Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I never thought I'd see the "Yet you participate in society" guy on the forums.

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Nope. I am the "tired of people like you whom feel entitled and offended by everything" guy on the forums. GG

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Nope. I am the "tired of people like you whom feel entitled and offended by everything" guy on the forums. GG

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Have you looked in the mirror lately?

Pay him little mind. His post history doesn't exactly show endearing traits nor much ability to contribute something of note.

But it's fun :(

So I've been on Summoner more, as per your suggestion, specifically Leviathan, though I'm sure there are likely exploitable points in Titan such as cleaving Gaols that probably don't play nicely.

The interesting part about these rotational skills like Trance and Reassemble is that they opted for the 55 second approach instead of, I don't know. Giving them charges.

Charges give some more upfront power but largely solve the drifting issue and they already spent all this time to develop it.

It seems odd that rotational skills don't similarly follow the charge system more, and as Polyglot and old Aetherflow-Trancing was effectively just informal charge system, I can see the annoyance of being left out of the formal system.

Unless it wouldn't. I don't know. Seems like it would with minimal ramifications.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Well, the reality is SE balances jobs around the possibility of them being used to the fullest. They need to do that to balance content after all, things like enrage timers are tuned around what the jobs can do in theory, they have said this explicitly in past interviews. So metrics derived from average gameplay are irrelevant, and black mage is still very much 'smoking' summoner if you include 5.0 parses (which you should be, since all the good black mage parses were done before the patch, and most are preparing for ultimate now).

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Is there any actual recent, official statement on this? I've heard conflicting things on SE's behalf about balance. Sometimes, they disregard that there's a best comp and assume any composition, sometimes they disregard difficulty, sometimes they disregard the top end of raiders... and sometimes they don't. They're so inconsistent...

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Super multi-post snip

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I agree with a lot of things that you say.
FFLogs is down atm, but I checked last night and iirc SMN was winning out in rdps overall statistics for Eden Savage on the 95% and 99%. You and other posters have mentioned that the 99s are relatively curated runs (good mechanic rng, good crit opener, etc) and I agree, but the 95% dataset offers a good view of what a competent player can do.
This isn't SMN VS BLM, it's SMN VS everyone. SMN having superior or comparable rdps to top end rdps jobs as a result of its own damage and its (albeit meager) offensive utility means that SMN can replace any job without a loss. It also has Addle as defensive utility (probably the best there is from the dps jobs right now), so it's more or less on the top end for both of these metrics. Then it has the rez which, while not as good as RDM's, it's still quite valuable. It also has access to incredible mobility, literally second only to ranged dps jobs (even better than RDM as part of it is on-demand; one of the weakest points of RDM's theoretical mobility is that sometimes you need to move for 5 gcds in a row and that incurs a bit of a loss no matter what). Taken as a whole, this pushed SMN to become a contender for the most powerful dps job in the game, judging by recent numbers. Even if some super lucky/curated/high effort SAM/BLM/MNK can beat it, on average, they probably will match it at best and lose out most of the time.

The reason why BLM and SMN get compared so much isn't because they're both casters. It's because they lack real differentiating factors beyond the rez and superior mobility the SMN has. BLM has no Mantra and no Feint or whatever. It has Addle, same as SMN.

You mention how there are 10 reasons why people favor SMN over BLM and damage isn't one, and you're right.
The point here is that the only reason why anyone would ever favor BLM over SMN is the damage. Actually, this goes for any job VS BLM (except SAM, it's in the same boat as BLM).
You mention how BLM also competes with other jobs for a spot and you're right. It bothers me SAM is currently edging over BLM, especially with how fragile this job can be (I know people like to live in lalaland where holding Sharpcast and Xeno for mobility willi-nilly is a thing, but there's often a real opportunity cost with holding key cooldowns for long and honestly, if Titan starts car, you won't even have some of them off cooldown for the meteors things, which can really mess up a run).


Further, if double caster did pick up, strictly for prog you'd want RDM and SMN for the biggest possible safety net. The only way to break out of that would be a brutal dps check that would push people towards a different comp. But they haven't done anything like that in a long time, and even if they did, we'd have much bigger problems (not only RDM would be in trouble there, but half the dps roster).

Like, a lot of the points you bring up are truthful and valid, but the argument as a whole is a bit disingenuous. The fact that the highest parsing BLM/SAM/MNK outdoes SMN marginally doesn't exclude that, on the 95~99% range, SMN wins out more often than not, and that SMN has extra utility none of those powerful jobs can match (through the rez), that it's more mobile than BLM, that is has the ranged edge over SAM and MNK and is just all around really damn strong- in fact, possibly the strongest there is.
It'll be a prime pick, as it is, for prog because it offers a raise without tanking the dps too hard (you could easily use it on a first clear with almost 0 cost towards the enrage- even the previous iteration on 5.0 was actually used to that effect on world first attempts).
The speedrun meta adjusts slower, but I'd be surprised if it ends up being picked up in there (time will tell, took a bit for the double ranged/double melee meta to pick up in HW too, and for double casters to show up in 4.5), if these logs are any indication. Hell, if double caster becomes a thing, then it has representation as a core pillar both on prog and on speedrunning (although this isn't a SMN only problem... glares at DRG).
And, just for a more casual (but serious) raider, the job is still probably the best choice over, well, any other dps. It has it all: top-end rdps, nice mobility and one of the strongest utility suites in the game.


P.S.: on the ML comment, I do some weird experiments with a friend on BLM (Transpose memes and other weird stuff) to gain a bit of pps. It's quite fun to have a job as fluid as BLM (even if most people perceive it as having a "simple rotation"; it's so fluid and rng-heavy it's only the semblance of a "rotation"), but it's also a bit sad how much elbow grease you need to put to maybe get 50 dps above a SAM or a SMN... but well, like you said, I picked this road out of my own accord. I just like the job. Even if I'll be on SMN duty for Alex.

P.P.S.: Really, the "max" argument is a bit silly. It's like saying "if you DH/CH every Despair/Xeno/Midare, you defo will do more dps!". Which is technically true, but is quite unlikely...

P.P.P.S.: I'm really posting this wishing I could pm you instead but well, I guess I can put my thoughts out for the world to see.

We don't know either, but it's something we have discussed a lot with regards to Aetherflow stacks. It's honestly the last annoying system outside of pet AI and the Egi Assaults 1-4 buff system.

I can understand why they do not want to have Trances subject to charges, it's far too much rush potential even if it is more reminiscent of rushing in the past. The context with 5.x has shifted with the presence of Demis every minute, as opposed to building up to one every 2.

to "balance" Smn.., see 2 solutions.

1) either nerf Smn a tick..

2) or buff Blm and Rdm a tick (since 5.1. Blm is lower on average than before with zero utility, even behind Smn at times & Rdm still feels a tick low)

... unless everyone thinks Smn damage isn't too high at all (in general for its utility .. and compared to Blm & Rdm)

if the numbers suggest that summoner is going to surpass BLM and break dps balance then there is no point arguing about it cause it was proven mathematically.
however it doesn't mean that summoner changes need to be reverted, i believe they were right with them but if it is too much then SE just need to buff the other 2 more.
BLM didn't receive anything to up his game and if RDM might still be in a bad spot then he should get a bit more love.

there are still need to be changes to summoner to make it feel right in my opinion(his kit still feels too detached from one another and egi needs to have more depth in the kit core) but making the pets have proper damage scaling is a good thing SE did.

and true there will never be true balance,even if there was a proper balance, as long as people yearn for numbers there will always be those that cry on the small and tiny difference or that it still feel too low for them. it doesn't mean they should stop complaining.they too care about their current job and if they are wrong ,people will simply debate with them and explain why they are wrong about their complains. :)

p.s. thank you OP for bringing this up

Everyone going on about "buffing other jobs as compensation" and I think our dps potential is way too high and every job needs a nerf or we need actual dps checks back.
Seriously, the checks are inexistent. I literally died as SMN today and we skipped Smokers on E3S...
I really don't think this SMN should be the baseline.
I already didn't think MNK/DRG/BLM in 5.0 should be the baseline either... job powercreep is a bit out of control.

I know this probably isn't the place for this kind of thing and I'm not trying to signal the end of the world but right now I really feel like there's no point playing RDM with SMN outside class loyalty lol. I know its silly and I'm more of a "hardcore" casual player that just does primals and 24 mans so I know normally people think that "w/e you like play it" is the usual thought process but...personally I value class balance above a lot in this game. Of course, I will continue to play RDM whenever I feel like it and of course I like the new stuff with potency additions but right now just looking at both classes from my perspective, I feel like RDM is just pointless if that makes sense? I feel like a BLM who has to take the risks when I cast for absolutely no reward...and I have a raise spell.

These are just my thoughts as a RDM main and I don't speak for every RDM out there. I just wanted to get this off my chest. I'm not for nerfing SMN because apparently a lot of players like these changes. However, I would like RDM to feel more rewarding to play if I'm going to choose it over SMN if that makes sense?

Sorry if this post was a mess.

The last few pages citing fflogs have all been using "All fights" for the curated dps instead of looking at each individual fight. You cannot do this because some SMNs have extremely padded E1S runs where they phoenix the meteor orb phases and the fight ends just after giving them I think an extra 1000-1400rdps over whoever is just behind them. Making the overall curve favor smn since in every other fight they're about 100-400rdps below blm/sam from what I remember. Obviously can't check at the moment but it's a number skewing the overall average that people seem to think applies to every fight.

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Originally Posted by Helena480

Sorry if this post was a mess.

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RDM rDPS in most fights from what I recall is about 200-500 behind SMN. Which is about where it was in 5.0 most of the time too, except now both classes are pushing much bigger numbers. If this were still the 2000 gap between smn/rdm and blm I would understand the concern but honestly it's not that big of a gap so there's no need to feel concerned playing what you want to play.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

The last few pages citing fflogs have all been using "All fights" for the curated dps instead of looking at each individual fight. You cannot do this because some SMNs have extremely padded E1S runs where they phoenix the meteor orb phases and the fight ends just after giving them I think an extra 1000-1400rdps over whoever is just behind them. Making the overall curve favor smn since in every other fight they're about 100-400rdps below blm/sam from what I remember. Obviously can't check at the moment but it's a number skewing the overall average that people seem to think applies to every fight.

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can't speak for the rest but as for me at least i use 95% parses as max allways gets skewed one way or another and is also generally bad to compare different classes in the sense that 1 class may have several hundred dps swings one way or another completly outside your control while other classes do basically the exact same damage every single try if played the same and can tell you that even e1 excluded summoner up to 95% is basically equal to blm or even above, like 120 higher than blm on levi and 20 below on titan or something like that, e2 is the one fight where blm shines but thats basically a training dummy, if that counts as a "fight" (as far as mechanics actually affecting classes go) than e1 has every right to count as well, padding be damned. you can make the argument that at max parses this doesn't hold true anymore, though in truth we are lacking the data for that conclusion because while blm indeed didn't get changed it had months to reach its top parses, smn had a week, but 95% means literally 19 out of 20 groups would be better of with a summoner than a blackmage

E1S offers 3 chances for quite easy padding on smn vs every other fight being all single target which is why even at lower percentiles SMN can still easily be on top. Just the biggest pads uploaded are such a huge gap that it affects the overall metric if you sort that way.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

E1S offers 3 chances for quite easy padding on smn vs every other fight being all single target which is why even at lower percentiles SMN can still easily be on top. Just the biggest pads uploaded are such a huge gap that it affects the overall metric if you sort that way.

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and e2s is such an outlier in just how much of a training dummy the boss generally is we probably won't see another fight quite like it in all of eden, i do very well see reason why "all parses" is bad, as padding through e1 is very much real, which is why i flat out stated that i look at it in a per fight basis and smn wins out in both levi and titan in 19 out of 20 cases while offering the rezz as a bonus, saying "e1 as a fight makes it bad to use "all fights" as a metric is a fair point, but one should also accept that e2 as a fight is playing to blackmages strengths to a degree like no other fight has done since stormblood release and "zero downtime, absolutely minimal movement, with the group bending over a bit just so you can parse better basically no movement at all" is just as much an outlier for a fight as a fight with several chances to pad on adds, which again is why i cited both e3 and 4, cause these both fall way closer into the realm of "regular fight you will see more often"

I still laugh at these balance talks, as if DPS actually matters outside of clear times. Any class can complete any content, in any composition. There are no hard DPS checks that are even worth mentioning unless most of the party/raid is dead.

What really matters about SMN is how the job's rotation is easy to understand yet still a hot mess with conflicting abilities, such as Egi Assaults and Trances being part of mutually exclusive rotations that cannot be interrupted without seriously messing up your rotation or clipping heavily.

I absolutely agree with the OP of this thread. It is deeply upsetting to other casters that SMNs are contributing the same amount of damage as BLMs without having to pay "the raise tax." (plus they have everlasting flight)

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Originally Posted by CrazyAce

I still laugh at these balance talks, as if DPS actually matters outside of clear times. Any class can complete any content, in any composition. There are no hard DPS checks that are even worth mentioning unless most of the party/raid is dead.

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"People shouldn't give balance feedback unless classes straight up can't clear content" isn't actually as clever of a talking point as you think it is, and its not a perspective shared by the developers of this game, given that every class that got buffed this patch could clear all content just fine, yet balance changes still were made.

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Originally Posted by CrazyAce

I still laugh at these balance talks, as if DPS actually matters outside of clear times. Any class can complete any content, in any composition. There are no hard DPS checks that are even worth mentioning unless most of the party/raid is dead.

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Late to the party aren't you?
This argument just encourages the idea of healers not DPSing since 'there is no hard DPS check, DPS doesn't matter!'.

We already argued that a really bad group using the toptier damage dealer would have less trouble clearing content than an incredibly good experienced raiding group with the bad jobs.
MNK and BLM were almost a free pass to the savages back in 5.0, you could simply ignore Thunder as a BLM and still pull a better DPS than 3/4 of the ranged, how fair was that?
I remember about a FFLog were a group barely passed E4S because of the highest DPS composition while if one played a DNC/BRD/RDM/NIN/SMN that clear would have not happened.


Also, Alexander Ultimate says Hi.
I'm curious to know about your raiding experience considering you don't even think about Ultimate content that is about to drop in less that a week.

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Originally Posted by Garash

I absolutely agree with the OP of this thread. It is deeply upsetting to other casters that SMNs are contributing the same amount of damage as BLMs without having to pay "the raise tax." (plus they have everlasting flight)

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dont abuse,
blm outdps smn and red mage with 3000 rdps difference during a entire raid tier,
now summoner is not op, it is slightly too strong, and a good blm still wins at dps
the fact that he is so strong is not really his dps is his mobility.


and take as an example everlasting flight is a big joke, since it's a little situational regen that is not always effective .

dont compare Blm from other tiers to assess Blm now.., Blm has had huge issues throughout every expansion

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Originally Posted by remiff

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It was actually just shy of 1.5k.
And the FFlogs data disagrees with your statement... a good SMN wins out. You literally need to dig into top 50 for BLM to win out.
But yes, 5.0 was definitely imbalanced. You do yourself a discredit by being so hyperbolic :c

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

dont compare Blm from other tiers to assess Blm now.., Blm has had huge issues throughout every expansion

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This isn't true either. As far as casters go, 4.4/4.5 was actually mostly ok.
The QoL changes on 5.0 were also quite decent for BLM. Funny enough, Midas was also ok for BLM. So the job was pretty much ok 1/3 of the time.
Which is "bad" overall, but honestly it was never horribly dysfunctional, which is better than half the jobs in this game. It might've subpar in terms of balance, but I think BLM was only almost unplayable in 3.0 and 4.0 with the old AF timer and ultra tight rotation.
Those days weren't fun. BLM mains actually have it "ok". Neither great nor terrible.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

It was actually just shy of 1.5k.
And the FFlogs data disagrees with your statement... a good SMN wins out. You literally need to dig into top 50 for BLM to win out.
But yes, 5.0 was definitely imbalanced. You do yourself a discredit by being so hyperbolic :c



This isn't true either. As far as casters go, 4.4/4.5 was actually mostly ok.
The QoL changes on 5.0 were also quite decent for BLM. Funny enough, Midas was also ok for BLM. So the job was pretty much ok 1/3 of the time.
Which is "bad" overall, but honestly it was never horribly dysfunctional, which is better than half the jobs in this game. It might've subpar in terms of balance, but I think BLM was only almost unplayable in 3.0 and 4.0 with the old AF timer and ultra tight rotation.
Those days weren't fun. BLM mains actually have it "ok". Neither great nor terrible.

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maybe before, but now the blm have one of the best caster kit, not in sense that not have any raid utility , but at the level of the job disign for the downtime and mobility 5.0 blm is by far the best blm disign.

For the Summoner,
yes he beats the blm who have 75% performance or below, if the summoner beats them because his kit is more mobile and will not be interrupted, a medium blm can easily lose a fire 4 and is by this made more punished by his mistakes than a summoner

the high-percentage blm stay far ahead of the High % Summoner at the dps lvl

and the only way to correct this problem is to increase the firepower of the blm and its mobility kit
or completely destroy the Summoner , smn dps need to be decrease very slightly 400 dps less is fine .

rDPS on FFlogs over the entire tier for E4S (Titan) at the 99th percentile. BLM, MNK, SAM are still higher than SMN in a movement heavy fight.

https://i.imgur.com/Lir9g9K.png

Also most groups make the rangers Limit Break so that is why their DPS may be lower than usual compared to everyone else.

Compare SMN versus everyone else in E1S at the 99th percentile. SMN is just great at padding the adds and orb phase compared to everyone else. SMN is the only job that can attack the boss and the 4 orbs at once as far as I know.

https://i.imgur.com/YSGv4oy.png

Now let see how SMN does in a striking dummy type of fight like E2S. SMN got a lot better, but still much less than BLM and MNK's all time highs at the 99th percentile. SMN dps is still lower than the new SAM.

https://i.imgur.com/xAmIrmT.png

Of the DPS we are, White Mage is pretty much the only other job that can hit all 4 spheres and Eden efficiently. E1s is going to be heavily skewed to us from that alone, it's why prior to 5.10 that our E1s numbers appeared "healthier" vs the upper half if you looked at total damage and not boss damage. If you look to boss damage now we're much closer bounded, however, it shows more of the same story of Summoner's current strength.

Let's look at E3S (Leviathan), the fight almost everyone thinks is annoying because of the mechanics. SMN is still lower than BLM, SAM, and MNK (before Anatman nerf). BLM has not been nerfed at all to put that in perspective.

https://i.imgur.com/puwNmHH.png

So overall, SMN got a big buff which everyone believes is true. However, E1S is where the data can get skewed a lot because of the ridiculous cleaving potential SMN has over any other DPS job (besides WHM like Nemekh stated).

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Originally Posted by lulunami

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Looking at those images, I'm too distracted by the sadness that is BRD.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Let's look at E3S (Leviathan), the fight almost everyone thinks is annoying because of the mechanics. SMN is still lower than BLM, SAM, and MNK (before Anatman nerf). BLM has not been nerfed at all to put that in perspective.

https://i.imgur.com/puwNmHH.png

So overall, SMN got a big buff which everyone believes is true. However, E1S is where the data can get skewed a lot because of the ridiculous cleaving potential SMN has over any other DPS job (besides WHM like Nemekh stated).

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Yet this does not justify the mobility clause that Ranged has been under for years. SMN has had mobility yes, but at a cost to either it’s MP or Damage for that GCD unless the cast for the spell is Instant. If they are going to keep SMN like this this time around, they are going to have to improve the Ranged Role’s Damage capacity and nullify the mobility tax they have with DPS(MCH comes to mind with this).

This is why I've said many a time here, on discord and elsewhere that this is not a matter of SMN vs BLM, but the bigger picture with all jobs in mind regardless of whether job roles are shared with us or not.

Of the jobs that received increases which specifically included all Ranged and RDM, none were lifted up to the extent that Summoner was. Bringing awareness of this was not a call for nerfing SMN, but for one to show cause for concern in particular to the jobs still lagging considerably behind.

The big picture is important. SE can go even further with improving balance globally. They have said they will be continuously making adjustments and I hope they will make the right calls.

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

This is why I've said many a time here, on discord and elsewhere that this is not a matter of SMN vs BLM, but the bigger picture with all jobs in mind regardless of whether job roles are shared with us or not.

Of the jobs that received increases which specifically included all Ranged and RDM, none were lifted up to the extent that Summoner was. Bringing awareness of this was not a call for nerfing SMN, but for one to show cause for concern in particular to the jobs still lagging considerably behind.

The big picture is important. SE can go even further with improving balance globally. They have said they will be continuously making adjustments and I hope they will make the right calls.

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Given their track record...uh, I don't know. They tried to make a step in the right direction, but given that we got Healer Layoffs in the form of boredom, Homogenized Tanks that actually work, and DPS Balance Disparity I'm reminded too well of how Stormblood was balanced horribly. Given how SE has worked before, if they don't talk about a job for months at a time(mind you, they've stayed silent on the radar regarding healers because they're worried about backlash) like how in Stormblood MCH, DRK, SAM, RDM, and WHM were largely ignored despite players speaking out to fix the problems, I feel like there's a layer of misplaced conception on the development team's end.

What they generally focus on is accessibility and the casual end, and that has literally been the story of 5.0. Balance and changes globally to DPS as well as how classes play and feel since they ran into issues in both Heavensward and Stormblood with balancing raid synergies. What I believe they should be making strides towards is to actually listen to the people who play at high-end outside of influencers, namely Savage since that is where real challenge is for your job and your capability as a player(especially healers, because they've been pouring craploads of feedback on both AST and SCH since Day 1). "But what about the casual side where I don't care about Savage?" people may ask who are reading this.

Right now the jobs are balanced in a way that all jobs are capable of going through MSQ with their current kits. Adjusting potencies and QoL for Savage Raiding will not affect Casual Players in any way unless they pull a fast one like they did with making NIN's Ninjutsu GCD, which changes the feel of the job. Even then, it's an adjustment people may have to get used to to understand whether it's better or worse than before.

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

This is why I've said many a time here, on discord and elsewhere that this is not a matter of SMN vs BLM, but the bigger picture with all jobs in mind regardless of whether job roles are shared with us or not.

Of the jobs that received increases which specifically included all Ranged and RDM, none were lifted up to the extent that Summoner was. Bringing awareness of this was not a call for nerfing SMN, but for one to show cause for concern in particular to the jobs still lagging considerably behind.

The big picture is important. SE can go even further with improving balance globally. They have said they will be continuously making adjustments and I hope they will make the right calls.

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They told us SMN would get a big increase in damage. You can't compare the degree of difficulty between RDM and SMN or even MCH so its justified according to SE. Of course they will make adjustments but this thread is really just a rant. This thread is not going to sway SE one bit as they will make adjustments based on their data. The changes will come so people just need to chill.

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

They told us SMN would get a big increase in damage. You can't compare the degree of difficulty between RDM and SMN or even MCH so its justified according to SE. Of course they will make adjustments but this thread is really just a rant. This thread is not going to sway SE one bit as they will make adjustments based on their data. The changes will come so people just need to chill.

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That's like stating that SE doesn't in anyway listen to feedback at all, when the devs themselves state to leave all feedback here on the OF. And as changes so far in 5.X to Monk, Ninja, Bard, Summoner and Samurai proves, long thread's like this ABSOLUTELY have an effect on the devs.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

That's like stating that SE doesn't in anyway listen to feedback at all, when the devs themselves state to leave all feedback here on the OF. And as changes so far in 5.X to Monk, Ninja, Bard, Summoner and Samurai proves, long thread's like this ABSOLUTELY have an effect on the devs.

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Where did they say that?

I mean, you say that, but in the tank forums people have been asking for changes for many things for months...and yet nothing but silence from SE. Even something as innocent as changing back the GNB sound effects to what they were on release, that even had a straw poll with overwhelming support. Did we see it even mentioned in the 5.1 live letter? Let alone the patch notes themselves? Of course not.

SE looks at data 99% of the time, only making changes if there is a universal outrage about something on the forums, otherwise this is just a place for discussion, not feedback.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

rDPS on FFlogs over the entire tier for E4S (Titan) at the 99th percentile. BLM, MNK, SAM are still higher than SMN in a movement heavy fight.

https://i.imgur.com/Lir9g9K.png

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These charts affirm my belief that the state of the game now is objectively more balanced than it was at the start of the expansion (of course, it's also far from perfect). As long as we're looking at rdps (raid dps), having as many jobs as possible clustered together in output is a good thing. Rdps does not differentiate between a mega buffer like dancer or a pure dps like black mage, and in an ideal world, every single job would have roughly equivalent rdps. If all jobs in the game were clustered in that space between black mage and ninja, that would be a spread of no more than ~5% between the highest and lowest, which I'd consider a fantastic result.

In fact, as long as it's about rdps, there would be no issue if the positions of, for example, black mage and ninja were reversed on that chart. Ask yourself, is there any reason black mage and samurai need to be on top for rdps? That's an outdated and biased holdover from the time we only looked at raw dps, where of course jobs like that were on top in those metrics. We might've gotten used to seeing that, but with rdps it's anyone's game. It's a much more holistic metric, and like I said, as long as we're looking at a 5% spread at most, I'm satisfied with the result whoever is the lucky winner.

So clearly there's work that still needs to be done. As you can see, summoner (and ninja during the prior mini-patch) have been adjusted to conform with the pack. Assuming the data in the chart is conclusive, red mage could stand to receive a little more help, and all three ranged jobs need a serious helping hand. If you think me joking about reparations wasn't funny, what do you consider the reversal of fortunes jobs like blm and the ranged are showing now? Relative to past expansions. Things like that don't happen out of nowhere, no one has gotten as fat off the spoils of war as blm right now.

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

They told us SMN would get a big increase in damage. You can't compare the degree of difficulty between RDM and SMN or even MCH so its justified according to SE. Of course they will make adjustments but this thread is really just a rant. This thread is not going to sway SE one bit as they will make adjustments based on their data. The changes will come so people just need to chill.

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This thread isn't a rant. I would know given that I started it.

SE have shown that they do take the greater state of things into account, even things posted on the English language forums and not just the Japanese side. Many things here they have paid attention to, fixed and addressed. For feedback oh did they listen across all regions. For SMN every single abuse case I listed before 5.0 release, even the really obscure ones, were made impossible on Shadowbringers release. Every Summoner bug gets addressed quickly after being reported, to the point of the servers being brought down for a hotfix. Name one job more bug-ridden over the history of the game.

You're still talking as if you understand the nature of things when truly you do not. As per usual, your posts in this thread and elsewhere contribute nothing of value.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

Where did they say that?

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They mention it often during Sampos, PLLs, anniversary streams, interviews and talks over at Fanfests. The OFs absolutely are their go-to for our feedback. Even if I do believe that coverage of the non-JP forums is to be desired at times.

BUFF BLM (i play smn too but lately ive been enjoying blm more)

Buffing BLM isn't necessarily the answer. Constantly buffing jobs leads to power creep which is not desirable either. Nerfs don't feel good but they're just as important as buffs in balancing.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Buffing BLM isn't necessarily the answer. Constantly buffing jobs leads to power creep which is not desirable either. Nerfs don't feel good but they're just as important as buffs in balancing.

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especially as buffing blm probably would lead to cries of "buff samurai" which would follow "buff every other melee, samurai is too strong" all of that while still ignoring the seriously sad state of the physical ranged role as a whole.