Yoshi-P: Flippant dismissal of player criticism is a poor look for a lead developer.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

'' NOOOOOO WAAAAH I WAWANT PIWZZAAAA I HAET U MOM AND DAD ''.

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When this is the best you can come up with to validate your point, don't even bother.

Criterion Dungeons are a positive and you're indeed correct that some people are going overboard in trying to paint 6.2 as being bad, but you have to look at why that's happening. For whatever reason people aren't hyped for 6.2 or aren't enjoying the content. Why are they so unhappy that they'll launch into rants at the slightest provocation?

You can call them babies and tell them to quit and maybe they will, but for every complainer there's 10 silent leavers who felt the same. If an expansion or two down the line, the population had significantly decreased, you'd only have yourself to blame. Frequent complaints are not a tiny minority of people randomly attacking your perfect game for no reason. It's a sign that there are issues.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

When this is the best you can come up with to validate your point, don't even bother.

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No, they made a three paragraphs long post, not just that one line quote at the end, for me that's just the perfect tl;dr version of this community.

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Why are they so unhappy that they'll launch into rants at the slightest provocation?

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I don't know, you tell me, it's one of life biggest mystery. You spend 15$ on it a month and have to invest your limited time to it, yet some people act like they're being forced to play the game at gun point, or have to consume it as sustenance against their will.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

When this is the best you can come up with to validate your point, don't even bother.

Criterion Dungeons are a positive and you're indeed correct that some people are going overboard in trying to paint 6.2 as being bad, but you have to look at why that's happening. For whatever reason people aren't hyped for 6.2 or aren't enjoying the content. Why are they so unhappy that they'll launch into rants at the slightest provocation?

You can call them babies and tell them to quit and maybe they will, but for every complainer there's 10 silent leavers who felt the same. If an expansion or two down the line, the population had significantly decreased, you'd only have yourself to blame. Frequent complaints are not a tiny minority of people randomly attacking your perfect game for no reason. It's a sign that there are issues.

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Why do they launch into rants because they are so unhappy?

Because they are stuck in the game and apparently can't let go, even though they are unhappy.

They don't have the mental fortitude to go "I don't like this anymore, I should step away."

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Why do they launch into rants because they are so unhappy?

Because they are stuck in the game and apparently can't let go, even though they are unhappy.

They don't have the mental fortitude to go "I don't like this anymore, I should step away."

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A lot of us like the game, and don't want to just drop it. We'd rather see it improved. Plus other mmorpgs are awful. Many others don't want to see it go down the route of WoW.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Why do they launch into rants because they are so unhappy?
Because they are stuck in the game and apparently can't let go

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EEEEEEGHHHH WRONG

It's because of constant disappointment, feeling abandoned and then antagonized (by judgy people like you, actually), and, most importantly, due to their investment (both in a monetary sense and time sense) in this game.
You should probably give more thought to why people complain about anything, in general, before you start claiming that they lack fortitude after trying to antagonize them into leaving the game and seeing them persist.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

EEEEEEGHHHH WRONG

It's because of constant disappointment, feeling abandoned and then antagonized (by judgy people like you, actually), and, most importantly, due to their investment (both in a monetary sense and time sense) in this game.
You should probably give more thought to why people complain about anything, in general, before you start claiming that they lack fortitude after trying to antagonize them into leaving the game and seeing them persist.

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I worked in retail for 7 years.

People will literally complain the price is as advertised. Please.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I worked in retail for 7 years.

People will literally complain the price is as advertised. Please.

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I've worked in retail for 5 years, and the customer always knows best. Unless you play XIV in which case, the people who take money from you know best.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I worked in retail for 7 years.

People will literally complain the price is as advertised. Please.

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I worked in retail as well and I'll tell you the same thing I told the rest of my co-workers: get over it. Just because people will complain about the tiniest little thing does not necessarily mean that they're wrong, and we shouldn't judge them for it because we have very little perspective on their lives and point of view.
To me, you just sound bitter for having to work (or got worked way too hard) and now push that bitterness forward instead of trying to understand other people. But that's just my perspective, and I don't know your life, I'll leave you to bare that cross at your leisure.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

I've worked in retail for 5 years, and the customer always knows best. Unless you play XIV in which case, the people who take money from you know best.

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The customer knows best was a construct come up by people to make themselves feel good for yelling at low level customer service people, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The customer knows best was a construct come up by people to make themselves feel good for yelling at low level customer service people, nothing more.

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Incorrect!
It was a slogan coined by a London department store founder in 1909 who wanted to reassure his customers that they would get good service.
https://blog.aiiane.com/img/themoreyouknow2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lustre

I've worked in retail for 5 years, and the customer always knows best. Unless you play XIV in which case, the people who take money from you know best.

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I just wonder… who knows best of 2 customers for the very same product if they have different views on what the product should or shouldn’t be?

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I just wonder… who knows best of 2 customers for the very same product if they have different views on what the product should or shouldn’t be?

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Shh... Management hates questions like that. lol

To the people who think "Customers are kings!"

You should remind yourself the fact there are VERY good reasonS the world decided we should never have king ... I always laugh at that slogan tbh.

The customer isn't always right, but they are right sometimes. Otherwise we would never have seen this game even get ARR.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

To the people who think "Customers are kings!"

You should remind yourself the fact there are VERY good reasonS the world decided we should never have king ... I always laugh at that slogan tbh.

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What? Plenty of places still have a monarchy. My country included. Anyway I feel like people are being contrarians deliberately. My main point is that, in SE's own words, a complaint is worth twice a compliment. And as another poster already said, for every 1 complainer, there are 10 people who silently left because they didnt care enough to complain. I have absolutely no doubt that both the people that complain, and the people who do voluntary PR work for SE both want the best for the game. But only one side fails to recognise that people complain not from a place of malice, but because they care.

You know what happens when complainers are gone? The game's already dead at that point. If you want an echo chamber to fanboy over every half broken patch and slither of content the devs deliver, there's a place called r/xiv where the most inane and redundant posts and takes get skyrocketed into updoot heaven. You should check it out!

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Originally Posted by Lustre

What? Plenty of places still have a monarchy.

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Define plenty? Comparing to when the world were ruled almost exclusively by kings ... not to mention of the few monarchy remain most of them don't have real power, and among the one that has real powers most have really backward society. I think my point is pretty clear unless you're simply trying very hard not to get it.

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You know what happens when complainers are gone?

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I know for sure this forum would become a lot more enjoyable when 90% of the topic doesn't look like it's made by people playing the game with a gun on their bead.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

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Some players actually like the current state of the game, and they do not want SE to listen to some user's suggestions, as they believe it will change, or ruin "their" game. It's not necessarily that they don't believe the people complaining "hate" the game. They are trying to act counter to prevent SE from potentially listening to their suggestion(s).

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Originally Posted by Lustre

What? Plenty of places still have a monarchy. My country included. Anyway I feel like people are being contrarians deliberately. My main point is that, in SE's own words, a complaint is worth twice a compliment. And as another poster already said, for every 1 complainer, there are 10 people who silently left because they didnt care enough to complain. I have absolutely no doubt that both the people that complain, and the people who do voluntary PR work for SE both want the best for the game. But only one side fails to recognise that people complain not from a place of malice, but because they care.

You know what happens when complainers are gone? The game's already dead at that point. If you want an echo chamber to fanboy over every half broken patch and slither of content the devs deliver, there's a place called r/xiv where the most inane and redundant posts and takes get skyrocketed into updoot heaven. You should check it out!

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Ever since the "god king" thing most western nations hate the term now, lol. Besides, at this point the complaint slide they showed off seems more like lip service in hindsight. The game has gone past the point where it no longer has to cater to it's long term crowd, they have plenty ready to buy a ton of stuff in the mogshop so those long term subs seems pale in comparison to a handful of whales, lol. At this point, enjoy the game for what is it until they cross "that" line. You know which one. It's different for everyone, but it's there.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Some players actually like the current state of the game, and they do not want SE to listen to some user's suggestions

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Aye, people often say SE ignore this forum as if it is a bad thing. I count my blessing everyday the fact they ARE ignoring this community. I would have to pack up and leave the game many years ago if SE took all the "suggestion" on this forum to heart and act accordingly.

So here is a toast hoping that they will continue to ignore.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Besides, at this point the complaint slide they showed off seems more like lip service in hindsight. The game has gone past the point where it no longer has to cater to it's long term crowd, they have plenty ready to buy a ton of stuff in the mogshop so those long term subs seems pale in comparison to a handful of whales, lol.

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Consider I've been playing none stop since 2014 (which a short break during HW due to some FC drama), and I'm currently plenty happy with the game. As hard as it is for the complainers to believe, it's quite possible to actually play the game and enjoy it. In fact I'm pretty sure it's the natural order of thing. I played WoW for a long time too, but when I felt it no longer suit me I pack up and left, it was an easy decision that wasn't a result of me spending years of antagonizing and hating on the game.

And to the people who said they can't leave a game because of money and time investment. When I quit WoW I left behind a full roster of 8 characters with max level that cleared most raid, and also one of the richest person on the server (at the time). It was an easy decision because game is supposed to be fun, when it's no longer fun than that's it, all other factor are distant second. They way some of you talk I wonder if you treat this as a job rather than a game?



oh btw, I haven't spent a penny on the mogstation for comestic items. So your statements feel like a hot-take dosed with copium.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Aye, people often say SE ignore this forum as if it is a bad thing. I count my blessing everyday the fact they ARE ignoring this community. I would have to pack up and leave the game many years ago if SE took all the "suggestion" on this forum to heart and act accordingly.

So here is a toast hoping that they will continue to ignore.

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I think they should get their feedback from multiple sources - forum included. There are requests that I personally disagree with, but I think all are still valid. There are many requests from the forum that I believe should be listened to, or at least they could communicate with us more.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Ever since the "god king" thing most western nations hate the term now, lol. Besides, at this point the complaint slide they showed off seems more like lip service in hindsight. The game has gone past the point where it no longer has to cater to it's long term crowd, they have plenty ready to buy a ton of stuff in the mogshop so those long term subs seems pale in comparison to a handful of whales, lol. At this point, enjoy the game for what is it until they cross "that" line. You know which one. It's different for everyone, but it's there.

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Honestly, it's probably the poorest form of 'lip service' they have given. Mainly because it has planted the idea in peoples' heads that either their complaints are addressed and included or outright ignored with nothing between (e.g., considered but declined). This isn't necessarily the case, and I think those smart enough to realize that, have probably also come to an equally bleak conclusion in that the developers don't really have as much community outreach as we (they) would like. Be it in the form of more Q/A panels or just general transparency regarding certain decisions or limitations.


That said, it is also worth noting that feedback is only as good as the people delivering it from 'source to destination'. E.g., doesn't do much justice for the developers or anyone for that matter if the people responsible for collecting it are selective with what they 'collect'. Which I think where a lot of the disconnect between this lip service (if truthful) and the reality.

I've worked in retail myself and the vast majority of my interactions with customers were positive or neutral. I did encounter some bad apples though they were few and far between.

I think it's a shame that some people allow some bad experiences with customers to lead them to tarnish all customers with the same brush. Getting yelled at by a drunk customer didn't suddenly mean the sweet old lady who came in every Saturday suddenly ceased to exist or that she had any obligation to be lectured on the basis that someone else was being unreasonable.

Maybe Yoshi-P would benefit from actually reaching out to some regular players for a change and asking their opinions about things instead of seemingly only looking at Reddit, Twitter and prominent streamers.

At the very least, more acknowledgement as to what feedback is being gathered and what isn't would do wonders.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Raven's ravings

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You'd have a field day back in 1.0 wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by Stasya

You probably should play this game more since its your sub money but instead you whiteknight SE on forums. Care to explain SAM changes? Where it falls first or second sentence?

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....I Have all the Jobs (except Crafters and Gathers at the moment) Maxed out and Ive been playing over 6 years.
Maybe more, I forget when I 1st joined and bought my copy. But it was back in the PS3 days. Still playing to this day.
And care to explain how what I said is White Knighting, or is this just a typical Knee-Jerk Reaction to anybody who says something you dont like and doesnt agree with you?

Nah, I wont explain Samurai changes. You might want to talk to the devs on that one. Im not a dev. It has nothing to do with me.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

....I Have all the Jobs (except Crafters and Gathers at the moment) Maxed out and Ive been playing over 6 years.
Maybe more, I forget when I 1st joined and bought my copy. But it was back in the PS3 days. Still playing to this day.
And care to explain how what I said is White Knighting, or is this just a typical Knee-Jerk Reaction to anybody who says something you dont like and doesnt agree with you?

Nah, I wont explain Samurai changes. You might want to talk to the devs on that one. Im not a dev. It has nothing to do with me.

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Avoids question and just goes with devs can't be wrong again. Definitly not white knight gotcha.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Avoids question and just goes with devs can't be wrong again. Definitly not white knight gotcha.

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Ever thought the reason people go along with the dev is because they actually are in agreement? I have said it before and I'll say it again, it maybe incomprehensible to the people who seem to do nothing but complain, but there EXIST people who actually playing the game because we're very happy with it.

Whitknighting, simping for Yoshi ...etc... You don't really need to come up with all of these weird conspiracy about why we like the game. Trust me, the real reason is a lot more simple and natural than it: we just enjoy the game, that's it.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Ever thought the reason people go along with the dev is because they actually are in agreement? I have said it before and I'll say it again, it maybe incomprehensible to the people who seem to do nothing but complain, but there EXIST people who actually playing the game because we're very happy with it.

Whitknighting, simping for Yoshi ...etc... You don't really need to come up with all of these weird conspiracy about why we like the game. Trust me, the real reason is a lot more simple and natural than it: we just enjoy the game, that's it.

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This. It's why I don't come here much anymore, forum community is just overflowing with self righteous drama.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Avoids question and just goes with devs can't be wrong again. Definitly not white knight gotcha.

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How can I avoid a question I can't reasonably answer?
What am I suppose to say? XD

And you might need to brush up on your Reading skills, either that or your a dishonest liar, because I never said Devs cant be wrong.
Anything to sling around the Label White Knight I guess.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

How can I avoid a question I can't reasonably answer?
What am I suppose to say? XD

And you might need to brush up on your Reading skills, either that or your a dishonest liar, because I never said Devs cant be wrong.
Anything to sling around the Label White Knight I guess.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Even if they try to do right and fix things...people will complain.
They do things people ask for, and they still complain...
No matter what, people will complain...
Its never enough.

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Poor devs always do right things or what they have been asked for.
Literally your words dishonest liar. Still waiting where you will put SAM situation. Was it right and/or fix? Was it thing that people asked for?

They did try to implement a new system similar to tansmog in WOW though


https://i.redd.it/12934b9r9ta71.png

Source

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

They did try to implement a new system similar to tansmog in WOW though


https://i.redd.it/12934b9r9ta71.png

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They said it can't handle it but they didn't say why they can't handle it. Is it too much memory for the servers (get more)? Is it a technical problem (that goes back to the infamous spaghetti code they say doesn't exist)?

They've shown since then that they do have the ability to free up space (deleting belts and HQ gathering), so things do change.

Honestly most of the community that defends the devs every step of the way even knowing they have made some blunders are the issue as well. I never understand how they think Yoshi P and the devs can do no wrong yet clearly they have shown that they haven't tested any of these patches correctly i.e botched lottery system and DC travel to name a couple. ISn't it time to start holding them accountable for some lazy quality assurances.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They said it can't handle it but they didn't say why they can't handle it. Is it too much memory for the servers (get more)? Is it a technical problem (that goes back to the infamous spaghetti code they say doesn't exist)?

They've shown since then that they do have the ability to free up space (deleting belts and HQ gathering), so things do change.

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Could just be memory allocation. It took them this long to give us glamour dresser slots, and it's taking them strides to get us inventory space.

There's just one thing, of course. It's that the 400 slot thing is server-side, so you need memory for all of it. Imagine one slot takes exactly 1MB, for some reason. For example's sake.
That's 400MB of inventory space on one end, they need to come up with the remainder. And then, each player will need memory allocated for their inventories. That's why it's a bit hard sometimes to properly implement these slots. Even if the inventory window isn't on, you're still taking up space somewhere. Now, of course, 400MB is probably not realistic xD a full inventory would likely take around 1MB or so. But imagine the thousands of players and ALTs they have. And that's just 400 new slots, we have a lot more than that.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Could just be memory allocation. It took them this long to give us glamour dresser slots, and it's taking them strides to get us inventory space.

There's just one thing, of course. It's that the 400 slot thing is server-side, so you need memory for all of it. Imagine one slot takes exactly 1MB, for some reason. For example's sake.
That's 400MB of inventory space on one end, they need to come up with the remainder. And then, each player will need memory allocated for their inventories. That's why it's a bit hard sometimes to properly implement these slots. Even if the inventory window isn't on, you're still taking up space somewhere. Now, of course, 400MB is probably not realistic xD a full inventory would likely take around 1MB or so. But imagine the thousands of players and ALTs they have. And that's just 400 new slots, we have a lot more than that.

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The relatively easy, armchair developer solution to that is to limit where you can access your glam so it doesn't have to perpetually be scanned and available. Limit it to Inn Rooms so even if it takes a few seconds to load the database on demand it's still less resource intensive than having to keep that memory everywhere.

I don't know if that's even possible but we don't know if they've even considered that. I honestly hope they have because if this is the system we're stuck with I want it to be as functional as it can be.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The relatively easy, armchair developer solution to that is to limit where you can access your glam so it doesn't have to perpetually be scanned and available. Limit it to Inn Rooms so even if it takes a few seconds to load the database on demand it's still less resource intensive than having to keep that memory everywhere.

I don't know if that's even possible but we don't know if they've even considered that. I honestly hope they have because if this is the system we're stuck with I want it to be as functional as it can be.

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But doesn't that take up physical space? If they haven't done it, then it might just be about the aforementioned technical issues like server memory\server space. Meaning even if you don't have it up all the time, you'll still need a list stored somewhere. Countless lists, for every character and alt.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Poor devs always do right things or what they have been asked for.
Literally your words dishonest liar. Still waiting where you will put SAM situation. Was it right and/or fix? Was it thing that people asked for?

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Wow you suck at this. Nowhere in those lines of dialogue suggests or says I can Explain Samurai Changes.
If you want answers to game changes, talk to the devs, they actually make the changes and can explain it to you. Not me, Im not a Dev, I play this game just like you.
Nowhere in there does it say Devs cant be wrong either. So you made that up. You either need better reading skills, or you are a Liar.

Better luck next time

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

But doesn't that take up physical space? If they haven't done it, then it might just be about the aforementioned technical issues like server memory\server space. Meaning even if you don't have it up all the time, you'll still need a list stored somewhere. Countless lists, for every character and alt.

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And it takes up far less memory to have it in a single repository only accessed in a select few zones vs having to have that memory dedicated to every player wherever they are in the world.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And it takes up far less memory to have it in a single repository only accessed in a select few zones vs having to have that memory dedicated to every player wherever they are in the world.

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Well, they're clearly not doing that xD otherwise they'd have solved half the messes in the game that derive from them not having space for better\newer features.

Nah, instead they do weird stuff like cut out Hrothgar ears. Choices, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Wow you suck at this. Nowhere in those lines of dialogue suggests or says I can Explain Samurai Changes.
If you want answers to game changes, talk to the devs, they actually make the changes and can explain it to you. Not me, Im not a Dev, I play this game just like you.
Nowhere in there does it say Devs cant be wrong either. So you made that up. You either need better reading skills, or you are a Liar.

Better luck next time

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xD Zanarkand, why are you still bothering with her?

Girlie, they just said that it doesn't matter what the devs do, people will still complain. And that is what will happen.

Otherwise she's calling you a white knight, and while I haven't always agreed with Zanarkand here, they for sure is NOT a white knight. Seriously, sis, go read their posts before you call people something they're not. Accusing people of something they didn't do might not make you a liar, but it does make you look dishonest as hell.

Also you just threw out Samurai for no reason. This is the General Discussion chat, not the DPS discussion forum.

Criticism or negative feedback is voiced for a reason, more so when it's ignored.

Whatever happened to not Ignoring Job feed-back from players?

• WHM still waiting on more then just Glare?
• DRK Dark Arts just poof?
• MNK Positionals deleted?
• NIN Trick attack sudden change?
• DNC Flourish what happened to that?
• SMN over simplification?
• SAM Kaiten removal?

For the recent 6.1 SAM changes, Yoshi and Dev's literal words were " Give it a try " and " Give us Feedback ". We tried and we gave feedback as requested. 130 Anti Kaiten removal/6.1 SAM change threads. 8 Youtube videos of content creators and streamers disliking 6.1 SAM changes. The JP forums on fire with negative feedback and criticism, and yet for 4 months? nothing... Ignored.

Though 4 months pales in comparison to years of WHM mains being Ignored. Perhaps this backlash was the reasoning AST and DRG were delayed, though speculations.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Also you just threw out Samurai for no reason. This is the General Discussion chat, not the DPS discussion forum.

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Ah, so it's not General Discussion it's " Selective Discussion ", I see. Gone take a wild guess that Criticism isn't oke either just Selective Criticism, like Hrothgar hair. Which is probably an issue that's also been Ignored, I haven't really followed the news on that. If anyone can tell me for how long that's been Ignored feel free to share.

What about the " Housing Lottery " debacle then, where it was obvious players could create Solo-FC's and are now the winners of the new system over actual players who want to own a private house. The warnings clearly Ignored and let's not even touch upon individuals that own entire Wards of houses, unaddressed and the list can go on with what players voice that has been Ignored.

Yoshi and the Dev's aren't perfect, thus not immune to critique.
Nor do I see a reason to fetishize/ embrace the idea of " Victimizing a billion dollar company ". Which if you can believe it some do.

Not every person is a WhiteKnight/CompanySuckup no, nor is every Critique an Attack. Though apparently players have been demonized for it when many have very good reasons to give criticism.

Generally, players voice Critique cause they care. You can tell when they truly stop caring if they aren't here anymore to voice anything at all for being Ignored for to long. Passionate players voice concerns or critique because they either want to prevent elements from the game to not be ruined or to see FFXIV improve.


Having a bunch of nodding yes-man, doesn't achieve that.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

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I like how these yoshi p fans (who probably even forgets to assign person to work on ff14 while hes doing projects like ff16) completly spin SAM changes as dps discussion and that this dont belong here (Theme of thread: Yoshi-P: Flippant dismissal of player criticism is a poor look for a lead developer.). And spin it like its either fix or asked change.

Surely thread about lead dev criticism can't have criticism? Surely SAM players didn't criticized 6.1 changes even before they got released?