Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

I find healing dungeons plenty engaging enough. Well, as long as the tank is doing wall to wall pulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

After finishing the thread, people are saying "We dont want harder, we want more DPS buttons as healers."

1. No. You signed up to heal. SO heal. ANY dps you can do at that point is just a bonus. If you want more in depth DPS, then pick a job with a red icon.
2. Wanting more DPS buttons is literally the same as harder.

---

Anyone else notice a pattern where the players who spout this kind of stuff on the forums have a pretty recent join date? Where their characters don't seem to have seasonal mounts before 2021? Hmm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiros

Anyone else notice a pattern where the players who spout this kind of stuff on the forums have a pretty recent join date? Where their characters don't seem to have seasonal mounts before 2021? Hmm.

---

Nah, I second it.
Any dps rotation will end up taking precedence, and suddenly you'll have every healer unable to heal because they're in the middle of their combo.
SGE is the peak of healer dps rotations, it has a couple of CDs and oGCDs to break up the Dosis/Dyskrasia spam and that's enough. Anything more would be overkill.
They should absolutely bring WHM and SCH up to that level though and AST has cards so to keep it busy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Nah, I second it.
Any dps rotation will end up taking precedence, and suddenly you'll have every healer unable to heal because they're in the middle of their combo.
SGE is the peak of healer dps rotations, it has a couple of CDs and oGCDs to break up the Dosis/Dyskrasia spam and that's enough. Anything more would be overkill.
They should absolutely bring WHM and SCH up to that level though and AST has cards so to keep it busy.

---

This is complete nonsense. Healers had additional buttons to manage beforehand and were perfectly fine. The whole problem with this stance is there's nothing to heal. A good number of healers want to heal more but there simply isn't enough outgoing damage to warrant nor do we believe the dev team has any aspirations to change that. Therefore, we're asking for something else to do but one button spam.

Sage doesn't "break up" anything. In Copied Factory, I pressed Dosis II 513 times; more than ten times any necessary heal. You look up any healer log, even average players, and you'll see their one button nuke overwhelmingly dominating every other ability they press.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

After finishing the thread, people are saying "We dont want harder, we want more DPS buttons as healers."

1. No. You signed up to heal. SO heal. ANY dps you can do at that point is just a bonus. If you want more in depth DPS, then pick a job with a red icon.
2. Wanting more DPS buttons is literally the same as harder.

---

You kinda didn't read the thread then...
People are asking for more things to heal since they want us to heal. But the damage is ridiculous. And tanks have seriously OP mitigation and heals now. Since we don't have things to do as healers, so at least give us a engaging rotation during downtime? (Since they won't add crowd control, or buff management etc).

People want a more engaging role. Not necessarily more DPS or harder stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

After finishing the thread, people are saying "We dont want harder, we want more DPS buttons as healers."

1. No. You signed up to heal. SO heal. ANY dps you can do at that point is just a bonus. If you want more in depth DPS, then pick a job with a red icon.
2. Wanting more DPS buttons is literally the same as harder.

---

If this was the case, then tanks should lose their healing because they didn't sign up to heal. DPS should lose their healing because they signed to DPS, not heal. In fact, tanks should also lose their entire DPS kit besides 1 button for Single target and 1 button for AoE and only get mitigation skills every expansion instead of a shiny new DPS skill, because they signed up to tank, not DPS. If they're worried about losing aggro from the lack of damage (rotation), tank stance can literally be adjusted to give from 10x aggro generation to 20x aggro generation. Problem solved. After all, this makes TANKING easier, no? Now tanks can solely focus on mitigating and positioning the boss, not worry about DPS rotations since it's making the TANK role more difficult.

Then you tell me how fun it is to play Paladin with just Spamming only Fast Blade or Prominence and maybe using 1 or two mitigations and waiting for another 20+ seconds until one falls off to apply a second one... and repeat this until the boss dies. The vast majority of the tanks will scream at you if you said this was good in the tank forums.

The reality is that both of the other roles other than healer have expanded their toolkit to also include healing, but healers don't have anything new outside of one button mashing for 90% of their gameplay when everyone plays well. There is a literal imbalance with the way jobs are designed and content is designed, and the excuse of signing up to heal no longer holds water because other jobs are also able to contribute to the healing effort.

Holy, some really do not understand huh? It does not have to be an actual DPS rotation. It’s just one of the many possible ways. If there are people out there who really think “more button presses lead to more dps” then they really have to look at NIN vs BLM rotations.

Spent an entire Tower of Paradigm casting a total of 763 GCDs. There are a total of 698 GCDs spent on DPS spell which consists 570 Glares, 102 Dias, 20 Miseries, 6 Holies. That’s about 91.4% spent on being aggressive against bosses. Should I not be a healer at all? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Nah, I second it.
Any dps rotation will end up taking precedence, and suddenly you'll have every healer unable to heal because they're in the middle of their combo.

---

DNCs combo system & the current 1.5s healer cast time + plethora of healing oGCDs begs to differ.

The only time DNC interrupts their combo is when they use their combo starter twice in a row & when they have to switch between single and AoE rotation. Using procs, oGCDs, and basically everything else do not interrupt it. Even finishing steps still allows you to continue from where you left.

They absolutely can do something similar. But for whatever reason, to them healers are just 2nd rate role & they refuse to give it to us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

1. No. You signed up to heal. SO heal. ANY dps you can do at that point is just a bonus. If you want more in depth DPS, then pick a job with a red icon.

---

The game must be so incredibly boring with an outlook like this. Why force yourself to be so beholden to completely contrived limitations like that? There's no central authority that defines what a healer must be or do in all of gaming.

Historically, juggling healing and dps is a core part of what playing the healer role means in FFXIV, and is why so many people were drawn to the role initially. The reason they gutted healer DPS kits was to make dealing damage easier and more accessible to people who previously refused to engage with that aspect of the role. Unfortunately, SE pandered to the wrong people, failing to realize that those people would refuse to engage with the system regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

After finishing the thread, people are saying "We dont want harder, we want more DPS buttons as healers."

1. No. You signed up to heal. SO heal. ANY dps you can do at that point is just a bonus. If you want more in depth DPS, then pick a job with a red icon.
2. Wanting more DPS buttons is literally the same as harder.

---

More dps button is not engaging healing gameplay IMO.

ARR have more engaging healing, where incoming dmg are hard hitting like Titan HM.
Boss fight that make good use of our supporting skill like sleep, stoneskin, Esuna etc.
Removing those support skill and adding more dps is just as “dump down” as it is now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Nah, I second it.
Any dps rotation will end up taking precedence, and suddenly you'll have every healer unable to heal because they're in the middle of their combo.
SGE is the peak of healer dps rotations, it has a couple of CDs and oGCDs to break up the Dosis/Dyskrasia spam and that's enough. Anything more would be overkill.
They should absolutely bring WHM and SCH up to that level though and AST has cards so to keep it busy.

---

youre talking out of your butt because scholar used to have the most dps skills by far and yet they were always the ones on top of hps charts.
youre also extremely creatively stunted if you believe theres absolutely no way to make healing not interrupt dps rotations, or worse, actually synergize with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is complete nonsense. Healers had additional buttons to manage beforehand and were perfectly fine. The whole problem with this stance is there's nothing to heal. A good number of healers want to heal more but there simply isn't enough outgoing damage to warrant nor do we believe the dev team has any aspirations to change that. Therefore, we're asking for something else to do but one button spam.

Sage doesn't "break up" anything. In Copied Factory, I pressed Dosis II 513 times; more than ten times any necessary heal. You look up any healer log, even average players, and you'll see their one button nuke overwhelmingly dominating every other ability they press.

---

So how many buttons do you want to press?
Is 2 enough? Or does it have to be 3?
1-2-3
What happens if you need to break combo? Or even if other skills don't break combo, what about burst windows or optimising the 3?

Healers can absolutely not having anything that punishes your dps output for interrupting or even delaying a combo, for even a single GCD.
There's already backlash for the fact that GCD heals don't completely reimburse your dps, how bad would it be if there were damage ramping from combos to take into account as well?

"Oh you can't delay your Holy 5 to cast cure because that's a 300 potency loss, you can only heal after a Holy 3"

Plus where are these extra skills going? Button bloat is already bad enough on healers, so you'd have to lose healing skills to make room for them. Then you're dumbing down the actual healing of the job too.

At this point, SE should remove healers and give tanks an eukrasia system, allowing them to upgrade their heals/shields into aoes. It would make a more engaging hybrid job to play with. Imagine having a DPS rotation, heals/shields, and being able to pull everything/ eat TBs. I'd play this anytime over spamming 1111111 for hours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

After finishing the thread, people are saying "We dont want harder, we want more DPS buttons as healers."

1. No. You signed up to heal. SO heal. ANY dps you can do at that point is just a bonus. If you want more in depth DPS, then pick a job with a red icon.

---

I love how these sort of comments assume the dps healer isn't healing or is placing it second priority. We signed up to play support. We do heal. In nearly all cases the dps spamming healer is far better at healing than the "I play healer to HEAL Sylphie", because the dps healer knows the entire toolkit inside out in order to maximize efficiency and uptime, while the healbot just blindly spams GCD heals and is completely unreliable in danger situations.

If you want less depth in your job and only play healer to heal, then YOU should pick up the job with the red icon. Because you're a waste of a healer slot and you're denying your groups a decent support.

Also a few more dps buttons doesn't really make healing harder. Dps is a downtime activity. It's not going to be rocket science if you're pressing 3-5 buttons instead of 1 during those long stretches where not much is happening. It also doesn't change anything from the perspective of a healbot because you ignore your dps toolkit anyway, so why even care if it has 1 button or 20?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Nah, I second it.
Any dps rotation will end up taking precedence, and suddenly you'll have every healer unable to heal because they're in the middle of their combo.
SGE is the peak of healer dps rotations, it has a couple of CDs and oGCDs to break up the Dosis/Dyskrasia spam and that's enough. Anything more would be overkill.
They should absolutely bring WHM and SCH up to that level though and AST has cards so to keep it busy.

---

https://i.gyazo.com/9c7a74badb5e90ff...142eacf652.png

Peak of "rotations" indeed, absolutely nothing to do with the rotation of other healers

https://i.gyazo.com/5fd70114ab6f99e1...32b4b10ca9.png
(Both images are from SAVAGE btw)

Its painfully obvious who talks with and without knowledge about the reality of healers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

So how many buttons do you want to press?
Is 2 enough? Or does it have to be 3?
1-2-3
What happens if you need to break combo? Or even if other skills don't break combo, what about burst windows or optimising the 3?

Healers can absolutely not having anything that punishes your dps output for interrupting or even delaying a combo, for even a single GCD.
There's already backlash for the fact that GCD heals don't completely reimburse your dps, how bad would it be if there were damage ramping from combos to take into account as well?

"Oh you can't delay your Holy 5 to cast cure because that's a 300 potency loss, you can only heal after a Holy 3"

Plus where are these extra skills going? Button bloat is already bad enough on healers, so you'd have to lose healing skills to make room for them. Then you're dumbing down the actual healing of the job too.

---

Gee, it's almost as if you're making it sound like healers don't have 20+ skills designed to be weaved between GCDs (healing skills labeled as abilities) and damage is completely random and unscripted. If damage is coming out and people are going to die, do you think a good healer who runs out of abilities to heal is going to NOT use their healing GCDs if that's all that's left for them to keep the party alive?

If GNB can be designed to not break combo when using their Gnashing Fang Combo, I don't see how healers could not be designed to be not break combo when using healing GCD as a last resort.

GCD heals that don't reimburse healer DPS is currently an issue for WHM only because they have a bigger focus on GCD healing (lilies) only partially refunds their DPS rather than having oGCD healing - which is a design problem for WHM in general as they cannot comparatively compete in the same level as the other healers without incurring loss - but this is a different problem from having DPS skills. This is a healing balance issue that makes WHM comparatively weaker without a toolkit adjustment, which extends to their gauge. WHM lacking a weave slot on Holy only shows there's issues with WHM's toolkit design, which has ALSO been talked about consistently in the healer forums. But that's not what this thread is focused on, because a good WHM still ends up having to spam Glare / Holy for a ridiculous amount of time in any content and would rather Medica II than let the party die - like any other healer that are forced to GCD heal when their free healing resources are used up and the party continues to fail a mechanic by stepping in bad. That's wholly unrelated to lack of DPS buttons when downtime is present.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

After finishing the thread, people are saying "We dont want harder, we want more DPS buttons as healers."

1. No. You signed up to heal. SO heal. ANY dps you can do at that point is just a bonus. If you want more in depth DPS, then pick a job with a red icon.
2. Wanting more DPS buttons is literally the same as harder.

---

Famfrit catboys strike again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

So how many buttons do you want to press?
Is 2 enough? Or does it have to be 3?
1-2-3
What happens if you need to break combo? Or even if other skills don't break combo, what about burst windows or optimising the 3?

Healers can absolutely not having anything that punishes your dps output for interrupting or even delaying a combo, for even a single GCD.
There's already backlash for the fact that GCD heals don't completely reimburse your dps, how bad would it be if there were damage ramping from combos to take into account as well?

"Oh you can't delay your Holy 5 to cast cure because that's a 300 potency loss, you can only heal after a Holy 3"

Plus where are these extra skills going? Button bloat is already bad enough on healers, so you'd have to lose healing skills to make room for them. Then you're dumbing down the actual healing of the job too.

---

Don't act like damage isn't scripted in this game , because it is.

Don't act like tanks weren't given massive improvements to self-healing, because they were.

Don't even recognize that many healing skills could potentially be combined to reduce button bloat, or actually synergize healing and damage.

No, instead fall back on just "it's too much for healers to think about about" Who is dumbing down who here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

So how many buttons do you want to press?
Is 2 enough? Or does it have to be 3?
1-2-3
What happens if you need to break combo? Or even if other skills don't break combo, what about burst windows or optimising the 3?

---

Who said anything about combos? That is your inference not mine. Even if they were to do combos, Dancer's aren't interrupted should they press their procs. They could easily design them around proc based gameplay not unlike Sage's Toxicon system but more refined. QooEr brings up the better argument though. Scholar used to have five buttons to achieve its DPS and not a single one of them interrupted their healing. Ironically, they actually healed more back then compared to nowadays because we lacked the sheer number of overpowered oGCDs. I'd also like to point out Heavensward and Stormblood debuted the hardest content this game has ever seen and yet none of the healers struggled to perform their base role (healing) yet apparently reintroducing those same abilities will cause wanton panic and break all the healer balance.

What absolute nonsense.

They could quite literally take the potency of Glare III, cut it down by half and give us another DoT to manage instead and that alone would be better. Not by a lot but certainly better than what it is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Plus where are these extra skills going? Button bloat is already bad enough on healers, so you'd have to lose healing skills to make room for them. Then you're dumbing down the actual healing of the job too.

---

Since you asked, I'll use the most button bloated healer, Astro, for my example.

- Play merged into Draw (Which should have been the case already)
- Crown Play/Minor Arcana removed entirely
- Benefic upgrades into Benefic II

Doing that alone cleans up a lot of buttons. I'd opt to scrap Minor Arcana because in its present state, it's either a DPS button or a FeelsBadMan because you never need Lady. So we may as well use that button space to give back some actual consistent DPS alternative to Malefic spam. From there, I would borrow Sage's Eukrasia system and give a form of it to each healer with the goal being to shore up hotbar space. That way you could combined Helios and Aspected Helios into a single button, with either being accessible through Astro's version of "Eukrasia". You could do the same with both Celestial abilities.

You could drop Horoscope and bake the potency into the aforementioned GCD heals, same with Synastry, which almost never sees any use. There's also an argument to be made healers have too many oGCD heals. Hence why they have so little to heal. So that's another option to explore. Finally, you could overhaul Astrodyne into a DPS tool for the Astro themselves—especially when playing for three seals offers such negligible gains that even top tier Astro just settle with two. To compensate though, return Divination back to what it was since a random self buff that you press and forget isn't all that interesting on a healer to begin with.

And all this is just off the top of my head. Is it all perfect? Hardly. However, it's a start to both clean up button space and pave the way for interesting gameplay because pressing Fall Malefic 150 times certainly isn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

If you want your job to be engaging, play Ultimate, the hardest content in the game that only a few percentage of actual players do.

---

That should tell you everything you need to know right there.

If only a fraction of the playerbase are doing ultimates, that should suggest that the majority of the playerbase is fine with all of the other content you just dismissed.

If people weren't satisfied with savages and extremes then you'd simply see more participation in ultimates. Even if it's failures. You'd still see more people doing it trying to get better.

If you're so good at the game that doing savages and extremes is like blowing a piece of paper with a breeze, then you have the ultimates. If the challenge that you're complaining about wanting is too hard for you, then get better.

Learn the fights and push the buttons better. If you're as good as you think you are, progression shouldn't be an issue for you. Just because you can't clear it in the first few go arounds, doesn't mean it's "too hard". Do proper progression and get better at the fights over time.

You also have to remember; just because you're good at the game, doesn't mean everyone else is. FFXIV is rather friendly to "bad" gamers. (bad is relative/subjective, it's just the blanket term I'm using.) Yoshi-P knows that the majority of his playerbase aren't going to be clearing ultimates so he has his team focus on the "easier" content.

Just because someone sucks at the game doesn't mean they don't want to feel power progression and move up the raid/trial tiers. So they introduce that to those of us who aren't that good or can't dedicate the time they'd like for proper progression.

So, I see one of two situations here.

A- You're as good as you think you are and should be able to progress in ultimates and this is largely a non issue for you

B- You're not as good as you think you are, can't do ultimate progression very well and are just trying to inflate your ego by telling everyone how easy you think this game is. At which point savages and extremes are likely where you belong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

So how many buttons do you want to press?
Is 2 enough? Or does it have to be 3?
1-2-3

---

Given how often we need to heal using a GCD, especially when paired with a self-sufficient tank (which is a good thing), why not 6 for maximum flashiness, with 2 alternative buttons we can press as "finishers" to our combo for altered visual effects?

Quote:

---

What happens if you need to break combo? Or even if other skills don't break combo, what about burst windows or optimising the 3?

---

A couple of things can happen in this scenario: "healers adjust," as is usual for healers in general, and they kiss your boo-boos better and life goes on. Or the person who forces the break in the combo has their face scraped across concrete to rub their nose in the shit they pulled so that they hopefully learn never to do it again.
Because we're a civilized society, and because that person is usually a precious snowflake DPS, it's almost always going to be the former.

Quote:

---

Healers can absolutely not having anything that punishes your dps output for interrupting or even delaying a combo, for even a single GCD.
There's already backlash for the fact that GCD heals don't completely reimburse your dps, how bad would it be if there were damage ramping from combos to take into account as well?

---

This "backlash" basically affects no one, outside of a static where they should be looking to squeeze out every bit of DPS from everyone. Otherwise, healers who don't want to DPS at all typically get away with it, and healers who can't or don't optimize their DPS in encounters aren't typically given any sort of "backlash" for it so long as healing was provided. If "backlash" is given, even if in the form of gentle feedback, and feelings are hurt, then you can bet your sweet, furry ass that we'll see a thread pop up in the forums about being unfairly thrown into GM Jail over something that the OP doesn't even remember happening and the GM can't/won't provide details for.

So you don't have to worry, Squeen is already thinking of the children.

Meanwhile, having GCD heals take away from your DPS in general has lead to wanting to primarily use OGCDs for healing instead, and since this has been a thing for a few expansions now, the mentality the dev team has been inadvertently growing actually supports the ability to have a GCD combo.
You might actually be referring to WHMs being unhappy with Afflatus Misery being a DPS loss, but that's actually a legitimate issue, as the "reward" for taking advantage of a class "feature" is less than what you'd get for ignoring it.

Plus, truthfully, not many players are specifically asking for a DPS combo for healers. They're just asking for other things to do, whether it be buffing players, debuffing enemies, providing indirect effects, perhaps setting up something in the battle environment, etc. It doesn't have to be a DPS combo, although that is quite literally the easiest thing that Yoshi-P and his team could provide without dramatically altering the battle design they have been trying to provide over the years.

Quote:

---

Plus where are these extra skills going? Button bloat is already bad enough on healers, so you'd have to lose healing skills to make room for them. Then you're dumbing down the actual healing of the job too.

---

First, healing isn't exactly rocket science. For as nervous as some players get about healing and having "responsibility," healing in this game is conversely just as scripted as the damage provided by enemies in an encounter, so, as with every fight in this game, it's really just about getting used to the encounter as it's presented and pressing the appropriate HP-goes-up button when it's necessary. Maybe more than one if you're like me and either feel the need for it, or you just want to toss more glitter around.

But otherwise, this is another reason why we feel neglected as a role. We're given an overabundance of buttons, and some of them are redundant or obsolete at later levels. It's been suggested many times by many healers to cull certain healing buttons in favor of more useful ones or have them evolve into their stronger forms via traits to save room, with some adjustments here and there for the sake of keeping the skill floor just as low as it has been. Such suggestions include either evolving "Heal 1" into "Heal 2" or combining "Heal 1" with "Esuna" into a single button, both of which are reasonable and would reduce bloat by at least 1 button. Speaking strictly about AST, players have expressed that the Play, Crown Play, and Undraw buttons have been useless bloat, and I'm sure there are other, similarly useless buttons that have been added over time.
There are opportunities, even without trying to add room for DPS, to cull.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saimeren

You also have to remember; just because you're good at the game, doesn't mean everyone else is. FFXIV is rather friendly to "bad" gamers. (bad is relative/subjective, it's just the blanket term I'm using.) Yoshi-P knows that the majority of his playerbase aren't going to be clearing ultimates so he has his team focus on the "easier" content.

---

Believe me, if you've been playing a healer for more than one expansion, then you would be well aware that Yoshi-P likes to design, at least the healer role, specifically for the lowest common denominator. The drool gland can only produce so much drool.

But having a low skill floor doesn't mean that the skill ceiling has to be low as well, and the issue, for us, has never really been about adding difficulty. The issue has been about adding depth.

It is my sincere hope that the healing role continues to become less and less important in subsequent expansions. Giving people more personal accountability by taking away the safety net represented by healers is a great direction to take the game in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saimeren

-snip-

---

Tell me you don't know what Ultimate entails without telling me you don't know what Ultimate entails.

No one should have to commit to something like Ultimate in order to be engaged with their job. And no job should cater to people who are too anxious to play it more than to those who've been maining it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

It is my sincere hope that the healing role continues to become less and less important in subsequent expansions. Giving people more personal accountability by taking away the safety net represented by healers is a great direction to take the game in.

---

Might as well just give everyone personal potions, and limit the number of usages in Savage/Ultimate at this point.

Been thinking about this more since my post above and came up with a very rough outline for White Mage that doesn't radically change the job and hopefully addresses some of the Glare spamming issues.

- Cure upgrades into Cure II
- Medica and Cure III are merged together, with the new "Medica" rebalanced to be closer to Cure III but with slightly less cost and increased radius.
- Solace and Rapture replace Cure II and "New Medica", respectively whenever you have Lilies, with Rapture's potencies adjusted to match "New Medica"
- WHM instantly starts with three Lilies ala Sage
- Assize gets two charges
- Misery is made DPS netural

We've cleaned up four buttons, not that WHM had button bloat to begin.

Now we bring back Fluid Aura as an instant cast DPS ability similar to Phlegma, Aero III and a new Lily DoT. You now have four sources of DPS yet none of these changes impact the healing. In fact, it becomes easier with the change to Medica and the additional charge on Assize. Lilies being DPS neutral means casual players who spam them aren't punished like they are currently. Speaking of Medica, I opted to keep that name over Cure III because it never made much sense that Cure III was an AoE when its naming predecessors were single target. I chose to remove old Medica because it sees almost zero use nowadays, and would be even less relevant with another Assize. The Lily DoT is added kind of in the vain of Samurai's Higanbana. It gives WHM one more DPS option to think about without necessarily being a huge ask for casual players who may forget to press it.

Of course, all of this is still rough and thought out over the last half hour or so. But there's my take on WHM.

I think if they want to fix with the issue with healer engagement something should be done about "Raise" is a mechanic. The main issue with healer is their responsibility, or lack of as people get better in content is due to the fact that the healer is pivotal in keeping the party alive while keeping themselves alive. If you make them die to easy, then no one will have fun, if you give them to much to do, it makes wipes that much easier to occur.

That's where the key issue comes in, the KO status of healer. Now, there are 2 ways SE could go about it.

The first is a Resuscitation Mechanics that allows any role to revitalize a team member on a say 5 min timer, so if both healers do go down, anyone can get them up and keep the fight going.

The second is just giving Healers a Reraise Trait where they start with a Reraise Buff and upon dying/being revived via the reraise they are giving a 10 minute timer on reraise being reapplied. This would at least offer both healers the opportunity to make 1 mistake or both fall at the same time while keeping the fight active.

Basically, in order to fix or rather create more engaging content for the healer to react to, you need to first solve the issue with the downfall of a run when bother healers fall. Adding in a mechanic which puts less strain on the healer to always be on their A game would allow the devs to add more mechanics to keep healers engaged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QooEr

for example i think ive done the first boss of sohm al without healing anyone at all because the boss just dies before anyone is in actual danger of dying. yes the fight ends with everyone at 30% ish hp, but that doesnt mean they needed healing. expert dungeons are especially bad in this regard as opposed to leveling because you actually need to heal the tank sometimes in those

---

For the record, I only took up healing like two weeks ago. I just rolled Sohm Al and did almost exactly the same thing. I think I threw out one heal around 75% then realized that there was no point.

I am not a good healer. I feel pretty happy with my play most of the time, but again I have practically zero experience. I am not an experienced healer.

And yet even as a total noob I still find the job boring because with proper mitigation I just spend most of the time spamming dosis and watching euk dosis countdown. The only times I get *any* consistent excitement are when players aren't doing their jobs correctly. And that is fun to an extent, compensating for tanks not using cooldowns or dragoons stepping in AoEs (holy tangent, it *is* always dragoons(/reapers) and I never noticed that as a tank). But when things are under control and/or everyone is playing well, healers need more to do.

FF XIV is a DPS-oriented game. We need a more engaging attack kit to reward us for staying on top of our role, the same way tanks get some fun combos and bursts to incentivize maintaining enmity/mitigation. And there are several ways to do it without falling into the trap of "pressing more buttons to do less damage". This single-attack spamming is feel-bad design, and really only exists to decentivize attacking at all so healers will actually do their job.

I just find it ironically hilarious/tragic that they want to copy the WoW healing style (of the time) when WoW itself deviated from that formula and since Legion, healer dps has been significantly expanded and synergizes with their healing kit, to the point it's essentially required for most forms of endgame content, not just the highest difficulty, more so for dps-oriented healers like priest or paladin.

For example, let's say casting Glare has a 20% chance to reset Assize's cd, and for each Assize cast, PoM gets 5 secs off its cd - sure, that would only further encourage the Glare spam, but at least that spam would build up to more Assize casts, which leads to more PoM - it's a chain of effects, rather than just casting Glare because you have nothing else to do. Numbers can be adjusted for balancing, but imo even a 121311111131131112311131311... rotation is far more interesting than casting 121111111111112111111111 indefinitely.

(just using Assize as an example, not that I'm requesting Assize specifically to be changed)

I'll never be doing Ultimates, I like the idea but its too much of a slog to learn and prepare for. Provide a better end-game for the rest of us, please.

Don't understand how this was an answer anyway. They don't even release a single Ultimate a year, is this how little they can provide? They flubbed it during Shadowbringers and already bailed on their third Ultimate catch-up plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saimeren

snip

---

I don't need to go into Ultimate when it is not much different than EX and Savage except more unforgiving.

Also, EX and Savage of this tier should account for the fact as an AST I have:

Horoscope, Neutral Sect, Celesital Opposition, Collective Unconciousness, (the occasional) Lady of Crowns, Macrocosmos and Earthly Star for oGCD AOE heals, (6-7)
2 charges of Essential Dignity and Celestial Intersection each and Exaltation for oGCD single target heals (5)
Synastry (which WHEN WILL YOU UPGRADE THIS SKILL TO BE USED FOR EXALT/ED/CI OR SCRAP IT ALL TOGETHER?)

With Benefic 2 (and one if you want to go there), Aspected Benefic, Helios and Aspected Helios for GCD single target and AOE abilities respectively (4)

ON TOP OF A COHEALER

And it DOES NOT. There are not enough healer mechanics in the game for 2 healers let alone ONE when they could easily add to that in EX and Savage and the rest of the trials and raids could be uneffected.

They don't want to do that. Ok fine. Then give us something meaningful to do - more systems like old AST cards where we can support the parties we play in meaningfully. More stuff like Divination and Chain Strat to keep us occupied.

For SGE and WHM why not give them more dps because they don't HAVE support options like AST (and arguably SCH) does? It wouldn't hurt WHM what so ever (with a buff to their mp sustain of course) and it would play into SGE being a healer who heals through damage (cause Kardia AND JUST KARDIA DOESN'T CUT IT I'm sorry!)


Also - Go play a healer through EW when 6.1 comes out and we can replay the story like I did when 6.0 dropped. Every. Single. Solo. Duty. SUCKED. And I did that since ARR.

"Go play DPS for solo duties, Skellington." Ah yes. Let me level two classes at the same time just for solo duties because 1 button mashing shouldn't be a thing for 80+ levels. That sounds fair and legitimate.

in the scuffed soft baby blanket safe kills i had in UWU back in ShB, of my 305 actions total, i had 135 casts of Stone IV. 80 healing casts, with 37 of them being oGCD. nothing changes at all even in Ultimate.

its the kinda tone deaf response i expect at this point. especially after they literally cancelled an Ultimate last expac lol

I don't get why people think that because they're anxious about playing healer, that means that healer is challenging. That's a you thing, not a game thing, friend.

I am sure people are sick of me saying it but I will say it again here. I would rather they roll more support aspects into the healer role than just give them DPS rotations. I feel like giving healers a DPS rotation or a burst phase of any kind will make them feel more like DPS with some healing abilities than healers. Even though the amount of healing abilities will greatly outnumber any DPS options they have, the fact that you spend far more time utilizing your DPS rotation or whatever else they provide will make them feel more like another DPS job than any kind of real healer. Support abilities are very hard to balance though, and depending on who ends up doing what can make one job essential and another useless.

There's an awful amount of MMORPGs from the past to now, that knew that not each healer needs to play the same. Otherwise what's the point of different jobs of healers to exist. Every type of healer that you often see healer mains like myself mentioning has room to exist, especially with four healers being present. A DPS healer, Buff healer, debuff healer, crowd control healer or whatever. That's really where we should be and we could have been there if they didn't go down the route to make all healers play like WHM. Even more aggravating that WHM mains for quite sometime have been asking for more but instead they go down this route. SE knows how to make interesting and engaging healers, they're just catering to those with heal anxiety/lazy healers instead of those who enjoy the role. I seriously miss the days of being able to progress the story on SCH and not be bored out of my mind..sigh..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am sure people are sick of me saying it but I will say it again here. I would rather they roll more support aspects into the healer role than just give them DPS rotations. I feel like giving healers a DPS rotation or a burst phase of any kind will make them feel more like DPS with some healing abilities than healers. Even though the amount of healing abilities will greatly outnumber any DPS options they have, the fact that you spend far more time utilizing your DPS rotation or whatever else they provide will make them feel more like another DPS job than any kind of real healer. Support abilities are very hard to balance though, and depending on who ends up doing what can make one job essential and another useless.

---

I mean I too would rather not have more dps. The thing is encounter design doesn't support it. Would I rather AST cards not all be balance clones? Yes. Would I rather Bard give the party more than measly damage ups? Yes.

The thing is for support to matter outside of dps, the encounters need to reflect that and various classes would need an answer to that in some way so not one is excluded. For example say we have a boss that has a consistent mechanic that requires a cleanse and healers didn't have Esuna (I know they do, roll with the example pls). We're also going to ignore 4-man content for a moment. This would mean that all 3 ranged have answer so MCH and DNC aren't excluded simply because they don't have an aoe cleanse like BRD does while ALSO making it so it isn't a mechanic that parties can't outright ignore (like most healers currently do with Esuna-able dots). Oh and make it so it isn't a role ability, so they're actually different effects between the three ranged.

Is that hard work? Yes. Is that something we can see? Not without a significant overhaul.

Is it therefore, easier to ask for more dps options? Yes. Hence why we do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Who said anything about combos? That is your inference not mine. Even if they were to do combos, Dancer's aren't interrupted should they press their procs. They could easily design them around proc based gameplay not unlike Sage's Toxicon system but more refined. QooEr brings up the better argument though. Scholar used to have five buttons to achieve its DPS and not a single one of them interrupted their healing. Ironically, they actually healed more back then compared to nowadays because we lacked the sheer number of overpowered oGCDs. I'd also like to point out Heavensward and Stormblood debuted the hardest content this game has ever seen and yet none of the healers struggled to perform their base role (healing) yet apparently reintroducing those same abilities will cause wanton panic and break all the healer balance.

What absolute nonsense.

---

Yep, ultimately it didn't matter that Scholar had five damage buttons, or White Mage had two dots, people were not clearing savage at numbers they did not feel was acceptable. It took EM almost a month to world first A8S. One could say it was ultimate difficulty before ultimate existed. A6S tore up a lot of raid groups that tier, and the gauntlet-style fight probably led up longer progression for many. It was also the last time they ever nerfed a savage fight while it was still in lockout relevancy as well. So they knocked Savage difficulty down a few notches beginning with Creator and they have been happy with that standard ever since. Ultimate was kind of a way to get back some of that same single fight difficulty, it's just one fight and diehards will always throw themselves until it's clear and still say there isn't enough. It'll probably never end, or do something to bust the cap on difficulty.

Game play of healers got more watered down simply because erosion of dps buttons and more oGCD buttons, coupled with lesser savage difficulty. It all adds up, and they haven't really gotten it back. Their balancing team has some interesting standards once people get past minimum ilevel. Week one savage final floors with full min ilvl-penta only, and stuff like LL phase in TEA are probably the highest peaks of healer difficulty left in the game.

Healers just need more options for when healing is not needed, I don’t care what they get so long as they get something, anything to break up the monotony of nuke spam.

Content is never going to do this for any skilled player that knows what they are doing and have mapped out their cds, however I shouldn’t also want to have the worst possible group in duties to have enjoyment on an entire role. I had a healer in Expert outright say when I looked away and fucked up a mechanic “Finally something to do” , that’s not a issue with the person that is an issue with the content AND the job design not compensating for each other when one of them lacks oomph.

Go do Ultimates is a very shortsighted and quite frankly insulting response to try and put down the long standing healer complaint that people are bored especially when Ultimates do not even break this up either.

I have been a DNC main since ShB started because I did not like the direction they took healers and I am glad I did because it seems they will never get the actual problem of why people complained as much as they did during the lead up to ShB and beyond.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am sure people are sick of me saying it but I will say it again here. I would rather they roll more support aspects into the healer role than just give them DPS rotations. I feel like giving healers a DPS rotation or a burst phase of any kind will make them feel more like DPS with some healing abilities than healers. Even though the amount of healing abilities will greatly outnumber any DPS options they have, the fact that you spend far more time utilizing your DPS rotation or whatever else they provide will make them feel more like another DPS job than any kind of real healer. Support abilities are very hard to balance though, and depending on who ends up doing what can make one job essential and another useless.

---

Healers have ALWAYS been green dps in FFXIV, and I sure hope it won't change, although I wouldn't mind more engaging healing.

People don't need to agree that SE should add more DPS or buff of whatever.
We just need to agree that healing is not (and hasn't been) in a good state for ages.

No damage enough to heal. And when we don't heal we have nothing to do apart from 1 button spam. In ANY content level.

People have tank anxiety but even so they have more things to do and are less boring than healers (not saying that tanks are in a good situation tho).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aarchie

People don't need to agree that SE should add more DPS or buff of whatever.
We just need to agree that healing is not (and hasn't been) in a good state for ages.

No damage enough to heal. And when we don't heal we have nothing to do apart from 1 button spam. In ANY content level.

People have tank anxiety but even so they have more things to do and are less boring than healers (not saying that tanks are in a good situation tho).

---

Eh I think complaining from the "not enough damage" perspective is not very tenable the way XIV is designed. The devs prioritize and the game has flourished under a philosophy of accessibility, and making the core job duties too difficult just isn't a direction the devs are likely or willing to take the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Eh I think complaining from the "not enough damage" perspective is not very tenable the way XIV is designed. The devs prioritize and the game has flourished under a philosophy of accessibility, and making the core job duties too difficult just isn't a direction the devs are likely or willing to take the game.

---

I'm all about giving healers more downtime options instead of just upping the damage (as downtime happens everywhere) but one thing is caring for accesibility and another different one is having a completely unbalanced healing, having easier dungeons while leveling and good tutorials are for accesibility, echo is for accesibility, having all the max level dungeons, both of the current extremes and the first floor of the current savage tier cleared without healers is a case of unbalanced healing.