Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

I'm not enjoying how Gemshine and Precious Brilliance work. Why not just replace the buttons for the Outburst / Ruin line of spells when you're attuned to a particular element the same way bahamat and phoenix work. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I don't see a reason to use Outburst/Ruin line while attuned to an element.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I'm not enjoying how Gemshine and Precious Brilliance work. Why not just replace the buttons for the Outburst / Ruin line of spells when you're attuned to a particular element the same way bahamat and phoenix work. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I don't see a reason to use Outburst/Ruin line while attuned to an element.

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The only use I could think of not combining them is if you mess up and go ifrit at a bad time and don't want to lose gcds.
(also to give the illusion that smn has more going on than it really does)

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Originally Posted by Roda

The only use I could think of not combining them is if you mess up and go ifrit at a bad time and don't want to lose gcds.
(also to give the illusion that smn has more going on than it really does)

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Yeah. I macro'ed them up. That seems fine aside from not having the right icons all the time. It just seem like a clunky way to do it. It's two extra keybindings for no interesting choices.

Beyond that I don't miss the dots but I do miss having two bahmaut/phoenix enkindles. Still figuring it all out.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I'm not enjoying how Gemshine and Precious Brilliance work. Why not just replace the buttons for the Outburst / Ruin line of spells when you're attuned to a particular element the same way bahamat and phoenix work. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I don't see a reason to use Outburst/Ruin line while attuned to an element.

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Outburst/Tri-disaster > Instant AoE > Mountain Buster is the reason. Same with Garuda.

Otherwise I'd say the same and just consolidate into one button.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Outburst/Tri-disaster > Instant AoE > Mountain Buster is the reason. Same with Garuda.

Otherwise I'd say the same and just consolidate into one button.

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Good point. Hrmm. I really just need to rethink my keybindings from the ground up. It's hard though with so much muscle memory built up.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I'm not enjoying how Gemshine and Precious Brilliance work. Why not just replace the buttons for the Outburst / Ruin line of spells when you're attuned to a particular element the same way bahamat and phoenix work. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I don't see a reason to use Outburst/Ruin line while attuned to an element.

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yeah i was wondering the same but its a way to keep the charges

so far i do like it. it took me a minute to come up with a fun opener but i got it now and i think its cool.

The new Summoner is nice. I feel like i'm doing the summon part and getting benefits for doing so. It feels really good like i'm able to be more mobile at times. Tho i haven't been able to play much more due to the queue's being so high. Ahh well it was my mistake for logging out to get food.

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Originally Posted by VictoriaLuv

I am personally happy with new summoner. being a dot mage was never fulfilling. your pets where ugly had long list of problems. new fresh looking summoner is how summoner is so post to be.

million dollar jeopardy question. what is a summoner?

A. Summons someone who summons things help them fight
B. Warlock clone from world of warcraft. (ew) with mind you very ugly pets

If anyone has paid attention to this franchises long list of summons, party member summoners then you know answer is A

and no those chicken nugget floating things are not summons. they remade summoner. so later they can summon Shiva and Leviathan even Ramah. yay a mage can utilize all elements in the game

over all feel of summoner so much better then old. summoner has smaller and yet more awesome rotation. let me remind you all current summoner rotation is in fact quote massive. being biggiest in game 35-40 button rotation. new one is solid. 22 button rotation making job feel good is right direction.

Besides Bio/Maisma are more nercomancer spells or some other cast they bring in thats more dedicated to dots or just buff bard to be dots dps of the whole game

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mmmm... chicken nuggies.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I'm not enjoying how Gemshine and Precious Brilliance work. Why not just replace the buttons for the Outburst / Ruin line of spells when you're attuned to a particular element the same way bahamat and phoenix work. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I don't see a reason to use Outburst/Ruin line while attuned to an element.

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Because if they actually properly compacted this class and didn't bloat out the hotbar it would literally be a one-hotbar job, not including role actions.

Elemental summons could be reduced to one button, Carby shield and not-devotion could be merged into one button because there's no reason to not use them around the same time, ruin IV could just replace ruin III for a GCD (or just not exist at all with how useless the skill is), Energy drain could be trait upgraded to siphon and have AOE damage falloff, same AOE damage falloff trait upgrade for Fester+painflare, Astral flow could just be merged into the summon GCD itself, and as you said, the gemshines could become replacers for outburst and ruin. That's 13 buttons that could be merged down to 6, or 5.

Tanks have more buttons we commonly press than this. FFS they should've done that and replaced all the missing hotbar space with heal OGCDs, that way we could finally get the healer we've all been asking for, too.

On that same line of thinking you could do that with pretty much the entirety of tank and DPS jobs too. I think square just wants SMN to need to use hotbar space. RDM has a similar issue.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

Because if they actually properly compacted this class and didn't bloat out the hotbar it would literally be a one-hotbar job, not including role actions.

Elemental summons could be reduced to one button, Carby shield and not-devotion could be merged into one button because there's no reason to not use them around the same time, ruin IV could just replace ruin III for a GCD (or just not exist at all with how useless the skill is), Energy drain could be trait upgraded to siphon and have AOE damage falloff, same AOE damage falloff trait upgrade for Fester+painflare, Astral flow could just be merged into the summon GCD itself, and as you said, the gemshines could become replacers for outburst and ruin. That's 13 buttons that could be merged down to 6, or 5.

Tanks have more buttons we commonly press than this. FFS they should've done that and replaced all the missing hotbar space with heal OGCDs, that way we could finally get the healer we've all been asking for, too.

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I don't know about all that. But I've found myself trying to cast Gemshine/Precious Brilliance when I should have been casting Tri-Disaster/Ruin III or vise-versa many many times today. Its because they are both filler abilities used in the same situations but on different keybindings. I also really dislike Gemshine being a casted ability while under Ifrit and an instant while under the other attunements. It completely destroys muscle memory. I would use Ruin II when I needed to move and Ruin III when I was safe to cast. Different abilities for different situations. Not so anymore.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

Because if they actually properly compacted this class and didn't bloat out the hotbar it would literally be a one-hotbar job, not including role actions.

Elemental summons could be reduced to one button, Carby shield and not-devotion could be merged into one button because there's no reason to not use them around the same time, ruin IV could just replace ruin III for a GCD (or just not exist at all with how useless the skill is), Energy drain could be trait upgraded to siphon and have AOE damage falloff, same AOE damage falloff trait upgrade for Fester+painflare, Astral flow could just be merged into the summon GCD itself, and as you said, the gemshines could become replacers for outburst and ruin. That's 13 buttons that could be merged down to 6, or 5.

Tanks have more buttons we commonly press than this. FFS they should've done that and replaced all the missing hotbar space with heal OGCDs, that way we could finally get the healer we've all been asking for, too.

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I think that does speak something of the current design though doesn't? They say SMN is the new third job but I feel RPR has more depth than SMN. SMN is basically the same job 90 as it is at 30, they just keep upgrading the same basic spells (Ruby, Topaz, Emerald, Aethercharge, Gemshine, Precious Brillance). This is truly the art of phoning it in.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I think that does speak something of the current design though doesn't? They say SMN is the new third job but I feel RPR has more depth than SMN. SMN is basically the same job 90 as it is at 30, they just keep upgrading the same basic spells (Ruby, Topaz, Emerald, Aethercharge, Gemshine, Precious Brillance). This is truly the art of phoning it in.

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I wonder which job doesn't have more depth than SMN. Maybe only MCH, and that's a maybe.

MCH can be trickier with overheats. So, no.

But your answer is RDM.

(Or Glare Mage, for DPS.)

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Originally Posted by Superskull85

MCH can be trickier with overheats. So, no.

But your answer is RDM.

(Or Glare Mage, for DPS.)

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I wonder if you ever optimized RDM because the job has a nice amount of depth and optimization and it's not a secret. It's quite funny to even think that MCH could have more depth.

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Originally Posted by rewd

I wonder which job doesn't have more depth than SMN. Maybe only MCH, and that's a maybe.

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Mch has resources they build and monitor throughout their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Superskull85

MCH can be trickier with overheats. So, no.

But your answer is RDM.

(Or Glare Mage, for DPS.)

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Rdm has procs, mana, an internal mechanic that sets a rhythm for its casting which can be exploited for utility, combos, finishers, resource management tools...

We have three buttons that come off cooldown that are all pressed at the same time, and some ammo we have to spend as soon as physically possible.


(and if one person comes at me with "primal order" literally every non-phys-ranged job has to worry about uptime. That is a BARE MINIMUM level of engagement. And with fights being so damn predictable, that will become less of a factor the more familiar you are with a fight. A job is more than just pressing buttons.)

Once again, we are not summoning, we're waiting. And we have just about as much interaction with our summons as we would if we were to just look up the opening cutscenes for primals in the unending journey.
SE is doing that thing again where they focus really hard on making a video, and neglect the second word in the product they're making. The "GAME". The fights are too scripted to have jobs that play themselves.

I have been spending more time playing, of course, and had time to do content beyond leveling. I suppose SMN now is just the easy mode job for casters, if you can demonstrate willpower. The most difficult part of the job is holding back the urge to double weave during Garuda and Carbuncle phases and not weaving during Ifrit. The job still feels busy during stressful content, but it is WAY easier than any other DPS I have played before, if you have self control.

In the end, I think I am happy after all. This new SMN seems to actually punish you for trying to use your spells and abilities too fast during some moments, or even hitting glowy buttons too soon, and it forces you to strategize a bit and think about what you need to do next. SMN, to me, is now a job that has many choices at any given moment and rewards self control. I cannot think of any other job I have played in this game that does not want to mash their special skills as soon as they come up, so it is unique.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

I cannot think of any other job I have played in this game that does not want to mash their special skills as soon as they come up, so it is unique.

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But that's pretty much any other job that has oGCDs. For example DRG doesn't want to use more then one jump in a GCD window or else they might clip. Or MCH who only wants to use one charge of Gauss Round or Ricochet during an Overheat GCD else it clips. I could go on.

Yeah, but those are not special skills. At all moments during a fight, I usually have two or three icons flashing at me as SMN, like any of the pets that I have not used yet or Ruin IV. Even after the initial Bahamut and Pheonix summons I have Enkindle and Astral Flow flashing at me and I need to take care not to mash them all at once.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

I cannot think of any other job I have played in this game that does not want to mash their special skills as soon as they come up, so it is unique.

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Ignoring how every class tries to line up special skills with burst windows, BRD had (has?) this quite a bit where you wanted to manage skills around DoT ticks to prevent overcapping procs. As a simple example, when in Mage's ballad in 5.x with Bloodletter and Empyreal Arrow both ready you would want to hit the weaker button first, as EA triggers a BL proc. You'd also want to think about the next DoT tick before using EA in WM and MB, as EA near a DoT tick could overcap for that song. There were other examples of this, as well.

New-SMN feels like it's all about being able to keep your mental bookmark in a semi-dynamic rotation at all times. Ruin and Gemshine being different buttons felt strange to me at first, but it's actually what makes it so important to keep your head straight. If you lose track of your attunement stacks and press gemshine, you lose a GCD. If you autopilot into a capstone summon and keep trying to push Gemshine, you lose a GCD. This wouldn't be the case if the buttons were consolidated. Given that there's some filler space in the rotation, the punishment for mental mistakes would be almost nil if the buttons were consolidated. Against a target dummy, of course, keeping mental track of your rotation is easy. Nothing about the rotation itself is difficult. The challenging part is going to come when you start contorting your primal order around fight mechanics, going through them in different orders each time through the cycle. I'm a fan of the design: there is palpable purpose behind the choices they made when putting this rework together.

The good and bad of the rework both rest on the same fact: this is a new class. I did not like old-SMN, but I really like new-SMN - enough that I'll be maining it for savage next tier. Great for me! For those who want the theme but disliked the old mechanics, this is fantastic! For fans of old-SMN, though, this is a big oof. Old-SMN is just plain gone. This is, for all intents and purposes, a completely new caster class. I expect that they're clearing the way for a 4th caster that will be a better thematic fit for a DoT-based class, but in the meantime that niche will go unfilled.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

New-SMN feels like it's all about being able to keep your mental bookmark in a semi-dynamic rotation at all times. Ruin and Gemshine being different buttons felt strange to me at first, but it's actually what makes it so important to keep your head straight. If you lose track of your attunement stacks and press gemshine, you lose a GCD. If you autopilot into a capstone summon and keep trying to push Gemshine, you lose a GCD. This wouldn't be the case if the buttons were consolidated. Given that there's some filler space in the rotation, the punishment for mental mistakes would be almost nil if the buttons were consolidated. Against a target dummy, of course, keeping mental track of your rotation is easy. Nothing about the rotation itself is difficult. The challenging part is going to come when you start contorting your primal order around fight mechanics, going through them in different orders each time through the cycle. I'm a fan of the design: there is palpable purpose behind the choices they made when putting this rework together.

The good and bad of the rework both rest on the same fact: this is a new class. I did not like old-SMN, but I really like new-SMN - enough that I'll be maining it for savage next tier. Great for me! For those who want the theme but disliked the old mechanics, this is fantastic! For fans of old-SMN, though, this is a big oof. Old-SMN is just plain gone. This is, for all intents and purposes, a completely new caster class. I expect that they're clearing the way for a 4th caster that will be a better thematic fit for a DoT-based class, but in the meantime that niche will go unfilled.

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This game is not designed for DoTs which is why they have been, slowly but gradually, getting rid of them. They already made BRD's DoTs irrelevant in 6.0 and they are obviously on the chopping block for 7.0. 0 chance we are getting any class designed on DoTs.

I am completely lost on the new rotation. I'm only level 65, so am missing some chunks. But am confused as to what to do when you have your three elemental available.



I know. I'm a noob. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

New-SMN feels like it's all about being able to keep your mental bookmark in a semi-dynamic rotation at all times. Ruin and Gemshine being different buttons felt strange to me at first, but it's actually what makes it so important to keep your head straight. If you lose track of your attunement stacks and press gemshine, you lose a GCD. If you autopilot into a capstone summon and keep trying to push Gemshine, you lose a GCD. This wouldn't be the case if the buttons were consolidated. Given that there's some filler space in the rotation, the punishment for mental mistakes would be almost nil if the buttons were consolidated. Against a target dummy, of course, keeping mental track of your rotation is easy. Nothing about the rotation itself is difficult. The challenging part is going to come when you start contorting your primal order around fight mechanics, going through them in different orders each time through the cycle. I'm a fan of the design: there is palpable purpose behind the choices they made when putting this rework together.

The good and bad of the rework both rest on the same fact: this is a new class. I did not like old-SMN, but I really like new-SMN - enough that I'll be maining it for savage next tier. Great for me! For those who want the theme but disliked the old mechanics, this is fantastic! For fans of old-SMN, though, this is a big oof. Old-SMN is just plain gone. This is, for all intents and purposes, a completely new caster class. I expect that they're clearing the way for a 4th caster that will be a better thematic fit for a DoT-based class, but in the meantime that niche will go unfilled.

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My problem with ruin 3 and gemshine being separate buttons is that it's not even consistent. Ruin 3 is used for phoenix and bahamut, but for the egis it's a completely separate button. Feels a bit tacked on honestly. I can understand some of the argument (if you need to interrupt ifrit for some reason, having a faster cast ruin 3 makes sense) but even for mental gymnastics it doesn't feel like it was especially well thought out and just is a bit cumbersome for the sake of being cumbersome.

I do agree that the class is about having a semi-fluid mind and having a different, changing tempo rotation. But at the same time I don't think the class is better for it being separate buttons strictly speaking. It's one thing to change up the tempo and rotations, but another to have an annoying rotation purely as a 'gotcha!' mechanic.

And right now, gemshine/precious brilliance feel like a 'Gotcha!' mechanic, not something truly interesting to the class. I'd rather they weren't gotchas, and did something else with the buttons. The class needs more something in it, but I couldn't possibly say what it needed. Probably going back to ShB's rocker rotation for phoenix would be a good start (The whole ruin 3/outburst alternation part) and trying to bring that dynamicism to the class instead of silly gotchas.

This then leads into things like Enkindle and Deathflare being separate buttons from summon bahamut. Now, since Deathflare is now also just straight up part of bahamut, why is enkindle bahamut a separate button from summon bahamut? You can only use it once, you can only use summon bahamut once, the 2 are functionally exclusive and one follows the other.

When I complain about things like button bloat, it's things like this that I start talking about, where enkindle bahamut really should not be a unique button. It exists to bloat bars and, while SMN's bars aren't exactly bloated with barely 16 buttons purely for offense, but it speaks volumes when you can safely say they feel actually redundant.

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Originally Posted by rewd

This game is not designed for DoTs which is why they have been, slowly but gradually, getting rid of them. They already made BRD's DoTs irrelevant in 6.0 and they are obviously on the chopping block for 7.0. 0 chance we are getting any class designed on DoTs.

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At this level, you summon one of them and use your attunement through Gemshine or Precious Brillance as modified versions of Ruin or Outburst/Tri-Disaster. Depending on the summon, the modifications are not the same: Ifrit is more powerful but with a longer cast, Titan is instant with the same power I think, Garuda is instant with a fast GCD but less powerful, which is good to move.

The difficulty will come from choosing the order of the 3 summons depending on the fight. You do not want to cast longer with Ifrit if the fight throws AoE on the ground at you, for instance.

Only thing I miss is being able to glamour the 3 summons. Don't care if on paper they do the same thing, but gimme Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan. My 3 favorite summons except for bahamut xD

1. Ifrit Titan and Garuda should be OGCD. The class feels like it was designed more around weaving with the change to ruin and a large number of spells being instant cast but we have hardly any ogcds to weave.

2. Ifrit and Titan should be ranged like Garuda. Assuming at 90 they function the same way. I feel like the hit boxes make Ifrit and Titan feel wonky and it does not hit all the targets well. It seems like they use there move at max range and clip the enemy you target rather than get in its face and execute the move. Making them all ranged is a more simple fix though let alone decreases the delay of the action going off.

3. For those of you that want the class to be a little more complex. I think it would be cool to be allowed to summon any of the 3 summons instead of each one once. They would have to likely do some balancing but I think it would add some spice to the class.

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Originally Posted by abesut

Only thing I miss is being able to glamour the 3 summons. Don't care if on paper they do the same thing, but gimme Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan. My 3 favorite summons except for bahamut xD

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Pretty sure we will be seeing those next expansion as the summons we do after Pheonix, it's almost a perfect setup for the next expansion jobs.

For my part my first initial thoughts while doing leveling roulettes and current dungeons?

Thank freaking god, I have a consistent rotation throughout the leveling process that doesn't change every time I go into a new duty. The rotation is consistent at every level and just adds new bells and whistles throughout the expansion. The job still feels busy during its opener, and I don't even have the Favors yet from 86, which is the biggest addition to the rotation proper itself that starts to differentiate the phases well. I very much like the pace and flow of the job I like that the rotation feels tight still, but being able to do the summons in a different order and make me think about when to use them (Ifrit especially) brings back the feeling of Stormblood summoner being able to choose when to rush through Aether stacks. I wonder if that same rush idea might be a good idea with Ifrit Garuda and Titan summons at max level if an enforced downtime is about to happen, so that after downtime you can go right into the next Demi phase. If so that will be really nice. The mobility is... Holy god the mobility is amazing. What are cast times. Get those suckers out of here.

There are negatives, I liked the DoTs, and without them fester and painflare feels like it needs a bit of an aesthetic overhaul to something that fits new Summoner's current aesthetic (and just overall I find myself in constant anxiety not seeing DoTs ticking on the bosses target bar). Searing Light being based off the position of the carbuncle still sucks, really wish they would change that. Pheonix not having it's 1,2,1,2 rotation makes its section a bit more dull now compared to Bahamuts. And while I'm sure once I properly adjust to the stat squish I will feel the dopamine rush of one really hard hitting AkhMorn/Revelation well enough, but I preferred more having two during the trance.

Wish Elemental Mastery was level 78 instead of level 86. Job is monotonous Ruin spam without that trait.

I got my SMN to 90 and the job feels complete now and I like it. The three new elemental favor spells you get at level 86 change up the job and give it the meat other jobs seems to have. Those spells and the big summons are also fun to use--I find it hard to not sing that one Akon "smack that" song during Titan phases now and smacking my foes with a book is satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

I got my SMN to 90 and the job feels complete now and I like it. The three new elemental favor spells you get at level 86 change up the job and give it the meat other jobs seems to have. Those spells and the big summons are also fun to use--I find it hard to not sing that one Akon "smack that" song during Titan phases now and smacking my foes with a book is satisfying.

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There is a huge design problem if a job needs to reach level 86 to feel complete.

Oh! I also want to jump in here and say that there seems to be a clear order to summon the three elementals in at level 86 and beyond. Ifrit's Crimson combo is quick and big damage, so you kinda want to lead with it. The two Ifrit charges are also best used early in a fight before everything starts getting killed because of the cast times. The Titan phase comes next, because it is also big damage that is highly mobile for repositioning after Ifrit and gives you a lot of opportunity to weave other spells if you need to. The Garuda phase goes last because it has one high damage cast spell you want to get off, but the other spells are pretty much the same DPS as Ruin III and Tri-Disaster, so you do not lose anything significant if you run out of time and need to clip the Garuda phase to jump into Bahamut/Pheonix.

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Originally Posted by rewd

There is a huge design problem if a job needs to reach level 86 to feel complete.

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Yeah. I was only leveling SMN from 54 to 60 recently but while I do enjoy the gameplay loop, it really does seem like the job hardly changes for majority of leveling. Most things from progression are upgrades to existing stuff, and while I'm not hating on that design mentality specifically, it happens way too much that it doesn't really feel like you get new toys, so to speak. Dreadwyrm Trance is an upgrade to Aethercharge, but mechanically it just makes the ruin/outburst casts instant and gives a new visual. Which is nice but again, doesn't feel that different. Level 60 you get Deathflare as an ogcd.to use during dreadwyrm trance which is good. However, that same ability that turns to deathflare gives you the level 86 abilities, and I feel like those 3 spells should have been added in the 60-70 range at most, considering that from level 30 all the way to 86, you're having the nearly the same exact rotation. Aethercharge/Dreadwyrm/Summon Bahamut, Slow 2 casts, instant 4 casts, really fast instant 4 casts. It feels unfinished for majority of it.

yes you do have other stuff, like ruin 4, but those dont add much in the way of the rotation and are more just add ons. The level 86 abilities do change the core gameplay loop a bit to make it more fun and varied.
Plus, the description of gemshine and precious brilliance state that you do fire, wind and earth damage respectively, but until *level 72* they just look exactly like ruin (at least at 60, Astral flow updates ruin and outburst). Which is just a visual change but I feel its really important because then it does feel like you're just using slightly slower or faster versions of ruin (which not to mention, before level 54 looks really boring). They should have added the fire, wind, and earth effects far earlier than level 72 especially since that looked like a huge selling point in the job trailer, that you get to use elemental attacks now.
Not to mention the primals themselves, level 90 is way too late to update the summon of egis to summons of ifrit, garuda and titan. I realize you get bahamut at 70 and phoenix at 80 but getting the full job fantasy only at level 90 isn't good. Should have them earlier, at least by 80, and put the capstone as something new.
I was originally planning to grind Summoner to at least 80 when EW came out but quickly found out about how bad the level progression was and how I'd have to wait a long while for anything new and exciting.

TL;DR, Summoner only really feels finished at 86, 90 for the job fantasy. Leveling progression is very boring.

So I got level 86 today and can say it does change the job from mundane to somewhat engaging, mainly because it because a very fast paced and spammy job.

Ifrit Phase if you slowest with longer cast time and some odd dash that I don't care. Would like for the second part of that combo to be a dash back.

Garuda Phase is dropping the ground AoE DoT that last for 15s, then spam 1.5s attacks 4 times.

Titan Phase becomes weaving a oGCD and GCD together 4 times.

Bahamut and Phoenix are still the same; Enkindle, spam 1 or 2, and weave ED/Fester in between.

Elemental Mastery is something that needs to come sooner rather than later, levels 60 or 70.

I'm still disappointed in the direction the job went and wondering why on some of the design choices. For one, after almost 7 years now why couldn't they have added Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan? The mechanics are now in play; Aethercharges adds 3 primal elements. DWT could have added the umbral element Ramuh, Titan, and Leviathan while FWT could have added the Astral elements of Ifrit, Shiva, and Garuda. I know some say maybe next xpac but it's been a very long time coming and what better time then when you do a complete overhaul.

Another is why remove pets outright but keep them for the most annoying thing. For years players have asked for Devotion to be moved from pet to players because pet disappeared during Demi Phase. Now you can't used Shield or Devotion when Egi or Demi is summoned only compounding the problems. Further more would it have been such an issue to just have Carby and Egi auto attack for a little added damage but let alone retain a shred of old identity?

Aetherflow is something that just feels like it's on life support now and ED should just be tossed with Fester and Painflare going to charges.

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Originally Posted by rewd

There is a huge design problem if a job needs to reach level 86 to feel complete.

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I disagree. I think most new jobs feel incomplete before they reach the level cap that they were introduced in.

I've played SMN in a few alliance raids and trials and I can say overall with boss mechanics the job performs fine and you suffer very little downtime as a result. I'd say give it more of a chance.

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Originally Posted by rewd

There is a huge design problem if a job needs to reach level 86 to feel complete.

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That's not a problem with SMN though, thats been a problem with EVERY job in this game literally since 2.0. Incomplete rotations and kits the moment your synced down from max level. WHM without holy in any dungeon during ARR. Black Mage without Fire 4 till level 60 in HW. WAR without Inner Release till 70 in SB. SMN without Phoenix at 80. The list can go on and on.

Bringing it up here isn't really the best commentary on SMN, as it's literally the overall design philosophy by Yoshi's team since day one. Wither its good design or not is your call. I dislike it as well, but I sill say that of the many cases we had EW SMN is one of the less egregious examples. At least the entire core loop is available to you from basically level 50 on, so unless you are in literally beginning level dungeons you actually have a loop you can practice on, which is a net positive for new players compared to the old Summoner leveling experience for pretty much every expansion, where you essentially played a different job every 10 levels.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

That's not a problem with SMN though, thats been a problem with EVERY job in this game literally since 2.0. Incomplete rotations and kits the moment your synced down from max level. WHM without holy in any dungeon during ARR. Black Mage without Fire 4 till level 60 in HW. WAR without Inner Release till 70 in SB. SMN without Phoenix at 80. The list can go on and on.

Bringing it up here isn't really the best commentary on SMN, as it's literally the overall design philosophy by Yoshi's team since day one. Wither its good design or not is your call. I dislike it as well, but I sill say that of the many cases we had EW SMN is one of the less egregious examples. At least the entire core loop is available to you from basically level 50 on, so unless you are in literally beginning level dungeons you actually have a loop you can practice on, which is a net positive for new players compared to the old Summoner leveling experience for pretty much every expansion, where you essentially played a different job every 10 levels.

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How many jobs feel completely empty and barren until level 86 in Endwalker, besides SMN? If the answer is "No other job" then it is a SMN problem.

The only job that gets close is Reaper, which at least "only" has to wait until level 80.

Black Mage- Doesn't have access to amplifier or paradox till 86, which without having to focus on your timers anymore is literally the only skill ceiling on the job now besides fight knowledge.

White Mage- this Job is literally always baren.

Scholar- See white Mage

Monk- Half of it's masterful blitz abilities are unlocked post 86, and masterful blitz is literally now its core mechanic with greased lightning gone.

Paladin- Entire new Confetior rotation not unlocked until freaking 90, and it was one of the more boring tank jobs before this.

And this is just if you set the nebulous level of 86. Every other job have core mechanics left out of their kit at 65 or above that just leaves their kits feeling rough and incomplete. So no it is not JUST a SMN problem. Every job has 100's of hours of gameplay essentially made very bland due to the decision to ability sync with your level.