Get rid of SAM Limit break gimmick already (FL)

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

bro.... imagine having friends being the meta...

Edit:
That sounded a little mean, im sorry.

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Not a fan of gimmick metas in general. You have a point though, currently I only have one partner!

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Not a fan of gimmick metas in general. You have a point though, currently I only have one partner!

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oh same honestly, i hate gimmicks but sometimes if you want stuff to change you must become the problem so more attention is brought to it. :)

FL isn't that serious, just go out have fun and embrace the samurai. Samurai isn't even the worst thing to get killed by in FL anyways

Thats hilarious that people are complaing about a bugged LB. I can run into a crowd of people, chiten, watch my health almost reach zero, use my LB, and nobody dies.

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Originally Posted by Hopebot

Thats hilarious that people are complaing about a bugged LB. I can run into a crowd of people, chiten, watch my health almost reach zero, use my LB, and nobody dies.

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Pretty sure the person you use the LB on has to have the debuff for it to also apply to others.

make sure to bind them first, people are less likely to scatter if you bind them first even if it wears off

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

FL isn't that serious, just go out have fun and embrace the samurai. Samurai isn't even the worst thing to get killed by in FL anyways

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Yes it is. Losing your battle high against a zero effort zero skill ability that you can do nothing about is most frustrating.

Amusing that MCH's 3% (or was it 5%, dont remember dont care) drill kill shot was deemed most egregious cheap trick while this is just allowed to run free.

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Originally Posted by Hopebot

Thats hilarious that people are complaing about a bugged LB. I can run into a crowd of people, chiten, watch my health almost reach zero, use my LB, and nobody dies.

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While the snapshot of the skill is instant at trigger, the damage resolution takes a certain amount of time. If you die before, the LB is spent but void. It's the same with other LBs like Spite, Meteodrive, etc.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

Amusing that MCH's 3% (or was it 5%, dont remember dont care) drill kill shot was deemed most egregious cheap trick while this is just allowed to run free.

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Its because it was so random. You can see on the party list if a SAM has LB. You can anticipate it and watch for chiten and you can mark the SAM with a "do not attack" marker. MCH would just throw out chainsaw and you would randomly die. Its a completely different scenario.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its because it was so random. You can see on the party list if a SAM has LB. You can anticipate it and watch for chiten and you can mark the SAM with a "do not attack" marker. MCH would just throw out chainsaw and you would randomly die. Its a completely different scenario.

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But you dont want/need to keep a watch on everyone's LBs, especially in FL, right?

Looks like needless extra hassle there, which makes the game less fun an intuitive.

Just to avoid SAM's instakill.
PLD's cover bs wasn't at 3% randomness, and it earned it's short drop to trash can.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

But you dont want/need to keep a watch on everyone's LBs, especially in FL, right?

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Part of the fun of pvp, especially in MMO's is paying attention to abilities and responding to what they have. So yes, I do want to keep an eye on those things.

If you're engaging a SAM as a melee, its not hard to look out for chiten. If you're ranged and throwing out AoE's... You shouldn't be in range of the SAM anyways.

Honestly it sounds like you just want to press buttons with your brain shut off which basically means you probably shouldn't play pvp in any game.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

But you dont want/need to keep a watch on everyone's LBs, especially in FL, right?

Looks like needless extra hassle there, which makes the game less fun an intuitive.

Just to avoid SAM's instakill.
PLD's cover bs wasn't at 3% randomness, and it earned it's short drop to trash can.

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Honestly a PLD that eats the instakill for a teamate is a hero imo

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Part of the fun of pvp, especially in MMO's is paying attention to abilities and responding to what they have. So yes, I do want to keep an eye on those things.

If you're engaging a SAM as a melee, its not hard to look out for chiten. If you're ranged and throwing out AoE's... You shouldn't be in range of the SAM anyways.

Honestly it sounds like you just want to press buttons with your brain shut off which basically means you probably shouldn't play pvp in any game.

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I know you got a clear bias but part of any PvP game being actually fun is not having stupid cheese oneshot crap. A single mistake shouldn’t kill you right of the bat, it’s simply trash design here.

If the UI was better in game, I’d agree a bit with you, like having the important enemy buffs on their healthbar (the bar above their character).

As it stands, it’s just terrible and gimmicks like that should not exist, especially in a PvP mode. This is GW2 pvp bad levels here, and I really don’t want this for FFXIV.

You’re fine with it because that’s probably what you play. Try to see the other side and how bs it is.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Part of the fun of pvp, especially in MMO's is paying attention to abilities and responding to what they have. So yes, I do want to keep an eye on those things.

If you're engaging a SAM as a melee, its not hard to look out for chiten. If you're ranged and throwing out AoE's... You shouldn't be in range of the SAM anyways.

Honestly it sounds like you just want to press buttons with your brain shut off which basically means you probably shouldn't play pvp in any game.

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You're dodging the point made by the person you're replying to. You cannot reliably track every samurai adversary in a blob puddle of 50 players where you can't even see the enemy party list on top of it. That's FLs, and not CC.

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

I know you got a clear bias but part of any PvP game being actually fun is not having stupid cheese oneshot crap. A single mistake shouldn’t kill you right of the bat, it’s simply trash design here.

If the UI was better in game, I’d agree a bit with you, like having the important enemy buffs on their healthbar (the bar above their character).

As it stands, it’s just terrible and gimmicks like that should not exist, especially in a PvP mode. This is GW2 pvp bad levels here, and I really don’t want this for FFXIV.

You’re fine with it because that’s probably what you play. Try to see the other side and how bs it is.

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I feel like cheese ("executing or receiving") makes any PVP game fun, not just FFXIV. Some examples: Warcraft III: Necromancer Rush back in the day; Starcraft II cannon rush, zergling 6 pool, etc. (back in the day); WoW Pyromancer "poly 1 shot"; Overwatch - a good Widowmaker with headshots; old school DOTA using a really good Techies (hour long games - techies eventually carries LOL). FFXIV MCH 1 shot combo in an earlier patch, WHM holy spam (back in the day). Every PVP game (RTS/MMORPG/MOBA) has some kind of cheese.

Using the "cheese" is fun because you can get an easy win if the opposing team/player is clueless. BUT, even better is when someone tries to USE the cheese AGAINST you and you counter it or make them waste it (in the case of SAM lb). That feeling is much more SATISFYING. That is the essence of PVP, it's not supposed to be laidback, that's what casual PVE is for. PVP is meant to be COMPETITIVE which means you need to be aware, thinking and praying to Hydaelyn that your fingers are dexterous enough to keep up and not make mistakes. Even in "casual PVP," it's STILL A COMPETITION (literally player versus player), if you let your guard down, you will be punished for it (SAM LB), no pun intended.

If I died and lose my BH5 simply because I wasn't paying attention as much as I should, I don't even get mad. I think to myself, how can avoid making the same mistake as before? What did I do wrong?

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

I feel like cheese ("executing or receiving") makes any PVP game fun, not just FFXIV. Some examples: Warcraft III: Necromancer Rush back in the day; Starcraft II cannon rush, zergling 6 pool, etc. (back in the day); WoW Pyromancer "poly 1 shot"; Overwatch - a good Widowmaker with headshots; old school DOTA using a really good Techies (hour long games - techies eventually carries LOL). FFXIV MCH 1 shot combo in an earlier patch, WHM holy spam (back in the day). Every PVP game (RTS/MMORPG/MOBA) has some kind of cheese.

Using the "cheese" is fun because you can get an easy win if the opposing team/player is clueless. BUT, even better is when someone tries to USE the cheese AGAINST you and you counter it or make them waste it (in the case of SAM lb). That feeling is much more SATISFYING. That is the essence of PVP, it's not supposed to be laidback, that's what casual PVE is for. PVP is meant to be COMPETITIVE which means you need to be aware, thinking and praying to Hydaelyn that your fingers are dexterous enough to keep up and not make mistakes. Even in "casual PVP," it's STILL A COMPETITION (literally player versus player), if you let your guard down, you will be punished for it (SAM LB), no pun intended.

If I died and lose my BH5 simply because I wasn't paying attention as much as I should, I don't even get mad. I think to myself, how can avoid making the same mistake as before? What did I do wrong?

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nah bro, Fun is what pre 6.1 pvp was. pure chaos.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

Using the "cheese" is fun because you can get an easy win if the opposing team/player is clueless. BUT, even better is when someone tries to USE the cheese AGAINST you and you counter it or make them waste it (in the case of SAM lb). That feeling is much more SATISFYING. That is the essence of PVP, it's not supposed to be laidback, that's what casual PVE is for. PVP is meant to be COMPETITIVE which means you need to be aware, thinking and praying to Hydaelyn that your fingers are dexterous enough to keep up and not make mistakes. Even in "casual PVP," it's STILL A COMPETITION (literally player versus player), if you let your guard down, you will be punished for it (SAM LB), no pun intended.

If I died and lose my BH5 simply because I wasn't paying attention as much as I should, I don't even get mad. I think to myself, how can avoid making the same mistake as before? What did I do wrong?

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I'm not on the exact same wavelength as your thinking there.
I don't think player A should be allowed to screw up 5 times before getting properly punished, while player B dies instantly from their first and only mistake because said mistake was grazing a SAM with a single AoE.
In that same vein, dropping below 50% randomly in an FL makes you instantly die if a NIN is nearby with their LB ready. That is also unfun, because of course you're going to drop below 50%. You are going to be in situations where your MP has run out and you're in their range.
I get the "punishment for letting your guard down" aspect, but there's a pretty big imbalance going on here. It's a competition where one guy gets a slap on the wrist for playing like an absolute dink while another gets beheaded for a split second where they lose focus.
I like being punished for not paying attention. I like there being consequences for mistakes. Just hecking please by Jove, make the punishment be anything but a guaranteed oneshot.

The solution to NIN shouldn't be "never take damage and never be within a NIN's range".
Likewise, the solution to SAM shouldn't be "never use your AoE if a SAM is within 500 yalms and also never target them".
A job being able to lock you out of a huge portion of your kit on the idea that "maybe they can oneshot me" is just poor job design to my eyes.
And before the "lol skill issue" guys come running, I'll state again that I don't think the SAM LB is overpowered. It's just lame.
If I get dogpiled by a bunch of guys stunlocking me I die knowing I got 5v1'd or something and superior numbers should always come out on top, no worries.
If I get outmatched by an opponent who times their CC to prevent me from healing up or guarding and then finishes me with a chain of strong abilities, no worries.

If I see my HP go from 100% to dead in the blink of an eye because I play BLM and my only damage source comes from AoE, and that AoE clipped a SAM who came running in from the side, that doesn't sit well with me.

I've believed for a long time, and I'll continue to believe the following:
- Oneshot LBs should just be removed.
- SAM should get stronger baseline abilities, and maybe some counter-attack LB that, while heavily punishing attackers, doesn't oneshot them.
- NIN's LB should be... well, literally anything else than what they currently have.
- Remove Chainsaw proc for good measure and instead replace it with something reliable but less broken, like what the actual heck dude.

And to clarify: I'm talking FL.
In CC even the SAM LB is whatever.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

Honestly a PLD that eats the instakill for a teamate is a hero imo

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Youre welcome but tbh for me i just get a little bored and figure fuck it ill bite the bullet

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Honestly it sounds like you just want to press buttons with your brain shut off which basically means you probably shouldn't play pvp in any game.

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oh noo you caught me, ive been made to look like a dunce--

anyway
slight to moderate variation in regard how you deal with different jobs as your enemy is fine, but if you have to do too much time consuming brainwork for one job's one attack thing in context, the similar kinds of which have been yeeted from other jobs' toolkits already mind you, i find that asymmetry worth to be discussed about.

maybe the real root of the problem is that ff14 pvp could be better designed,
designed to encourage more of that strategic gameplay of...
･:☆｡ keeping an eye on things ｡☆:･ﾟ

now, show us on the doll where losing kaiten hurt you the most

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Originally Posted by Kansene

In CC even the SAM LB is whatever.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

but if you have to do too much time consuming brainwork for one job's one attack thing in context

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Here's the problem. You really don't.

I see samurai.
I look out for chiten.
I press guard or simply just don't attack him.

It ain't that difficult and it doesn't require a lot of brainwork. It's literally just a simple reaction.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I press guard or simply just don't attack him.

It ain't that difficult and it doesn't require a lot of brainwork. It's literally just a simple reaction.

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if skedaddling as soon as you see kuzushi would be the answer we wouldnt be having this discussion. or stay and do nothing.

seems to me that chiten disencourages to pvp actually, because to deal with it maybe you have to disengage. and if you are aoe heavy job you are at even worse position

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

if skedaddling as soon as you see kuzushi would be the answer we wouldnt be having this discussion. or stay and do nothing.

seems to me that chiten disencourages to pvp actually, because to deal with it maybe you have to disengage. and if you are aoe heavy job you are at even worse position

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An ability causing you to disengage is not uncommon for pvp games. Reflect skills in swtor, Genji deflect in overwatch etc... for basic examples.

Chiten is 5s. It's not the end of the world to simply disengage them. The issue seems to me like ya'll just want to mash buttons and not pay attention to what's going on around you. Then again, the amount of times I've seen people fail to faill back just to get nuked by a respawning zerg explains a lot about the average player in frontlines lol.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

An ability causing you to disengage is not uncommon for pvp games. Reflect skills in swtor, Genji deflect in overwatch etc... for basic examples.

Chiten is 5s. It's not the end of the world to simply disengage them. The issue seems to me like ya'll just want to mash buttons and not pay attention to what's going on around you. Then again, the amount of times I've seen people fail to faill back just to get nuked by a respawning zerg explains a lot about the average player in frontlines lol.

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Let's be honest, I'd rather fight a deflect Genji or an airblast Pyro than whatever this game throws with the awful netcode + crap detection.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Here's the problem. You really don't.

I see samurai.
I look out for chiten.
I press guard or simply just don't attack him.

It ain't that difficult and it doesn't require a lot of brainwork. It's literally just a simple reaction.

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To be honest, I just see enemy team, I look out for them, and I win.

Ain't that difficult either. It's just a simple reaction.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

Let's be honest, I'd rather fight a deflect Genji or an airblast Pyro than whatever this game throws with the awful netcode + crap detection.

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same tbf, this game is not meant for whatever samurai has atm.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

Let's be honest, I'd rather fight a deflect Genji or an airblast Pyro than whatever this game throws with the awful netcode + crap detection.

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That's an entirely different problem though.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Here's the problem. You really don't.

I see samurai.
I look out for chiten.
I press guard or simply just don't attack him.

It ain't that difficult and it doesn't require a lot of brainwork. It's literally just a simple reaction.

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I have to agree with this, SAM in FL really isn't as big as a deal as people make them out to be. Most times i can just simply ignore them honestly. CC Though they can be annoying simply because of it only being a 5V5.

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Originally Posted by JuicyHeals

I have to agree with this, SAM in FL really isn't as big as a deal as people make them out to be. Most times i can just simply ignore them honestly. CC Though they can be annoying simply because of it only being a 5V5.

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Wrong, anything that has the power to kill you with one button is dumb and should be fixed.

honestly it should be more like ninjas LB.

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Originally Posted by JuicyHeals

I have to agree with this, SAM in FL really isn't as big as a deal as people make them out to be. Most times i can just simply ignore them honestly. CC Though they can be annoying simply because of it only being a 5V5.

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Its definitely more of an issue in CC, but mostly with aoe's. In FL's I'm never in range of them anyways, but in CC, ya if you're in one of the many choke points you have to be a lot more careful. Generally if I see that they have LB and I'm on BLM or something I kind of backoff or throw a superflare out there to CC them and get out of their LB range. Usually its enough to get them burned down, especially if you mark them correctly. Its a bit more annoying to deal with in CC, but honestly their LB stops being an issue once you get beyond gold rank and people kind of know what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

Wrong, anything that has the power to kill you with one button is dumb and should be fixed.

honestly it should be more like ninjas LB.

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lol what? Yes please give me an instant kill for anyone below 50%. That is way stronger than trying to bait out a debuff with chiten. At least currently the SAM LB requires a setup and you can actually avoid it just by visually looking for the chiten animation. NIN LB you can't guard or anything. All you can do is spam recup and hope to keep yourself above 50% long enough to fall back from the fight and get away from them. I'd much rather deal with a SAM than a NIN.

i dont have an issue with SAM in FL, if i see one i focus target to see the buff/debuffs so i know when to avoid it or for sake of poops & giggles i'll deprive it of the multi one hit KO, however i do understand the issue for any player that mains a ranged job, maybe if chitens debuff had a radius limit that might level it out *throws 2 pennies*

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its definitely more of an issue in CC, but mostly with aoe's. In FL's I'm never in range of them anyways, but in CC, ya if you're in one of the many choke points you have to be a lot more careful. Generally if I see that they have LB and I'm on BLM or something I kind of backoff or throw a superflare out there to CC them and get out of their LB range. Usually its enough to get them burned down, especially if you mark them correctly. Its a bit more annoying to deal with in CC, but honestly their LB stops being an issue once you get beyond gold rank and people kind of know what they are doing.

lol what? Yes please give me an instant kill for anyone below 50%. That is way stronger than trying to bait out a debuff with chiten. At least currently the SAM LB requires a setup and you can actually avoid it just by visually looking for the chiten animation. NIN LB you can't guard or anything. All you can do is spam recup and hope to keep yourself above 50% long enough to fall back from the fight and get away from them. I'd much rather deal with a SAM than a NIN.

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From history of posts it seems he is playing on a job that most players avoid to attack and usually with a premade party
His chance of getting sniped by Ninja is slim and if something is up, his friends can bails him out; but not Samurai LB

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

I feel like cheese ("executing or receiving") makes any PVP game fun, not just FFXIV. Some examples: Warcraft III: Necromancer Rush back in the day; Starcraft II cannon rush, zergling 6 pool, etc. (back in the day); WoW Pyromancer "poly 1 shot"; Overwatch - a good Widowmaker with headshots; old school DOTA using a really good Techies (hour long games - techies eventually carries LOL). FFXIV MCH 1 shot combo in an earlier patch, WHM holy spam (back in the day). Every PVP game (RTS/MMORPG/MOBA) has some kind of cheese.

Using the "cheese" is fun because you can get an easy win if the opposing team/player is clueless. BUT, even better is when someone tries to USE the cheese AGAINST you and you counter it or make them waste it (in the case of SAM lb). That feeling is much more SATISFYING. That is the essence of PVP, it's not supposed to be laidback, that's what casual PVE is for. PVP is meant to be COMPETITIVE which means you need to be aware, thinking and praying to Hydaelyn that your fingers are dexterous enough to keep up and not make mistakes. Even in "casual PVP," it's STILL A COMPETITION (literally player versus player), if you let your guard down, you will be punished for it (SAM LB), no pun intended.

If I died and lose my BH5 simply because I wasn't paying attention as much as I should, I don't even get mad. I think to myself, how can avoid making the same mistake as before? What did I do wrong?

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Idk about the other ones but doing headshots in Overwatch is not always easy. That’s why it’s rewarding. She also oneshots low HP characters with headshots, so not everyone is concerned by this.
WoW patches the oneshot stuff in PvP, even though they’re very slow with them. Using FFXIV as example is not a good idea to get some comparison here.

Every PvP game worth its salt controls the cheese, the player needs to work for it and if done correctly it has drawbacks otherwise everyone would be doing it, you talk about headshots, in melee slasher games you can oneshot with a maul but it’s incredibly slow and not always good to use compared to the other weapons.

In FFXIV, what is difficult about waiting for a gauge to fill up, press 2 keybinds and call it a day ? Or just Pray RNGesus as MCH for a oneshot to proc?

It’s just another aspect of a dumbed down mode, and why MMOs will always suck for balanced and competitive PvP.

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

In FFXIV, what is difficult about waiting for a gauge to fill up, press 2 keybinds and call it a day ? Or just Pray RNGesus as MCH for a oneshot to proc?

It’s just another aspect of a dumbed down mode, and why MMOs will always suck for balanced and competitive PvP.

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LB's are no different than Ults in OW...

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

Idk about the other ones but doing headshots in Overwatch is not always easy. That’s why it’s rewarding.

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I hope you're kidding. Headshot hitboxes are huge in OW; projectile hitboxes are also much bigger than they should be so characters like Hanzo, Genji, Mei, Zen etc. can all easily get headshots all day long.

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

Idk about the other ones but doing headshots in Overwatch is not always easy. That’s why it’s rewarding. She also oneshots low HP characters with headshots, so not everyone is concerned by this.
WoW patches the oneshot stuff in PvP, even though they’re very slow with them. Using FFXIV as example is not a good idea to get some comparison here.

Every PvP game worth its salt controls the cheese, the player needs to work for it and if done correctly it has drawbacks otherwise everyone would be doing it, you talk about headshots, in melee slasher games you can oneshot with a maul but it’s incredibly slow and not always good to use compared to the other weapons.

In FFXIV, what is difficult about waiting for a gauge to fill up, press 2 keybinds and call it a day ? Or just Pray RNGesus as MCH for a oneshot to proc?

It’s just another aspect of a dumbed down mode, and why MMOs will always suck for balanced and competitive PvP.

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I mean yeah, but we can all agree that ff14 pvp sucks the most eggs right?

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Originally Posted by Kathleen_

I hope you're kidding. Headshot hitboxes are huge in OW; projectile hitboxes are also much bigger than they should be so characters like Hanzo, Genji, Mei, Zen etc. can all easily get headshots all day long.

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Such is the fate of games also designed for console.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Such is the fate of games also designed for console.

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yerp, such is the fate.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

I mean yeah, but we can all agree that ff14 pvp sucks the most eggs right?

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Lala eggs yea lol

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Originally Posted by Ransu

LB's are no different than Ults in OW...

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But they are countered way more easily, often just by hiding behind a wall for a short time.

How do you counter a WHM aoe stun/beam ? You don’t you take it.
WAR, same thing, the only «*counter*» is the warrior not facing the opponents correctly so nothing you can do.
SAM oneshot LB, so basically from your point of view in a team fight, one should never attack or even AoE if a Samurai is nearby and get steamrolled. Nice counter there.

https://youtu.be/Ncy6Mgv5K14

good gods, did not know this video existed but its a interesting find.