other Turali races who saw them as tiny weak wimps to be screwed over and taken advantage of, so they started wearing masks based off the feared Valigarmanda to make themselves more imposing and demanding of respect. Pretty cool little trivia right? I wish they dropped some more small lore like that in the MSQ, it only takes a single dialogue box or two to add some small flavor, and put together all those small drops of flavor add up to make the MSQ show a much more compelling world. Granted that would require the player to read something that's not about the life and times of Poochie which is a tall ask it would seem

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Amen to that. Both the Viera in the gatherer questline were 100% more heartfelt and characters than Erenville ever was.

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Admittedly, Erenville was the only one willing to say it loud and clear when he mentions fearing travelling with Poochie might have traumatized him.

Granted, it's clear that the whole point of his position was to be the tsundere childhood friend to the "ain't she great!" main character and was affected by the black hole of IQ that she is at times because her gravity pull it's just that powefull, but still, he was along with Krile, one of the characters that didn't make me roll my eyes or facepalm every time they spoke.

On the other hand, I really don't want to see Alisaie until the writers give her back the chunks of brain they removed from her this xpac to turn her into Poochie's cheerleader.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

The Crafting/Gathering side stuff in Wachu was actually interesting. Learned stuff about blue mages while fishing of all things, learned about Vieras while gathering, got some origins lore while making books, it was actually interesting stuff, although short. The stuff they actually put in the MSQ though was...really basic. Pelu Pelu are people that REALLY like drinks, alpacas, and trading. Hanu Hanu LOVE their reeds and festival. Xb'raal was...tacos. Mamook was bananas...and a centuries long eugenics problem solved by giving them something to plant that wasn't bananas. There wasn't really a whole lot there overall that we got culture wise outside of the Yok Huy.

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I finished the ones for ltw, wvr and crp and just started the one for the metalworks, so far, so good.

I think that unconsciously, I'm dodging the alch/cul ones because if I hear again how soft shelled tacos stopped a decades long war, I might remember how ridiculous that is again.

(And how incredibly disrespectful is that at the end of that quest Poochie handed me merely the leftovers of the food Krile and me made... I guess we were the maids supposed to feed on the scraps.)

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Originally Posted by Midare

I finished the ones for ltw, wvr and crp and just started the one for the metalworks, so far, so good.

I think that unconsciously, I'm dodging the alch/cul ones because if I hear again how soft shelled tacos stopped a decades long war, I might remember how ridiculous that is again.

(And how incredibly disrespectful is that at the end of that quest Poochie handed me merely the leftovers of the food Krile and me made... I guess we were the maids supposed to feed on the scraps.)

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Without spoiling a lot the alchemist/cul one is about a girl mamool ja from the magically inclined side trying to make healthy drinks for the different races' needs because she has pretty low magic skills. Not really high stakes but a good one.

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Originally Posted by BabySneed

I think Dawntrail is the sidequest expansion because I feel like I've learned more about Tural and its people from a few blue/yellow quests than I did from the entire MSQ.
Ever wanted the game to tell you about the Pelupelu; why do they wear the masks? Well the MSQ doesn't say much about that but some random ass yellow quest does; apparently the Pelupelu used to be exploited and subjugated by the other Turali races who saw them as tiny weak wimps to be screwed over and taken advantage of, so they started wearing masks based off the feared Valigarmanda to make themselves more imposing and demanding of respect. Pretty cool little trivia right? I wish they dropped some more small lore like that in the MSQ, it only takes a single dialogue box or two to add some small flavor, and put together all those small drops of flavor add up to make the MSQ show a much more compelling world. Granted that would require the player to read something that's not about the life and times of Poochie which is a tall ask it would seem

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Yeah I found out that info doing the side-quest as well. Which is really sad that they put the interesting lore behind the side-quests and chose the best way to "represent the cultures" in the MSQ was mostly...what they eat and drink. Like I'm glad the Pelu Pelu like their drinks and alpacas and trading, but the fact that was ALL they threw at us and left things like why they wear their masks to side-quest status is kind of...sad. They literally could've had someone just ask "So why do you wear masks exactly?" during the MSQ. But nope, mezcal and alpacas are it.

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Originally Posted by Midare

...I finished the ones for ltw, wvr and crp and just started the one for the metalworks, so far, so good.

I think that unconsciously, I'm dodging the alch/cul ones because if I hear again how soft shelled tacos stopped a decades long war, I might remember how ridiculous that is again.

(And how incredibly disrespectful is that at the end of that quest Poochie handed me merely the leftovers of the food Krile and me made... I guess we were the maids supposed to feed on the scraps.)

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I won't spoil anything major for the Alchemist/Culinarian, but it is very wholesome and does not involve any tacos stopping a several decades long war.

Also Wuk was very, very, very hungry. So hungry she ate everything before her; including all the other characters' personalities and story development, like she did Kriles.

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Originally Posted by Midare

I think that unconsciously, I'm dodging the alch/cul ones because if I hear again how soft shelled tacos stopped a decades long war, I might remember how ridiculous that is again.

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The alc/cul quests are very wholesome and juice lady is precious and to be protected.

I was trying to give my husband bullet points so he could skip the absolute mess of a story that is the MSQ, and I couldn't do it. I ended up giving him a full Youtube breakdown video everytime I tried to summarize something. Is that more of me problem? Probably. Did the horrible writing full of plot holes, inconsistencies, and pray return to the wuk lamat help? Absolutely not. Please, please let the patch story have nothing to do with her and focus on Krile explore the mystery around her family that leads into a totally different story instead.

I'm banking on the side quests to completely salvage Tural at this point too, b/c I absolutely hate that region due to the MSQ. From the posts above, it seems there are some really fun and quirky indepth quests in my future that has nothing to do with the spoiled child princess. Any future that is Wuk lamat less, is a bright one imo.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

Without spoiling a lot the alchemist/cul one is about a girl mamool ja from the magically inclined side trying to make healthy drinks for the different races' needs because she has pretty low magic skills. Not really high stakes but a good one.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

I won't spoil anything major for the Alchemist/Culinarian, but it is very wholesome and does not involve any tacos stopping a several decades long war.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The alc/cul quests are very wholesome and juice lady is precious and to be protected.

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Well now I'm curious if there's so much praise. I can dig wholesome.

I think the biggest crime still is the fact that the only reference to the Whalaqee.. our only tie to the New World in Eorzea is relegated to a fishing quest. Unless the field operations / patch msq take place in their homeland.
Gods.. I also forgot how dumb the sudden shift of the Mamool Ja collectively pretending to be dumb in Eorzea was.

Its true, the side quests are sometimes better than the MSQ

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Originally Posted by Zelda206

Wuk Lamat ruined the MSQ while the VA is bringing ruin on Twitter and simultaneously destroying the PR being heaped on trying to protect Bryer from criticism, systemically destroying the good will that was built between the team and playerbase by once again proving that hiring these individuals that are so full of themselves has done nothing to help the industry on any level. Our WOL was a pretty strong and sturdy individual with a myriad of ways to answer (even though the ellipses answer hardly went anywhere), but DT was the first time we had our tongues cut out and replaced with a strawman's. The entire fiasco surrounding the VA may be small, but it's a blatant red flag on the rest of the change that's going on in the team and in the product.

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I think everyone criticizing Sena needs a little perspective is all. They asked the VA to play an incompetent, loudmouthed narcissist that spends all expac failing upwards and using others to her own ends, all while surrounded by a team of fawning sycophants telling her she's the best thing ever, and us, the player/WoL, being dragged along for the ride and shamed whenever we go to criticize her. The casting was perfect when you look at it like that.

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Originally Posted by Midare

Well now I'm curious if there's so much praise. I can dig wholesome.

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As someone mentioned, it's not a high stakes story. But it's a story where we help someone succeed who is trying her best and it just makes you feel good. And like stomping on the faces of everyone who was mean to her in the past.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

I think everyone criticizing Sena needs a little perspective is all. They asked the VA to play an incompetent, loudmouthed narcissist that spends all expac failing upwards and using others to her own ends, all while surrounded by a team of fawning sycophants telling her she's the best thing ever, and us, the player/WoL, being dragged along for the ride and shamed whenever we go to criticize her. The casting was perfect when you look at it like that.

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Well, you can go ahead and close out your account - you've officially won the forums. Not only did you articulate every criticism I have with this character in a way that was as efficient as it was accurate, you did it in a way that made me laugh.

It's a shame I can't like your comment more, the least I can do is make sure it gets quoted! A most memorable post if there ever was one! XD

I found DT msq to be boring and also replayed it on an alt with JP voices and it was a better experience. Guess SE got cheap with the english voices I was sure it was good last expansion.

I was expecting an adventure to find a golden city like el dorado but we only got wuk lamat. Solution 9 would have been better if it wasn't revealed and spoiled before DT was even released. I remember being in awe when a futuristic city was discovered when I first played through ff8.

I wasn't hyped about DT to begin with when it was revealed so having the msq being disappointing just made it worse experience. Mostly looking forward to the ff11 raids its why I even got DT so can be prepped for it. Hope they don't ruin it otherwise it makes me feel like I wasted money and its not a good feeling.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

I think everyone criticizing Sena needs a little perspective is all. They asked the VA to play an incompetent, loudmouthed narcissist that spends all expac failing upwards and using others to her own ends, all while surrounded by a team of fawning sycophants telling her she's the best thing ever, and us, the player/WoL, being dragged along for the ride and shamed whenever we go to criticize her. The casting was perfect when you look at it like that.

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Pack it up guys. We won.

Wuk Lamat-defenders in shambles.

You know, when someone posted that Dawntrail parody of that years long "Lackluster Endwalker story" thread before the expansion's release, I hadn't realized how prophetic it would end up being.

That being said, I didn't mind Wuk Lamat during the first half of the story, and even liked the idea of the first half being more slower paced/lower stakes. Unfortunately my general opinion of the first half and the story in general has soured the more I thought back on it and discussed with friends.

I've been sitting on the MSQ for awhile, and honestly, after finishing the totally not rigged cooking contest, what is exactly the point of the trials at all? Wuk Lamat and Koana will get grouped together always. Even the Dawnservant has a bias, but apparently we see nothing of him educating his other two sons. He wants Wuk Lamat to win, everyone wants Wuk Lamat to win. We're helping Wuk Lamat win. I think everyone else is just a decoration for Wuk Lamat.

I hate how the story manages to find ways to have Wuk Evu exposition dump. Oh he just HAPPENED to be here, and happened to KNOW the information we need so he can bestow upon us his boundless wisdom so it may overflow and hopefully put my WoL out of her misery. I hate being right about that.

The little 'escort' quest prior to the Skyruin sucked the little 'oh nice' I had for it. They...seem too fond of whatever 'tension/spooky' music that was used in ShB for when Vauthry attacked the crystarium. It honestly overstayed its welcome in this case. Spooky/scary music in the BG, meanwhile, just escort this goofy hand minion as it points at the wrong fire aspected thing that you have to kill. Wow, so threatening and lethal. Skyruin was...actually a let down, or maybe I was just...too burnt by it.

Of course, they say I can finally rest in the awesome cabin? Rest? Nope. Wuk Lamat, and you open the door, she invades your space and now you must follow her outside because she's a ball of stress, so she can talk to you about peace, while showing you actual nightmare fuel of an Old NPC, what's with the hyper-realistic wrinkles...I've started to skim through dialogue, especially Wuk Lamat's because her dialogue is just..predictable and there's not much for her to add. She's not here to 'show us around' this new culture/place- which would've been great honestly, to help someone knowledgable and passionate about her people rather than whining about mundane shit and talking about ~peace~, even Zoraal Ja is extremely boring, existing to be a Krile jumpscare, I get it, he has ~ambition~ can we stop talking about his ambition and actually SEE?

Also stop dropping this hear feel think bullshit, it's so cringe out of the context of EW. Why the hell is Wuk Lamat of all things saying that to me?????

I have no interest in Zoraal Ja's ambitions, Wuk Lamat's bizarre adventures, or even Koana who I thought I'd warm up to but I ended up not. Bakool Ja Ja, I don't understand wtf he's doing, but at least he amuses me. I have no interest in Gulool Ja Ja anymore.

I'm inhaling some severe copium that the golden city might be interesting but then I remember I have to put up with Wuk Lamat and the gang...and it just sucks the enjoyment and fun out of me. I don't recall being so discouraged from the MSQ since post ARR. I guess writing this out is somewhat relieving...

So I'm only at about level 94-95 quests in DT. Stopped for a bit just after the solo duty with wok lambchop against bakool ja ja. And I have to say, it really sucks that I'm so bleh about this expansion so far. I was poised to give it a fair shake despite what a good amount of trusted friends said about it, but I just can't shake the fact that this feels so lackluster. I don't think Wuk herself is the problem, I think the team of people who wrote her is. But even then, she and her siblings, except maybe Zoraal Ja since his entire personality consists of scaring Krile (mean) so far, have at least some personality, even if it's not to everyone's liking. The Scions feel so... flat. Like I'm talking to one-note cardboard cutout versions of them instead of the people they were developed into over the course of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark saga. I hear that the second half isn't as bad as the first, but the bar's getting to be pretty low. I rarely skipped cutscenes when I played through the game, save for the beginning of ARR and a few points of Stormblood because parts of it made me super impatient lol, but most of these cutscenes are so... nothing. They make me feel nothing. And that's worse that feeling angry, I just feel nothing.

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Originally Posted by Plumbago

I hear that the second half isn't as bad as the first, but the bar's getting to be pretty low..

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You just exchange one flavour of nonsense for a different flavour of nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Skyruin was...actually a let down, or maybe I was just...too burnt by it.

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Wow, it is sad to have to acknowledge this, but even that straight-forward pun has more layers to it than what the MSQ got out of Valigarmanda.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

I think everyone criticizing Sena needs a little perspective is all. They asked the VA to play an incompetent, loudmouthed narcissist that spends all expac failing upwards and using others to her own ends, all while surrounded by a team of fawning sycophants telling her she's the best thing ever, and us, the player/WoL, being dragged along for the ride and shamed whenever we go to criticize her. The casting was perfect when you look at it like that.

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Sweet mother mary of jesus christ, that's the best post I've seen on this.

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Originally Posted by DonutSteel

You know, when someone posted that Dawntrail parody of that years long "Lackluster Endwalker story" thread before the expansion's release, I hadn't realized how prophetic it would end up being.

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A lot of the complaints in the "Lackluster Endwalker" thread about plot-holes, flaws in writing, flat characterisation, lack of WoL agency etc. became even more obvious in DT. There were a lot of arguments and some overreactions (understandable, emotions run hot when people love something that feels like it's heading in a terrible direction) but overall a lot in that thread feels rather prophetic now.

To me it felt like something about the writing quality shifted half way through EW, became more pronounced in the patches and now is glaringly obvious in DT. I truly hope the devs listen to the current complaints and correct their course.

Valigarmanda shouldve been the main boss in DT instead of Sphene. DT suffers from (aside from like a million other things) of the same problem as EW. For some odd reason, they insist on jamming two expansions into one.
EW I understood as "we want the Hydaelyn Zodiark saga to end" soooooo.. whats the reason to badly pace and rush Dawntrail then? These decisions baffle me.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Valigarmanda shouldve been the main boss in DT instead of Sphene. DT suffers from (aside from like a million other things) of the same problem as EW. For some odd reason, they insist on jamming two expansions into one.
EW I understood as "we want the Hydaelyn Zodiark saga to end" soooooo.. whats the reason to badly pace and rush Dawntrail then? These decisions baffle me.

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I could actually get behind that, because it would force the writers to completely rethink how they bring tension into a story instead of trying to go through the motions and reheat story elements from previous acclaimed releases.

The big thing would be, every expansion up until now, the final boss has been 'the BBEG with a plan'. Valigarmanda as an entity on the contrary is simply a single beast with no plan and no political agenda, but the power to bring destruction to all civilization on the continent all by itself. It doesn't deploy minions, doesn't rule a nation, and it doesn't scheme against the player or any other faction. It just exists as a destructive force. If THAT is the final boss of the expansion, the story leading up to it is going to be a completely different experience and largely involve mini arcs to overcome obstacles that the final boss probably either wasn't even involved in or didn't intentionally put in place. It would be much more the story of a complicated journey with the goal of slaying the beast eventually, instead of the story of the player spearheading some large scale conflict like we have already been doing expansion after expansion.

And if the MSQ were a wondrous journey across the continents instead of a silly competition and a war, it could have done SO much more into exploration, discovery, and the joys and rigors of being on a difficult journey, that it might have actually been the 'beach vacation episode' the marketing promised us.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Valigarmanda shouldve been the main boss in DT instead of Sphene.

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This was my wish as well. I would have loved for Vali to be a Nidhogg-like character with a real motive and personality. Vali should have caused us a lot more trouble than it did, but instead we defeated it like 20 minutes after first seeing it? So lackluster.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

As someone mentioned, it's not a high stakes story. But it's a story where we help someone succeed who is trying her best and it just makes you feel good. And like stomping on the faces of everyone who was mean to her in the past.

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"Not a high stakes story".

Did we play the same expansion?

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Originally Posted by Rin_Sato

"Not a high stakes story".

Did we play the same expansion?

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I believe the person you're quoting from was talking about the alchemist/culinarian crafting quests for Dawntrail, not the MSQ (I know because its not specific out of context it looks like it could be referring to the MSQ, but it isn't). You'll find the rest of the conversation on page 291 with the bit you quoted spilling over to page 292.

I disagree that the final bad needs a motive and personality. Beasts/parasites with no real motive other than destruction and self preservation have worked as "villains" in numerous stories, including Chrono Trigger. Valigarmanda turned into a real growing continental threat would work perfectly for a story that's supposed to be about understanding the many different cultures within and then having every one of them need to work together against a threat that can't be reasoned with. That could have worked fine without rehashing Shadowbringers and Endwalker concepts.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I disagree that the final bad needs a motive and personality. Beasts/parasites with no real motive other than destruction and self preservation have worked as "villains" in numerous stories, including Chrono Trigger. Valigarmanda turned into a real growing continental threat would work perfectly for a story that's supposed to be about understanding the many different cultures within and then having every one of them need to work together against a threat that can't be reasoned with. That could have worked fine without rehashing Shadowbringers and Endwalker concepts.

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Worked in FFXIV's story too. I mean, Primal Bahamut, one of the foundations for the game's story, had no personality or motive.

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Originally Posted by Serilyn

I believe the person you're quoting from was talking about the alchemist/culinarian crafting quests for Dawntrail, not the MSQ (I know because its not specific out of context it looks like it could be referring to the MSQ, but it isn't). You'll find the rest of the conversation on page 291 with the bit you quoted spilling over to page 292.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

-snip

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I don't know what it is with the devs/writers just wanting to speedrun through as much as possible with minimal buildup recently, but it's really causing things to not remotely feel threatening like they should be to me personally. The final days for example are hyped up in Shadowbringers by Emet to be an event that brought the ancients to the brink of extinction. Meanwhile in Endwalker the final days only affected Thavnair and Garlemald and then it's over because we figure out at the end of zone 5 the cause of them and then nip it in the bud immediately in zone 6. Meteion was introduced in zone 5 as the "penultimate villain" of a 10-year story and then given only zones 5/6 and some cutscenes to convince players she deserved that title. [Whether or not she did is completely up to personal opinions.]

Valigarmanda suffered this same speedrun, just like many things in Dawntrail did. Valigarmanda was hyped up to be this monstrous creature in legends that even after fighting Gulool Ja Ja and his group for 10 days couldn't be slain by them, only being sealed away in a gradually weakening prison. He is finally released!...and then Wuk kills it with our help in about 15 minutes and we move right on.

v--Cringe "What-If? Below--v

They could've had Valigarmanda be the level 99 trial instead, where this time Zoraal Ja is the one to release him. We still kill Valigarmanda, but it's a short lived victory as it's essence is still lingering since Valigarmanda was extremely strong even by normal tural vidraal standards. Then have Zoraal Ja suddenly seal it away, similar to how the tural vidraal were sealed in the role quests, and then he flees. Fast-forward to the final zone: Zoraal Ja is the level 100 dungeon boss. We punch him in the face and he devours the souls. Now the level 100 trial starts as his trial form, and just like phase 1 of the trial, we beat him down fast because he has used so many souls his normal body just genuinely cannot take it. But he has one final trick up his sleeve and infuses himself with the essence of Valigarmada, essentially transforming into Shinryu 2.0 [The devs/writers pretty much made Zoraal Ja a piss-poor bootleg version of Zenos, so I'll just fully lean completely into the complete bootleg part] and then the actual level 100 trial fight starts. Yes this would require pretty much a complete overhaul of the story, hence the cringe, but given my own personal feelings about Dawntrail's story I'd happily take a complete re-write.

Yes, they do mention Valigarmanda was imprisoned for 80 years and also beaten down due to it's fight with Gulool Ja Ja, but that just seems like such a cop-out excuse when they could've absolutely done more then just release it and then IMMEDIATELY kill it off barely 15 minutes later before it does literally anything of value just to paint Wuk Lamat as a incredible hero of Tural.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

Valigarmanda was hyped up to be this monstrous creature in legends that even after fighting Gulool Ja Ja and his group for 10 days couldn't be slain by them, only being sealed away in a gradually weakening prison. He is finally released!...and then Wuk kills it with our help in about 15 minutes and we move right on.

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The marketing for DT was a promise that we would face Valigarmanda as this legendary monster of truly epic proportions, so major they had to foreshadow it through the Sharlayan library episode in 6.55.. and then they give us a really underwhelming fight and the excuse that the legendary monster was now anemic, starved, out of shape, had a hernia, and I don't really care what else -- but the point is, as a player I do not care if they can make it make sense in the lore, I care that I was sold the promise of an epic confrontation for the ages and didn't get anything of the sort.

EDIT: Yoshi-P always telling us to "look forward to it" is starting to ring pretty hollow if something we are told is going to be special is instead served as a nothingburger even a few more times.

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

The marketing for DT was a promise that we would face Valigarmanda as this legendary monster of truly epic proportions, so major they had to foreshadow it through the Sharlayan library episode in 6.55.. and then they give us a really underwhelming fight and the excuse that the legendary monster was now anemic, starved, out of shape, had a hernia, and I don't really care what else -- but the point is, as a player I do not care if they can make it make sense in the lore, I care that I was sold the promise of an epic confrontation for the ages and didn't get anything of the sort.

EDIT: Yoshi-P always telling us to "look forward to it" is starting to ring pretty hollow if something we are told is going to be special is instead served as a nothingburger even a few more times.

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It's one of the things that makes me think something really weird happened behind the scenes fairly late in development. Wuk's characterization in 6.55(mainly the stuff around hunting) and the marketing would line up with Valigarmanda as at least a more notable threat, but I can't make up my mind on whether or not it's more likely that it was just a bait and switch because they knew the MSQ wasn't good(Yoshida said he "wasn't surprised" by the overall community sentiment in an interview) or if they had no confidence in their product, condensed the hell out of it, and threw in a mountain of FF9 memberberries and rehashed ShB/EW premises to try and save it.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It's one of the things that makes me think something really weird happened behind the scenes fairly late in development. Wuk's characterization in 6.55(mainly the stuff around hunting) and the marketing would line up with Valigarmanda as at least a more notable threat, but I can't make up my mind on whether or not it's more likely that it was just a bait and switch because they knew the MSQ wasn't good(Yoshida said he "wasn't surprised" by the overall community sentiment in an interview) or if they had no confidence in their product, condensed the hell out of it, and threw in a mountain of FF9 memberberries and rehashed ShB/EW premises to try and save it.

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And speaking of hunting, what of that enormous beast that Estinien hunts in the trailer? Only for Estinien to not even appear in that entire zone of the game, nor have any contact with the people there, and no trace of that beast or any part of the MSQ that even hints that going on a big game hunt might have been in the cards as part of the rites?