Don't like Blue Mage? Here is how to convince SE to change it...

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

BLU can't be used in any roulettes.

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What's the difference between going to a roulette and getting Halatali, and going into Halatali as a BLU in a premade party?

It's the same content, so why is one taboo and the other one is alright?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

What's the difference between going to a roulette and getting Halatali, and going into Halatali as a BLU in a premade party?

It's the same content, so why is one taboo and the other one is alright?

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1) roulettes are fast and pre-mades are annoying when the rewards are not worth the time. i'll do premades to climb to 100 in HoH, but i'm not doing pre-mades to get the HoH checkbox for WT.
2) leveling roulette gets me tomes for any of my jobs. doing it with BLU only benefits BLU.

i so very rarely do leveling roulettes as it is since all of my jobs are capped. i only do it to help people which is rare.

and Halatali is barely alright, i pray to get more interesting things like HW/SB leveling dungeons none of which BLU can do.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

What's the difference between going to a roulette and getting Halatali, and going into Halatali as a BLU in a premade party?

It's the same content, so why is one taboo and the other one is alright?

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One option gives a reward that is relevant to end game (tomes) or gets a job closer towards end game (xp). The other option of doing Halatali as a BLU gives xp to a dead end job that cannot be used in any relevant content. It can't be used in roulettes, normal or hard mode raids and trials, Centurio Seal hunts, Aquapolis/Uznair maps, new beast tribe quests, HoH, Eureka or the next part of Main Scenario. Those are things people can take their alts to whenever they want to accomplish something of value while they enjoy different kinds of gameplay. Alt jobs are useless if they can't be used to progress your character.

We can already go solo a bunch of open world mobs and unsync dungeons for no reward. No one does it because it's not fun or worth it, regardless of job.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

FFXIV is a MMORPG. Recycling content (without changing it) by making new ways of interacting with it is their bread and butter. Why the heck are you playing this game if you value the novelty of the content more than the experience it can provide? You are literally playing the worst game genre for what you showed as your taste.

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you're going to tell a legacy player who has never been unsubbed who has capped every job that this is the wrong genre for me? really?

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Edit:At least I didn't get you wrong. Your primary critera for ranking content definitly seems to be its age and not the experience it provides. Which doesn't make sense in a MMORPG as they do the exact opposite (ie: creating a low amount of new content (mostly through the same pipeline) while trying to keep the old one relevant).

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you read that quote and you think you didn't get me wrong? explain to me how i like leveling dungeons in HW if age is the only thing that matters?

stop making bogus assumptions. your assessment of FFXIV is also very wrong, they don't try very hard to keep old content relevant.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

One option gives a reward that is relevant to end game (tomes) or gets a job closer towards end game (xp). The other option of doing Halatali as a BLU gives xp to a dead end job that cannot be used in any relevant content. It can't be used in roulettes, normal or hard mode raids and trials, Centurio Seal hunts, Aquapolis/Uznair maps, new beast tribe quests, HoH, Eureka or the next part of Main Scenario. Those are things people can take their alts to whenever they want to accomplish something of value while they enjoy different kinds of gameplay. Alt jobs are useless if they can't be used to progress your character.
Except that's not what I'm asking. Why is old content bearable as a roulette, but doing it as a BLU suddenly becomes "old content? ew"? It's the same content in both cases. Why does one get a pass and the other one is taboo?
We can already go solo a bunch of open world mobs and unsync dungeons for no reward. No one does it because it's not fun or worth it, regardless of job.

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So the argument now is "It's not fun for me, therefore it surely isn't fun for others (because apparently doing it to level BLU and get skills for it isn't a valid purpose) therefore it should be changed/delete"?

you're harping on the wrong thing, BLU's problem isn't that it can be played in "old content", BLU's problem is that it CAN NOT be played in CURRENT content.

NIN, DRK, AST, MCH, SAM, RDM all could be played in Halatali during release. the problem with BLU is that you can't play it in Ivalice or the MSQ that's going to be released in the next patch.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you're harping on the wrong thing, BLU's problem isn't that it can be played in "old content", BLU's problem is that it CAN NOT be played in CURRENT content.
If people are making the argument that old content is irrelevant, yet they'll gladly run it during a roulette, that's called a double standard. If old content is bearable or enjoyable through a roulette, it will also be running it as a BLU
NIN, DRK, AST, MCH, SAM, RDM all could be played in Halatali during release. the problem with BLU is that you can't play it in Ivalice or the MSQ that's going to be released in the next patch.

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You'll be able to run it when BLU gets the cap raised to 70, so that's a non-issue. And you can run old alliance raids through PF and preformed alliances.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

If people are making the argument that old content is irrelevant, yet they'll gladly run it during a roulette, that's called a double standard. If old content is bearable or enjoyable through a roulette, it will also be running it as a BLU

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bearable is not gladly or enjoyable. it's bearable to a lot of people because it serves other purposes which BLU will not have.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You'll be able to run it when BLU gets the cap raised to 70, so that's a non-issue. And you can run old alliance raids through PF and preformed alliances.

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it's not a non-issue because by the time BLU gets the cap raised to 70, the "MSQ that's going to be released in the next patch" will need players to be Level 80 to do it.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You'll be able to run it when BLU gets the cap raised to 70, so that's a non-issue. And you can run old alliance raids through PF and preformed alliances.

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By that point, the level cap of all other jobs will be 80 or higher. They've made it fairly clear that BLU will never reach current content. Spare us any temporal-paradox semantics you might be defecating for your defense here.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

By that point, the level cap of all other jobs will be 80 or higher. They've made it fairly clear that BLU will never reach current content. Spare us any temporal-paradox semantics you might be defecating for your defense here.

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By that point, you'll have 17 jobs to run current content with. But apparently people hear BLU and suddenly all other jobs are deleted...

Also, really? Defecating semantics? Compared to using "But I always wanted to main a job I was never sure was coming to the game" as if it's a reasonable argument? Talk about temporal paradoxes.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

By that point, you'll have 17 jobs to run current content with. But apparently people hear BLU and suddenly all other jobs are deleted...

Also, really? Defecating semantics? Compared to using "But I always wanted to main a job I was never sure was coming to the game" as if it's a reasonable argument? Talk about temporal paradoxes.

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It's almost like people wanted to main a job in relevant content that can use enemy abilities. Do one of those other 17 jobs do that? No? Then that "point" is well pointless.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

By that point, you'll have 17 jobs to run current content with. But apparently people hear BLU and suddenly all other jobs are deleted...

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1. It shows intent from the devs. We don't like this direction.
2. If they suddenly erase BLM from the game, I won't pick up NIN. I'll pick up another game. People wanted to play BLU, they wanted to main BLU. In the face of that fact, the existence of other jobs is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

It's almost like people wanted to main a job in relevant content that can use enemy abilities. Do one of those other 17 jobs do that? No? Then that "point" is well pointless.

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BLU hasn't been a crucial factor on the game for the past 5 years. Was BLU promised upon launch of the game or whenever someone buys the game? Then that point is pointless.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

BLU hasn't been a crucial factor on the game for the past 5 years. Was BLU promised upon launch of the game or whenever someone buys the game? Then that point is pointless.

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With all due respect, so does your post. It barely relates to what you quoted nor does it matter in the least.
People have been asking for BLU for a long time. They did not ask BLU so it will be a glorified mini-game. That is what we ended up getting. They're allowed to voice their discontent with this.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

1. It shows intent from the devs. We don't like this direction.
2. If they suddenly erase BLM from the game, I won't pick up NIN. I'll pick up another game. People wanted to play BLU, they wanted to main BLU. In the face of that fact, the existence of other jobs is irrelevant.

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1. Playerbase hasn't always been reliable on giving feedback. Diadem 280 weapon crisis is a strong example of that.
2. Changing an existing class is a whole different matter from introducing a class in a way some people might not like. SE hasn't promised nor do they owe people BLU to people who want to main BLU in the way they'd prefer. The other classes still exist and people can still play the game with them. Acting otherwise just undermines their cause, because it seems they're arguing solely from preference or emotion, but also that BLU is a crucial part of the game when it hasn't existed for 5 years and the game is arguably fine. Also player preference doesn't mean it's alright to demean the work of the devs on the remaining classes, which is what's people seem to be implying ("once I got my BLU, screw the rest of the classes. Waste of good development time").

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

With all due respect, so does your post. It barely relates to what you quoted nor does it matter in the least.
People have been asking for BLU for a long time. They did not ask BLU so it will be a glorified mini-game. That is what we ended up getting. They're allowed to voice their discontent with this.

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Citation for it being a minigame required. Unless you're part of the dev team now.

Claiming it's a minigame just to justify invalid "but I wanted to main a class I was never promised I could main with" lol

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

("once I got my BLU, screw the rest of the classes. Waste of good development time").

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Citation required.
So far, people defending this seem to have an unhealthy amount of assuming things the devs have given basically opposite statements to, and villifying the people who aren't happy with this. :\

No, the devs never promised anything about BLU. So? "Thanks, we hate it" is still a legitimate form of feedback and the sooner they get the chance to hear it, the better, because it improves the chances of them changing it even if by a bit.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Citation for it being a minigame required.

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But it IS a minigame. It's side content that can interact with a limited amount of the main game.

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Claiming it's a minigame just to justify invalid "but I wanted to main a class I was never promised I could main with" lol

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And we've finally come to this level of debate. Good talk y'all, glad we had it.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Citation for it being a minigame required. Unless you're part of the dev team now.

Claiming it's a minigame just to justify invalid "but I wanted to main a class I was never promised I could main with" lol

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Did you even watch the livestream? It's a solo instance to "test" you. While we don't know what the incentive is to do it, it is just something you can do solo. No big difference from doing mini bingo in GS.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

2. Changing an existing class is a whole different matter from introducing a class in a way some people might not like. SE hasn't promised nor do they owe people BLU to people who want to main BLU in the way they'd prefer. The other classes still exist and people can still play the game with them. Acting otherwise just undermines their cause, because it seems they're arguing solely from preference or emotion, but also that BLU is a crucial part of the game when it hasn't existed for 5 years and the game is arguably fine. Also player preference doesn't mean it's alright to demean the work of the devs on the remaining classes, which is what's people seem to be implying ("once I got my BLU, screw the rest of the classes. Waste of good development time").

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You're going to a costume party this week. You're hoping that this store has the costume you want in stock then you find out that it does. You get really excited but then find out that the host of the party has a problem with your costume for silly reasons. You can still go to the party and have fun in another costume but you probably would have enjoyed yourself more if you were allowed to go in the costume you wanted.

I've seen no one say that they want to main blue AND then drop all other jobs. We can like the other jobs still and have them as our alts.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Citation required.
So far, people defending this seem to have an unhealthy amount of assuming things the devs have given basically opposite statements to, and villifying the people who aren't happy with this. :\
Do you mean that people that seem to be having an unhealthy obsession with BLU?
No, the devs never promised anything about BLU. So? "Thanks, we hate it" is still a legitimate form of feedback and the sooner they get the chance to hear it, the better, because it improves the chances of them changing it even if by a bit.
And you have a whole other side saying that it's fine, don't change it.


But it IS a minigame. It's side content that can interact with a limited amount of the main game.
So ARR as a whole is a minigame now?


And we've finally come to this level of debate. Good talk y'all, glad we had it.

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Glad you were there when I was told that I was "defecating semantics". Oh wait, you were busy taking sides and only pointing out "levels of debate" when it doesn't suit you.

So Lords of Verminion is endgame now?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You're going to a costume party this week. You're hoping that this store has the costume you want in stock then you find out that it does. You get really excited but then find out that the host of the party has a problem with your costume for silly reasons. You can still go to the party and have fun in another costume but you probably would have enjoyed yourself more if you were allowed to go in the costume you wanted.

I've seen no one say that they want to main blue AND then drop all other jobs. We can like the other jobs still and have them as our alts.

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Which means you can still play with BLU and "main" one of other jobs. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Which means you can still play with BLU and "main" one of other jobs. Problem solved.

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That's such a cop out response...

Why would people who WANT to main BLU have to do the content on a different class they don't wanna play?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

So Lords of Verminion is endgame now?

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Apparently every duty below 70 is a minigame now. And all the 70's when ShB comes out.

Relevancy defines minigames now.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Which means you can still play with BLU and "main" one of other jobs. Problem solved.

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No, not at all.

That poster in the other thread was right about how you "debate". I've seen positions I thought were immature and I've had mature debate with people on this topic. But you really take the asinine cake. Congrats!

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Apparently every duty below 70 is a minigame now. And all the 70's when ShB comes out.

Relevancy defines minigames now.

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Because there's no difference between an activity made to level your character up toward the endgame, and an activity that cannot help a player progress toward the endgame whatsoever.

Well, I apologize to anyone whom I might have offended or been a jerk to.
Got a bit carried away, so it's best if I stop discussing this theme altogether.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Well, I apologize to anyone whom I might have offended or been a jerk to.
Got a bit carried away, so it's best if I stop discussing this theme altogether.

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Fair enough. I've gotten overheated on the forums before too, so I know how humiliating it can feel.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Apparently every duty below 70 is a minigame now. And all the 70's when ShB comes out.

Relevancy defines minigames now.

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Always has. Does the new content interact with the surrounding, relevant content? Does it teach lessons towards the surrounding, relevant content? Does it help progress you towards the surrounding, relevant content? If not, it is something outside the game. And if the content itself, in its portions relevant at a particular time, is vastly smaller than what all is relevant at the same time for the surrounding game it is excluded from, then a "mini"-game is a rather apt description.

If they took BLM, renamed it's skills and changed the animations, along with making it not a turret, boom there is your blue mage that you want so badly.

I don't think demanding a glorified pallet swap is the best plan.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

If they took BLM, renamed it's skills and changed the animations, along with making it not a turret, boom there is your blue mage that you want so badly.

I don't think demanding a glorified pallet swap is the best plan.

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This, this is what people are crying for instead of getting something new

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you're going to tell a legacy player who has never been unsubbed who has capped every job that this is the wrong genre for me? really?



you read that quote and you think you didn't get me wrong? explain to me how i like leveling dungeons in HW if age is the only thing that matters?

stop making bogus assumptions. your assessment of FFXIV is also very wrong, they don't try very hard to keep old content relevant.

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If you don't want me to point out how stupid it is to talk so much about "old content" when you don't take into account the new experience it can provide, then don't bring it up? Because yes, caring more about the age of the content and not the interactions we can have with it is dumb in a MMORPG.
And you claiming to be a legacy player adds even more weight to my claim. You should be the one to know about how MMORPG, especially FFXIV, does recycle old content. So if you're not happy with them doing that, I have all the rights to call you on how backwards it looks since you've been playing it for so long.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

This, this is what people are crying for instead of getting something new

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Something new?

It's just a bunch of 0s and 1s in a code. There's billions over billions of them already, because everything computer is built on binary logic. Shouldn't people have grown sick of them by now?

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If you don't want me to point out how stupid it is to talk so much about "old content" when you don't take into account the new experience it can provide, then don't bring it up? Because yes, caring more about the age of the content and not the interactions we can have with it is dumb in a MMORPG.
And you claiming to be a legacy player adds even more weight to my claim. You should be the one to know about how MMORPG, especially FFXIV, does recycle old content. So if you're not happy with them doing that, I have all the rights to call you on how backwards it looks since you've been playing it for so long.

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The content itself isn't providing a new experience. The job is. Any job you haven't played before can provide a new experience, so let's not attribute this phenomena to the introduction of BLU alone.

And just because they recycle some content doesn't mean we all participate in it or accept it as anything more than a "means to an end". Yes, anybody leveling a new job is going to have to slog through old content. That's not the argument.

At the end of the day I'm not sure it matters anymore, we didn't need a 4th caster competing for a spot in raid groups or clogging up DF queues anyways. Have fun enjoying your little monster-hunting side quests.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The content itself isn't providing a new experience. The job is. Any job you haven't played before can provide a new experience, so let's not attribute this phenomena to the introduction of BLU alone.

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You cannot learn new abilities from monsters without said monsters. That's why I also used the word "interactions". While they indeed didn't change the content, BLU will not interact with it in a way we've experienced before.
So of course it's thanks to BLU. But that wasn't my point. Giving new ways of experiencing the content and providing new incentives was. And that's what Limited BLU does, on a far greater scale than "any job you haven't played before".

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

And just because they recycle some content doesn't mean we all participate in it or accept it as anything more than a "means to an end". Yes, anybody leveling a new job is going to have to slog through old content. That's not the argument.

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If you've ever did a single Roulette, you've participated in doing "old content". The only players who only experience "new content" are the one who subscribe only to do newly released content from a patch and then quit while waiting for the next patch to hit. I don't actually know how much players of this type are represented in the community, so I will not say anything about a potential number.
But I'm pretty sure you weren't talking specifically about these players. So I think I can still make that generalization by saying: if you play a MMORPG on a daily/weekly basis, most of what you do is old/recycled content. That's pretty much the nature of that genre.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

At the end of the day I'm not sure it matters anymore, we didn't need a 4th caster competing for a spot in raid groups or clogging up DF queues anyways. Have fun enjoying your little monster-hunting side quests.

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Trust me I will. I wouldn't if it was a 4th generic mage with a "Blue Mage" label slapped on it.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If you've ever did a single Roulette, you've participated in doing "old content".

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I don't. Pretty much just raid logging at this point because it's about the only interesting thing this game has left to offer. BLU doesn't change anything for me personally. There are plenty of other games to enjoy if I'm looking for a casual RNG grind or solo play. The raiding experience is what sets FFXIV apart from other games, so that's what I'm here for, and that's why I'm disappointed in the concept of Limited Jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

This, this is what people are crying for instead of getting something new

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I don't think that's much different from getting a job that is 2 parts 2 year old content one part new content that REQUIRES you to do 2 year old content, to actually be effective at it, and to top it all off is...well level 50.

So yes, I'd rather be able to do all of the new content that will be coming in Shadowbringer as a job that I love, instead of being stuck doing "new" 2 year old level 50 content which is essentially just atma farming.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

If they took BLM, renamed it's skills and changed the animations, along with making it not a turret, boom there is your blue mage that you want so badly.

I don't think demanding a glorified pallet swap is the best plan.

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They already did that though for blue mage. It will use reskinned abilities and spells but play by different rules inside of the Carnival. So don't act like we got something different for the larger game.

There have been a lot of ideas, concepts, and write ups for how blue mage could be different than the other jobs we already have. To act like there is no way to make blue mage feel different than the other jobs is incredibly disingenuous or you decided to not read the threads and posts to continue this misconception that there is no way.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

This, this is what people are crying for instead of getting something new

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Exactly, that's why RDM is just a generic caster clone of Black Ma--

What, the gameplay loop of RDM is entirely different?

That's preposterous! Any new mage added has to be a Black Mage clone!

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Exactly, that's why RDM is just a generic caster clone of Black Ma--

What, the gameplay loop of RDM is entirely different?

That's preposterous! Any new mage added has to be a Black Mage clone!

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Seriously! I dunno if people just have zero faith in the Dev team to deliver a new design, or truly think that the entirety of magic damage dealer design space has been completely explored by SMN, BLM, and RDM. Other games have far more than 3 caster playstyles and somehow manage to retain uniqueness and class identity. This isn't a reason Blue Mage can't work.