Alpha First Look: Video 5 - Quests and Combat

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Originally Posted by Davy

Ya cause you cant do that when you do quest as a group of friends.

Am I the only one that remembers this is Alpha, things are still being made and the guy is lvl 20. . .

I am SURE that the grizzly 50 everything Vets will have PLENTY to do.

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I could do it with a group of friends, but when I want to an experience party I like to do it with different people to make even more in-game friends.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I could do it with a group of friends, but when I want to an experience party I like to do it with different people to make even more in-game friends.

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Why are people so desperate for friends? Just use content finder if you want to make new friends.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

I have to admit, I did feel it to be a bit ... Tera-ish but I'll wait and see what other footage is released. It's Alpha and all and maybe showing the quest along with the battle footage gave me that feeling. If I saw one or the other, meh who knows?

My only REAL complaint in these videos; why the hell is the camera right up on the character?! Can I get a little zoom out FFS? I almost feel a bit claustrophobic. :-s

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You sir can shut it! :)

Yours Truly,
Davy "Sing Bitch" Jones

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Here's the thing..

When you play a WoW-like MMO, level progression is always the same.

1. Go to Quest Hub
2. Obtain all Quest in the Area
3. Leave Quest Hub
4. Complete simple Quest Objectives listed above
5. Return to Quest Hub
6. Move to Next Quest Hub

This is mindless, repetitive and boring. Worse than that though, it makes people not want to read the Quests. They serve no purpose but XP. This severely degrades the enjoyability of the game. You might as well be doing an FFXI Party grind. At least in a party grind, your not alone.

The fix, is very simple.

1. Go to NPC Hub
2. Select One Quest
3. Proceed to Location
4. Complete simple Quest Objective
5. Something Dangerous happens
6. Quest Objective - Run for your life
7. Get Saved by something
8. Examine the Previous Danger
9. Get call on your Linkshell from Quest Giver
10. Investigate what caused the danger
11. Get lead to some cool location like a dungeon
12. Unlocks a new area
13. Complete a starter objective in the dungeon
14. Bring your Findings to the NPC

The Quests demonstrated in the Alpha video are the painfully boring cookie cutter WoW-Clone Quests that have destroyed this Genre by turning MMOs in to Single Player games. By simply adding plot twists and adding additional objectives to quests, you remove the boring NPC > Kill > NPC and create a Miniature story progression. Players will become immersed in the world and pushed to explore if the quest spontaneously pushes them away from their original destination and grouping will be Promoted by guiding players to group combat zones or boss fights.

NPC > Kill > NPC is the reason every WoW-Clone has failed to hold the attention of Modern Players.

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You sound just POSiTIVE that will be the only option for the 100's of quests promised to us. NPC > Kill >Npc? There is NO possible way it could contain other quests (out of 100's of possible quests) that follow more along the format you laid out?
I bet you will still play this though and pay money to do so. So whats worse? A game designed after something that you yourself have stated is responsible for destroying the genre? Or someone that knowingly pays money to support said game they just "knew" was cookie cutter while at the same time condemning it?
You see how this is making people that say things like this look?

There is of course a third option. One that plays out in real time and is, IMO, whats going to happen. You will buy the game even though your SURE its a WOW clone (or try it anyway, you may not even pay a cent to do so being a vet) because, while the cynic in you is just SURE that its going to suck, the small little optimist in you that wants this game to do well, besides all the evidence you claim to provide to the contrary based on a 5 min alpha video, wants it to be good and do well. All thats left in this 3rd option is to see how things play out, but at least this way, if it doesn't go the way you want, you can then jump back on the forums and say I TOLD YOU SO for three to six months before moving on to something else. See you on here in april either way I guess man. Way to stand for something.

Have really been impressed with the last 2 alpha vids, getting very excited for 2.0 now!

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Seriously. Gamers are far smarter than this nonsense.

What a cop-out.

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Hahaha no their not lol.

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Originally Posted by Kyra

Have really been impressed with the last 2 alpha vids, getting very excited for 2.0 now!



Hahaha no their not lol.

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I don't see why people think you have to be a rocket scientist to play an MMO. Crazy. This is not a cop-out, it's called convenience.

You know how you don't have to use dial up because of wifi?
You know how you can use cell phones instead of a land-line?
You know how you can drive your car to the convenient store instead of walk.

Same shit.

Or do you just want the first 3 digits of a phone number for a person you need to call, and figure out the rest of the digits for yourself?

Edit: Sorry, this isn't directed at you but at everyone who feels that this game requires a high-school degree to play at their elite level.

Quests can be easy, honestly I don't care. Plus, it's user friendly just like every other MMO out there.
It's the boss fights and dungeons that I want an actual challenge.

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Originally Posted by Genjuro

See I agree. When you initiate a levequest you go and fight the same mobs at the same level over and over again. Take away the leve initiation and you're still fighting mobs over and over again. Same thing with the "WoW Method." They are all different methods to the same end, grinding.

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So what is the something special then? If all experience is a series of triggers and killing, what could make it unique?

The directorship? The interconnectivity? How interesting the plot points and fights are by themselves?

I don't disagree that be it mob grinds, leve grinds, or quest grinds, the only difference to the xp-expedient is amount of time between killing ex-reward triggers.

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On a side note though, just a small example with no defense intended, I enjoyed mob grinds over leve grinds because I was able to focus on my learning additional bits and practicalities of combat. In leves it simply felt unnecessarily mangled, distracting. In 1.0 quests, I really felt connected with the story. Regardless of xp, that was worth something to me. And if the mere triggers that compose those quests could be more widely used, so that they further felt a more fully integrated part of the world-exploration and leveling experience, that's just one of many ways they could be something really great.

And... a side note from the other side...
When going through generic WoW quests (in WoW, in this case), the less directed quests were often more fun. In other words, I'd often take the "kill large number of X" over the quicker, more story-based quests. This might sound contradictory to my enjoyment of 1.0 quests, but trust me, it's not. When given the length of time to really play around with a setting, or combat with a certain type of mob, etc, I was able to develop something more of my own. Often, the simple rare mob and slightly humorous dialog (if there were enough possibilities) added much more than the text leading to the quest, though this was especially true when the quest-text and those features coincided.

Back in those days, my interest was more on developing each quest as a setting for an experience, rather than a requirement checklist for experience points. I still believe that, while difficult, this is an admiral target for development.

Use of concept in mob-grinding

Real quick though: given all that, I do think this same kind of improvement can be done with mob-grinding too. When mite-grinding for the first time, there did seem to be enough unique between the party and the playing field that I felt I'd have the chance to progressively master this kind of fighting. My second time mite-grinding was a loop-system instead, through Copperbell Mines, and simply by switching classes it too felt highly different. I think there's a lot that can be done to vary the way these grinds can progress, perhaps with newer mechanics in un-instanced dungeons.

Let's take that same underground mite-grinding environment but add these:
- More types of mites, spawning due to relatively intentionally triggers (shouldn't be accidentally popped)
- Quick sand fields from large mites fleeing, some of them (noticeably different) leading to different areas
- Different mobs within the dungeon killable for
- War-horns mounted to some of the pillars, some meant to bring in mites, others meant to repel them.
--> leads to some mad retreats from horn to horn, or taking a center position to moves all mites to your location before diving down a hole to a different area, etc
--> A small percentage of mobs in type and number will try to get through anyways and destroy the horn to stop you from blowing it.
- In general, the entire instance is an intelligent enough computer, rather than just a spawning-zone, if you so choose (and trigger), and challenge should come with fair reward. These are simple enough ideas, but with good design they can make the previously tedious a highly enjoyable, highly replayable experience.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

I don't see why people think you have to be a rocket scientist to play an MMO. Crazy. This is not a cop-out, it's called convenience.

You know how you don't have to use dial up because of wifi?
You know how you can use cell phones instead of a land-line?
You know how you can drive your car to the convenient store instead of walk.

Same shit.

Or do you just want the first 3 digits of a phone number for a person you need to call, and figure out the rest of the digits for yourself?

Edit: Sorry, this isn't directed at you but at everyone who feels that this game requires a high-school degree to play at their elite level.

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Speed-dial is convenient for calling someone.
'Follow the arrow' is convenient for killing mobs.

But then, what happened to the 'quest' part in "quests"?

Or do we merely want 'auto-run and follow' for bonus xp on your next (x) kills upon return?

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Why are people so desperate for friends? Just use content finder if you want to make new friends.

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Because why would I bother playing an MMO if you don't have others to enjoy playing with?

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Because why would I bother playing an MMO if you don't have others to enjoy playing with?

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You don't have others to enjoy playing the game with? I didn't know you needed to do EXP parties to make friends.

You really dont need to do any of the content with someone to be their friend. The normal party size is 8. I'm sure If I am doing something with 7 other people, the other X people that aren't in my party that I am friends with before are still my friends.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

You don't have others to enjoy playing the game with? I didn't know you needed to do EXP parties to make friends.

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I do. I like experience grinding because it gives you something to do and it takes a while. Therefore you get have conversations while exping, versus a quest/event where maybe people don't want to talk. It happened in XI and WoW alot so I didn't have a large social/friend list.

The few people I actually talked to alot, I met through exp parties which is why I find exp parties superior than quest leveling/soloing.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

Oh yea, that was my point, lol. Many games have these unique quests that people dreadfully want so bad. I was going to say that Guild Wars 2 actually has those type of quests as well.

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You're agreeing to the parameters that are quoting you. Hmm... I wonder if the Elexia had the same inference as to what she meant as you when you responded to her... I get the feeling this at some point left the whole back-and-forth thing one expects when calling the opposition wrong. ...Why do straw-men come to mind at a time like this?

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

Wow, words coming from a hypocrite. You have not yet said anything substantial as to how the questing system is better and, in fact, did exactly what you claim others against your argument have done, and that's jump to a conclusion.

It's not hard to defend. It's plain and simple. These are quests that are not intricate and can be done on a solo basis. It doesn't require 11 hours to do, like the quests you dream of, so you can get something accomplished if you have some to little time to play.

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I can't remember the last time my progress in an intricate quest was reset each time I logged... In fact, outside of instanced dungeons, I don't think there ever was one. It is really so bad that I get 15 minutes of progress towards a quest versus 15 minutes of progress towards a quest-chain (where I can turn one in every 15)? If it's the triggers that bug you, we already have quest continuations 'on-the-go' in 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

And how was spiritbond leveling fun? Seriously? You're opposed to repetitive quests, but you will grind the same group of monsters for 10 hours for some self-accomplishment? Hypocrites.

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Let's, just for a moment, assume that both are equally fun, after all they're both mostly killing. And killing is fun, right? Incredibly fun. Like... let's say... a really great party, or sex. Would you rather have a good long party, or stop every couple minutes and restart?

Also, "self-accomplishment"? Normally spirit-bonding is the point of all the spirit-bonding parties I see. Though, I suppose have gone to a couple just for fun.

Let's consider it in the other light. Both tasks suck, questing and things like spirit-bonding. Would you rather have the task that's done in a continuous block of time long enough to get better at the actual combat or mechanics involved, joke about it, make friends while you're at it, or simply see if you can talk, ride, kill, ride, talk faster than the next guy?

Call me a casual (or is it hardcore because it takes more time per event) but I like to be able to sink into doing something, and that was largely what made FFXIV special for me, be it gathering or grinding or whatever else.

I doubt this is so much a hatred of all things repetitive as a hatred of things that don't have enough time or depth to even recognize intricacy when its available. (That said, a good quest design may well skip that problem.)

Personally they should keep grind as a good way to level for people who don't like to spam quests. Instead of doing it the old SE in screwing someone over why not go the route that will make everyone happy?

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

This is how you make level progression, repetitive, mindless and boring if you have no imagination and have decided instead to just copy almost every other MMO for the past 8 years with the same repetitive "kill x of y" crap.

Talk about uninspired and derivative.

And why even have the quest dialog in there at all? Hell even the person in the video isn't taking the time to read it. And why bother? They have *3* different indicators showing you exactly where to go for the kill quest, and 2 showing you where to go for the "moist depression".

"Well, we have all this dialog but, you probably won't read it anyway. But, in case you do, you're probably too dumb to figure out where we're directing you to. So, we'll show you on the mini-map. And because you're probably too dumb to realize the circle on the mini-map indicates where you should be, we'll put markers for the mobs on the mini map too. Now don't panic... We know you're too dumb to figure it out even then. We've accounted for that by also putting large markers over the mobs' heads in-game too. You don't even have to know what the mobs are called or what they look like. Just look for the big, intrusive golden markers walking around."

For the other quest.. "go to the clearly marked, pulsating markers on your mini-map and look for the moist depression. Okay, you're too dumb to figure out the purple hazy looking spots that just happen to be exactly in the same spot as the mini-map markers are likely them, and you're probably too much of a mouth-breather to figure out that targeting those spots will tell you what they are. So, don't worry. We'll make sure to have the words "moist depression" hovering over them as well. Hopefully it's not too presumptuous of us to assume you can read big words like "depression".

"See? We have your time in mind! We know you don't want to be bogged down with boring stuff like interesting content that actually requires your participation, attention and, you know... usage of your brain (I mean, pfft.. who wants to use that?). We realize what you're really interested in is getting all this boring gameplay stuff out of the way so you can get back to serious stuff... like jumping up and down on tents."

Give me a freaking break already with this patronizing, hand-holding "we will show you exactly where everything is so you don't even have to try" crap already. Seriously. Gamers are far smarter than this nonsense.

What a cop-out.

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You should TOTALLY go back to your D20 system/LARP group where all your "imagination" and "inspiration" belong. I mean seriously....what "intellectual" comes TO the mouth-breathers and cries to them about how the game they all like and enjoy is nonsense and a cop-out? Go away little boy and leave us to our entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So what is the something special then? If all experience is a series of triggers and killing, what could make it unique?

The directorship? The interconnectivity? How interesting the plot points and fights are by themselves?

I don't disagree that be it mob grinds, leve grinds, or quest grinds, the only difference to the xp-expedient is amount of time between killing ex-reward triggers.

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I don't know if such a thing as unique will be accepted by the majority of the population. I have stated in other posts before that we tried different and unique and that went down the crapper in 1.0.

I believe that having multiple methods would allow for people to explore their characters to the fullest extent in much the same way that you have had your experiences. Some may want to just grind as I have done in the past and am used to. Some may want levequests and the "WoW Method" to mask the monotony of grinding.

This is a game therefore the concept of "having fun" should be embedded into it's soul somewhere. What "having fun" means is personal to each person, therefore presenting all avenues would temper the water for everyone to explore the methods of each.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

How are you forced to read the quest dialog? You don't have to read a word of it. You can tell even the person in that video isn't reading it - unless they're a speed reader (not likely).

You can choose to read it, just as you can in WoW, or LoTRO or Rift or any other MMO based on that template over the last 8 years. But by no means are you "forced" to, nor is it even necessary. Every step of the way is clearly pointed out to you. Just follow the glowing map markers and huge golden icons floating around on your screen.

ARR is doing nothing different or better than any of those. It's a copy and paste of those same quest systems... and I use the term "quest" extremely lightly.

What this video shows are nothing more than mindless busy work, making you run around doing mundane tasks for a reward. They could just as well cut out the "running around" part and just give you the reward for managing to successfully click through all the dialog screens.

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Did it ever occur to you that maybe they were skipping through it ON PURPOSE? Developers sometimes do that when they're showcasing something and have limited time in which to do so. Get over it. I'am 99.999999% positive that this is not an actual player going through this content, thus to make the observation that "Oh hey, even they're skipping through the dialogue lolololol" makes you look rather lobotomised.

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Originally Posted by Mortechai

You should TOTALLY go back to your D20 system/LARP group where all your "imagination" and "inspiration" belong. I mean seriously....what "intellectual" comes TO the mouth-breathers and cries to them about how the game they all like and enjoy is nonsense and a cop-out? Go away little boy and leave us to our entertainment.

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Am I now grouped as a 'mouth-breather' because I'm part of the forum Prey posted for? That kind of hurts.

Personally, I have to question the intelligence of anyone thinks players should be FORCED to read quest dialogue. What ever happened to personal choice and individual play-style? Just because YOU like reading quest dialogue, that doesn't mean everyone else does. An intelligent game designer realizes that different people have different play-styles, and that not everyone is interested in story. Some people just want to get out there and kill shit, and couldn't care less about the story behind their monster slaying. Making quest dialogue skippable in no way detracts from the gameplay experience of people who don't want to skip it. If you don't like skipping quest dialogue, then don't. Problem solved. Seriously, stop berating people just because they have a different play-style than you, and stop insisting that the gameplay be designed to force everyone to play your way.

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Originally Posted by Rhianu

Personally, I have to question the intelligence of anyone thinks players should be FORCED to read quest dialogue. What ever happened to personal choice and individual play-style? Just because YOU like reading quest dialogue, that doesn't mean everyone else does. An intelligent game designer realizes that different people have different play-styles, and that not everyone is interested in story. Some people just want to get out there and kill shit, and couldn't care less about the story behind their monster slaying. Making quest dialogue skippable in no way detracts from the gameplay experience of people who don't want to skip it. If you don't like skipping quest dialogue, then don't. Problem solved. Seriously, stop berating people just because they have a different play-style than you, and stop insisting that the gameplay be designed to force everyone to play your way.

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How many Final Fantasy games in the main series have you played that let players "skip" all of the dialogue and story? While designing the game for multiple groups is important, at the same time XIV is not for "Everyone". It's for "Final Fantasy" fans. The FF series has always promoted story telling as it's main asset and Yoshi-P repeatedly refers to the FF storyline when asked what sets XIV apart.

I honestly don't think I'll ever understand why online FF titles attract so many gamers not interested in the story line. Kinda missing the whole point of the franchise.

The low-level quests should start out really easy.

I think the Devs are right on track with this video for the starting quests. However, the hand-holding should decrease as player level increases.

At least give us an option to toggle the beacons and markers on and off so that we can actually search for the hunt, key items, and NPC's involved in questing!

I think there is a difference between building the main story and building the lore of the world and bringing the world to life. I cant expect all of the 300+ quests to be integral to the development of the main overarching story. Some of them will be people living in the world who have real problems of their own. Their garden is constantly attacked by squirrels, a child who lost their parents, or a City guard needing extra shields for the new recruits, this brings the world to life and you get a feel that "real" people live here. I dont want or need every quest and battle to be an epic struggle.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Why are people so desperate for friends? Just use content finder if you want to make new friends.

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lmao it's a online game, people expect to play with others. what is the point of it being online then? it can just be a Massively less quality graphics, Multiplayerless, Offline Roll Playing Game, then. i don't think anyone here is desperate for friends, i think most are trying to destroy community and party play enjoyment for there own selfish needs. too many people butt hurt cause they sat in a city doing nothing while the rest of us was having a great time and not waiting around for others to do everything for them. witch shows how much easier and easier mmo's need to become to comply to this type of need and thinking.

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Originally Posted by Rhianu

Personally, I have to question the intelligence of anyone thinks players should be FORCED to read quest dialogue. What ever happened to personal choice and individual play-style?

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I don't think I've seen a single person suggest that players should be forced to read the text. As far as I can tell, the only complaint about how Quests are completed that I have seen is; You should not be pointed directly to every Quest Objective.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

I think there is a difference between building the main story and building the lore of the world and bringing the world to life. I cant expect all of the 300+ quests to be integral to the development of the main overarching story. Some of them will be people living in the world who have real problems of their own. Their garden is constantly attacked by squirrels, a child who lost their parents, or a City guard needing extra shields for the new recruits, this brings the world to life and you get a feel that "real" people live here. I dont want or need every quest and battle to be an epic struggle.

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I would agree that not every quest needs to be an epic adventure. I just also believe the majority of the quests should not be so simple.

"Hi, can you kill this" > Kill > "Thanks, here's an Item"

It is one thing to have random NPCs that just need a Favor. It is a whole other issue if every Quest in the game is that simple and points you straight to the objective.

There isn't that much difference in the development between creating 5 throw away quests and 1 deep quest that last as long as 5 throw aways.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

You sound just POSiTIVE that will be the only option for the 100's of quests promised to us. NPC > Kill >Npc? There is NO possible way it could contain other quests (out of 100's of possible quests) that follow more along the format you laid out?
I bet you will still play this though and pay money to do so. So whats worse? A game designed after something that you yourself have stated is responsible for destroying the genre? Or someone that knowingly pays money to support said game they just "knew" was cookie cutter while at the same time condemning it?
You see how this is making people that say things like this look?

There is of course a third option. One that plays out in real time and is, IMO, whats going to happen. You will buy the game even though your SURE its a WOW clone (or try it anyway, you may not even pay a cent to do so being a vet) because, while the cynic in you is just SURE that its going to suck, the small little optimist in you that wants this game to do well, besides all the evidence you claim to provide to the contrary based on a 5 min alpha video, wants it to be good and do well. All thats left in this 3rd option is to see how things play out, but at least this way, if it doesn't go the way you want, you can then jump back on the forums and say I TOLD YOU SO for three to six months before moving on to something else. See you on here in april either way I guess man. Way to stand for something.

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First off, Read before you respond. You just sound like a fool.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

It's not about being sure. Forums are about feedback and debate. Silence Means Concession. I don't know if they are only doing simple WoW-clone quest, but I'm not going to sit by quietly while they demonstrate that they are doing them at all.

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More importantly, I will not play this game if it becomes a WoW-like Quest Grind. Oversimplified quest that point you to all objectives are boring and a waste of time. There is no fun in it. I have never paid to play one before and FFXIV will be no different.

Final Fantasy is my favorite game series by far and without competition. The last three have been complete crap. If Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn is a WoW-Clone Quest Grind with no Depth, I will not play it and I will probably never buy another Final Fantasy Game again.

Not being irrational, just sick of watching my Favorite Series die a slow painful death.

Jin, I love ya bro. You're a fun guy to play with and chat with. I'm just saying this because I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

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I could do it with a group of friends, but when I want to an experience party I like to do it with different people to make even more in-game friends.

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I played FFXI for 4 years. I was a WHM and EXP Partied every day, trying to be the best WHM I could.

Despite this, I can't recall any exp PUG I was in where people said, "Hey, you're a good WHM. Let's be friends and play together more often!"

Nor was I ever invited to an endgame linkshell for my grinding efforts. Most I ever got was an, "Oh hey, you're that WHM I partied with the other day, I think. Yeah... Sorry I only really remember people if they suck at their jobs."

It was also the case in XI that level difference meant you couldn't party with someone anymore. So if you played at a different pace of your friends, even if you friended them they wouldn't be able to EXP with you again due to level difference. (Level sync solved some of this, but not all. Generally, if everyone was too high for Colibri groups, they went and did their own things instead)

My point being - Whether it's dungeon content finder or EXP Party grinding, You don't necessarily make friends via these methods. More often than not, you're either already part of a social group or you insert yourself into a linkshell/guild as soon as you can.

You make friends by being a socially amiable person, and by going out of your way to help others. This is true in any social interaction, regardless of the game. Doesn't matter if it's EXP grinding or dungeon raiding.

So please stop trying to use this as an argument for EXP party Grinding vs solo quest content.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

I played FFXI for 4 years. I was a WHM and EXP Partied every day, trying to be the best WHM I could.

Despite this, I can't recall any exp PUG I was in where people said, "Hey, you're a good WHM. Let's be friends and play together more often!"

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In contrast, I met all of my In-game friends and got invited to all of my Linkshells from people acknowledging how good I was in a PUG.

Personally, I don't trust someone I've never partied with. I would not invite them to my Endgame Linkshell. I certainly would not put them in a situation where they could Ninja my Linkshells drops.

Only thing I can think of that is worse than inviting people you've never played with, is inviting people you've never played with after making them fill out an application...

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Originally Posted by Kiote

First off, Read before you respond. You just sound like a fool.



More importantly, I will not play this game if it becomes a WoW-like Quest Grind. Oversimplified quest that point you to all objectives are boring and a waste of time. There is no fun in it. I have never paid to play one before and FFXIV will be no different.

Final Fantasy is my favorite game series by far and without competition. The last three have been complete crap. If Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn is a WoW-Clone Quest Grind with no Depth, I will not play it and I will probably never buy another Final Fantasy Game again.

Not being irrational, just sick of watching my Favorite Series die a slow painful death.

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Quest grinding is mindless?

Hmm...

So what are your thoughts about monster grinding? in exp parties? Is that somehow...thought provoking?

I think I'm missing something.

I posted this on a different thread but i think it applies to the conversation here as well. Forgive me if this is a taboo thing to do but here it is.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

I agree that end game and the Hardcore players need to have lots of challenging content to keep them long term, this give an MMO sustainability. Appealing to casual alone is a nail in the coffin for an MMO, once they move on as casuals do then those subs disappear. How much time did you spend at the lower levels in FFXI (just being curious not trying to needle) VS how much time you spent at end game? How memorable was the early stuff? I do hope for a decent end game to keep players busy for more than a month (look how fast the Primals were beaten and that was supposed to be the hardest content.)

By the same token I think the early to mid levels should be about learning how to play, how the game functions, and how to work well in party play. This is aimed at the casual or beginner player and it should be this way. If it is hardcore through and through then you will never get a new audience or build a more steady player base. To date they have shown us one starting area, a 5 min demo of two (out of 300+ quests), all at level 5-12. So far everything seems quite good and paced well for beginners and newcomers. For the hardcore, you will fly through this on your way to end game and will probably forget all about it anyway, so why the worry?

If the team does not try to include the new/casual as well as generate epic end game content then the game will probably die off like so many before. I'm not to worried about that honestly. I have not seen a Dev team so devoted to listening to their players and dedicated to making a game succeed as this one in all my years of gaming. It looks like they have a solid core system down now that has much more room for development than the previous one. Watching 1.0 evolve into what it was in the end given what they had to work with, I can't see this team stopping after launch. This is the nature of an MMO, it is constantly evolving.

I too have my concerns but I'm not the type of person that only focuses on the negative. The world is too diverse to focus all the devs resources on trying to appeal to one particular niche group, remember that at one point you were a "noob" too. we all were. I seriously doubt at 5 years old when you picked up your first game that you aced that in a day. I only wish people were more considerate about new players and wanted to include them too. We all have to start somewhere and if someone chooses to start am MMO with FFXIV, I want them to enjoy it and continue to play until they are a hardcore too. don't you?

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

Quest grinding is mindless?

Hmm...

So what are your thoughts about monster grinding? in exp parties? Is that somehow...thought provoking?

I think I'm missing something.

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You are missing something. I have not advocated Monster Grinding, but it does have one advantage over Quest Grinding.

Monster Grind Parties are Social. You do not play a Grinding MMO alone.

What I have been advocating is removing the mindless simplicity from Quest Grinding and turning it in to Questing.

Quest grinding can be made fun by extending the duration of individual quests and linking them to party based Boss fights.

It is a lot easier to run a Quest in a Party when you don't have to hope everyone has the same cluster. More importantly, it allows the quest to have substance. Not just flavor text.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

I posted this on a different thread but i think it applies to the conversation here as well. Forgive me if this is a taboo thing to do but here it is.

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So true. I wish people were actually considerate and actually thought outside their box for once.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

You are missing something. I have not advocated Monster Grinding, but it does have one advantage over Quest Grinding.

Monster Grind Parties are Social. You do not play a Grinding MMO alone.

What I have been advocating is removing the mindless simplicity from Quest Grinding and turning it in to Questing.

Quest grinding can be made fun by extending the duration of individual quests and linking them to party based Boss fights.

It is a lot easier to run a Quest in a Party when you don't have to hope everyone has the same cluster. More importantly, it allows the quest to have substance. Not just flavor text.

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I wasn't missing it, I knew it was implied because you didn't mention it. And what you're saying is strictly opinion based. People have shouted for spiritbond/exp parties since chains have been included in the game. Of all of them I've joined, and I'm sure most can agree, 80% of them had no social aspect to them aside from, "Can you please cure?!?" or "Why are you still behind that gate?", and "Is that group really going to come here and take our mobs?"

Being social in a party is completely by choice. Just like asking someone to help you do a side-quest, also a choice.

From your experience, you have not played a grinding MMO alone. And quest grinding can be made fun for you for your reason. They already have the F.A.T.E system that will be doing something similar to your request.

It's a lot easier to do everything in this game if you're in a party. But some people actually have FUN tackling things alone. I know you're thinking "MMOs aren't meant to be played alone!" But games evolve dude. It's the same idea for console games that people enjoy, they wish they could play with their friends. GTA for example. The opposite is happening for MMOS. Offer a multiplayer and singleplayer experience.

Making this questing system that you want would mean that people who don't have much time to play won't get shit done. They come online, try to find a party, wait 3 hours they had to enjoy the game, and then sign off because they only managed to get 5 of the 8 people they needed for this questing system.

And what game(s) has this thorough questing system that you want in ARR so bad? I want to try it out.

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For the hardcore, you will fly through this on your way to end game and will probably forget all about it anyway, so why the worry?

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It is a pretty big assumption that Hardcore players simply want to fly through content to the Endgame. I think you may be confusing Hardcore players and Elitists. Where Elitist care only about having the best stuff at the highest level, true Hardcore players are more focused on having Endless and Entertaining game play that they will enjoy for years to come. Not a completely hollow unmemorable experience that culminates in repeating the same endgame dungeons a hundred times.

For me, in every MMO I have ever played, the most memorable moments are:

The first time I get to explore the starting city.
The first time I get a party.
The first time I hit Level Cap.
The time I finally beat the Epic Boss that was preventing me from moving forward with a Story.

Endgame Content, when made well, is fun, but it does not compare to the experience of getting to Endgame.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

I wasn't missing it, I knew it was implied because you didn't mention it. And what you're saying is strictly opinion based. People have shouted for spiritbond/exp parties since chains have been included in the game. Of all of them I've joined, and I'm sure most can agree, 80% of them had no social aspect to them aside from, "Can you please cure?!?" or "Why are you still behind that gate?", and "Is that group really going to come here and take our mobs?"

Being social in a party is completely by choice. Just like asking someone to help you do a side-quest, also a choice.

From your experience, you have not played a grinding MMO alone. And quest grinding can be made fun for you for your reason. They already have the F.A.T.E system that will be doing something similar to your request.

It's a lot easier to do everything in this game if you're in a party. But some people actually have FUN tackling things alone. I know you're thinking "MMOs aren't meant to be played alone!" But games evolve dude. It's the same idea for console games that people enjoy, they wish they could play with their friends. GTA for example. The opposite is happening for MMOS. Offer a multiplayer and singleplayer experience.

Making this questing system that you want would mean that people who don't have much time to play won't get shit done. They come online, try to find a party, wait 3 hours they had to enjoy the game, and then sign off because they only managed to get 5 of the 8 people they needed for this questing system.

And what game(s) has this thorough questing system that you want in ARR so bad? I want to try it out.

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And there you go jumping to Conclusions again. I am not advocating Monster Grinding. I do not think it is the best way to do things. I am also not saying all quests should require a party. I said in depth quests would better promote party play because it would be easier to have the same quest as other people.

You are correct in your assumption that I have never played a Party Grind MMO alone. I mean honestly, that would just be stupid. You don't play a party grind MMO alone.

I have, however, played a Quest Grinding MMO alone. This is, of course, not by choice. The biggest problem Quest Grinding MMOs is they push people away from Parties. While I agree that people should not be forced to party to advance in an MMO, I do not think the game should be developed in a way that makes partying completely Obsolete.

Quest Grinding makes Partying Obsolete.

I dunno, most hardcores I've met seem to fly through the leveling process as soon as they can just to get to max level so they can participate in end game. I was guilty in this in WoW, although admittedly it was on subsequent characters other than my first and I had already read all the quest text, so I just skipped through everything. That's not to say that some people don't care about the story (some people clearly don't) and will just skip through the text and get to the task at hand.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Quest Grinding makes Partying Obsolete.

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That's not true at all. Yoshi-P has said that major arcs in the main storyline will require parties to complete. There's also dungeons that can be done in between as well as end-game content. There will always be people grouping together. It shouldn't matter how people level up. It's just a means to an end.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Monster Grind Parties are Social. You do not play a Grinding MMO alone.

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Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong
I'm sure that RO was not as grindy as XI, but still.
I remember those days when I first started playing RO, I did so much grinding alone. So many levels, I got my thief all the way up to Assassin alone... I got my Acolyte almost up to Priest alone, no parties. Not for my own desire either.

I could only find friends in my server when I searched for a thing that was completely unrelated to the game itself, but it was ran into it anyway, an RPing community. That's when I first made some friends, when I finally started partying for grinding.

So excuse-me if I will not accept you telling me that. Monster-grinding does not makes you meet new people, seeking out new people makes you meet new people.

Also i'm every bit as willing to say that you're a fringe case as you're probably willing to tell me I am

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Originally Posted by Kiote

And there you go jumping to Conclusions again. I am not advocating Monster Grinding. I do not think it is the best way to do things. I am also not saying all quests should require a party. I said in depth quests would better promote party play because it would be easier to have the same quest as other people.

You are correct in your assumption that I have never played a Party Grind MMO alone. I mean honestly, that would just be stupid. You don't play a party grind MMO alone.

I have, however, played a Quest Grinding MMO alone. This is, of course, not by choice. The biggest problem Quest Grinding MMOs is they push people away from Parties. While I agree that people should not be forced to party to advance in an MMO, I do not think the game should be developed in a way that makes partying completely Obsolete.

Quest Grinding makes Partying Obsolete.

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It was not jumping to conclusions, I was only addressing the issue as it was brought up, chill. It's called creating a counterpoint, that's how papers are well written.

In any case, where did this "Party" Grinding MMO come from? You only said Grinding MMO. But it doesn't matter what you said because you're wrong. Quest Grinding does not make partying obsolete at all. Tera uses this formula and I don't recall a moment where I could accomplish anything alone, and if I could, it was not worth the time. :/. And that game requires more skill, and by that, I mean, my control is probably what will lead me to my death as opposed to my stats. I digress.

Quest Grinding mmos do NOT push people away from parties. Here is the simple fact that you and others don't get, it's the community that wants to PLAY ALONE! I bet if I want to party with someone for a leve or a side-quest, the game will not stop me.

Developers have thought past the forcing party restriction to get shit done. You know why? Because when people are done with the content, they do not go back. So what do the people who can't get that shit done do, to level up? They do quests.

In depth quests don't promote party play man...it just doesn't. Quests that can't be done alone "promotes" party play. Look at XI. I'm sure if players had the option/skill to do a lot of those quests alone, they would.

It's not the games, it's the players. Just make friends and do all your quests in a party, and you'll be good. But wait....they'll be too easy. And that's the next problem.

Helping this precarious conversation along to the Tangent Lands...

I have made friends in monster-slaying grinding parties. I have made friends in quest-slaying parties. But the only reason I ever did was because I bothered to do so. I engaged the other players in dialogue and became friends with them -- often times I wasn't talking to them about what we were currently doing - but whatever my silly brain could think of to say.

And I've made even more friends in towns or walking along in some zone. I just see people passing by or doing something and I wave - I start emoting, sometimes roleplaying - I compliment people's appearances or I follow people around because I want to figure out what nefarious deeds they are up to (they are usually doing something innocent like buying or crafting stuff and wondering why this little guy is following them around). I make a lot of friends by being helplessly lost despite a map (navigational issues, me).

But the point is...I make friends because I make friends. Sure, certain systems might facilitate friendships more, but inevitably it all comes down to me. Do I speak? Am I friendly wherever I go? Do I explore the world and the people in it? We must use whatever system we are given to our advantage to make friends to grind or quest with. We can't expect some magical string of code that will do it for us.

Yeah.

/speech