If the life steal is the only change we get this patch it is slap in the face of drk players, a really non-fix to a fundamentally broken skill that needs to be completely remade and ignoring several other issues with the entire kit.
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If the life steal is the only change we get this patch it is slap in the face of drk players, a really non-fix to a fundamentally broken skill that needs to be completely remade and ignoring several other issues with the entire kit.
my concern atm is if LD still wears off once hp hits 100%. Also, "significant" amount could be anything from healing yourself back to full after the healer died in dungeon pulls or just a 400 potency heal on attacks i.e. BW/NF. Honestly, adding a convalescence effect (similar to ToB) would have been enough to help the healers. This just means that you HAVE to be attacking to help the healers and sometimes that's not feasible with certain mechanics. Gonna have to wait till the full patch notes to see, especially after the mentioned WAR adjustments.
Gonna say it now, nerfing other tanks to make DRK better is not good game design.
I also worry about the "significant" part. It is either only as strong as Bloodwhetting which still means healers need to pump resources into the invuln that they simply don't need to spend on other tanks, or it will be significantly stronger than Bloodwhetting at which point you might run into the issue of healing yourself to full too early, leading to you getting flattened because you cancelled LD too early by doing your job "too well". Either way it is still just an inferior version of Holmgang with a longer cooldown and shorter duration.
But I guess we'll see.
The LL was disappointingly brief in its discussion of job changes. Could be tone-deaf, could be miscommunication, could be just one part of an adjustment they didn't completely explain.
I'm still reserving judgement until we see the Patch Notes and can evaluate the full extent of what this means.
But if they're still reading and evaluating player reactions: make sure the "unkillable" effect of Living Dead doesn't end early when you fully heal, or this change will be self-defeating.
EDIT: I've been browsing for any live translations of the last LL, no luck on that front though I'm not in the translation discord, so I've just been compiling bits and pieces from reddit.
Quote:
They will decrease some of the level requirements of job skills so that low level dungeons will be less boring as you will have more skills to use.
From the Crystal Conflict playtest, some people also mentioned seeing Sole Survivor return in PvP, as well as a new PvP ability where DRKs "seem to grow wings and send a massive blast of darkness in multiple directions."Quote:
- DRK - implied that DRK can recover from Walking Dead by themself. Also mentioned that some actions have been given charges, and attacking without being affected by latency (my speculation: Blood Weapon is the only thing that is significantly affected by latency afaik).
- General - changing balance for low-level content to improve jobs without enough to do, specifically lowering the level that skills are acquired. He also said something about "reducing the potency of range A, making range B usable at the same time, etc." with regard to low-level content, but TBH I have no idea what he's talking about.
Realistically, if the goal was to let drk save themselves from LD, then significant heal could be 20-25% hp per gcd. If it’s 20%, then latency would be a problem if you want to not rely on healers but you won’t end it early if you get all five hits. If it’s 25%, then you would be able to save yourself consistently but you will end it a few seconds early.
Maybe extending the duration to 12s could help but we’ll have to wait and see. Also I’m 90% sure bloodweapon will be change to stacks since Yoshi-p said one of drk’s ability will be changed to stacks and can be used no matter the latency which can only really mean bloodweapon.
Not really. Putting saying, Shadowbringer, into LD means it no longer aligns with the next buff window, making it a DPS loss. Therefore, it'd be better for the healer to throw you an oGCD. The only oGCD that could be okay as a dump would be Flood. I'd say Curve and Spit or Plunge but they may not align, and you'd never hold onto them just for LD. Well, not CS at least.
My hope is once you cleanse the healing factor of Walking Dead, it just stays active for 10 seconds regardless. Alas, that requires some actual foresight. So I'm not holding my breath.
The only way to make LD Lifesteal effective enough is to effect every attack possible than focused GCDs only, or it's still going to massively suck. After trying to speed run using Drk myself, I want to keep a 10 foot pole to keep it away from me, my goodness trying to fit in so much O-GCDs and trying to stay up to date on the mechanic situation is brain breaking.
One change I do want to see that will make dungeon DRK less squishy is to just bring Abyssal Drain back to a GCD and make it the second AoE combo after Unleash.
We never use it in Raids and Trails anyway and since it’s an GCD AoE, we won’t be using it on our opener, so no button bloat there. Why they haven’t done this yet is beyond me.
I think that they're still trying to gauge feedback on their ideas, or else we would have seen more specifics about the change and possibly even a proof of concept.
As long as the heal or die condition exists on Living Dead, there are going to be player complaints about it and there will be a need for UI changes to support the action's use. It fundamentally does not make sense for Living Dead to have a longer cooldown than Holmgang while having an extra punishment condition attached. If they just get rid of that instant death condition, then I think pretty much everyone will be happy with the proposed self-healing component regardless of how it gets tuned. If they don't, it's going to come up again and again.
Ideally I'd like to see something done about Oblation's underwhelming effect as well, but if they get Living Dead and Blood Weapon right I could learn to live with it.
Exactly this. Even with the self-healing element proposed, as long as the tallied instant death condition is connected to its maximum duration, the effect will always be imbalanced with the other Tank Immune skills. The only other one with a cost to use is Superbolide, but the cost is negligible given that it's paid on activation and can be visibly reimbursed over the duration, by visually communicated means.
I would be willing to give up the (up to) 10 sec prep time afforded by Living Dead if it meant that Walking Dead wouldn't 1) kill the DRK when the timer ends and 2) dispel the defensive effect alongside the Doom countdown, preventing a full 10 sec of defense. I'm sure we would find consensus in that, too, at least providing that the activation didn't have an animation delay as now.
And to the rare elements of the community who crave theoretical risk over practical reward: There are solid ways to make an immune CD with a risk element attached to using it, but the Doom clock as executed is not one of them. Even with the self-healing "reward" of the CD, it becomes further punishment if the effect is still dispelled early, especially by itself.
To ask for the "risk" or "forced communication" to be maintained in a position where it only serves as punishment without any support to counterbalance it (or even having any telegraphed communication for how close it is to being dispelled), is asking to put the cart before the horse.
The change on LD is great if the invincibility doesn't expire even after healed to full.
What I mean is that when you go into Walking Dead, you cannot die for 10 seconds regardless if you heal to full or not. If you heal yourself to full you just lose the "you die at the end of the duration" problem.
What DRK needs at the moment is a bit of a regen and a better Oblation, with Dark Mind probably changed completely to synergize with the job's defensive kit.
->Oblation should be a bit stronger, maybe 15%. At the moment it doesn't feel valuable. On P4S, if you don't use Oblation but use Shadow Wall, you cannot see a difference compared to using Oblation as well.
->Oblation could have a regeneration effect added to it, to allow DRK to recover some healing from sustained damage such as auto attacks or hits that happen often and somewhat hard, but not hard enough for TBN to be broken reliably.
A regen of 200 potency for 12 seconds would equal 800 healing in total, which is much less than PLD's 1000 ( + Clemency if needed ) and GNB's x2 Aurora ( + 900 potency heart of corondum )
->Dark Mind should be changed to be something else which has more synergy with the job. A simple additional damage reduction which - 1) works only on magic damage 2) you have too much damage reduction that you start getting diminishing returns from stacking it so much - doesn't really add anything. Instead another shield or an instant heal?
Here's an idea for a Dark Mind rework:
->Grants 3 stacks of Blood Price + 2 additional stacks for each enemy in a 25 yalm area around the player.
->Each stack of Blood Price is a 400 potency shield, which when consumed heals you for the same amount.
->Stacks are consumed whenever you take damage, but can only be consumed by 1 for each attack and not more than 1 per second.
->Stacks last for 20 seconds, Dark Mind keeps its CD of 60 seconds.
->Reactivating the ability allows you to consume all remaining stacks, for half their potency as a heal.
This is basically a pretty good ability to deal with auto attacks, it can be ended early if you need a heal as well, and is not particularly over powered. It works well in dungeons when multiple mobs are attacking you, and it solves mostly any situation I can think of regarding DRK's sustain. It can even be used quite effectively on multiple hit tank busters to some extent.
Its a concern because if you are in Walking Dead and are supposed to take a tank buster / mechanic that does successive hits and you are also in burst you may end up healing yourself too fast, and "curing" walking dead early.
The invulnerability ( you cannot go below 1 HP ) should be independent from the "if 100% HP is restored, you are fine, otherwise you die" - so that you cannot leave it by mistake of you doing too much damage or the healer healing you up too fast.
If the self-healing is too potent, it's entirely possible that your own self-healing, combined with the healers using AoE heals on the rest of the group to deal with raidwide damage, will remove your Walking Dead status before you actually take the damage you're intending to use it on.
All the way back in 3.3, I once had a Brute Justice pull where my healers had an unlucky series of critical Medica II/Indom/etc heals on me during the last Final Punch, while they were healing damage to the rest of the party from Long Needle, and I just died because Walking Dead was removed a second or two before I took the last attack in the sequence. It's not very fun to die 11+ minutes into a fight when nobody has made a mistake because your healers' critical heal luck was a little too uncanny.
It's not really a problem with the current version of Living Dead, because you need some extraordinarily bad luck to be healed to full by raidwide heals, but if the 6.1 changes don't include a safeguard against removing your invuln too early and the self-healing is strong enough that healers remove the effect after healing only 50% (or less) of your HP, then this change is a massive nerf to Living Dead and is going to render it unusable in a lot of situations where it's currently completely fine - basically in any instance where healers want to do party healing at the same time you're using an invuln.
Hopefully SE has the foresight not to make that mistake.
With this change a ED can literally kill you. Or you could essentially kill yourself if the tank busters are 2 GCDs apart. Current savage tier you should be ok.
Literally they just needed to remove the death penalty and it would be fine. A WHM can still kill you on a non well timed Bene with this new version. And now possibly an AST can kill you if timed improperly. Hopefully they thought this through and the tooltip has additional information we arent aware of that makes LD much better
While warriors can basically solo invul every second tankbuster and heal themselves on 1 click drk now has to stop dealing dmg to not accidentially overheal during invul to not die. Good luck communicating this to the healers, they would also need to stop aoe heals.
This is either a very bad way of communicating changes or they weren't aware of the healing colliding with the mechanic.
I have never been in one fight Healers using AOE while Walking Dead is active, mitigation would be soaking 1st than healing in the middle of it, Healers have so many O-GCDs. And I doubt life steal would be insanely strong, this is SE we talking about.
This is really unplanned and can easily be avoided, my whole team was topped before Final Combo, though we did the Water skip.
It seems like a silly constraint to forbid your healers from using AoE healing while Walking Dead is active just because it might break your death prevention effect. We've been told to 'work around' design flaws in Living Dead for approaching 7 years now. It would be nice to have a defensive capstone ability that doesn't feel like a liability to use.
While I 100% agree that Square hopefully had the foresight to consider this, this kinda situation is insanely niche as is.
With how they've been gradually designing fights, almost every single important tank mechanic is now happening in its own little 'bubble', so to speak. Happening when no other mechanics are happening, telegraphed by a 5-6s castbar along with however many 3s chains of autoattacks separate the tank mechanic from the previous mechanic, etc. The amount of overlap between 'when healers AOE heal' and when multi-hit tank busters (let alone just single hit ones) happen is effectively zero these days.
There's also the fact that it's only a very small niche of multi-hitting tank busters even need a long time on the immunity timer - taking this tier for example, Elegant Evisceration's two hits in P4s are spaced out literally 1-2s apart, meaning even if you somehow got an early cleanse on WD 3s in, you'd be perfectly fine. To my recollection, the longest multi hit chains in recent memory are Ahk Morn (3rd or 4th ones) from UCOB (where there's also no residual AOE damage going out), Ifrit's triple flare breath (again, no aoe damage) in UwW, & TEA's heat + 3x divine spears, where there's also no residual AOE damage going out. (and WD can also be delayed on by simply popping DM + TBN so Heat won't kill to give even more wiggle room).
Again, I'm not denying that hopefully Square took it into consideration, but AOE heals from healers accidentally purifying WD is such a niche issue in the grand scheme of things with how they design their fights. The bigger issue IMO is if the lifesteal is GCD based or if any move can proc it, since in the latter it might be possible for a DRK to solo turbo themselves out of WD by accident if a tank buster aligns with their 2min burst window and the lifesteal per hit is strong enough.
As a former DRK, adding lifesteal on living dead nerf/buff.
nerf due to if you get heal by healer and you attack with gcd when there a second buster coming to you and you are fully healed ( so no more walking dead).You are kinda on the big yikes moment.
Buff due to we got something to counter walking dead.
But at the end. It still a shitty invul button but now there a gimmick on it. They should just put the holmgang affect with touch of superbolide and add lifesteal when reaching 1 hp be done. But, nope let make this job the worse design ever. I play SMN right now and they say my job is incomplete. Compare to DRK my job is more complete than DRK will ever be.
Crater's point is that if the only change being made to Walking Dead is to add a lifesteal effect without changing the way that the rest of the old skill works, then that 'niche' scenario is going to become more common. The alternative complaint that you'll see come up is that players are forced to stop attacking if there's a lot of ambient healing going out for fear of cleansing the effect too early. And telling players to 'just work around' a badly designed action is not an acceptable response.
The amount of lifesteal that they've added will actually be irrelevant if the dev team doesn't properly understand the underlying problem. The core problem is the implementation of the heal or die condition, not in finding resources to meet the healing check:
1) You do not know how much healing is still left to cleanse the effect because there is nothing on the in-game UI that tells you this.
2) It is possible to cleanse the death prevention effect too early.
Both of these problems absolutely have to be addressed or the same complaints will come up again and we'll be revisiting this in future Q+As. Pretty much the only solution that isn't going to create a lot of additional work for the dev team is to just make this Holmgang + Lifesteal and remove the heal-or-die effect altogether. It's still not a great solution, because death prevention effects only actually mitigate damage when you're at 1 HP, so the two effects will always work against each other to some degree. But at least it would be a meaningful solution.
I think they said before that they like the flavour of the skill so much they want to keep it, but I feel like it directly goes against the design philosophy they've taken with every other job, which is to make things more simple.
If they separate the heal or die mechanic off from Walking Dead and just put it into a simple Doom debuff, which I feel that most healers intuitively know, it's probably the best thing they can do, but the more time goes on the more I worry that they won't do that and this is just gonna be a bandaid "fix" that causes more problems. Much like DRK's EW kit.
Oh, and being that it's been a significant amount of time, has anyone actually benefitted from Enhanced Unmend yet?
Some in the JP forum has said the don't die mechanic will remain even if you clear early walking dead so the main question is if you are going to be able to get rid of it by your self and if the self healing effect is going to remain the full duration of the don't die buff, is not 100% sure as far I can tell so we still have to wait but if the JP forum is right then living dead will be decent, if not then it just open a new bag of problems for the skill like many has said
I don't get why they don't just get rid of the death mechanic.
Something something job flavour.
I don't get it either, since they've been erasing the flavour of DRK for a long time. Instead of tweaking Dark Arts to be less spammy, they just removed it. They also took the coolest looking DRK animations, like Power Slash.
Living Dead's flavour could be anything. Living Shadow could be summoned and take the damage for you, like a dummy, instead of being a glorified DoT. Myste could appear and cast a spell that would make you invulnerable for 10 seconds. Anything other than killing the player for using a skill that's intended to... protect them from death.
Hoping the JP forum is correct. The dont die mechanic still is in effect the full 10s even if you cleanse the death penalty. Its still pretty bad if the healing is not as significant as they say.
Leaving the death penalty in isn't ideal, and still arguably leaves LD as the worst invuln bar none... but if the Doom effect can be dispelled without removing its Holmgang element and we get a guaranteed 10 sec of survival, on top of the life leech potentially clearing it, it'll be a vast improvement over now and make the skill at least workable for casual content.
Though if the self-healing element can clear it, it really just seems like extra steps to negate the Doom penalty without actually removing it, but at this point I'm taking whatever.
I just noticed something (hope someone didn't mention it already), go to around 8:15 and watch the DRK's buffs near the top. I wonder how they're going to work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJpSIpC4uXU
Oh boy. Since I'm unwilling to talk about anything happening to DRK in PvE, I am more than willing to talk about Dark Knight in PvP. I love DRK in PvP. I'm not as hyped for PvP as I am for Ultimate, but I'm more interested now than I have been since my Feast days. Here are some things I have noticed.
-We still got Bloodspiller and Quietus, with their MP restoring functions removed due to the PvP changes. Blood gauge acquired through Souleater/Unleash combos, looks like.
-Shadowbringer is here, 4000 potency, possibly replacing Edge and Flood. Using Shadowbringer grants Darkside for 15 seconds, in a strange twist of fate. Darkside seems to guarantee critical direct hits on all outgoing damage. That's cracked, YIKES.
-Plunge is here. The classic. 2000 potency. Plunging on enemies seems to inflict Another Victim from Sole Survivor. This is probably a damage received up debuff. Very good for picks. If Plunge resets on kill/assists like it does currently, this could be devastating for people out of position or retreating.
-TBN is here. May be a duration of ten seconds, it lasted a bit longer than it usually does. TBN being broken gives you Dark Arts for 10 seconds. I can't determine exactly what Dark Arts actually does though. It may actually grant the usage of ANOTHER Shadowbringer, this would make sense to get a max duration of 30 seconds of Darkside, the current PvP cap.
-Salted Earth, ten seconds duration? Looks like it applies two buffs to the DRK, one 10 second(I'm assuming for the circle itself, like in PvE), one 5 second, seemingly becoming active after using SaD, that also seems to be applying some sort of debuff! I REALLY hope it's a heavy. Salt and Darkness explosion has a potency of 4000. Reminds me of Tar Pit a bit.
The limit break. Eventide? Living Dead? Drains all HP, deals 16000 - 18000 damage, 22000 on crit, huge line, really edgy. Gives you a red buff that looks like Raise, cannot die while this buff is active, and also seems to be the healing component of Living Dead. Duration of ten seconds and heals via damage dealt 1:1 or maybe just a flat amount? Unsure, but it's definitely coming from the Dark Knight, as was said in the Live Letter changes. Something interesting, the buff DOES NOT go away when the Dark Knight reaches max HP thresholds. A silver of hope for you friends, maybe.
I hope Dark Knight is good in this mode, I love the idea of light area denial combined with massive aoe burst damage. I can see good synergy with WHM and DNC in particular.
Okay my interest has piqued. If this buff is also part of PvE/Living Dead then I'm gonna have a field day. Some poor DF healer is gonna be subjected to me using LD on the first pull of a dungeon.
Also might consider trying out DRK in PvP for once instead of just sticking with WHM/MCH.
Interesting, sounds like they're pulling PvP DRK more in line with its classic FF iterations, with an LB that actually evokes a classic Darkside. (Onyx Wave or one of its many renames, perhaps.)
Wonder if this means all tank immunes will become their PvP LBs. Much to ponder.
Hold your horses, I very much doubt they would make PvE's Living Dead deal any sort of damage or it would be wasted on your opener.
Though I suppose if they removed the Doom clock, made it an HP to 1 skill like Bolide but with a Holmgang and Life Drain instead of an immune, that would definitely be a vast improvement over current LD.
Sorry I should've been clearer. I meant the red buff that looks like Raise, not the ability itself. I have no expectations for what change is going to happen LD, but if it's anything like what was shown in PvP with the lifesteal buff then I will happily use it more often.
pvp DRK always been pretty fun,
too bad they remove the draw in effect on unmend years ago,
but im very excited for pvp DRK but pve DRK im dreading the LD changes which is sad
god i hope death penalty is gone and walking dead last the full 10 seconds
we saw dark arts and soul survivor, also darkside icons
It appears at around the 9:50 mark of the video, the DRK gains it before expending all their HP for a giant purple attack. I assume it's what is keeping them from dying after that attack.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...-07_152148.png
btw i dont get it : yoshida said in a recent interview that somes jobs play feel will change significantly and they decided to make these changes even at the risk of players used to the jobs’ current feel getting confused. but when they show us changes in the last live letters, nothing big were changed... do you think its likely possible that we get alo more changes on dark knight? like dark art?