Blue mage at patch 4.5

Yeah im alright with how they're going to go about Blue Mage, think people just are way.... overacting to things. We're still getting 2 actual new full jobs for the expac, blue mage is just an extra thing devs did because so many people kept asking for it, and from the looks of things its going to be pretty damn close to how an FF Blue Mage should work. If they were to make Blue Mage a full on job it would definitely have to lose a lot of its essence as a blue mage to stay balanced with the other jobs and work with the newest content.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Yeah im alright with how they're going to go about Blue Mage, think people just are way.... overacting to things. We're still getting 2 actual new full jobs for the expac,

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3 jobs would have been better, but that's OK. Let's settle for less when we could have had more!

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blue mage is just an extra thing devs did because so many people kept asking for it, and from the looks of things its going to be pretty damn close to how an FF Blue Mage should work.

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The ONLY identity for blue mage that's been consistent is that it learns abilities from monsters, then uses them on their own. They have never had a full carnival sidestory, and they've never been excluded from participating in the game itself. You can bring Quistis or Quina or Kimarhi with you the whole game.

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If they were to make Blue Mage a full on job it would definitely have to lose a lot of its essence as a blue mage to stay balanced with the other jobs and work with the newest content.

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It would likely take less work to do that than to do the Carnivale and balancing that. The difference is BLU in relevant content is a better long-term option than being relegated to content that'll last, at most, about 6 months (and only because people will be bored as hell with nothing new coming after 4.5.)

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Originally Posted by Powercow

3 jobs would have been better, but that's OK. Let's settle for less when we could have had more!

The ONLY identity for blue mage that's been consistent is that it learns abilities from monsters, then uses them on their own. They have never had a full carnival sidestory, and they've never been excluded from participating in the game itself. You can bring Quistis or Quina or Kimarhi with you the whole game.

It would likely take less work to do that than to do the Carnivale and balancing that. The difference is BLU in relevant content is a better long-term option than being relegated to content that'll last, at most, about 6 months (and only because people will be bored as hell with nothing new coming after 4.5.)

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There is a lot.... of work that go into making a full on job, but the main idea is "Balance." Blue Mage would pretty much have to settle down to a role, caster dps, for obvious reasons like stats, gear, required skills for roles. Would also need to progress well with other jobs as it levels, wouldnt be able to obtain all possible skills right from the start, just the usual couple skills every few levels, monsters would pretty much have to be only the open world as you cant really lock out skills in like dungeons or primal fight unless it solo instance... I mean slowly and slowly you start losing out on a real blue mage and instead start getting a regular caster with a blue mage gimmick...

We don't know we're getting 2 new full jobs. Dancer's identity is a support job and apparently they care about job identity all of a sudden, but there's no support role, so maybe they'll make it a limited job that just has buffs but can't queue into DF because there's no role slot for it.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

There is a lot.... of work that go into making a full on job, but the main idea is "Balance."

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The Carnivale will be balanced as well -- unless you're implying it won't be, in which case it sounds like preeeeeetty dumb content if you can just spam Goblin Punch all the way through. Heck having 49 friggin' skills (seriously why so many? That's ridiculous and impossible to balance around even in solo play) wasn't necessary, make it like 30-ish. You know with 49 they're going to be reeeeeally stretching on what we can get that's cool or that's going to overlap extremely hard.

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Blue Mage would pretty much have to settle down to a role, caster dps, for obvious reasons like stats, gear, required skills for roles. Would also need to progress well with other jobs as it levels, wouldnt be able to obtain all possible skills right from the start, just the usual couple skills every few levels,

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That's how they're going to work anyway. You're not going to have all 49 at level 1. You literally can't enter the Shiva fight until 50 anyway, so what's so bad about more skills becoming available to learn from monsters as you level?

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monsters would pretty much have to be only the open world as you cant really lock out skills in like dungeons or primal fight unless it solo instance... I mean slowly and slowly you start losing out on a real blue mage and instead start getting a regular caster with a blue mage gimmick...

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It's quite likely that yes, you wouldn't be able to use the current expansion's boss's abilities. Even if BLU was out now, they most likely couldn't use Ukehi from Susano or Byakko's roar or Omega's Delta Attack... but you know what? Under the current system they can't do these anyway because they literally can't go into that content. Maybe when Shadowbringers comes out and the level cap is raised, BLU could go back and learn those new skills (plus some others, plus some from Shadowbringer's open world) as their 71-80 skills. Then yeah, at 80 no more new skills until the expansion launches unless SE decides to actually break the mold and add some mid-expansion. Heck that wouldn't even be the first time a job has received a new ability in a patch.

Edit - And yeah, I know I said above more is better, but 3 jobs is better for the longevity of the game than 49 skills (and only by level 50!) and is going to be easier to balance. Unless the point of BLU is to be unbalanced, which is really, really dumb.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

3 jobs would have been better, but that's OK. Let's settle for less when we could have had more!

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The BLU they introduced doesn't need anyway near the same amount of balance regular jobs do. It uses already existing animations/skills. Being limited to Lv.50 drastically reduce the concerns about how this job would play in up-to-date content. Therefore, the amount of work needed to make BLU as it is now is very likely much less than trying to shoehorn it into the usual mould. This means that there's absolutly no evidence to say that we could've had BLU as a third "regular job" if it wasn't made the way it is today. Besides, implying that getting only 2 jobs instead of 3 is "getting less" is completly putting aside all the content provided for BLU. We are not getting less content. We are getting different content.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

The ONLY identity for blue mage that's been consistent is that it learns abilities from monsters, then uses them on their own. They have never had a full carnival sidestory, and they've never been excluded from participating in the game itself. You can bring Quistis or Quina or Kimarhi with you the whole game.

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That is an incomplete description of what a Blue Mage is about, and doesn't take into account all of the very weird and situational skills they could use.
Aqua Breath is useful on enemies weak to water. That's why you learned that skill, and why you'd choose to use it. Making it a skill that "deals magic damage" -like every other magic spell in this game ultimatly is (Aka. "Fire" doesn't deal "Fire" damage)- would completly defeat the point of the BLU having an arsenal of situational skills that you have to use correctly.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

It would likely take less work to do that than to do the Carnivale and balancing that. The difference is BLU in relevant content is a better long-term option than being relegated to content that'll last, at most, about 6 months (and only because people will be bored as hell with nothing new coming after 4.5.)

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See the first paragraph regarding "balance".
As for the content limited in time, FFXIV is absolutly full of it. There's a metric ton of content that people aren't doing today, but that was fun to do when it came out. Besides, they said that they would increase BLU level cap with time, meaning that new content would be regularly added for it. Saying "it'll only last 6 month" out of the blue without any argument/evidence to prove that claim holds no ground.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Aqua Breath is useful on enemies weak to water. That's why you learned that skill, and why you'd choose to use it. Making it a skill that "deals magic damage" -like every other magic spell in this game ultimatly is (Aka. "Fire" doesn't deal "Fire" damage)- would completly defeat the point of the BLU having an arsenal of situational skills that you have to use correctly.

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That's elemental resistance, and it is not specific to Blue Mage, I would equate it more with Black Mage than anything. SE already decided they didn't care about elemental weakness in this game when they gave us a neutered pyromanic Black Mage. In past FFs casting fire on a fire mob would do less damage or even heal it, but not here. The devs are the ones that threw that system out and designed a game where it doesn't matter. You can't suddenly pretend it's important for Blue Mage only. If they aren't redesigning the entire game to have elemental weaknesses and give Black Mage the full elemental wheel, then that argument is going to fall on deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

That's elemental resistance, and it is not specific to Blue Mage, I would equate it more with Black Mage than anything. SE already decided they didn't care about elemental weakness in this game when they gave us a neutered pyromanic Black Mage. In past FFs casting fire on a fire mob would do less damage or even heal it, but not here. The devs are the ones that threw that system out and designed a game where it doesn't matter. You can't suddenly pretend it's important for Blue Mage only. If they aren't redesigning the entire game to have elemental weaknesses and give Black Mage the full elemental wheel, then that argument is going to fall on deaf ears.

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You are explaining what I already know, and are completly missing my point.
Besides, as you said, we already have Black Mage that have been stripped from its iconic use of elemental weaknesses. We don't need another one.

Which is why they decided to try and keep the iconic aspect of BLU. But that required it being put aside from the current roster, and it getting dedicated content, because FFXIV doesn't work with elemental weaknesses and all that stuff BLU is mostly about. Just take a look at a wiki list of all Blue Magic that was used in the franchise. Now try to count the number of skills which simply wouldn't work in FFXIV without heavy tweeking.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

So? Look at a wiki list of Black Magic that was used in the franchise. They tweeked plenty. Blue Mage shouldn't get special treatment just so it can end up being a less useable job.

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Why not? Who are you to say that every playable job ever should be heavily tweeked to fit the mould? Who are you to kill the creativity of breaking rules and getting outside the usual mainstream content?
We've been asking for new and original content that breaks the usual formula for ages. That's exactly what we got. And now you want to get back into strictly respecting the formula? People never know what they want it seems.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Wha- no, no it's not. Blue Mage is literally, and only ever has been, about learning skills from enemies and then using it back at them.

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Oh yeah, let me use Aqua Breath on a Water resistant enemy. Let me use Bad Breath on an enemy immune to status effects. Let me use Death Lv.5 on a level 42 enemy. Let my use Goblin Punch on an enemy not sharing my level. Let me use Magic hammer on an enemy without MP to steal. Let me use Level.? Holy on enemies not having a level which is a multiple of the last digit of how much gil I have...
Blue magic was always about weird situational skills that are very much conditionnal and should be used only in the right situation. All that while managing your MP in order not to burn it by only using the most powerful stuff you have.
Blue magic isn't about having a set rotation and a fixed number of skills. That'd be for a Boring Mage, not a Blue Mage. And we have a bunch of Boring Mages already.

That is what you do with blue magic. "Learning skills from monsters" is only a part of that gameplay. Ignoring the rest is a great disservice to that iconic job with its very special gameplay.
Maybe you would be okay with a butchered Blue Mage and Blue Magic. I wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Which is why they decided to try and keep the iconic aspect of BLU. But that required it being put aside from the current roster, and it getting dedicated content, because FFXIV doesn't work with elemental weaknesses and all that stuff BLU is mostly about.

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It is not iconic to BLU, it is iconic to the Final Fantasy series as a whole, and the developers of this game already chose to ignore it. For them to act like now it has to be there for BLU is spitting in the face of people who wanted it for BLM.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Just take a look at a wiki list of all Blue Magic that was used in the franchise. Now try to count the number of skills which simply wouldn't work in FFXIV without heavy tweeking.

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So? Look at a wiki list of Black Magic that was used in the franchise. They tweeked plenty. Blue Mage shouldn't get special treatment just so it can end up being a less useable job.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Which is why they decided to try and keep the iconic aspect of BLU. But that required it being put aside from the current roster, and it getting dedicated content, because FFXIV doesn't work with elemental weaknesses and all that stuff BLU is mostly about.

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Wha- no, no it's not. Blue Mage is literally, and only ever has been, about learning skills from enemies and then using it back at them. Every time Blue Mage has shown up, it has been slightly different (or radically, in the case of Enemy Skill materia) than its previous incarnations. Sometimes it requires using an item to learn the skill, sometimes you need to kill the enemy, sometimes you need to eat the enemy, sometimes you need to be hit with the skill... but the one constant is that you learn skills, then use them. FFXIV is going with the see-it-kill-it approach, which is fine, that fits the mold.

But FFXIV Blue Mage isn't even really Blue Mage. Were BLUs ever super duper flexible godtier OP characters that couldn't be used in the rest of the game? No. They never have been. (Yes in 11 they were pretty damn strong, but they weren't so strong the devs barred them from current content.) This is a change in design from what Blue Mage has been to something radically different for FFXIV. If anything this version of Blue Mage has *less* in common with every other version outside of that one time the job became an item.

I had a long response typed-out for how this whole BLU situation feels to me, but it's kind of hard to articulate. So I just finished deleting that essay (for another thread, some other time perhaps...) and I'll do my best at just consolidating my opinions with much shorter, to-the-point statements.

I am somewhere between disappointed and dull surprise with how they are handling Bluemage. Disappointed, because (thus far) nobody can ever say "I'm a BLU main" or play it in relevant content with randoms due to restrictions of the status of being "limited." Dull surprise, because while actually letting BLUs collect spells outside of job quests, of course they'd turn around with a big "BUT-" because them leaving it at that would actually require extra work and balancing. One interview with Yoshi-P a while back even foreshadowed this because he didn't know how to make such a thing with XIV's limitations.

I think restrictions they had to impose on their chosen "vision" of BLU highlights the underlying issues they designed themselves into regarding their battle content. The fact that they think BLU as they designed it would have access to too many "overpowered" spells that they're only willing to allow it in largely irrelevant content makes the whole job sound like a glorified god-mode undersized party mode for the duty-finder. It was their choice to give BLUs access to those potentially problematic spells/abilities in the first place.

I appreciate them having BLU be able to go and collect their spells on their own, but if that was the only way they felt comfortable designing the job's identity after turning BRD into an archer-archetype with limited buffs with flashy music-based flair and SMN being delegated to only 3 unique summons (with no new egis of the other iconic summons- even aesthetically, from ARR launch all the way to the coming-end of this 2nd expansion) but suddenly a strong affinity to Bahamut (and only Bahamut)... then as of now I dunno what more to say about them. It doesn't feel like a new job, it's a sideshow that apparently is designed with game-breaking spells and the freedom the job is designed with permits too many possibilities for bad/new players to apparently ruin group content and they don't want to take steps to make stopgates to moderate/prevent it (as of now).

I am not sure how take in that limited job. It is something new but at the same time I am not sure if that is good or not.

Will there be enough content for Blue Mages to do so that people are not just done with it once they reach lvl50 or the next max level? Because if not then I question why we even needed it. At the same time I fear that this gives them more reason to push out more limited jobs as soon as its more complicated to implement them. If we had great solo overworld content this wouldnt be so bad but there is nothing much to do, so I kinda wonder how long people will truly play it.

I am not sure why they didnt give them certain base skills from quests which then could have been used in dungeons and other instanced content, while you can learn more skills next to that, which would be locked out of this content. This way people can still feel powerful in the overworld but also can take part in instances.

I posted this in another thread but I feel like it summed up my feelings perfectly:
Imagine for a moment that bard did not exist. Then in 4.5 bard was released as a limited job, it can only use the perform action and by learning different songs in perform you apply various buffs and damage, because for some arbitrary reason bard is special and must stay true to its source material, but this is hard to balance because people might be bad at music, so its locked out the df and locked at level 50. If bard was your favourite class this would be a kick in the teeth, why couldnt bard say, use a bow, or have songs set to abilities to make it fit in with the other classes, why does bard need to be this red headed step child. This what BLU fans are currently feeling.

I'll refrain commenting on the limited job aspect. I can see the pros and cons, and I love using blue magic and equivalents.

I will, however, say that I love that they went with the mask and cape design.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I posted this in another thread but I feel like it summed up my feelings perfectly:
Imagine for a moment that bard did not exist. Then in 4.5 bard was released as a limited job, it can only use the perform action and by learning different songs in perform you apply various buffs and damage, because for some arbitrary reason bard is special and must stay true to its source material, but this is hard to balance because people might be bad at music, so its locked out the df and locked at level 50. If bard was your favourite class this would be a kick in the teeth, why couldnt bard say, use a bow, or have songs set to abilities to make it fit in with the other classes, why does bard need to be this red headed step child. This what BLU fans are currently feeling.

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That'd actually be kinda a neat thing to use Perform for, actually.

The game is just a game - it is a means of fantasy and escapism, and some of us have put many, many hours into it.

But for a real world analogy....

If I treated my Job as a Limited Job, it would be "UNM" ...

Unemployed.

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Originally Posted by JBee

The game is just a game - it is a means of fantasy and escapism, and some of us have put many, many hours into it.

But for a real world analogy....

If I treated my Job as a Limited Job, it would be "UNM" ...

Unemployed.

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It'd be a hobby.

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Originally Posted by JBee

If I treated my Job as a Limited Job, it would be "UNM" ...

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No. It would be a low-wage job with no prospects for a raise or promotion. Aka...what many people in the world can relate to.

I worded my post poorly, that's on me.

What I meant was... if I only did a limited number of my job duties in my current position, I should expect to be replaced. Not the best analogy, granted.

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Originally Posted by JBee

I worded my post poorly, that's on me.

What I meant was... if I only did a limited number of my job duties in my current position, I should expect to be replaced. Not the best analogy, granted.

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That still doesn't make any sense to how BLU is planned?

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

That still doesn't make any sense to how BLU is planned?

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One of Yoshida excuses for Blue being limited was that people would kick BLUs from dungeons if they didn't have the right spells, which would happen for any job, and will actually still happen with BLU in party finders since people are absolutely going to find the best 24 abilities that should be used.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

One of Yoshida excuses for Blue being limited was that people would kick BLUs from dungeons if they didn't have the right spells, which would happen for any job, and will actually still happen with BLU in party finders since people are absolutely going to find the best 24 abilities that should be used.

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It does apply to all jobs, yes. But do you honestly not see a difference between a class where there are maybe 30% of their abilities locked behind (and some of them suck or are situational) and a class that never, ever, will get even the most fundamental amount of abilities without the person going far out of their way to obtain them?! And even THEN many of them are likely to still be situational?!

Blue Mage is in absolutely way worse position in terms of player toxicity than any other class. The question here is not whether that's true but whether it can be fixed.

It can, but that requires time and testing. And honestly...having players do the testing here is far better for all people involved. Players because that way any change can happen far earlier, developers because it's going to be a lot more certain result, cheaper with less development time spent on it in place of stuff that players cannot test properly.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

It does apply to all jobs, yes. But do you honestly not see a difference between a class where there are maybe 30% of their abilities locked behind (and some of them suck or are situational) and a class that never, ever, will get even the most fundamental amount of abilities without the person going far out of their way to obtain them?! And even THEN many of them are likely to still be situational?!

Blue Mage is in absolutely way worse position in terms of player toxicity than any other class. The question here is not whether that's true but whether it can be fixed.

It can, but that requires time and testing. And honestly...having players do the testing here is far better for all people involved. Players because that way any change can happen far earlier, developers because it's going to be a lot more certain result, cheaper with less development time spent on it in place of stuff that players cannot test properly.

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Here are quick easy fixes to the issues you raise

1) just make it so monsters abilities aren't the only spells of the class (like in FFVIII with quistis),
2) just make it so you must have X spells learned to join a duty finder group, a damage dealing spell will be a damage dealing spell, no matter what it is, with how the battle system is designed, what will change will mostly be the skin's spell,
3) just make it so you need a level X0 job before you can play blu, so you need to have a basic grasp of the game before you can play blu (blu would then be thought as an "advanced" job).

Also I don't get this mentality where the game should be designed around players who don't want to progress. In a mmorpg, a bad player will be a bad player no matter the job/system. Also, LoL is an incredibly complex game, it doesn't prevent it to be one of the most played game of the decade.

Hell, even pokemon is a game where you need to pick and choose which abilities you want to use, yet it is typically played by children. Please do not think people are idiots.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

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Don't need to go that far. So many dungeon complete with Black mage full ice even at lv 70, so many BRD that don't even know they have songs and never used them all the way to the final chest, so many healer that barely use anything but "regen", so many tank that never heard about their defensive buff, so many RDM spamming 'impact' all day long, so many player barely aware of what the big ass orange circle under their feet is, so many people month after release can't make the difference between left and right in Alphascape v11.0 and Yoshida want to make me believe people will care about the spell BLU will use or not in mid-tier content ?

Guess again Naoki-kun, you missed by a long shot.

I skimmed the entire thread, and was shocked no one brought up this point:

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Originally Posted by YoshiP, paraphrased

Imagine you go to fight Omega M/F. The battle starts, BLU casts Level 5 Death, and it's all over! Obviously, we can't NOT give BLU Level 5 Death, or nerf it against bosses, or the job wouldn't feel like BLU! So, overworld only for you guys!

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So, BLU is going to get Level 5 Death, it won't be nerfed, and can be used in the Overworld? That's gonna make Hunts mighty interesting... XD

Having said that, here's my thoughts on Blue Mage as revealed at Fan Festa...

I'm pretty deeply disappointed. I'll play their Blue Mage minigame, and likely enjoy it, but it's frustrating to realize that the devs and YoshiP lack the imagination to make Blue Mage a real, viable job in this game. Folks in this thread have pointed out that Blue Mage as we received it corresponds neatly with comments YoshiP made on the job four years ago, and why HE felt it could not be made to fit in a MMO. The truth is, fans of BLU have been hoping that these past four years would have been time enough for YoshiP to pull his head out of his ass and realize that his vision for BLU is not the only possibility!

YoshiP said himself that everywhere he goes, folks ask for Blue Mage. When is it coming? This alone makes it clear that Blue Mage is a highly desired job. Rather than throwing something together just to make them shut up, he should have found a way to make it WORK. NO player who asked for Blue Mage wanted what we were given. None. Some may be okay with it, and some might actually be enthusiastic about it - but when they asked, they wanted a job that could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with other jobs in this game. They wanted Blue Mage to be their main job, with which they tackled all of the game's content that interested them.

When a job's concept does not perfectly align with the game's design, you alter the concept to fit. This has already been done with MANY jobs in this game - SMN as a DoT specialist with only three summons, Dark Knight as a tank without and form of self-harm, Bard as an archer with only a handful of musical buffs - all of these are pretty significant departures from the jobs as we've known them in other Final Fantasy games. And yes, some players were disappointed with these changes. Blue Mage should have been no different; there are many, many ways it could fit into the game while still being recognizable as a Blue Mage - and yes, the changes needed would have alienated SOME fans of Blue Mage with very particular ideas about the job. For the majority, however, they would understand why the changes were necessary, and accept them.

The concern that parties wouldn't accept BLUs without certain spells is a crock as well. It's no different than parties refusing jobs that haven't learned all of their job abilities. Do you want a Warrior in your party who does not have Deliverance? A Black Mage who does not know Fire IV? A Scholar whose only curative abilities are Physick and Adloquiem? All of these are possible by avoiding job quests, and no content bars a player who has not completed them! Blue Mages who do not learn important spells will be kicked from parties, it is true - and that is PERFECTLY FINE. Just make those important Blue Magic spells as easy to acquire as other jobs' abilities are, and no one can reasonably complain.

Blue Mage doesn't need to have a bazillion spells from which they "equip" a certain number. The only time in Final Fantasy that BLU has been done this way was in FFXI. Therefore, the argument that it would be too difficult to balance so many spells is moot; as long as the number of Blue Mage spells is less than or equal to the number of abilities other jobs get, they should be no more difficult to balance. The argument that some iconic Blue Magic would be useless in a lot of content (like, for example, no boss would be susceptible to Bad Breath) is also not a good argument, as many jobs have crowd control abilities in spite of the fact that, outside of a few specific mechanics, they are useless in such content (Black Mage's Sleep, for instance, or the Role Action Foot Graze).

There have been many discussion threads over the years talking about Blue Mage and how it could work. A lot of good ideas were put forth, as well as a lot of terrible ideas - but good or bad, it's not hard to see that there's more than one way to look at Blue Mage. It sucks that YoshiP was never able to see that.

Long-winded rant aside, I do have to say that I LOVE the look they chose for Blue Mage. It's very reminiscent of the Final Fantasy V look for the job, and I love the "masquerade" vibe. The use of a cane as a weapon is a classy touch, as well.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

So, BLU is going to get Level 5 Death, it won't be nerfed, and can be used in the Overworld? That's gonna make Hunts mighty interesting... XD

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Shh! Don't give away that man, come on! I was looking forward to trolling the entire server when an S rank or Ixion spawned and I just 1shot him instantly.

Oh man, the Shadowbringers open world boss is going to be such a ****show with everyone having the ability to swap to BLU and just insta-kill it.

Clearly they can't flag those to be immune, it'd completely destroy the entire image of Blue Mage if they excluded that spell or made anything immune to its effects!

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Shh! Don't give away that man, come on! I was looking forward to trolling the entire server when an S rank or Ixion spawned and I just 1shot him instantly.

Oh man, the Shadowbringers open world boss is going to be such a ****show with everyone having the ability to swap to BLU and just insta-kill it.

Clearly they can't flag those to be immune, it'd completely destroy the entire image of Blue Mage if they excluded that spell or made anything immune to its effects!

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Death actualy exist in Pyros/logos, its succes rate change depending of the target life. Spamming death on a full life target will just consume all your MP for no result.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Death actualy exist in Pyros/logos, its succes rate change depending of the target life. Spamming death on a full life target will just consume all your MP for no result.

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Could also make it like Infuriate, have to be in combat first, just so there's not even the chance of a boss dying before people can actually try to attack it.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Could also make it like Infuriate, have to be in combat first, just so there's not even the chance of a boss dying before people can actually try to attack it.

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Have a friend tag it, or send in a chocobo first, BAM! Easy peasy.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Death actualy exist in Pyros/logos, its succes rate change depending of the target life. Spamming death on a full life target will just consume all your MP for no result.

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Ah but they said in the LL that they're worried you'd go into Omega and 1shot it, thereby nullifying the fight. If that's a valid reason to keep BLU out of endgame content, then they'd have to be awfully inconsistent to not have it function like that in the open world. Clearly the BLU class identity is all about being the most OP thing in the universe and there's no way at all they could go about not letting BLU break the game. Not. A. One.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Have a friend tag it, or send in a chocobo first, BAM! Easy peasy.

Ah but they said in the LL that they're worried you'd go into Omega and 1shot it, thereby nullifying the fight. If that's a valid reason to keep BLU out of endgame content, then they'd have to be awfully inconsistent to not have it function like that in the open world. Clearly the BLU class identity is all about being the most OP thing in the universe and there's no way at all they could go about not letting BLU break the game. Not. A. One.

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Well, they said Eureka won't be like Diadem too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Have a friend tag it, or send in a chocobo first, BAM! Easy peasy.

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Friend tagging it wouldn't put YOU into combat and, while it's been forever since I've bothered using my Chocobo, I'm pretty sure you can't just send your bird in without doing something yourself first.
It wouldn't buy a lot of time, true, but people already pounce the instant it even looks like someone's pulling so that's all that'd really be needed.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Here are quick easy fixes to the issues you raise

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I don't need em. I wrote out thrice or so how it could be fixed with minimum work, without actually changing Blue Mage from what it is. I won't bother writing it down again.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

1) just make it so monsters abilities aren't the only spells of the class (like in FFVIII with quistis),

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Blue mages have only Blue Magic. As far as "artistic freedom" doesn't stop them from having some other skills, they will simply not be numerous enough to make a serious difference. Even if we'll assume they'll get ten of them, it's still way too many skills lacking. And if you'll add more then you may as well make another job entirely.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

2) just make it so you must have X spells learned to join a duty finder group, a damage dealing spell will be a damage dealing spell, no matter what it is, with how the battle system is designed, what will change will mostly be the skin's spell,

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If that was the case then all this stuff about limiting wouldn't even be necessary. The spells of Blue Mage will most likely contain some unusual spells. Ones that ignore resistances of boss monsters (the video did show Shiva stunned, which is impossible normally), for example. The moment you start banning individual skills, you end up with tons of work. And what's stopping players from stacking the high-cooldown, high-damage spells for a massive burst, either? With twenty skills and ~2,5sec cooldown, that's 50sec of casting massive spells one after another. By that time at least some of them will come off cooldown and the party starts again.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

3) just make it so you need a level X0 job before you can play blu, so you need to have a basic grasp of the game before you can play blu (blu would then be thought as an "advanced" job).

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It's already in there. You need lvl50 job and have finished 2.0 main story quest line.

Besides, it doesn't change anything. I've come across people leveling their alt job, with several lvl70 jobs, that didn't show basic understanding of the game or lacking respect for the time of others. I have no faith that these people would go way out of their way to get numerous skills for leveling if they think that others can carry them.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Also I don't get this mentality where the game should be designed around players who don't want to progress.

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Progress means various things. It doesn't only mean getting to the end-game content and rushing through the Raids and Savage. It means being every time you log in further in something than you were. For certain people it may mean getting a new minion, for another defeating a different NPC in Triple Triad. The purpose of a game is first and foremost to have fun, the means of doing that don't matter...unless you cause grief, that is. I don't get how cooking can be fun, or doing house chores, or eating. I do em cause I need to. There are people that relax by cooking, cleaning or eating. Should I dismiss their way of life just cause it's different than me?!

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

In a mmorpg, a bad player will be a bad player no matter the job/system.

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But every current job allows a bad player to finish any dungeon in the game...almost. So long as they are trying, that is. Blue Mage does not. If you are a bad Blue Mage player, you literally are useless, therefore you're going to be bashed more often and harder than if you came in with any other job.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Also, LoL is an incredibly complex game, it doesn't prevent it to be one of the most played game of the decade.

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That's completely out of the left field. This discussion is not about complexity of a game. Personally I abhor the dumbing down of everything that Square Enix seems to enjoy. But, again, that have nothing to do with this discussion. If every class had some sort of quirk like that, sure. I'd love that. The bad apples that don't want to learn doing a thing wouldn't be able to go past first two or three dungeons and only the average+ players would be seen in later stages of the game. But as it is, they'd only change from Blue Mage into another class and continue being detrimental to the community for the rest of the game.

Sorry, won't be continuing a subscription due to the limited factor. Will be the first to sign up if it can do current content and raiding and use random grouping though. Not much else to say other than, good luck everybody else!

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Originally Posted by kikix12

*Snip*

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It's worth pointing out that pretty much ALL of your observations about BLU depend on design decisions that do not actually need to be made.

All of BLU's abilities are Blue Magic? They don't have to be. Give them utility abilities as well, like an ability that ensures the next Blue Magic spell cast is a guaranteed critical/direct hit, or an Incite ability which forces the target (unless it's immune) to immediately use a special ability (this is useful both for learning Blue Magic, and in general by forcing a critter to waste time charging up a predictable and avoidable aoe rather than auto-attacking). There are all sorts of BLU-appropriate abilities folks could come up with, with a little imagination. Actual Blue Magic should be limited to ten to fifteen spells, with another two or three being added every time the level cap increases. There's no need to have scores of spells with only a certain number equipped at a time; only FFXI ever did that, and 80% of Blue Magic spells in that game were trash (and about half of the remainder were only good because they enabled certain job traits, like Auto-refresh).

BLUs don't have all their spells? Kick them, and deservedly so, just as you would any other job that doesn't have all their job abilities. This situation should be no more common than it would be for any other job, so long as acquiring Blue Magic spells was made no more difficult than acquiring job abilities. "Random chance to learn" can die in a fire; it wasn't fun in FFXI, and it won't be here, either. Make 'em one-and-done, and any BLU that doesn't have their spells clearly doesn't care about their job or gameplay whatsoever, and has no place in difficult content.

Some Blue Magic spells affect even scripted bosses (like stunned Shiva), and therefore will throw off endgame? Don't do that! Seriously, this is the easiest thing to address. Lots of jobs have CC abilities that are nerfed against bosses; BLU should be no different. Just as Sleep is pointless to use on Omega, so should be Bad Breath.

Honestly, it boggles the mind. There's any number of ways that BLU COULD have been added to the game as a fully-fledged job without breaking the game. YoshiP, though, was apparently stuck in this mental vision of what BLU MUST be, which was pretty much incompatible with the game, and rather than tailor his image of the job to fit the game (which is what was done for pretty much every job we DO have, and most notably changed were BRD, DRK, and SMN), he created this bizarre minigame just to make folks shut up.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's worth pointing out that pretty much ALL of your observations about BLU depend on design decisions that do not actually need to be made.

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Again, read previous posts I made on explaining how we can both have a unique, broken job and use it while balanced in Duty Finder/current content. You can try to push for crippling Blue Mages all you want, but that's just stupid when the world is not just black and white and there are many shades of gray in-between. Telling a person that knows how to "fix" the problem without mutilating the job that it is possible to mutilate it to make it work is as effective as telling a doctor that can a stomach cancer that he can just cut out the stomach and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

YoshiP, though, was apparently stuck in this mental vision of what BLU MUST be, which was pretty much incompatible with the game, and rather than tailor his image of the job to fit the game(...)

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So...what gives you the right to complain about how he did it when you are doing the same thing?! You are stuck in this mental vision that this is how Blue Mage is and that they won't even bother looking at making it playable. Then you try to "tailor" the job to fit what you want, completely ignoring the wishes of the thousands of people that will enjoy it as it is planned now, but would be "meh" at best if it was changed as you want. And it wasn't even released yet.

The developers at least tried, put work into it. They listened to the other side. You are completely ignoring everything that does not fit your agenda, disrespecting their work and by extension disrespecting other players that like it. And all you do in turn is think of the most basic ways to cripple it completely ignoring everything and everyone else. Anyone can make a crap game with crap skills and crap mechanics. But a good game, good skills and good mechanics require compromises. Instead of trying to turn a Blue Mage into Black/Red Mage V2 with a different skin, at least put in that extra effort to think of something that will not just shift the "victims" of this decision to the ones that LIKE this Blue Mage.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

disrespecting their work and by extension disrespecting other players that like it.

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Square and I are not partners. We are, in so far as I'm aware, not even friends. I pay them for a product and if there are elements of that product I do not like it is in my best interest to let the company know. That's not disrespect, that's customer feedback.

I've worked in marketing and public relations. I would MUCH rather an irate client tell me when they have a problem rather than simply taking their business elsewhere in silence. One approach lets me keep their patronage (which means their money, good PR, and word of mouth) the other just leaves me down in profits with not even the faintest hint on how to amend things.

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disrespecting their work and by extension disrespecting other players that like it

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I'm getting FFXIV 1.0 vibes so strong here, because it was typically something that could be read back then, even though the game was utter unplayable rubbish.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I skimmed the entire thread, and was shocked no one brought up this point:

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Imagine you go to fight Omega M/F. The battle starts, BLU casts Level 5 Death, and it's all over! Obviously, we can't NOT give BLU Level 5 Death, or nerf it against bosses, or the job wouldn't feel like BLU! So, overworld only for you guys!

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So, BLU is going to get Level 5 Death, it won't be nerfed, and can be used in the Overworld? That's gonna make Hunts mighty interesting... XD

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Right, because percentile chance mitigation or diminished effect tiers have never been a thing, and certainly were not used in as recently as one installment before XIV.

The devs are not new to talking out their rears in this regard. False ultimatums are practically standard at this point. Remember the "the playerbase can never be satisfied; everything is too hard or too easy"? Or the "you can't have both balance and identity"? Other MMOs have no issues finding ways to minimize or utterly circumvent the conflicts between such things. They are not mutually exclusive. Uniquely bad design and shared content is the only thing that ought to be mutually exclusive, and they'd have to out of their way to create a Death spell that poorly; it's not the default for any contextual design.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Here are quick easy fixes to the issues you raise

1) just make it so monsters abilities aren't the only spells of the class (like in FFVIII with quistis),
2) just make it so you must have X spells learned to join a duty finder group, a damage dealing spell will be a damage dealing spell, no matter what it is, with how the battle system is designed, what will change will mostly be the skin's spell,
3) just make it so you need a level X0 job before you can play blu, so you need to have a basic grasp of the game before you can play blu (blu would then be thought as an "advanced" job).

Also I don't get this mentality where the game should be designed around players who don't want to progress. In a mmorpg, a bad player will be a bad player no matter the job/system. Also, LoL is an incredibly complex game, it doesn't prevent it to be one of the most played game of the decade.

Hell, even pokemon is a game where you need to pick and choose which abilities you want to use, yet it is typically played by children. Please do not think people are idiots.

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This. Common sense restrictions alongside the tailored content promised actually puts BLU in perhaps the best spot of any job. To join matchmaking, one must not only have filled out their kit, but also have tested in solo combat, through which they cannot be carried. That itself sets a higher bar for entry than anyone else is open to. Unless each of those solo duties carry goals opposite normal dungeon running (i.e. are all about CC rather than damage burns), your average BLU will most likely have a higher average competency and lesser deviation in competency than other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Elerus

I pay them for a product and if there are elements of that product I do not like it is in my best interest to let the company know. That's not disrespect, that's customer feedback.

I've worked in marketing and public relations. I would MUCH rather an irate client tell me when they have a problem rather than simply taking their business elsewhere in silence.

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There is a difference between disrespectful criticism and a constructive one. If you worked in marketing and public relations then you should know that.

A person that is criticized may very well learn some lesson from that. But that lesson may not necessarily be the one the irked person wanted to "teach" and it comes at the expense of negativity breeding.

The fact of the matter is this. Dismissing this idea before it even hits serves no purpose. History should have taught humanity that what is "different" from initially desired needs not be inferior. It is a lesson worth learning.

Feel free to give your opinion, you and others. But "opinion", not "statements". Fact of the matter is that this is worthwhile content for some, not worthwhile for others. It is not "rubbish", not a "waste of resources" and not a "slap in the face". It is an ongoing experiment that was meant to provide players with what was asked for that is promised to be worked on to a point.

It would be made differently, there still would be tons of negative responses, at that time from a different crowd. And I'd still be, on that part, defending Square Enix for the same reason. Because the content didn't yet hit the servers, players didn't play it yet and Square Enix didn't even have a chance of doing anything with it. It's like yelling at a baker that you won't pay for a burnt bread before they even bring you one, just because you smell something burning in the background.