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Non-binary option for characters, please?
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10-16-2018, 04:17 PMF_Maximillian
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10-16-2018, 05:57 PMDerceto
How about, you go kickstart a "gender neutral" MMO, to protect tender feelings. Let me know how that goes for you.
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10-16-2018, 06:41 PMkamenkuroTechnically the decision to diagnose and classify mental disorders are on doctors and scientists. However, if someone shows the basic symptoms of a mental disorder it can be recognized by the common man. As that does help the person afflicted get help. That's why these things are public knowledge. For the most part none of this is in any way harmful. Your average person is more apathetic towards anything that doesn't immediately affect them. Even going as far as playing along even if they themselves don't adhere to that same belief. The idea that it's a harmful classification is wrong. That's like saying being labeled autistic is wrong. They have problems that doctors can help with and if they know what that problem is they can help fix it. What you're doing is denying people help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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10-16-2018, 06:52 PMFynlarQuote:
What you're doing is denying people help.
I've done nothing of the sort. Also, not all trans people want or need "help", but this whole "they're all disordered" rhetoric sure sounds like it's trying to push it on them.
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Your average person is more apathetic towards anything that doesn't immediately affect them.
This thread is proof enough of that. -
10-16-2018, 06:54 PMBillyKaplanHomosexuality and other sexual orientations were also labeled as mental illnesses and were illegal in many places. Those things change as people get over their bigotry.Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenkuro
Depends on who hears about it. Parents can even abuse their children if they're diagnosed as autistic, oftentimes under the guise of trying to help or 'cure' them.Quote:
The idea that it's a harmful classification is wrong. That's like saying being labeled autistic is wrong.
Implying trans people need medical help beyond possible gender reassignment surgery...Quote:
What you're doing is denying people help.
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10-16-2018, 07:27 PMgamepob
Considering that no one can agree on how many genders there are, I think the only "solution" would be to have options of choosing "he", "she" or "they" as form of adressing yourself. It would involve some work in rewriting all texts, but it would be safe from new gender emerging tomorrow. And even that is only for English language. I don't know how French, German or Japanese languages are structured, but in my language (Slovenian) it would not be possible, as sex is reflected in many predicates, verbs and other parts of a sentence. And that sex only has three forms.
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10-16-2018, 07:29 PMJohnSpawnVFXSo we should stop diagnosing and treating children, because their parents might try to abuse them for it. That's what you're pushing for...Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
It's it's totally the doctor's fault and not the parents, or anything.
You mean like the hormonal therapy that goes with the surgery and psychological counseling to make sure someone really wants to go through the process, not just having doubts and all necessary information that comes with the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
Yup, totally not needed. -
10-16-2018, 07:43 PMBillyKaplanI'll yield I got my foot in my mouth there. But usually when people with that person's attitude talk about getting trans people medical help, they mean things more along the lines of shock therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX
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10-16-2018, 07:47 PMDaranion
When was the last time you talked to someone who actually DIRECTLY said medical help is akin to shock therapy or pray the gay away type situations? These people need help because it's life changing decisions and the suicide rate is insanely high because many people are hit with awful regret after they go through with it. Counseling and therapy is needed first and foremost before anything else. The problems may run deeper than just "I'm in the wrong body"
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10-16-2018, 07:54 PMSavagelfQuote:
Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX
Hormonal therapy which can cause cancer, surgery that increase the chance for suicide by large increase, it seem the original poster saw as chance politicalize the forum. the issue is this part of really world isn't need. -
10-16-2018, 08:10 PMNirokunBeing trans disrupts your life, boom, now it's a disorder. There are extra steps, extra legwork that needs to physically transition. That's a huge disruption. If you don't do these steps, crippling GID / GD. Again, huge disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
A disorder is a disorder if it's a disorder. Not if you casually "decide" it's a disorder for yourself, that's not how things work. -
10-16-2018, 08:24 PMSavagelf
many gamers come to Video games to escape the political and really world drama we come here to not worried about SJW or such nonsense, football was escape for some but it was stole for them. to the original poster you know people will called it SJW then why did you post it, did you link this to your facebook page. look let say SE decide against your desire will you launch a campaign called them a bigot a homophobia and intolerant, will you point me out be a bigot and intolerant because I against it. will you tried to doxy me or Yoshi P if SE refuse to bow to your demand. the Japanese are more Anti SJW anyone. we have enough trouble with really life, Portland had riot "protest". is this another feather in your cap.
the problem is those who push this care less about those they tried defend it just tool for them, if you truly knew someone who was struggle with this you won't be push it and who had struggle with and has pass away for struggle for this -
10-16-2018, 08:43 PMkamenkuroPeople with problems need help. You're saying "not all" but if they fall into that category they do. That's like saying not everyone that hordes doesn't need help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
You sound like you really just don't like the idea of doctors. Child abuse because of autism is far less frequent than the help they get because they are diagnosed. In fact the periods where it was diagnosed less are the periods where abused more. The thing is though, is that the only instance where a person doesn't need help is if they are fine with their issues and it isn't hurting them. If it's hurting them they need to be helped, and with suicide rates and depression statistics folks need all the help they can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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10-16-2018, 09:10 PMYukinoAmidalaYou are in complete denial if you honestly believe that having a mental disorder is a optional/voluntary thing. No one is trying to insult anyone by stating that it is a mental disorder, they are just stating that it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Also for the record it is ok to have a mental disorder, you need to relax. -
10-16-2018, 09:35 PMFynlarQuote:
Being trans disrupts your life, boom, now it's a disorder.
Except it doesn't mean that for every trans person. For some, the only "problem" they have as a result of being trans is all the "normal" people insisting they have a problem.Quote:
People with problems need help. You're saying "not all" but if they fall into that category they do. That's like saying not everyone that hordes doesn't need help.
Surprisingly enough, that doesn't count as a innate problem tied to their condition. It's just bigots being bigots, and wise guys thinking they're able to speak for the personal experiences of others when in reality they don't have a damn clue what's going on in someone else's head. Go figure.
That's actually exactly how the more ambiguous disorders work. If it doesn't disrupt order, it's pretty erroneous to call it a disorder. And in this case, it's up to the individual to decide if this is something that disorders their life.Quote:
A disorder is a disorder if it's a disorder. Not if you casually "decide" it's a disorder for yourself, that's not how things work.
This is exactly why GID got a rename in the DSM, because having a gender different from your sex doesn't cause disorder for everyone. Incidentally, asexuality (and other non-hetero sexual orientations in the past, such as homosexuality) is another sort of thing that used to fall under disorders in the DSM (such as HSDD) but have now been recognized as a legitimate orientation and not inherently a disorder.
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Also for the record it is ok to have a mental disorder, you need to relax.
Never said it wasn't okay. What isn't okay is insisting someone has a disorder when they aren't suffering disorder. That's just victimizing them for no reason other than your need to feel superior over them. -
10-16-2018, 09:43 PMMoroMurasakiIt's almost like they believe that dysphoria gets to identify itself as something? Like each person's dysphoria gets to decide whether it's a disorder on an individual basis or something... which, ironically, is kind of transphobic/problematic (god I hate that word but it fits here) because it implies there is choice involved with how someone feels their gender dysphoria which is a slippery slope towards backsliding into old, ineffective treatments for GID.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirokun
Also I just want to say for a 26 page thread on a potentially touchy subject I think people have been like startlingly accepting of actual (to borrow Nirokun's phrasing) "true blue" trans people. I was kind of worried we would get some psychos in here trying to disrespect actual trans people and for the most part that really hasn't been a thing.
Almost like gamers aren't intolerant neckbeards like some people wanted to imply...
If you are trying to lump the nonbinary people in with actual trans people who transition you're being really disrespectful to people who are actually trans. Transition is an amazingly difficult process that is expensive, dangerous and mentally taxing. It is not deciding to put on a dress one day or pants another or cut your hair short. Those people are not trans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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10-16-2018, 10:06 PMkikix12So...There is a man that always assumed he, himself, was a woman. That's a trans person, right?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Now, we have two possibilities. Them undergoing the sex change surgery and the accompanying therapy and whatever else is part of it (it depends on country and doesn't really matter much further in this post anyway) or them not undergoing it and accepting the fact that they have the opposite sex.
1) If they underwent surgery then the matter is actually clear. They WERE bothered by it. They life WAS negatively impacted. The surgery was their "cure" in much the same way as it is for physical ailments. The only difference here is that a physical change is for the sake of aiding the mental sphere of someones life. But you know what?!...That's not even unique. Women that undergo mastectomy sometimes fall prey to severe depression, loss of self-esteem etc. Their cure is a surgery that gives them back the breast or breasts that were previously cut. Well, a fake one, not the exact same. And their depression often completely disappears after that. And I'll have you know, depression is without a doubt considered a mental disorder in every part of the world by pretty much every doctor. The most common mental disorder in the world, in fact. So yes, surgery whose purpose is to make a person "feel good" is a proof of them having a mental issue before it.
2) If they live in a male body they have to deal with the consequences of that. They will have to use the toilet for men whenever they go to school, shopping centers etc. They will be spoken to by "mister", "sir" by everyone they didn't meet before (and apparently that is an issue, it is this threads very point). They will have to write they are male on any document that requires that information. They will not be allowed to take work that is reserved for women only (employers often prefer women for certain roles, like hostesses, but it's a must-have for actors that play women too, obviously). Even if the law somehow allows a person to be considered a woman despite being in a mans body thus allowing them to enter the womens toilets or signing documents as a woman, they still will not be allowed to undertake those jobs (since those usually are based on body, not documents) and they have to actually go through the process of that being accepted. It's an equivalent of a surgery.
So...No matter which way I look at it, a person that is trans have their life quality being negatively impacted at some point, whether or not they accept themselves. Even if they accept themselves and shrug at the consequences of that, they are likely to have moments when they will be more susceptible to that popping up. And if they don't?!...Um...Are they actually trans people then? I mean, if a person feels perfectly fine living in a mans body a mans life...can they really be trans, can they really consider themselves women, in the first place?!
In my opinion it seems like you are denying the trans people the consideration. You are blindly pushing this philosophy of yours without any real care into what it means for the people you'd like to think you "defend". This is part of the reason why feminists or other activists are so looked down upon. They often cause more harm than good to those they are "standing up for", all the while getting on the nerves of everyone else in the process. -
10-16-2018, 10:25 PMSigma-AstraI hope you're not the type of person that says depression isn't a mental disorder and that those people just need to think positive thoughts or something based on your stance regarding that people having a gender identity crisis isn't some kind of disorder either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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10-16-2018, 10:44 PMFynlarTrans is trans and it both counts. If you want to limit your definition of trans to strictly mean transsexuals, go for it, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow your lead or acknowledge your limited viewpoint.Quote:
If you are trying to lump the nonbinary people in with actual trans people who transition you're being really disrespectful to people who are actually trans. Transition is an amazingly difficult process that is expensive, dangerous and mentally taxing.
Being trans does not necessarily mean you must undergo bodily transition, either. That's crap, and not everyone can even be accepted for or afford it anyway. What you're proposing is just gatekeeping, and it's not even disguised well.
Says the person who posted two long paragraphs right above that, pushing their "philosophy" on how they think every trans person must feel, when not every trans experience can be neatly summed up in two paragraphs.Quote:
In my opinion it seems like you are denying the trans people the consideration. You are blindly pushing this philosophy of yours without any real care into what it means for the people you'd like to think you "defend".
You're misrepresenting my stance pretty badly.Quote:
I hope you're not the type of person that says depression isn't a mental disorder and that those people just need to think positive thoughts or something based on your stance regarding that people having a gender identity crisis isn't some kind of disorder either.
I said that trans people experience a disorder if they feel like their condition causes disorder in their life, because it is not the kind of thing someone from the outside can judge for them. For some, probably even most of them, it does. Still doesn't necessarily mean all of them. -
10-16-2018, 10:51 PMCaitlyn
Are we talking about a "gender neutral"-option or disorders?
Well, its FFXIV. A imaginary fantasy world with magic, dragons, flying turtles, talking frogs and only two genders. I dont see the point where we need to put anything from our real world into the game. -
10-16-2018, 11:02 PMAreic
There are only two genders aside from the hermaphrodites who rarely live a long life and make up probably less than 0.1% of the world population.
Thus there are only two gender options.
Bada bing bada boom -
10-16-2018, 11:14 PMDaibunnie
Please no, the sjws will demand even more outrageous changes if they do get their way. Don’t ruin an already great game with nonsense that 98% of the community doesn’t even want/need. It's just superfluous and needless changing of the character customization and dialogue. Not to mention the hundreds of equipment and mogstation items that need to get changed for the “nonbinary” gender, which wastes even more dev time.
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10-16-2018, 11:26 PMBahati
There is really no point in arguing gender or lack there of between players. That's none of our business, honestly. What we should be arguing is that a fantasy game has no need for identity politics. Eorzea appears to have two genders. If that is unacceptable, play a different game.
I don't even feel comfortable assuming every player who considers themselves non-binary even cares what gender options are in this game. It's a character not an extension of the psyche. -
10-17-2018, 12:17 AMNiwashiCan I try to veer this conversation a bit more towards the original topic by pointing out that, in a world like Eorzea, where physical transition is as easy as drinking a potion before you go to bed, it would be far less of a disruption and far less of an issue than it is IRL. In a world where Fantasia exists, and people can be whatever gender they want to be, nobody's going to be stuck in the "wrong" type of body, so it would be safe to assume everyone's body-type gender is their correct one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirokun
Which leaves the only people the request applies to being those who don't (or rather whose characters' don't) have an emotional/mental gender at all, and see themselves as truly genderless. It's a different issue, and I believe a far less common one, than being trans. -
10-17-2018, 12:32 AMSavagelf
let talk sale and sell ffxiv since this what is more concern to devs. right we know that Japanese hate SJW-ness we know 80% American hate political correctness. let see head line ffxiv bring non-binary character in to please a minority. oh crap we just lost huge majority of are consumers basic because on this move. if you look game company that made similar mistake in last few months one game that introduce in WW2 game a Britain woman sniper complete flopped after it did that. every time you tried do something like this your sale take huge hit people know what they like. I think better square enix keep away for this ideal, it less profitable and make your fans hate you
first I play ffxiv 1.0 we only had male and female of one character race we move past that now -
10-17-2018, 01:03 AMMelichoir
As I did bring up GD, I also have to point out, that it wasnt my intention to lead the conversation away from the OPs initial point about gender non-binary people and the options revolving around them.
In terms of trans inclusionary or exclusionary, there is no argument (at the surface level) that this game is trans exclusionary on the simple basis that you can literally at character creation create any character you so do choose, and of those, you can self identify as a trans character should you choose. Meaning, If I wanted to, I could easily state that my character is FtM Trans. There is nothing in the game which would counter that point, notably because the game does identify people along sex. And the end goal of a trans person, broadly, is to be identified as the sex/gender they feel (male or female). So there is no contention in that regards, which is why discussion about trans issues in game is a bit moot largely (unless the issue then is that the game should outright state a character is trans, which [in my own opinion] is a political move and not in line with the values of many people in the trans community. That being they want to be the gender/sex they identify with, not be a nondescript other and be 'otherized')
The OPs position was on gender identity, particularly non-binary identities, or gender identities that are not the norm (norm in this context referring to averages, and not a reflection of 'right' or 'wrong'). In this regard, there could be an argument the game does not have options for non-binary, however, the push back against the "non-binary options" position is based upon people not agreeing that non binary is a thing and that this is political/sociological.
So yeah, if people want to discuss further, Id probably recommend getting back to topic on hand, which was Gender in regards to binary/non-binary, not necessarily Trans issues. -
10-17-2018, 01:28 AMkikix12It's not philosophy. Everything I wrote is pure logic. I did show all sides of the coin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
People can only undergo surgeries for fun, to solve a problem or against their will. There is no fourth option much the same way as there is no option for a human to be born from an egg. Humans are born live after undergoing the entire process of evolution inside the womans womb. That's how the world works and there is no philosophy to that either.
If a person willingly underwent a sex-change surgery, there clearly was something they wanted changed. It's not up for debate. It's not guesswork. It's not a secret. If you don't want change then you do not cause change unless forced to do that (through social pressure, bribery, threats or whatever).
That change then could be for fun or to fix an inconsistency. If it was for fun, for example for a guy that wants to go to the womens changing rooms legally to satisfy himself, then the reason would not be to match his sex with his mental gender. It would be fun. That's not a trans person.
If it would be to match the biological and mental gender of a person, then it's a fix done because having them separate doesn't allow a person to live their life how they want. Otherwise they would not need it.
There is nothing up to debate in what I posted. I guess that's why you didn't even TRY to debate it. After all you didn't give a single argument to counter anything that I wrote, instead writing it off as "philosophy" and making excuses that I wrote what people have to feel, when there was nothing as such there.
I'm not really sure what even is the point of you posting here though. You don't want change, you don't want to explain yourself, you don't even try to defend anyone directly. You're just writing pointless stuff that is devoid of any substance. The only thing I can think of?! You're trolling. Seriously, this is probably the first time I ever considered someone "trolling"...but it's really the only possibility I can see. Because there's no way I can make heads or tails of what you wrote in this thread other than that. -
10-17-2018, 01:28 AMSelovaQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
You have a pretty warped way of thinking. Me agreeing with the data that's been confirmed by scientists and doctors that It's a mental disorder does not mean I look down on people suffering from mental disorders, I can't even comprehend how you can even come to that conclusion. Feel free to keep generalizing entire groups of people because apparently you know exactly what everyone thinks that agree's with it being a disorder. I think there is something more telling about you since you completely derailed this topic into accusing people of insulting or looking down on trans people when that's not even what the topic was about. Not one person in this thread was saying negative things about trans people until you came along and made the claim that everyone that agree's with GD being a mental disorder is somehow the same thing as looking down on people that suffer from it. I think you should take a step back and look what why you have this frame of mind in the first place, It's not a healthy way of thinking. -
10-17-2018, 01:41 AMIscah
To go right back to the original post, and what Vaelin actually asked for (with the defensive comments stripped out) is:
ONE option. Maybe a tickbox hidden in a menu that would make the game insert "they" rather than "he/she" into dialogue referring to their character. That's what I pictured they were asking for when I first read the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelin
Not demanding huge changes and alternate character models.
Perhaps the issue lies with them not clarifying exactly what they meant by a "gender-neutral option", leaving people to imagine something else entirely. -
10-17-2018, 01:54 AMSigma-AstraNot really, I'm merely going by what you're throwing your stance as. Just because you don't see it as a medical disorder, does not mean that it isn't classified as one in the medical science and psychology field. It's an abnormal and unusual stance of the brain thinking in such a way that contrasts towards what has been scientifically and clinically proven as facts through decades of studies and human evolution. We can say that, yes, there are factually two genders and those that don't wish to be a part of either one have a mental abnormality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
However, that doesn't mean that those who don't view themselves as a male or female are abominations in any way, which is what you're painting others in thinking just because they don't agree with you.
I have a mild form of OCD and it is a mental disorder, it's not normal for people to have or experience that sort of line of thinking within their brains. However, that doesn't mean it's a terrible thing and that I'm some kind of victim or abomination for having a disorder.
There's nothing wrong with admitting that you have a problem or abnormal part of thinking within your brain. Nothing wrong at all. -
10-17-2018, 02:06 AMLastFireAce
I rather they call my character Male/Female. But whatever float you're boat.
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10-17-2018, 02:07 AMWyssahtynFantasia is not an actual item in lore. It has flavor text because everything requires flavor text. See: http://nunhofthat.tumblr.com/post/12...ck-im-in-japan Specifically:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niwashi
1. Would a regular average joe in Eorzea be able to get their hands on a Fantasia potion, it does not appear to be widespread as it is. And if so, is there a reason why it does not appear to be used by people in power/ people with evil agendas?
A: While the Fantasia potion has some in-world flavor text, it’s mainly meant to be seen as a meta object. For example, you wouldn’t see it’s use, or reference to its use in storylines since in effect it doesn’t actually exist (… So far. You never know if something might change :P) -
10-17-2018, 02:35 AMViduONE option that would require them to alter an ungodly amount of text and wouldnt be viable in every available language to begin with - I dont know about french or japanese (or chinese and korean, if we wanna count those too), but I can tell you that its not possible in german.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
Of course they could choose only to stick to altering the english version, but even then it would still be a massive amount of text that would have to be checked and altered accordingly to serve a very, very small minority.
The whole wether or not non-binary or more than two genders is real-discussion is actually pretty irrelevant to this.
I dare to say that its a waste of ressource to put them towards something that only a tiny part of the community is ever going to use.
Introducing ONE option can easly mean a lot of work for the devs that could be better spend on something else that actually benefits the whole community.
...I'm mentioning this before someone brings up stuff like Savage and Ultimate again, because even if a large amount of people dont complete O12S or maybe never even try it, they still benefit from content like that being in the game, in the sense of the devs thinking about new mechanics etc. making the overall game more intresting.
The overall gain from having this ONE option seems very minimal at least to me - on top of not even being possible in at least one of the supported languages.
So besides people not wanting rl-plotics and the like in their game to begin with, it also just seems like a waste of ressources to me.
You know what I'd like to have? ONE option to turn of all flashy lights, including enemy-abilities. And you know why? Because it actually hurts my head, as in physical pain. While I would like to see this option, I also realise that this only affects a rather small amount of people and that ressources spend on that could probably be better spend elsewhere - which is why I never asked for it. Obviously that was my choice and asking usually cant hurt, but before you do, you should think about what asking for your ONE option actually means in terms of workload and overall gain for the community, the game and yourself. -
10-17-2018, 02:47 AMChalbee
28 painful pages. Notes: 1) some of you need to develop a little resilience, life tends to be relatively unkind, and the majority of people will hurt your feelings out of carelessness and ignorance, but seldom malice. 2) Sometimes there is malice, and usually it doesn't matter what you say at that point. People without souls aren't going to suddenly find one. In other words, there is a sympathetic minority, a hostile minority, and a vast majority who could not care less about niche social issues. I'm not trans, but I am gay and Jewish which makes much of "the internet" (e.g. Reddit, twitter, gaming forums) a relatively hostile place. I've scrapped my fair share, but at the end of the day it's pretty pointless. If I got worked up every time someone accused me of eating Christian babies or plotting the downfall of the white race, I'd probably have an aneurysm. Good thoughts, good words, good deeds are what matters.
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10-17-2018, 03:08 AMkikix12It would actually affect a lot of people. It would reduce the system demand meaning that weaker computers could run the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
I would also use that option because, frankly, all the "bang" looks nice, but it makes it nigh impossible for me to understand what the heck is happening if stuff compounds, like several mechanics at once. I literally have no idea what I'm looking at when I watch people doing bosses on YouTube or the like because all of the pointless effects distract me when I am not actually playing.
So yes. That one option would have a lot more purpose in the game than you think. There's not even any comparison to whatever is suggested here. -
10-17-2018, 03:30 AMEmdub
Greetings, Adventurers!
Although we appreciate all of the feedback received within this thread, I'm afraid we need to close it at this time.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause, and wish you many more enjoyable adventures in Eorzea.
-=Senior Game Master Emdub=-