What XIV can take from XI to make it better

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Originally Posted by Shougun

No shit? I don't remember that but red Mage was one of my later jobs.

Still.. Was this before it came to NA?

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Yeah, it was around the time they were still sorting everything out shortly after JP Beta, since it was supposed to have small proficiency in everything being the 'Jack of all Trades" excluding obvious choices like Axes etc.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Fits with the original RDM in XI, had access to x-bows and some guns lol.

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Rapiers and pistols would be fitting for musketeers/red mages.

It's too bad the armory system won't allow for a choice of weapons.

Edit: unless RDM was allowed to dual wield them instead of using a shield. (This would kill any hopes of RDM's tanking out-right)

The thread just lost a couple pages... lol

Here is the biggest thing IMO I think xi did way better than xiv is doing: creating a sense of national pride. The cities in xiv are gorgeous, more so than even the ones I came to love in xi, but they are utterly devoid of character. If you need proof then look no further than how quickly after launch everyone just began using uldah as a hub. Certainly I understand the multiple factors that play into why this happened, but I couldn't help but feel like this could have easily been avoided by creating a system that had players investing in their home country. Conquest was awesome but I am not looking for a cut and paste system of it in xiv. What they could do is have teams from each city that players can sign up for to be on that pvp against players from the other cities. Maybe incorporate gc seal standings in for each city each week for those that don't like pvp and offer npc items that are only available to the winning city each week. There really is no shortage of ways to do things like this, and somehow the original dev team chose none of them. I love Limsa, and only wish SE would show effort that reflects how much love they have for the things they created.

Aaaaannndd end rant -

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Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

Rapiers and pistols would be fitting for musketeers/red mages.

It's too bad the armory system won't allow for a choice of weapons.

Edit: unless RDM was allowed to dual wield them instead of using a shield. (This would kill any hopes of RDM's tanking out-right)

The thread just lost a couple pages... lol

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Noticed that.. :D


Anyhow, I'd like to see some longer quests like the explorer's etching quest in FFXI -- something that requires you to travel to all corners of the map, but can't be done in a day. ('Livin' on a Prayer' was along the lines of what I'm thinking of, but make it take much longer to finish)

Make the reward something benign yet relevant, like a globe or framed map for your house.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

creating a sense of national pride.

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I think they intended GC to do that. But without a central hub city like Jeuno, everyone just picked the most convenient one of the three starting city-states and hung out there.

Content Finder + linked AH (this confirmed?) + Player Housing, is the main plan to battle this in ARR.

If they really want people to hang out in their home town, they can do it best by adding the following:

• More lively cities - NPCs bustling about.
• More guild-centric content - creating 'request boards' where players can post orders and rewards for crafting and gathering.
• Restrict teleportation only to aetheryte you've physically visited before.
• Competition for control of regions (ala FFXI)
• Bonuses which are only active in regions you control (ala FFXI)

That's off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

-snip-

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Having a leader board type competition is great for prolonging the life of a game.

SE already does a good job with the GC Heroes idea. Possibly make it so these rankings give a bonus for the respective GC members?

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Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

Having a leader board type competition is great for prolonging the life of a game.

SE already does a good job with the GC Heroes idea. Possibly make it so these rankings give a bonus for the respective GC members?

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And put that somewhere in the game, not on a seperate board. Not to mention maybe give those people or their FC access to goods through npc's they couldnt normally get.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It's a bit of a conundrum because alot of how you diversified your character from others was often your gear choices. It's hard to differentiate yourself from others in XIV because there is 0 real diversity to work with.

You can't work on your Solo Evasion set, instead of beefing up your SATA gear. While I think gear is the wrong way to go in terms of larger diversity, the game really does need some depth to it. It's extremly shallow as it stands (Let's hope 2.0 fixes this a bit) But I can't imagine it will at launch.

We need something like Merits (Well thought out, so that it's not just a cookie cutter merit setup) Let people be creative with how they want their character to stand out from others preformance wise, encourage people to focus on only a few classes instead of encouraging people to slog through all the classes just for the cross class skills making them play something they don't like. If I want to be the best Blackmage I can be...why should I have to level a healer? FFXI actually had the same problem with the sub-job system but at least it capped out at half the max level making the trip rather short to a sub-job.

Hopefully when we play 2.0 my Dragoon might play a bit differently than the next Dragoon standing beside me.

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Wrong ....whoever did this was called out gimp... goal in FFXI was to always have the best piece for each situation slot by slot so everyone geared up towards to same

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Wrong ....whoever did this was called out gimp... goal in FFXI was to always have the best piece for each situation slot by slot so everyone geared up towards to same

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it still diversified people, it did it gear wise. no offense but people that want to rush threw can do it with others that want to rush threw it half naked. when people spend the 10-30k it took to gear up a little b4 say going to the dunes for first time and people say to others why the f' are you naked still then well it helps diversify lol. it's already more diverse then other mmo's where you usually end up leaving each tier zones in the best gear without trying.

you can't make people that take the time to play and gear up play with you, it won't happen. if anything they still will roll with people who play 10hrs a day rather then people who log in a few hours a week. why would someone pimp out in triple melds, get best gears in game, do 100's of hours of time and then party with half naked players in a party all day? i don't think they are elitist though some might be but i can see how they feel about it. people bitch at brd in ffxi back in day cause they only pt with best merit groups, but if you take the time to level a brd just for merit farming, and you have the best gears on any class for it. you dont' want to spend 2 or 4times the amount of time it would take for a group filled with like dressed players. and there isn't anything wrong with that. you save time on gearing, you waist some on slower leveling.

in the end though if they make everyone have the same sets of gear like mmo's like gw2 where you just spam a dungeon over and over for tokens and buy your crappy gear and then have nothing to do, the mmo's will die out and become a FTP. always having new gear to hunt is a good thing, situational are awesome, you can keep farming to diverse yourself from those who don't have them :)

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

it still diversified people, it did it gear wise. no offense but people that want to rush threw can do it with others that want to rush threw it half naked. when people spend the 10-30k it took to gear up a little b4 say going to the dunes for first time and people say to others why the f' are you naked still then well it helps diversify lol. it's already more diverse then other mmo's where you usually end up leaving each tier zones in the best gear without trying.

you can't make people that take the time to play and gear up play with you, it won't happen. if anything they still will roll with people who play 10hrs a day rather then people who log in a few hours a week. why would someone pimp out in triple melds, get best gears in game, do 100's of hours of time and then party with half naked players in a party all day? i don't think they are elitist though some might be but i can see how they feel about it. people bitch at brd in ffxi back in day cause they only pt with best merit groups, but if you take the time to level a brd just for merit farming, and you have the best gears on any class for it. you dont' want to spend 2 or 4times the amount of time it would take for a group filled with like dressed players. and there isn't anything wrong with that. you save time on gearing, you waist some on slower leveling.

in the end though if they make everyone have the same sets of gear like mmo's like gw2 where you just spam a dungeon over and over for tokens and buy your crappy gear and then have nothing to do, the mmo's will die out to FTP. always having new gear to hunt is a good thing, situational are awesome, you can keep farming to diverse yourself from those who don't have them :)

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how do FTP mmos fund themselves though? its a scare even with a game like GW2... what if they sold fewer then 100k copies... they would of been broke >.> and not released the game at all lol... FTP mmos are a huger risk then subscription MMOs even for investors... subscriptions are a solid thing that you know that your going to get paid when your waiting on box sells you don't know how your going to do >.>

sorry wasn't what i meant i rephrased that sentence ..mean ffxiv and any sub mmo will turn ftp cause of failure.

What can FFXIV take from FFXI to make it better? 10 years of a stable game and 5 expansions worth of content.....

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Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

Rapiers and pistols would be fitting for musketeers/red mages.

It's too bad the armory system won't allow for a choice of weapons.

Edit: unless RDM was allowed to dual wield them instead of using a shield. (This would kill any hopes of RDM's tanking out-right)

The thread just lost a couple pages... lol

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this is not necessarily the case, there are ways to allow more than one weapon per class. a class select box pop up for weapons is just one way to solve this issue.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Wrong ....whoever did this was called out gimp...

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Wrong whoever did what you suggest is a Elitist.

Even the most hardcore Elitists had to pick and choose what gear sets they worked on first, and therefore unless you had everything the game had to offer the chances are you had a much different gear set than most at the end of the game. There were a few standalone peices that people used as fill-in between the higher tiers of gear but chances are you were always wanting for one item or another.

So I guess everyone in XI was gimp becasue it was very rare to have every item for every slot you wanted.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Wrong whoever did what you suggest is a Elitist.

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False.

In XI, your gear was indicative of your build. There was no way to play "Your way" and still be good at the game. Rather than having a cookie-cutter talent setup; your gear was what made you cookie-cutter.

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Originally Posted by TomCarroll

False.

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So not having a Ridill made someone gimp?

I'm sorry but even the most hardened players struggled to get some of the best items in the game, so in turn calling everyone who didn't have the best gear setup "Gimp" is the most illogical thing you could do.

I'm not sure your understanding what I am saying, the poster I quoted seems to call anyone not top-notch geared "Gimp" when in turn not a single person in the game was top notch geared (At least post 75 cap) That was the point of the game there was always a slot that you could work on to make your character better. If you had everything the game had to offer you quickly lost interest in the game and left it happened to many Relic weapon players in the early days.

Having the hands down best items in the game, makes it stale really quick (Merits helped this out alot as well) Gear was a long term goal in the game and you were always working on your gear sets. The only time I'd call someone gimp is if they had a "Weaponskill setup" that did nothing for their weaponskills and just didn't actually try.

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Originally Posted by TomCarroll

False.

In XI, your gear was indicative of your build. There was no way to play "Your way" and still be good at the game. Rather than having a cookie-cutter talent setup; your gear was what made you cookie-cutter.

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I've seen plenty DRGs solo "their way" without having an Ares body piece, you know the "required" body piece for DRG solo?

You guys know that you're giving extreme examples...

Bear with my 2009 example:

If you tried to tank anything pld/nin with less than 15% gear haste, you were performing an exercise in futility. If you were a DPS without a TP and at least 1 WS set, you were gimp.

The point I was trying to make, was that in XI, you were always just as good as your gear, because there was no other way to build your character. (Outside of merits, I guess. But I think we can all agree that the merit point system was an afterthought at best, and was no real way to build a character.)

Yeah gear mattered especially in term of sets, but I think it's more the idea of that being the only thing that matters is actually incorrect. I tanked better as PLD/NIN than others with the best gear. There's still a skill requirement because as seen in XIV people with relics and garuda weapons can still suck donkey dick meanwhile the poor little noobie with only their GC weapon is whopping asses and pillaging booty like no tomorrow.

Gear supplements a good player.

Gear does not make a good player.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Gear supplements a good player.

Gear does not make a good player.

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You're absolutely correct, I don't disagree with you there. XI was a rare example of skill and gear being fairly balanced in terms of necessity. Part of the problem with XI's design was that it didn't really allow for incremental upgrades. Gear-swapping was a MUST for anyone who seriously did anything endgame related. I just don't want to see that happen again.

Yeah some people went overboard with GS but it was always satisfying debuffing something you thought wasn't able to be debuffed, it made sense in situations like Ultima where you need to get your Citadel busted and swapping to a resistance set made life so much easier.

I don't mind the obscure mechanic of protecting certain rock piles and making sure no meteors hit the ground, but that seems they kind of force a certain strategy on you in the long run rather than letting players run wild.

I think a gear swap but with tools that SE gives to us and easy to use will perfectly work. Gear swap on XI was a pain unless you use spellcast.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yeah some people went overboard with GS but it was always satisfying debuffing something you thought wasn't able to be debuffed, it made sense in situations like Ultima where you need to get your Citadel busted and swapping to a resistance set made life so much easier.

I don't mind the obscure mechanic of protecting certain rock piles and making sure no meteors hit the ground, but that seems they kind of force a certain strategy on you in the long run rather than letting players run wild.

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That's what makes FFXIV battles fun ..you gotta pay attention and you gotta be smart...knowing when and where to stand to avoid something etc. i love that and hope all battles are like that is cool old school arcade gaming forget about FFXI's "omg don't hit it you are only TP feeding" and then the "OMGZERGIT" some ppl that come from FFXI try to break the way the fight is meant to be done and work towards zerging it and usually succeed at finding a way but then they tell the rest how they did it and thus it gets set on stone what jobs they used and such so if you don't have 1 of the jobs in that perfect set-up your fucked lol i hope SE finds a way to avoid this.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

some ppl that come from FFXI try to break the way the fight is meant to be done and work towards zerging it.

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Yeah those kind of people could only come from FFXI right?

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Originally Posted by TomCarroll

You guys know that you're giving extreme examples...

Bear with my 2009 example:

If you tried to tank anything pld/nin with less than 15% gear haste, you were performing an exercise in futility. If you were a DPS without a TP and at least 1 WS set, you were gimp.

The point I was trying to make, was that in XI, you were always just as good as your gear, because there was no other way to build your character. (Outside of merits, I guess. But I think we can all agree that the merit point system was an afterthought at best, and was no real way to build a character.)

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Wait Wait Wait.

This is true only for particular event...with normal Gear (for your level) you can enjoy close to the entire game without problem.

TPS/WS set can be done and switched not only with HI-end equip piece, you can use piece buyed at the AH.

We have to say that this is possible prior to last level cap increase (that have broken all game dinamics).

I have played FFXI from the USA release and TOAU probably is the beginning of the "end".

More exp and more contents (and I like it) but TOAU start to destroy party dinamics that people can use before

Zergs have been in every MMO. FFXI just took it to the extreme with certain NMs that would wipe you out very fast.

Zergs are fine. FFXI zergs are not fine. If there's optimal classes for a fight, because they inch out another in DPS then something is fundamentally wrong with the content you're making. (I'm aware FFXI isn't the only MMO that suffers from this)

In an ideal world every job would be useful for every fight.

A sub tank to tank adds and DPS once they're handled (WAR).
A main tank who should be able to keep threat on the main beasty whilst dealing decent, but not ground breaking damage (PLD).
A healer (WHM). A spike damage dealer to take down adds or pile up damage fast, with some sort of limiting factor like MP due to the high damage they deal (BLM).
A heavy DD that has no tanking, healing or supporting abilities, but DD's better than the other archetypes (DRG, MNK)
A support who makes everyones job easier, and can support heal in a pinch. (BRD)
A debuffer to keep the mob debilitated, to give the tank and healer an easier job (SMN?)

And whatever else.

On a tangent here, but the main problem is that DRG and MNK both compete for one slot, and they need to fundamentally change one so both can be useful in the same fight.

on second thought BCNM fights :)
if beastmen items stay like, gob coins, sylphic leafs,etc in ARR we can buy orbs then do fights at burning circles for other loot.

Let's not forget why it's called zerging to begin with lol.

Prism Powders and Sneak Oils. And @ and @@.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Zergs have been in every MMO. FFXI just took it to the extreme with certain NMs that would wipe you out very fast.

Zergs are fine. FFXI zergs are not fine. If there's optimal classes for a fight, because they inch out another in DPS then something is fundamentally wrong with the content you're making. (I'm aware FFXI isn't the only MMO that suffers from this)

In an ideal world every job would be useful for every fight.

A sub tank to tank adds and DPS once they're handled (WAR).
A main tank who should be able to keep threat on the main beasty whilst dealing decent, but not ground breaking damage (PLD).
A healer (WHM). A spike damage dealer to take down adds or pile up damage fast, with some sort of limiting factor like MP due to the high damage they deal (BLM).
A heavy DD that has no tanking, healing or supporting abilities, but DD's better than the other archetypes (DRG, MNK)
A support who makes everyones job easier, and can support heal in a pinch. (BRD)
A debuffer to keep the mob debilitated, to give the tank and healer an easier job (SMN?)

And whatever else.

On a tangent here, but the main problem is that DRG and MNK both compete for one slot, and they need to fundamentally change one so both can be useful in the same fight.

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The poor DRK ^^

Too many DPS spoil the broth. It was a huge issue in XI and remains to be so.

they should start making party play with specific set ups, where every class has its spot in it. like no more then 2whm or 1 brd, or say a party is 4 then there is free slots for other classes that you can add to the group only(so you end up with 8people in party but 4 are specific types that you can take with you or go with less). something to that extent where it makes everyone useful or at very least becomes that extra class that there isn't a reason not to have in a party less you don't mind less dps/buffs what have you. though people might not like being told they can't have 5blm's but just like the concept of capping all boss fights and endgame, this can also make it a little more challenging. not really thought it threw totally but i'm sure devs can figure out a way to keep every class useful. specifically the weaker dps, make them extra's for every party lol.