Blue Mage: Are you kidding me!?

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

We have two sets of jobs that actually can not do all the content and they aren't "fake jobs" Disciples of Hand and Land jobs.

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By this logic you could argue that a Samurai can't make a set of earrings, so SAM isn't a real job either. But that would be silly.

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

By this logic you could argue that a Samurai can't make a set of earrings, so SAM isn't a real job either. But that would be silly.

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Is it though? Disciples of war and magic cant craft, gather, or fix ishgard next expansion. There is no job that can do every piece of content. So...

I already use different jobs for different things.
MCH is purely used for PvP, and RDM is my Eureka job.
If I want to gather, I'll hop on my MIN/BOT/FSH, and if I want to collect enemy skills or play the Carnivale I'll use BLU.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Is it though? Disciples of war and magic cant craft, gather, or fix ishgard next expansion. There is no job that can do every piece of content. So...

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So no job is a real job, so we should all be thrilled with the BLU design. Makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

Oh I didn't express myself quite well. I did not say I will never touch it. I said in its current state I'm not interested, but I might be in the future, depending of course on what awaits this job. As someone said repeatedly, wait & see, and I'm gonna do that, I'll just wait longer than january and see what comes out of it after 5.0 hits

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I'm waiting and seeing how many Play Blue Mage in Jan and if not many I'll wait and see SE answer to it. If DOA then I'm forgetting about it. not that I don't want the Job but if it's DOA all I'm getting is a Job that goes no where and that's bad.

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

So no job is a real job, so we should all be thrilled with the BLU design. Makes perfect sense.

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By you're definition you are correct. A real job has to be able to be mained through all content of the game. You can take it all the way through MSQ, you can do every piece of content in the game with that one single class. That's how it comes across. Try to expand your mind and realize that there are other ways to enjoy this game aside from your personal views and ways of enjoyment. I get being upset, but demanding a fix to something you haven't touched, have no experience with, and have no actual useful feedback for because you can not accept the fact that this particular piece of content or job is not meant for your personal preference in play style is asinine. You don't have to be thrilled with it, but accept the fact that this is what you are going to get and come back after you touch it and have experience to back up your actual feedback. You are not the most important person in this game no single one of us is. They are looking at the broader community. Broader than these forums or the subreddit or any of that. They made a decision on what they feel is in the best interest of a game they have worked hard on and done with a great deal of love and care. So, rather than just outright judge it from the start. Put some effort into your argument and go experience it first.

I mean, I get the point of Blue Mage being its own separate thing like the DoH and DoL, the point is that it is a classic FF job beloved by a lot of players. If this was a new original job, that would be one thing, but this is Blue Mage. Personally, I never cared that much for the job (except for Quina from FFIX, because Quina is love), but I understand why, after asking so much for the job as a regular combat job, many people are unsatisfied with the "limited" thing. They never specifically said they wanted Blue Mage to be like the other combat jobs because, well, I don't think many people thought that, when we got it, it wouldn't be like the others.

I mean, if they gave us Samurai, one of my favorite FF jobs, and I couldn't use it for the main content, I wouldn't like it either, even if I didn't know anything else about how it was going to be implemented, so I can understand where people are coming from. In the end, if SE wanted to try this new limited job thing, maybe they should have introduced it with a less known job first to test the waters (maybe Puppeteer would have worked better).

That being said, I'm curious to see how Blue Mage will work. If they make it its own thing, that content better be well connected with the rest. That's the thing with DoL and DoH, they complement each other and the DoW and DoM classes, with DoL, DoW and DoM collecting materials either by gathering or fighting, and DoH crafting gear and consumables for these other classes which they then can use to perform better in their tasks.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

By you're definition you are correct. A real job has to be able to be mained through all content of the game. You can take it all the way through MSQ, you can do every piece of content in the game with that one single class. That's how it comes across. Try to expand your mind and realize that there are other ways to enjoy this game aside from your personal views and ways of enjoyment. I get being upset, but demanding a fix to something you haven't touched, have no experience with, and have no actual useful feedback for because you can not accept the fact that this particular piece of content or job is not meant for your personal preference in play style is asinine. You don't have to be thrilled with it, but accept the fact that this is what you are going to get and come back after you touch it and have experience to back up your actual feedback. You are not the most important person in this game no single one of us is. They are looking at the broader community. Broader than these forums or the subreddit or any of that. They made a decision on what they feel is in the best interest of a game they have worked hard on and done with a great deal of love and care. So, rather than just outright judge it from the start. Put some effort into your argument and go experience it first.

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Well, I hope that the broad majority finds a lot of good, long-lasting content from this. I'd hate to see it flop and get abandoned, especially considering Square often waits until the worst possible outcome to occur before they budge on any of their content.

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

I mean, I get the point of Blue Mage being its own separate thing like the DoH and DoL, the point is that it is a classic FF job beloved by a lot of players.

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My vision of it was that as FFXIV grew on its on, it just closed doors to some FF legacy content, while opening others.

Blue mage generally revolves on these aspects (mostly based on FF5 FF6 and FF9, those I know better) :
Elemental weakness and resistance (FFXIV does not use that system)
Enemy types (barely applicable to FFXIV outside of Eureka and world areas where there is little to no content)
Versatility (not happening in the Tank, Healer, and DPS structure)
Debuffs (you cannot Bad Breath or Doom a raid boss, most endgame content is immune to that)
Level X Something (not really happening either)
But all that could work on... trash mobs in the opens world. It would be a traditional Blue Mage, indeed.

Of course we could have expected a stand alone job, based on Blue Mage general idea, concept and heritage. But it would only have a Blue Mage name, and that's pretty much it, everything else would be pure creation to fit FFXIV systems and meta, with mob abilities flavoured actions. That's up to each players appreciation.
For me as long as we keep getting good DoW/M jobs and decent identity / rotation for each of these, then I'm fine with Limited Jobs as side content. They could just have stayed on their original position of "Blue Mage is too complex to implement in FFXIV".

My only agreement to the overall forum beef is the level 50 limit, as we don't know when Blue Mage will reach (if it actually ever happens!) the ongoing level cap. But I'm happy on principle that it's a form of new content. Maybe I will not like it, but I don't see the point of shouting horror and rage at this point. Especially when most people speak as if the devs must comply to all their wished because they pay to play the game. That's not how the world works.

Chill and enjoy please :)

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Of course we could have expected a stand alone job, based on Blue Mage general idea, concept and heritage. But it would only have a Blue Mage name, and that's pretty much it, everything else would be pure creation to fit FFXIV systems and meta, with mob abilities flavoured actions. That's up to each players appreciation.

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I think the way to make it feel like Blue Mage is just a matter of creativity on the developers part. And for me, being a Blue Mage only means a mage using enemy abilities, with these abilities having now become more a list of "traditional" spells. Just like Black Mage has Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, regardless of how they are implemented in each game, or how White Mage has Cure, Esuna and Raise, Blue Mage usually has Goblin Punch, Matra Magic, 1000 Needles, Aqua Breath and others, regardless of how they are implemented. To me at least, as long as the job has access to these spells (and in the lore at least it is said that these spells come from mimicking monsters, which could be done just in Job Quests easily and would allow for differences between the Blue Mage spells and the enemy skills with the same name), it would feel like a real Blue Mage. I understand it is not so to many people, which is why this whole conversation is happening.

Bad Breath could just be a DoT and a vulnerability debuff (and maybe inflict Stun on mobs). It would feel like Bad Breath to me.
Death could be just a damage dealer for bosses, with a chance of killing smaller mobs if anything. That's how it worked in FFXIII, so it wouldn't be something that new.
Then you have Aqua Breath, Goblin Punch, Matra Magic, Flamethrower, Acid, which could be normal damage spells, with Mighty Guard, White Wind (as a Cure or Vercure equivalent), Angel Whisper (as a Raise equivalent), Frog Song (as a Sleep equivalent) being support spells, giving the job a bit of a support role like Bard.

The LV? spells could be part of the job mechanic, related to some Blue Magic gauge or something, starting with LV2 Old, LV3 Defless, LV4 Holy and LV5 Death as a high damage move, for example, if they had to be included at all. I think FFXI didn't even have the LV? spells.

Would this feel too different from the identity of Blue Mage and what these spells usually do? I don't think it would, not more than what other jobs have anyway. But then again I was never that passionate about Blue Mage, so I also understand that some people wouldn't be satisfied with just this.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Well, I hope that the broad majority finds a lot of good, long-lasting content from this. I'd hate to see it flop and get abandoned, especially considering Square often waits until the worst possible outcome to occur before they budge on any of their content.

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I actually hope it flops beyond miserably. They need to learn. This is not a good idea in any way, despite what some of these people are trying to spin. Maybe if it flops they will remove it and do it right, or not ruin beast master/tamer, puppet master, or any other jobs they were thinking of implementing this way.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That is the entire crux of why this thread exists. In the content that some people find the most fun, Blue isn't allowed in. At all. No other Job has been told no at the point of entry.

That this doesn't bother more of you is near incomprehensible.

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I wish I could like this comment more.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

I wish I could like this comment more.

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I feel the same way.

Get ready its almost time to see wat blue mage is going to be like i took time to look into blue mage but will be quiet abt wat i know till release day all i'm going to do is this ; ;

I'm ready to piss off everyone by Skipping 4.5 Story and going straight to Blue mage, who with me? plus we have until Late March for Part 2 and tons of games coming out for Jan. Kingdom Hearts III being one.

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Originally Posted by Huntrss

I'm ready to piss off everyone by Skipping 4.5 Story and going straight to Blue mage, who with me? plus we have until Late March for Part 2 and tons of games coming out for Jan. Kingdom Hearts III being one.

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They should have put this version of BLU into KH3 instead of FF14. It would work waaay better over there.

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

They should have put this version of BLU into KH3 instead of FF14. It would work waaay better over there.

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They would of had to Delay KH3 more to put it in and it has been to long already for KH3.

All i will say is blue mage will be fun but there's something else everyone going to be upset abt but i hve to be quiet are i'll be banned from my ps4 lol

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I already use different jobs for different things.
MCH is purely used for PvP, and RDM is my Eureka job.
If I want to gather, I'll hop on my MIN/BOT/FSH, and if I want to collect enemy skills or play the Carnivale I'll use BLU.

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but that is your choice to have certain jobs for certain things
blue doesn't get that
there is no choice with Blu its strictly what it is.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

but that is your choice to have certain jobs for certain things
blue doesn't get that
there is no choice with Blu its strictly what it is.

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Every job does its job, none of them get a choice.
Gatherers gather, tanks tank, healers heal, DPS DPS, and blue mage does all of it to some extent.

I don't get it. Like, I really don't get why this is so hard to understand.
Nobody's angry about Blue Mage being added to the game. Nobody's being angry about Blue Mage actually having to learn skills from enemies. Nobody's angry about the Blue Carnival being added to the game.

We're angry about Limited Jobs. They shouldn't exist. Why can't we have both a fully functional job AND the BLU learning experience/Blue Carnival? Why does it have to be one way or the other?

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Originally Posted by Skos

I don't get it. Like, I really don't get why this is so hard to understand.
Nobody's angry about Blue Mage being added to the game. Nobody's being angry about Blue Mage actually having to learn skills from enemies. Nobody's angry about the Blue Carnival being added to the game.

We're angry about Limited Jobs. They shouldn't exist. Why can't we have both a fully functional job AND the BLU learning experience/Blue Carnival? Why does it have to be one way or the other?

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Because you could wind up skewing the raid tier. Sure, the tier may be done with, but it’s still there. You can’t just insert new job X without considering how it’ll effect the rest of its counterparts. If the job becomes too strong, we’ll be seeing BLU instead of SMN, and Casters have it hard as is with SMN doing decent damage and being mobile.

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Originally Posted by Skos

I don't get it. Like, I really don't get why this is so hard to understand.
Nobody's angry about Blue Mage being added to the game. Nobody's being angry about Blue Mage actually having to learn skills from enemies. Nobody's angry about the Blue Carnival being added to the game.

We're angry about Limited Jobs. They shouldn't exist. Why can't we have both a fully functional job AND the BLU learning experience/Blue Carnival? Why does it have to be one way or the other?

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simply balance.

edit: if you unlock it for savage it would be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrjjuwkhygk

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Originally Posted by Neela

simply balance.

edit: if you unlock it for savage it would be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrjjuwkhygk

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By this logic we shouldn't have any jobs, because all of them can be forking broken in a single player game.

I don't think the problem that SE is having with Blue Mage is so much about the skills being OP (some could be OP even for solo), as much as it is about having the collectability aspect in Blue Mage's skills (and the fact that some Blue Mages could be kicked from duty if they didn't have certain skills). Not saying the skills being OP couldn't be an issue, but that's something that is way easier to fix and adjust, in my opinion.

while i think having a beta test period to make sure none of the abilities break the game when you hand them to random players doing things randomly is a great idea (and thank you devs if thats the case), if i truly wanted to i could take a full job from 1 to 70 and never do any of the class quests. does this mean that all base classes should be barred from all group content (even stasha) until they have their job stone equipped and all job quests done? no, ive seen a puggalist in dun before and they did mechanics flawlessly and didnt die, and nobody tried to kick them because they werent monk (it was actually kind of hilarious to most of us)

the point is blue can totally be balanced for df, and worrying about "THE META!!!" group or that asshole tank who will dc because the bard has too much tp left after the first pull in mocihm (yes this actually happened) are not the kind of players you want to elevate to half the reason blue mage shouldnt be allowed to use df

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Because you could wind up skewing the raid tier. Sure, the tier may be done with, but it’s still there. You can’t just insert new job X without considering how it’ll effect the rest of its counterparts. If the job becomes too strong, we’ll be seeing BLU instead of SMN, and Casters have it hard as is with SMN doing decent damage and being mobile.

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Wrong there looking at ppl tht will not farm spells thy will join content with 5 spells and there lvl 50 but whn u look at tht its still stupid to say tht whn u can have a block to content like have a limit to how many spells you need to join tht mission also there looking at blue mage will not be using tht stupid rotation combo system thy have in game

i'd love if BLU could fill any of the 3 roles depending on which set of spells they equipped. The game could really make having certain spells prerequisites for queueing. Also, for sure there would be more than enough slots to fill every blue magic available out there.

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Originally Posted by Astarotha

while i think having a beta test period to make sure none of the abilities break the game when you hand them to random players doing things randomly is a great idea (and thank you devs if thats the case), if i truly wanted to i could take a full job from 1 to 70 and never do any of the class quests. does this mean that all base classes should be barred from all group content (even stasha) until they have their job stone equipped and all job quests done? no, ive seen a puggalist in dun before and they did mechanics flawlessly and didnt die, and nobody tried to kick them because they werent monk (it was actually kind of hilarious to most of us)

the point is blue can totally be balanced for df, and worrying about "THE META!!!" group or that asshole tank who will dc because the bard has too much tp left after the first pull in mocihm (yes this actually happened) are not the kind of players you want to elevate to half the reason blue mage shouldnt be allowed to use df

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Blue mage will not do anything to the game but help it what will break the game it them not understaning blue mage.. Again look at all blue mage past history thy can be balance

True but at the in of the day you will still be a dps just like all other FF games your not a tank if you Can't pull hate and keep it better yet get hate from all mobs meaning a spell or ability tht let you get all mobs too attack you

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Every job does its job, none of them get a choice.
Gatherers gather, tanks tank, healers heal, DPS DPS, and blue mage does all of it to some extent.

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I'm pretty sure he meant that it's your choice to limit those jobs to that content. SE didn't make MCH as a job for purely pvp and RDM as the only job for Eureka.

There is a middle ground that they should have gone for OR at least said they would be working towards. Blu could have been a job that fit within the trinity or been the job to finally push the limits if not break it outright. It also could have had DF options or some sort of toggle to switch to a limited state and be this OP solo job. The spell learning method they chose could have been used in both states or just been for the limited blu to fill out that content more. Then they could have just done job quests or hunting log books for the DoM/W blu to learn spells. Or kept it the same for both with like a 20% learning chance. Bit of grinding but wouldn't be unreasonable to expect certain spells to have been learned. I'm all for advance jobs with some barrier of entry.

Then there could be a blu that is balanced and an option for those that want the solo content. As for the "well it could push out of the other casters out of the meta" argument, I think that SE should be doing more to get rid of the meta. That the jobs should be choices between compelling reasons to bring X job but at the cost of not having Y. That not having Y job doesn't make clearing content more of a challenge but that you don't do it exactly the same way as a group that does have Y. The "but the meta" arguments sound like ones that are in favor of no more future jobs and that would result in an even larger backlash than limited blu.

I really wish this "either or" mentality where only one side of this debate can get what they want would stop. Not everyone fits into "I want solo content" and "I want to be able to main blu in the full game" camps but most of us that are participating in this debate do fit. Some of us are in both but feel the cost is too high for what they are doing. There definitely is a way to get this type of solo and open world content WITHOUT limited jobs. We should be united in telling SE that this is a good direction to be headed in with future content BUT this is not the correct path. That they should try another path instead of potentially having this path be blocked by the backlash and we don't get solo content such as the Carnival.

This the way i see it every class can do everything but out of all jobs RDM is top to me also SMN so whn thy keep trying to say blue mage is op i see tht as a lie from FF11 Blue mage started off slow SMN started off op also other jobs blue mage got better after u hit lvl 55+ but was still not tht op so all around it was balance so i'm going to keep saying it blue mage is not the cjob tht will break the game also as for level 5 death didn't black mage have death just put two and two together u will understand what i'm getting at oooh ya for the blue mage lvl 50 mission only Tht's just a new routtle for blue mage because blue mage Can't do duty finder so thy added tht for thm lol put two and two together

Prefacing this by saying, yes they should continue to work towards a middle ground. I want to take the time to address a few things.
1./ While some of us have experiences where players do not have all their skills or refuse to take certain cross class skills, or didn't equip a job stone and we made it through just fine, more often then not these players get kicked from groups or are belittled or scolded from my personal experience by other players. Heck I'm sure I'm not the only one that has seen a DF group boot a player for a simple mistake or lag spike at the wrong time.
2./ The suggestion that they can easily balance something and drop it into a raid tier is a... reckless suggestion at best since none of us likely fully understand how complicated that task actually is since most likely none of us have actually had to do it, and they had enough issues with it when they dropped NIN in. So.. there is that..
3./ Using FF11 as any basis for BLU not being OP in FF14 is at best woefully uninformed, at worst willfully blind to the vast differences between the two games. Just because 11 did something in their system does not mean it will work in 14's system. Just fact.

Finally, There is a consensus forming on both sides from what I can see that the problem itself isn't Blue Mage. It's the limited job system. So perhaps under the right forum space. A thread needs to be started that's sole focus is on this limited job system. I have to agree with Jon that what they are trying to do is a good thing, however this is likely not the best way to go about it. This limited system (still a horribly named system SE [Side note Community Team could you pass this fact along? Please?]) is a unique concept and an innovative idea on how to tackle requests like "More solo based content, varying kinds of jobs that don't all progress the same way, reinvigorating open world" etc etc, it's also always going to be a divisive area. I do applaud the team for trying something new and even opening the door back up to various jobs they said they would never do (I.E. Puppet master/ BST) but perhaps give some details about what you are planning with the system or just try a different approach.

You still dont get it i'm not saying switch FF14 battle style to FF11 I'm saying thy could hve kept blue mage with the sword play style gave it weapon skills etc also make the spells melee damage which i'm sure most of thm maybe melee damage but still you can believe wat you like.... Anyways its almost time for everyone to see wat blue mage is in game.. again all tht mask carnival is. is a replacement for duty roulette lol you all will see soon. So all i can see blue mage doing is spell hunting and lvling nothing more till thy add story reset

Now you all can see what i was talking its not about the damage blue mage those its abt learning spells and they not using the combo rotation just like i said but you see all of the ppl tht didn't really play blue mage trying to say things about blue mage.. Its upsetting when you know what your talking about but you have other ppl trying to break or dismiss your favorite job or class etc all together i won this thread hands down now just need to wait till January 8 to win again after farming all the spells lol also they have all spells set to be learned at lvl 1 O.O level 1 really now ok i guess ppl can join a group and go learn all strong spells at level 1 and use thm right off the back but i said strong but there not tht strong like SAM lol come on people wake up

Lol darkpaw i was already aiming at tht but you guys was dismissing everything i was saying so ...

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Originally Posted by Starcake28

Lol darkpaw i was already aiming at tht but you guys was dismissing everything i was saying so ...

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Starcake, I believe you were also fighting for a full version of blu so we would be on the same "side" but we should leave all that stuff in the past. Others are getting to a place where they are more willing to work with our side towards a middle ground and we can't let what happened in the past month get in the way of that. Just say "cool I'm happy that we can come together and give feedback we think will make the game better".

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Starcake, I believe you were also fighting for a full version of blu so we would be on the same "side" but we should leave all that stuff in the past. Others are getting to a place where they are more willing to work with our side towards a middle ground and we can't let what happened in the past month get in the way of that. Just say "cool I'm happy that we can come together and give feedback we think will make the game better".

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Yes i am and i will keep fighting for it even if i'm the late person!!! Because i'm the true number 1 blue mage but for now i'll try this cool thing... But not the change my class to a tank whn it never was a tank in any game

I could care less who "won" this thread. The fact is with the information provided it appears neither side is winning this fight. I was willing to give the dev team the benefit of the doubt for a long time figuring there had to be some actual reason to impose this "limited" system, but it's becoming more and more apparent that there is no really good valid reason for this limited system in the first place. Now granted I can't say that for 100% sure but it's becoming a lot more difficult to see the wisdom in this system, perhaps they aren't communicating their direction or vision properly or perhaps it's just what it seems, a half thought out system that much like MCH in Stormblood has not been thought out and now they're trying to recover it quickly.

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Originally Posted by Starcake28

Yes i am and i will keep fighting for it even if i'm the late person!!! Because i'm the true number 1 blue mage but for now i'll try this cool thing... But not the change my class to a tank whn it never was a tank in any game

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I'm going to agree with Darkpaw here Starcake. Many of us were saying that it didn't have to be an "us vs them" thing where one sides wins and one loses. We will not get a full blu without working with the "wait and see" people and the people that want solo content to try get to a place that most of us find acceptable. Chances are none of us will see what we want unless we get one concise message to SE in our feedback. It probably won't be ideally what any one group wants but I feel it's the right thing for us to try to do for the game.