The idea that we need to DPS must go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Your CORE role is finishing the dungeon, not standing around with a thumb up your butt for the 90% of the encounter that requires zero healing.

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That would be your core objective, my dearie, not your core role. And no dungeon or raid that I know of requires healing for only 1/10 of the duration of any given battle. Or do you just constantly expect perfection from total strangers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

The difference is that tanks not mitigating and dps performing poorly is a sign of them failing at their CORE role, while healers are expected to perform their CORE role as well as another role (dps). Don't blame healers for other's failures and don't compare the two situations because they are not the same.

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But by your logic, tanks perform another's role as well: they're suppose to grab enemy attention and mitigate damage (tank's CORE) AND dps.
Not to mention, what better way is there to keep your party alive then eliminating the source of the damage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I believe that doing dps as a healer is an accepted expectation in dungeons and raids and definitely a good thing, but I also believe anyone that takes exception to a player not doing dps as a healer needs to get over it. If you are still alive because of the healer then be happy that they are at least doing the minimum while performing their role and close your airhole.

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I was hired as a cashier. A C-A-S-H-I-E-R. Do you honestly expect me to also clean the counters and mop the floor? I don't recall my interview including janitorial services as a part of my job description. That is not. my. job. Sir or madame. You hired me to run the cash register, and that's what I'm doing. What more do you want from me?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

But by your logic, tanks perform another's role as well: they're suppose to grab enemy attention and mitigate damage (tank's CORE) AND dps.
Not to mention, what better way is there to keep your party alive then eliminating the source of the damage?

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What a silly argument. How do you expect a tank to hold agro without doing damage? Does a healer need to do damage to heal? Obviously not. Logic indeed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

That would be your core objective, my dearie, not your core role. And no dungeon or raid that I know of requires healing for only 1/10 of the duration of any given battle. Or do you just constantly expect perfection from total strangers?

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Where is this mysterious constant outgoing damage I keep hearing about? Is there a poison puddle people stand in? I could queue as a WHM right now and guarantee the overwhelming, no contest majority of my casts would be Holy and Glare. That's WITH people playing badly. So yes, it appears as though the game as designed makes my primary activity casting damage spells.

"Healers should heal only" post number 59542565.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I was hired as a cashier. A C-A-S-H-I-E-R. Do you honestly expect me to also clean the counters and mop the floor? I don't recall my interview including janitorial services as a part of my job description. That is not. my. job. Sir or madame. You hired me to run the cash register, and that's what I'm doing. What more do you want from me?

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I mean, yes? I hope this is you agreeing with me and not you saying that your job forces you to clean up after others. Dude, stand up for yourself. There really IS someone there who is paid to do that for you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Not to mention, what better way is there to keep your party alive then eliminating the source of the damage?

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This ^^

Also, whoever revived this thread - well played! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I mean, yes? I hope this is you agreeing with me and not you saying that your job forces you to clean up after others. Dude, stand up for yourself. There really IS someone there who is paid to do that for you

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Wow. I'm legitimately speechless.

Oh, this thread again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I believe that doing dps as a healer is an accepted expectation in dungeons and raids and definitely a good thing, but I also believe anyone that takes exception to a player not doing dps as a healer needs to get over it. If you are still alive because of the healer then be happy that they are at least doing the minimum while performing their role and close your airhole.

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No, sorry. I don’t condone griefing. That’s what you’re doing when you choose not to DPS as a healer.

Why is it that healers get the pass for being practically AFK during content simply because they’re healers? You’d expect DPS and tanks to not be AFK 80% of the time, would you not? You’d expect them to perform their role, right? A part of the healer role now is to deal damage. There’s not enough healing to go around to justify not DPSing, and healers do too much damage to just stand around and it be excusable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

And no dungeon or raid that I know of requires healing for only 1/10 of the duration of any given battle. Or do you just constantly expect perfection from total strangers?

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True, in normal mode is even less than 1/10th of the duration

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Oh, this thread again.



No, sorry. I don’t condone griefing. That’s what you’re doing when you choose not to DPS as a healer.

Why is it that healers get the pass for being practically AFK during content simply because they’re healers? You’d expect DPS and tanks to not be AFK 80% of the time, would you not? You’d expect them to perform their role, right? A part of the healer role now is to deal damage. There’s not enough healing to go around to justify not DPSing, and healers do too much damage to just stand around and it be excusable.

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Griefing by healing and healing alone. That's a good one. Enjoy your gaming vacation when you vote kick someone for that reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

True, in normal mode is even less than 1/10th of the duration

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Make a YouTube video of you running a current content dungeon and showing overall healing being done for less then 10% of al encounter time and I'll change my views. Should be easy from what you say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

What a silly argument. How do you expect a tank to hold agro without doing damage? Does a healer need to do damage to heal? Obviously not. Logic indeed.

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Simple, have all their weaponskills only generate enmity while doing 0 damage.
They don't need damage to generate enmity, just like how you think healers don't need to do damage to help kill enemies quicker, the ultimate form of damage mitigation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Griefing by healing and healing alone. That's a good one. Enjoy your gaming vacation when you vote kick someone for that reason.

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You are basically AFK at that point. Most of your casts in content is always damage, not healing ones. There simply isn’t enough outgoing damage to warrant it. You’d want to kick a DPS that was just auto-attacking would you not? Or a tank that only single-targets or auto-attacks and loses aggro, right? How about one that does their AOE three times and then AFKs for the rest of the pull? It’s the same thing here. Healer DPS is a mitigative tool. It kills packs faster. It makes the content go by quicker, and it’s a team contribution. Last I checked, that’s typically valued in group play. AFK play is not.

Difference of playstyle is a valid reason for kicking someone still, anyways. Hard to punish if the majority of a party don’t want to play with a practically AFK healer. Nice try, though. :)

That said, I usually go healer to avoid having to deal with the Netflix ones, so. My experience with “heal only healers” is that they can’t even heal properly. I end up picking up their slack in both healing and damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Make a YouTube video of you running a current content dungeon and showing overall healing being done for less then 10% of al encounter time and I'll change my views. Should be easy from what you say.

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I mean, you can do the current Expert dungeons without a healer at all. It’s been done. Nice try, though.

Why don’t you make a video proving that there is high healing uptime in dungeons? Sounds fair enough, since you want to argue this point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

What a silly argument. How do you expect a tank to hold agro without doing damage? Does a healer need to do damage to heal? Obviously not. Logic indeed.

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You're obviously a troll, but just because I'm equally bored - that would've held water before ShB, but now that tank stance works as a perma aggro button literally everything they learn after lv 10 [excluding mitigation actions, obviously] is redundant for tanking, yet there they are, summoning giant swords from the sky or spinning like beyblades on fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

https://i.gyazo.com/17a95aac8c67cc03...9f5bf977c8.png

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Unrelated to the thread but I'm curious, where does Kardia/Kardion sit on in the chart? is it baked into Dosis, or was it not used at all? or do passive healing just not appear in those kind of charts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Make a YouTube video of you running a current content dungeon and showing overall healing being done for less then 10% of al encounter time and I'll change my views. Should be easy from what you say.

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Echirontios normal mode, if you count the cpm of my healing actons is 8,25% (Kerachole,Physis2,Pneuma,Ixochole, Panhaima and Holos)

https://i.gyazo.com/17a95aac8c67cc03...9f5bf977c8.png

"BuT YoU WeRE CHAddiNG YoUR CoHEaler" you could say so...
https://i.gyazo.com/49b167495431d0a4...069dec9cfc.png
(and look at the overhealing...)
Can I then ask you to please learn how healing gameplay really is before coming here to say nonsensical stuff and defending lethargic gameplay?

Edit: I'm with HyoMinPark, I've shown you how nm can require less than 1/10th of healing, now show us those dungeons with such high healing requirements that you gotta spam heal continuously

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Why don’t you make a video proving that there is high healing uptime in dungeons? Sounds fair enough, since you want to argue this point.

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I mean, they say in their forum profile they're a tank and DPS main who finds healing challenging and only have WHM at 90 and SGE at 70 (probably either just unlocked or is just sitting on it because it was "too challenging" for them).
If their only healing experience is the sub-par WHM plus their 7 years of WoW, it makes sense that they think all healers are/should be heal-princesses. :B

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

The difference is that tanks not mitigating and dps performing poorly is a sign of them failing at their CORE role, while healers are expected to perform their CORE role as well as another role (dps). Don't blame healers for other's failures and don't compare the two situations because they are not the same.

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Haha, how surprising. When other roles perform poorly we suddenly stop coddling them. No one expected this shocking turn of events! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Make a YouTube video of you running a current content dungeon and showing overall healing being done for less then 10% of al encounter time and I'll change my views. Should be easy from what you say.

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I have plenty of footage to where bosses do not do enough damage for the stupid amounts of healing tools I have. I've just been waiting for a video editing software to put it all together.

I highly doubt me posting it is going to do much. I doubt it is worth an upload, because I'll have many, many people say I'm a hardcore healer when in reality I haven't even TOUCHED EX this tier. Hells I don't even think I have the EX and savage raids unlocked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allegor

You're obviously a troll, but just because I'm equally bored - that would've held water before ShB, but now that tank stance works as a perma aggro button literally everything they learn after lv 10 [excluding mitigation actions, obviously] is redundant for tanking, yet there they are, summoning giant swords from the sky or spinning like beyblades on fire.



Unrelated to the thread but I'm curious, where does Kardia/Kardion sit on in the chart? is it baked into Dosis, or was it not used at all? or do passive healing just not appear in those kind of charts?

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Its barked into dosis I think, since its not a button I press towards the casts per minute it doesn't count. Embrace is the same, since its not a button Sch press does not count towards the casts per minute

I press unnecessary healing buttons even in savage so I reduce the risk of falling asleep when healing and here we are with the daily DPS in the healer forums telling us we are a bunch of elitists that expect perfection because *checks notes* we don't afk after we heal the pitiful amount of damage this game has.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I mean, they say in their forum profile they're a tank and DPS main who finds healing challenging and only have WHM at 90 and SGE at 70 (probably either just unlocked or is just sitting on it because it was "too challenging" for them).
If their only healing experience is the sub-par WHM plus their 7 years of WoW, it makes sense that they think all healers are/should be heal-princesses. :B

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This is not my only character. I made that profile on my first character nearly a decade ago when 60 was the cap. It's pathetic to think you can know a person based on such a tiny and outdated sliver of info and casually insult them with it. How petty of you.

Personal attacks are the result of failure at being able to debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I mean, yes? I hope this is you agreeing with me and not you saying that your job forces you to clean up after others. Dude, stand up for yourself. There really IS someone there who is paid to do that for you

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I'm still stuck at this part. You can't be serious.
Why would any boss of a retail store pay for multiple workers to do multiple tasks when 1 person can do them by themselves during downtime.
Speaking from experience, if during my 7 hours at the bakery i didn't spend my downtime between customers cleaning dishes, brushing breadcrumbs away, cleaning coffee machine, cleaning the counter, etc., I'd literally spend maybe 4 of those 7 hours just doing nothing standing there waiting for customers. No one hires someone expecting them to have this much downtime at their job where they basically get paid to do nothing and that'd be a boring job to begin with. Almost like healing in this game, If i ignored DPS entirely and just healed whenever bubo happens I'd falls asleep behind the counter controller.

Why do we even bother with these arguements anymore? It's the same as I've said before; the entire veteran community argues with one singular person per month about how they're wrong. We do this EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

They eventually give up, then we wait for another one to show up, and do it all over again. Can we just stop feeding please? This arguement is pointless, as we all really know the answer on these forums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I'm still stuck at this part. You can't be serious.
Why would any boss of a retail store pay for multiple workers to do multiple tasks when 1 person can do them by themselves during downtime.
Speaking from experience, if during my 7 hours at the bakery i didn't spend my downtime between customers cleaning dishes, brushing breadcrumbs away, cleaning coffee machine, cleaning the counter, etc., I'd literally spend maybe 4 of those 7 hours just doing nothing standing there waiting for customers. No one hires someone expecting them to have this much downtime at their job where they basically get paid to do nothing and that'd be a boring job to begin with. Almost like healing in this game, If i ignored DPS entirely and just healed whenever bubo happens I'd falls asleep behind the counter controller.

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You're talking about a different profession though. Food workers are trained to maintain sanitary conditions and clean up after themselves while preparing their products. Cashiers are not. They are expected to keep an orderly workstation, but if a jug a milk falls, or a toddler throws up or their floor is dirty, is not housekeeping or maintenance expected to rush to the location and are paid for that purpose. This might be the case at tiny stores where there are few employees, but those poor souls are nationally recognized as overworked and underpaid.

It is not something that should be accepted as a norm or praised.

But we digress..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I'm still stuck at this part. You can't be serious.
Why would any boss of a retail store pay for multiple workers to do multiple tasks when 1 person can do them by themselves during downtime.
Speaking from experience, if during my 7 hours at the bakery i didn't spend my downtime between customers cleaning dishes, brushing breadcrumbs away, cleaning coffee machine, cleaning the counter, etc., I'd literally spend maybe 4 of those 7 hours just doing nothing standing there waiting for customers. No one hires someone expecting them to have this much downtime at their job where they basically get paid to do nothing and that'd be a boring job to begin with. Almost like healing in this game, If i ignored DPS entirely and just healed whenever bubo happens I'd falls asleep behind the counter controller.

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Exactly. I feel like that was definitely the Scooby-doo moment where we unveiled the mask only to find a troll.

In any job anywhere, organization and cleanliness is actually a part of your job description. Even if you've got an office job, you think your boss is going to keep you around if you keep leaving food out and not cleaning up after yourself in the breakroom? It's an expectation that you're not going to be a lazy asshole, making it a part of your job description. And in FFXIV, healer DPS actually is stated as being a part of your job description multiple times in various parts of the game: The Hall of the Novice, Solo Instances where I'd love to see someone exclusively heal through any of those and let the NPCs kill everything, not to mention the entirety of the CNJ class quests which have outlined the structure for healing day 1 of ARR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Why do we even bother with these arguements anymore? It's the same as I've said before; the entire veteran community argues with one singular person per month about how they're wrong. We do this EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

They eventually give up, then we wait for another one to show up, and do it all over again. Can we just stop feeding please? This arguement is pointless, as we all really know the answer on these forums.

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I prefer to combat ignorance, personally. The argument won’t ever go away, but it’s better to contest it so newer players that might be reading understand why these “healers only heal” arguments don’t work in the game.

Plus, this gives me something to do while I’m on my lunch break.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

You're talking about a different profession though. Food workers are trained to maintain sanitary conditions and clean up after themselves while preparing their products. Cashiers are not. They are expected to keep an orderly workstation, but if a jug a milk falls, or a toddler throws up or their floor is dirty, is not housekeeping or maintenance expected to rush to the location and are paid for that purpose. This might be the case at tiny stores where there are few employees, but those poor souls are nationally recognized as overworked and underpaid.

It is not something that should be accepted as a norm or praised.

But we digress..

---

I’ve worked in retail before; I have over a decade of work experience in it. As a cashier at arts and crafts stores, general merch stores, and groceries. Two of which are major American corporations, so not your rinky-dink Mom-and-Pop stores. Cashiers there are trained to help clean up spills even when there are other maintenance/utility personnel. Leaving them is negligence and opens up potential for falls that could result in customers getting hurt and suing the company. So we’re all trained in how to clean up spills.

This analogy easily applies to healers. You are trained to contribute to healing and DPS both. Not just one or the other. To do only one is you failing to perform your full role. Just like tanks are trained to maintain enmity and mitigate; DPS to press their damage buttons and buff the party/mitigate.


Also oops on the double post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Personal attacks are the result of failure at being able to debate.

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And focusing on that while not replying back to my reply makes it seem like you're dodging our conversation. XD
I'm just using information that you provide (on your profile) to speculate where you are coming from with your argument. Meanwhile, you're calling me petty. Who's insulting who? (Not to mention you condescendingly calling Semirhage "my dearie")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Exactly. I feel like that was definitely the Scooby-doo moment where we unveiled the mask only to find a troll.

In any job anywhere, organization and cleanliness is actually a part of your job description. Even if you've got an office job, you think your boss is going to keep you around if you keep leaving food out and not cleaning up after yourself in the breakroom? It's an expectation that you're not going to be a lazy asshole, making it a part of your job description. And in FFXIV, healer DPS actually is stated as being a part of your job description multiple times in various parts of the game: The Hall of the Novice, Solo Instances where I'd love to see someone exclusively heal through any of those and let the NPCs kill everything, not to mention the entirety of the CNJ class quests which have outlined the structure for healing day 1 of ARR.

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Don't even bother tbh. They have a long history of pulling off those sort of deflecting posts.

I must say though, they're pretty good with that.

One of the reasons I like healing is because there's always something to do, including dealing damage. It's very frenetic and fun =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I prefer to combat ignorance, personally. The argument won’t ever go away, but it’s better to contest it so newer players that might be reading understand why these “healers only heal” arguments don’t work in the game.

Plus, this gives me something to do while I’m on my lunch break.

---

Fair and acknowledged. *salute* Thank you Commander Hyomin, will resume regular operations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Why do we even bother with these arguements anymore? It's the same as I've said before; the entire veteran community argues with one singular person per month about how they're wrong. We do this EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

They eventually give up, then we wait for another one to show up, and do it all over again. Can we just stop feeding please? This arguement is pointless, as we all really know the answer on these forums.

---

I'm just like Roger from American Dad. Expelling my venom every day is a natural process that cannot be interrupted. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

As someone who has healed a dungeon with no healing buttons except my fairy cooldowns in 5.0, I beg to disagree (admittedly it was a level 50 dungeon, but those still exist and job design should acknowledge that those still exist.)

If everyone is still alive at the end of the fight then no additional healing will mean you healed it any better.

That said, I’m personally of the opinion that it shouldn’t be the responsibility of healers to dps. Their primary job is to heal, and no one should be kicked (from pugged groups at least) for refusing to dps. I personally can’t stand the idea of sitting on my thumbs and waiting for the next heal to be needed, but that’s me. That’s not everyone.

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Err you mean dps ABILITY - as in singular. Thats right, just 1 attack, over and over and over and over again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Err you mean dps ABILITY - as in singular. Thats right, just 1 attack, over and over and over and over again

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The post you're replying to is from August 2019

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn

We should focus our raid performance on not overhealing and ensuring that we are able to keep our comrades alive throughout encounters. In doing so, we are bolstering community performance and promoting the dev team's ideals of pure healing. I believe this will increase communication and cohesion of the three roles.

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I you like playing Whac-A-Mole with your party's health bars you should try WoW and see how fulfilling that is gonna end up being...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Exactly. I feel like that was definitely the Scooby-doo moment where we unveiled the mask only to find a troll.

In any job anywhere, organization and cleanliness is actually a part of your job description. Even if you've got an office job, you think your boss is going to keep you around if you keep leaving food out and not cleaning up after yourself in the breakroom? It's an expectation that you're not going to be a lazy asshole, making it a part of your job description. And in FFXIV, healer DPS actually is stated as being a part of your job description multiple times in various parts of the game: The Hall of the Novice, Solo Instances where I'd love to see someone exclusively heal through any of those and let the NPCs kill everything, not to mention the entirety of the CNJ class quests which have outlined the structure for healing day 1 of ARR.

---

Please refer to my original post where I said, very clearly, that I believe doing dps as a healer is good and right (you'll find I've maintained that sentiment is all my posts on the subject) but that no one should feel punished for deciding, for whatever given reason, to narrow their focus to just healing.

There are plenty of reasons for not doing dps: RP, bad nerves, unreliable party members trying to kill themselves constantly. In the end, the reason doesn't matter except to say that is their reason and they can play how they like. It's rarely the healer's fault if the dungeon fails due to not having enough dps. Can they help if they want? Sure! But it's also pretty w/e to most players.

Personally, I do dps as a healer (wut?! Shocking, right?) But I would never be so conceited as the badger other healers to do the same. Reeks of toxicity.

That's the honest truth that many of those on the forums fail to realize as they make note of how the forum veterans are always speaking the truth about dps vs no dps healers.

I can't help but laugh at these replies that constantly misinterpret what I say, taking a small part of what I write and running with it like a kid with scissors along the edge of a swimming pool. "Drkdays say healer dps bad!" *Raises pitchfork and torch."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Please refer to my original post where I said, very clearly, that I believe doing dps as a healer is good and right (you'll find I've maintained that sentiment is all my posts on the subject) but that no one should feel punished for deciding, for whatever given reason, to narrow their focus to just healing.

There are plenty of reasons for not doing dps: RP, bad nerves, unreliable party members trying to kill themselves constantly. In the end, the reason doesn't matter except to say that is their reason and they can play how they like. It's rarely the healer's fault if the dungeon fails due to not having enough dps. Can they help if they want? Sure! But it's also pretty w/e to most players.

Personally, I do dps as a healer (wut?! Shocking, right?) But I would never be so conceited as the badger other healers to do the same. Reeks of toxicity.

That's the honest truth that many of those on the forums fail to realize as they make note of how the forum veterans are always speaking the truth about dps vs no dps healers.

I can't help but laugh at these replies that constantly misinterpret what I say, taking a small part of what I write and running with it like a kid with scissors along the edge of a swimming pool. "Drkdays say healer dps bad!" *Raises pitchfork and torch."

---

The whole point of simplifying healer tools seemed to be so that healers would have an easier time balancing Healing and Dpsing.

At this point, considering how much they sacrificed to streamline healer DPS kits, I find a non-dpsing healer to be rather insulting. It takes little to no effort to press 1 button and upkeep 1 dot.

https://i.ibb.co/3C6kqSc/whathh.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

The whole point of simplifying healer tools seemed to be so that healers would have an easier time balancing Healing and Dpsing.

At this point, considering how much they sacrificed to streamline healer DPS kits, I find a non-dpsing healer to be rather insulting. It takes little to no effort to press 1 button and upkeep 1 dot.

https://i.ibb.co/3C6kqSc/whathh.jpg

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Not only insulting, but quite literally griefing. Not DPSing means you’re AFKing. If you are not casting, you do not deserve the rewards for that content. If you’re struggling or the party is a mess, then do what you need to do to get people up, like right now in the new alliance raid. But that’s a result of the raid being new, and this is otherwise an extremely rare occurrence.

The developers could reduce healer DPS down to a single 30 minute DoT you cast at the beginning of the encounter. The healer subforum would have a post the next day stating, "Well *I* deal damage but you can't judge someone else's playstyle! That DoT might ruin their RP! It might cost 200 mana and you don't know how much that might impact their dungeon, you dismissive elitists!"

Healer DPS is the easiest it's ever been. The entire role was dumbed down to dirt to make it easier for the Forum Princess Healers to do it. And we still have people defending it.