Why the hate with endgame fights?

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You are assuming that I haven't.

In Os4 you are LITERALLY running around while a giant bullet chases you (call its a black hole if you like)

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Yet nothing on your lodestone profiles shows that you have cleared any of the current raids, and your previous posts also point in that direction. If you really knew o4s you would not use it to prove your point.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Yet nothing on your lodestone profiles shows that you have cleared any of the current raids, and your previous posts also point in that direction. If you really knew o4s you would not use it to prove your point.

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You said Try the content, not clear.

My previous post indicate that it typically just ends in a cluster F because people get angry and leave. (Probably because its just a bunch of instant death running around bullet hell stuff instead of actual mmo stuff).

I've cleared os1, os2. If you really must know.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You said Try the content, not clear.

My previous post indicate that it typically just ends in a cluster F because people get angry and leave. (Probably because its just a bunch of instant death running around bullet hell stuff instead of actual mmo stuff).

I've cleared os1, os2. If you really must know.

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Those two are literally the easiest of the tier...

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Those two are literally the easiest of the tier...

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I'd even say the easiest raid tier ever made in FF14...

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You said Try the content, not clear.

My previous post indicate that it typically just ends in a cluster F because people get angry and leave. (Probably because its just a bunch of instant death running around bullet hell stuff instead of actual mmo stuff).

I've cleared os1, os2. If you really must know.

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The "real" raid starts at o3s and what you're saying just adds more to the fact that you barely know how o4s works. Take Grand Cross mecanics from Neo Exdeath, those are not your typical dodge bullets stuff. But I doubt you ever saw that.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

I'd even say the easiest raid tier ever made in FF14...

The "real" raid starts at o3s and what you're saying just adds more to the fact that you barely know how o4s works. Take Grand Cross mecanics from Neo Exdeath, those are not your typical dodge bullets stuff. But I doubt you ever saw that.

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He made mention of the black holes being bullets that chase you, so somehow he's trying to turn that into his narrative...except unlike bullet hell games, you have four players kiting black holes...not just one single player. He tries to equate this to a bullet hell game, but somehow forgets to acknowledge stuff like the White Hole mechanic, the already tight DPS check that prevents you from even seeing his other form if your team isn't on point, and dealing with his fire that you have to place specifically so you don't kill everyone. Oh yes, and the ever fun knockback + white hole.

I do wonder what game he will share that shares the knockback + white hole mechanic.

*edit

Oh...how could I even overlook this. Bullet hell games allow you to HOLD a single button down...so you're dealing a steady stream of damage while making your focus all about dodging the bullets. There are literally parts in O3S and O4S where you will not be DPS'ing the boss because you HAVE to execute a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

I'd even say the easiest raid tier ever made in FF14...




The "real" raid starts at o3s and what you're saying just adds more to the fact that you barely know how o4s works. Take Grand Cross mecanics from Neo Exdeath, those are not your typical dodge bullets stuff. But I doubt you ever saw that.

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Oh please, semantics. I'm using bullet hell as an example. If you can think of a better way to describe what is going on, by all means let us know. Nitpicking does not accomplish anything.

I'm troll prof by the way. I literally get paid to listen to teen problems. Thanks for helping me stay awake at work.

I just felt I had to add this, because for whatever reason, he keeps saying it. I don't think you're using the term correctly here.

According to Merriam-Webster, Semestics is "the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development"

Also, "the meanings of words and phrases in a particular context"

Let me go ahead and post my source before you start nitpicking that too. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

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Agreed, and somehow I end up being the one nitpicking.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

an enrage timer is foremost a way to gate content behind the gear spiral and to make sure people take DDs with them - i don't think they are "difficult" in the first place, it's just a cheap move from the devs to make sure we won't go back to Coil T2 enrage tactics ^^

fights are difficult enough without enrage timers, proven by the fact that people will wipe for weeks on the hardest fights, without ever seeing the enrage, because they die loooong before the timer runs out...

and yeah, i think you can compare bullethell games and FF14's endgame. in both you can't win with skill alone - yes, you need skill, but you also have to learn the boss rotation / bullet pattern, wich is always exactly the same, until you know beforehand what will happens next and how to deal with it. and that works with wipe over wipe over wipe...

however, i see nothing wrong with it, despite the fact that i don't like it much.

but i really REALLY hate it to wipe because you ran out of time - it just feels so cheap...

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I just felt I had to add this, because for whatever reason, he keeps saying it. I don't think you're using the term correctly here.

According to Merriam-Webster, Semestics is "the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development"

Also, "the meanings of words and phrases in a particular context"

Let me go ahead and post my source before you start nitpicking that too. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics

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Anything to not talk about the topic. Right?

I'm glad you learned something about syntax today.

Still have not give a better way to describe the Bullet Hell End Game that is FF14 currently.

plural noun: semantics
"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

Enrage timers are necessary and the lack of enrage timers leads to some pretty.. interesting results. A game I used to love dearly (tera online) used to have enrage timers on most fights similar to what we have now in higher tier content on FF. In recent years since it's gone f2p they removed alot of the enrage timers in fights. I came back to try it again after being away for some years and found that most content lacked enrage timers. The impact that this had on the community is definitely a negative one. Before, people would try to dodge and do their best to keep uptime and make sure they were up to par because dying repeatedly was expensive (due to breaking crystals or used up crystal binds (crystals were basically materia but better and crystalbinds were a one-time shield against breaking on death, very costly for each back then)) and too much death meant you were met with an enrage timer.

I came back to the game as a tank and healer and I'd say the majority of my time spent on healer was resurrecting people who didn't care to dodge or try to do mechanics. Fights took so long as a tank that I found myself getting tired of the same boss wacking at me without a break, with some fights taking upwards of 30 minutes. The death penalty was alleviated quite a bit by crystalbinds being pumped into the economy to the point where a freshly capped player could afford a month's worth of them with the gold they had from finishing the story quest. There's no enrage timer so people don't bother trying to not die or play well. The standard in some of the harder content is to bring two healers so you can just keep resurrecting people because you can just outlast boss fights. This may sound fun to you but it was a very un-fun experience being a resurrection dispenser for people who felt like giving 5% of their all while playing and expecting me to pick up the slack.

People really would stack tanks and healers to just chain resurrect people if we had no enrage timers, as is the very thought of paying attention to the game and completing mechanics while doing decent damage is largely considered heresy. I'd like for you to see what happens if people could take all the time in the world to finish a fight, I've seen firsthand how that turns out and it's sad to watch and even sadder to be a part of. Remove enrage timers and you'll have even more problems finding groups as a dps because people will be stacking resurrections to just ignore things, things taking considerably longer than they already do (that's actually possible surprisingly), overall group coordination to be tossed out the window for "just keep ressing if someone dies", and most likely an increase in "toxicity (a.k.a the favored buzzword of the forums)" from people getting frustrated that everything takes so long. You may cite the death weakness as deterrent enough for people to not keep dying but considering it no longer decreases your hp you can live and just take longer with minimal effort and a permanent "beyond death" debuff.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You said Try the content, not clear.

My previous post indicate that it typically just ends in a cluster F because people get angry and leave. (Probably because its just a bunch of instant death running around bullet hell stuff instead of actual mmo stuff).

I've cleared os1, os2. If you really must know.

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Bullet hell games throw tons of bullets at you and make you rely on twitch reflexes reacting to random damage coming your way. Mechanics in ff14 are heavily scripted dances with clear cut and precise ways to handle them that you know ahead of time once you start learning the fight. It's the furthest thing from a bullet hell game possible unless you're going in blind, have extremely bad reaction time, and are unable to remember a basic sequence of events. In that case the fault lies with the one who lacks the capacity, not the game.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

It just a Speed run in a slightly different disguise and they were supposed to die end of 1.2. Where you had to do sub 17 minute av and cc runs to get relic salts when 25 mins was already considered a Speed run.

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You wouldn't be happy getting wacked by a boss for 30+ minutes while you watch your multiple healers resurrecting repeatedly until the boss gives up, drops a treasure chest at your feet, and walks away.

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Originally Posted by Tint

an enrage timer is foremost a way to gate content behind the gear spiral and to make sure people take DDs with them .

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All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

It just a Speed run in a slightly different disguise and they were supposed to die end of 1.2. Where you had to do sub 17 minute av and cc runs to get relic salts when 25 mins was already considered a Speed run.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run.
It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

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That's litterally all a dps is good for. Their very mark on the fight. Healers and tanks already have their own enrages. Namely the health checks and tank busters. Removing enrages is basically saying I don't want to be challenged on my job. And before you say that's what dps check are for, what is holding you from doing half your job doing the rest of the fight?

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

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Bullet Hell games typically have a set of mechanics that are always the same and repeat. So the way to play them is to learn the pattern then optimize, similar to how people learn the boss fights in FF14 (very similar).

When I first started really messing with Savage, it was A9S. I'm aware it's one of the easier ones but for me I hadn't really done anything Savage (other than A5S which I nearly cleared) before so it was really hard for me.

Once I learned the fight it got dull. I was just going through a set of motions. I knew what move to use at what point and it just got boring. I don't want to follow a script like that.

I do want more random things to happen.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Anything to not talk about the topic. Right?

I'm glad you learned something about syntax today.

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I have quite literally been responding to a huge chunk of posts in my own thread. So I'm not sure where you are getting off that I'm not responding to my own topic. But since you want to assume I'm trying to avoid my own topic...

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Still have not give a better way to describe the Bullet Hell End Game that is FF14 currently.

plural noun: semantics
"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

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You have not even given a good example of how bullet hell games even correlate to FF14 endgame. They aren't the same. Dodge this attack, hurt the boss...that's like every combat game ever (outside of FPS and RPGs). Which brings me to...

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Bullet Hell games typically have a set of mechanics that are always the same and repeat. So the way to play them is to learn the pattern then optimize, similar to how people learn the boss fights in FF14 (very similar).

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Most games featuring combat of a sort are like this. If you really want to break it down, Mario does this. 'Don't run into a Goomba unless you have the Star Invincibility...jump on their heads. Watch for that moment when chain chomp stops bouncing on the ground, wait for him to try to strike in your general direction, and dodge/avoid as appropriate. Jump on bomb-omb to disable it and then react as appropriate before it explodes.' Pretty much all Mario enemies have a pattern. Same with 2D Castlevania. Watch for enemy attack patterns, react as necessary. If your argument is that the connection between FF14 and bullet hell is 'learn the pattern, optimize, repeat', platformers, some FPS, some RPGs/action RPGs, and a huge swath of other MMOs do the exact same thing.

Why don't you show me the bullet hell equivalent of the following, since you are being very adamant about bullet hell:

All Savage raids: unavoidable damage, tank busters, healing

O1S - fireballs + ice slide
healers having to deal with Charbydis
intentional boss positioning for his clamps, especially after the one he uses from the edge of the arena

O2S - double stack markers
placing down tentacles
double stack markers while running
-100G
the gravity mechanic itself

O3S - Critical Hit
All variations of Queen's Waltz
The entirety of the Library Phase
Animal Farm
Iron Giant + Ninja phase
Reapers + Tethers phase

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Originally Posted by Dzian

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

It just a Speed run in a slightly different disguise and they were supposed to die end of 1.2. Where you had to do sub 17 minute av and cc runs to get relic salts when 25 mins was already considered a Speed run.

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Originally, I was going to dispute this. But now that I think about it, in a sense, perhaps you're right in that trial fights are similar to speed runs. While the fights themselves do promote both efficiency and quickness, I wouldn't say it promotes players rushing. The fights promote optimization in a timed window - basically, they test if you really know how to play your job. Trust me, a lot of us who have been through some difficult wipes can tell when players are rushing - they make silly mistakes in frustration, show that they are incapable when under added pressure from a mechanic/series of mechanics, and/or screw up a rotation and are unable to recover from that.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

When I first started really messing with Savage, it was A9S. I'm aware it's one of the easier ones but for me I hadn't really done anything Savage (other than A5S which I nearly cleared) before so it was really hard for me.

Once I learned the fight it got dull. I was just going through a set of motions. I knew what move to use at what point and it just got boring. I don't want to follow a script like that.

I do want more random things to happen.

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Have you fought beyond O1S? I'd say that O3S is quite the challenge, even with her script with mechanics changing depending on where exactly she is.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Have you fought beyond O1S? I'd say that O3S is quite the challenge, even with her script with mechanics changing depending on where exactly she is.

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I have cleared O1S, which even I found to be rather easy so you know that difficulty was really low, and saw enrage a few times on O2S but never bothered to get around to clearing it.

It's hard for me since I have a depression issue. I make one mistake and suddenly feel like I don't belong there and stop doing it entirely. I never cleared A10S for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

Enrage timers are necessary and the lack of enrage timers leads to some pretty.. interesting results.

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...in a trinity game.

Enrage timers exist to limit the power of healers - Games without healers don't need (and typically don't have) them, because when a boss does damage to you in such games, it sticks. It doesn't just get erased, nor can you erase death with res, which means "coming back" from a mistake is only possible by not making further mistakes, the margin for which decreases with every mistake you make. No matter what, you can only take X failures and if you take longer, that only means you need to dodge more stuff, you still don't get to fail more often than X.

Healers however allow you to artificially drag fights on, because the standard punishment for failure is damage and healers exist to undo damage, so if they have resources to spare beyond their un-avoidable damage gimmicks, they can use them to trivialize mechanics, provided the mechanics allow them to. You can't just take X failures, you can take as many failures as your healer's resources will allow and those often can be regenerated.
If healers are relatively weak, that's not much of an issue. When you buff them to heck and back in order to make them more satisfactory to play however, you will need mechanics healers cannot trivialize. One-shots are the soft form of that, because the healer needs to use relatively expensive raises and will expend his resources much faster, DPS checks and enrages the hard form, because healers have very little influence on that.

When you give tanks and healers considerable damage on their own, they also have the nice bonus effect of making DPS actually mandatory in the same way healers and tanks are. Otherwise, the requirements would be only one-sided: DPS need tanks and healers by design, but tanks and healers don't need DPS by design. That pretty much is the tape and glue that keeps the trinity together: You make checks that absolutely require tanks, checks that absolutely require healers and checks to absolutely require DPS.
A lot of balancing issues between the roles would become apparent if roles had to stand on their own merits, rather than being mandated.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

I have cleared O1S, which even I found to be rather easy so you know that difficulty was really low, and saw enrage a few times on O2S but never bothered to get around to clearing it.

It's hard for me since I have a depression issue. I make one mistake and suddenly feel like I don't belong there and stop doing it entirely. I never cleared A10S for the same reason.

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Yeah, O1S and O2S are the easiest in Deltascape. I can understand about the depression...I've struggled with it myself since 2011. I won't lie...O3S is punishing on healers because of all the damage. But...I'm the sort of individual who hates being unable to take on a challenge. We're on the same datacenter and I main a healer, so I'd be very happy to run with you after I come back from my burnout break. Could help you with some healer-specific tips, if you'd like.

What's kind of funny with you saying this Bobs is that in the trailer for 4.2, the jade stoa trial actually has what looks like the enemy bullets from Nier Automata, which is kind of a bullet hell action game. It might not just be figurative, but literal! And of course, solo Lakshimi missile command.

I get what you are saying though. There's more in common with action and bullet hell games than traditional MMOs here.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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First. You're way off topic here. You transformed a "why people hate endgame?" into a "Why my hardcore raiding is gone?" and second you are wrong about the skill ceilling. You want challange?

Unnending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate)

Can you still say Yoshida is lowering the skill ceiling? Because there is no other content in the game harder than this.

Let me just state this. I think it is safe to say the enrages are not the main turnoff from extreme and savage modes. Rather I believe it is the trial and error nature of those fights combined with the lack of handholding. Do I think that is reasonable as a roadblock? Absolutely. These fights still very much respect your intelligence and are a better way to put your mastery to the test.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You are assuming that I haven't.

In Os4 you are LITERALLY running around while a giant bullet chases you (call its a black hole if you like)

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If all you're doing during Black Hole is simply "running around" then I don't believe you find the content as easy as you claim it to be.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Anything to not talk about the topic. Right?

I'm glad you learned something about syntax today.

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I'm not sure why you keep trying to bash people for things you seem to be struggling with.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

First. You're way off topic here. You transformed a "why people hate endgame?" into a "Why my hardcore raiding is gone?"

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Nah I didn't. you might want to re read what I said.

I basically said some people hate endgame because they find it unapproachable / overwhelming because of the lack of a real difficulty curve.
players wanting to do endgame stuff are greeted by this massive increase in difficulty and it's quite simply overwhelming for many of them. they clear a normal mode and think there ready for the extreme / savage and they're a million miles away.

I also said if the game had a real difficulty curve that promoted player growth and improvement as they progressed through the game instead of what currently exists then it's likely more players might then might actually find end game fights to be more fun and approachable

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

and second you are wrong about the skill ceilling. You want challange?

Unnending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate)

Can you still say Yoshida is lowering the skill ceiling? Because there is no other content in the game harder than this.

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I'm not wrong at all. Creator and omega were deliberately made easier in attempt to make them more accessible. the ceiling you need to reach in order to clear them is lower than it ever has been.
what they did was basically bring the content DOWN closer to the player. and not push the player UP closer to the content.

that is why the top players rofl stomped omega and creator because they quite literally smashed straight through the ceiling and kept on going up.

In a way ultimate doesn't count. Because ultimate is designed for the 1% of the 1% basically. by comparison making creator and omega easier and lowering the skill ceiling was done to try and close the skill gap and making raiding more accessible to the masses

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

HM01

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My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

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If the party puts the tentacles on the little wagon wheels instead of the edge of the arena, you will be able to see all 4 markers very easily when zoomed out. it doesnt have to be placed on the very edge, just a tad inwards.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

And that's why enrage timers need to die in a fire.

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If you want enrage timers gone, what would you replace them with? SURELY you don't want the meta shifting to a 4 tank 4 healer meta where ALL DPS jobs are excluded because you can just ignore mechanics with invulns and erase mistakes with heals/resses.

How would you solve this issue? Or is your intent to simply 'dumb down' the content so that others can do it?

Are you ok with mid-fight DPS checks? I.e. if failed - does something, spawns adds, void zones, etc.? or are those bad too?

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Originally Posted by Bobs

It's impossible to run out of MP. I would change that.
I would make stun mechanics useful again.
I would make it so you need to dispell boss or the players.
I would make it so DPS have to make a stun rotation.
I would get rid of predictable mechanics.

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Ok this is a good start, but still too non-committal to the discussion.

I agree on the first change.
I agree on the second change.
I agree on the third change.
I agree on the fourth change.
I agree on the fifth change.

Now that we've covered you and I are in complete agreement, let's see if we can dig deeper.

HOW would you change these things? Give examples. Try to frame it in context we can understand in the current design paradigm.

Here are 2 posts I've made previously on this topic and how I would change things. I'd be curious to see your input.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ork-%28LONG%29

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Eureka-Concept

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You just want to mindlessly press 1,2,3,4 as fast as you can and see your score (parse) at the end. Any real challenge would make parses useless, can't have that can we.

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As a pro-parser person I disagree with this statement. That is not what I want to do (you can see an example in the link above that covers my idea of more engaging play). I also love measuring my performance and improving upon it and I love the cooperative competition that stems from it.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Take Grand Cross mecanics from Neo Exdeath, those are not your typical dodge bullets stuff. But I doubt you ever saw that.

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This is actually a pretty bad example. Grand Cross Omega literally feels like a bullet hell while you're doing it. The others I'd agree with though, but you could probably come up with half a dozen better examples lol.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

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This is inaccurate. An enrage timer serves reduce the power of healers/tanks as well as hold players accountable for mistakes. Make too many, and you cannot clear.

Let's say hypothetically they removed them in the current encounter design paradigm. How do you imagine the game would move forward? Knowing what I know, it'd shift to a meta where tanks and healers are brough and DPS classes are shunned because they do not bring any tools. Tanks would be brought because they can just rotate invulns and cheese mechanics, and healers would be brought to heal any incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm not wrong at all. Creator and omega were deliberately made easier in attempt to make them more accessible. the ceiling you need to reach in order to clear them is lower than it ever has been.
what they did was basically bring the content DOWN closer to the player. and not push the player UP closer to the content.

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What's not said here was they did this for RAIDERS, not casuals. That is, the raids and difficulty curve were so bad that even raiders who beat coil couldn't clear the raids in any real percentage. They tried relatively slow balancing attempts, and things like Thordan ex to help give little boosts, but they had to chuck it all out at the end because they made it too hard period. They found out really badly that the way the encounters are make an upper floor to how hard you can make it and not get 1% of the base to complete it.

It's not "make this so casuals can do it." The skill floor was high enough to make everyone struggle in their own niche save for the 1%. And te 1% even kind of burned out on ultimate; it took the same time as the hardest alex raids to down, despite the lower skill floor.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

snip.

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I don't need to provide any evidence that you don't know what you're talking about, you've already done a splendid job of that. Like linking the video of UCoB and comparing it to a tohou video. You also can't make the claim that endgame isn't challenging, when you clearly aren't doing said challenging endgame.

You keep trying to draw comparisons between FFXIV's endgame and bullet hell games and failing at it, You logic is literally "If you have to move/run to avoid anything it plays exactly like a bullet hell game, I'm honestly kind of baffled how you even think the two games are remotely similiar, If that is your debate tactic then any game in existence where you have to move to avoid something is exactly like a BH game, surely you can see how ridiculous this claim is?


Like i said before, if all endgame is is a glorified bullet hell game and isn't "challenging" then you should have zero issues getting into a group to clear UCoB, Let me know how that works out for you.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

What's not said here was they did this for RAIDERS, not casuals. That is, the raids and difficulty curve were so bad that even raiders who beat coil couldn't clear the raids in any real percentage. They tried relatively slow balancing attempts, and things like Thordan ex to help give little boosts, but they had to chuck it all out at the end because they made it too hard period. They found out really badly that the way the encounters are make an upper floor to how hard you can make it and not get 1% of the base to complete it.

It's not "make this so casuals can do it." The skill floor was high enough to make everyone struggle in their own niche save for the 1%. And te 1% even kind of burned out on ultimate; it took the same time as the hardest alex raids to down, despite the lower skill floor.

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I am now 90% sure everything you say is a lie.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I am now 90% sure everything you say is a lie.

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Knowing Riyah, she is probably referencing her favorite tier (Gordias) to try and prove her point that raids were made easier because Gordias was too hard; and that Gordias was purposely designed to be purposely overtuned; and that raiders couldn’t rise to the challenge. Not that it was a testing mistake on behalf of the developers that they openly acknowledged and apologized for and fixed, or anything.

Or that many raiders have claimed Midas/Brute Justice was their favorite raid tier in terms of fights and balance, or anything.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Knowing Riyah, she is probably referencing her favorite tier (Gordias) to try and prove her point that raids were made easier because Gordias was too hard; and that Gordias was purposely designed to be purposely overtuned; and that raiders couldn’t rise to the challenge. Not that it was a testing mistake on behalf of the developers that they openly acknowledged and apologized for and fixed, or anything.

Or that many raiders have claimed Midas/Brute Justice was their favorite raid tier in terms of fights and balance, or anything.

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I thought about that but the quote she was responding to specifically mentioned Creator and Omega.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

So....basically, you're pretty much fine with going through the whole game Netflixing while hardly paying attention? Are you the type that dislikes being challenged in optional content? Besides, there's only so much the devs can add every 3-4 months when the casual base just eats through everything in just a few days. Part of that is on the devs for making things easy like that, part of that is on the player base for not going in moderation.

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Sure there is... long term goals. Something this game lacks outside relic weapons. Hopefully Eureka comes through and remedies this.
You don't need content with a million mechanics for it to be fun either. That's just what our devs choose to keep churning out.

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Originally Posted by ViolaCrossfire

https://isitfunnyoroffensive.com/wp-...15633232_n.jpg

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I don't need a trophy to play in the first place. The past month I've been running shit with friends because I was enjoying myself. Got nothing in game for it worth any value to myself.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I had more fun last night learning how to heal Exdeath (Savage) than I have had in weeks doing "Expert" dungeons. Why? The former required my brain.

That's the issue with anecdotes. Your definition of fun isn't universal. Now I wouldn't take near the amount of umbrage I do if people who didn't want to put forth an effort stayed out of harder content. Instead, they whine everything is too hard and needs nerfs. So now what I enjoy gets watered down because you (generalizing) can't be bothered to do more than press a handful of buttons.

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You clearly didn't read the post directly prior to the one you quoted. I at no point call for nerfs to content difficulty. I've been asking for hard 4 man content for a long time. Content should not feel like work however.... games should be fun

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

You clearly didn't read the post directly prior to the one you quoted. I at no point call for nerfs to content difficulty. I've been asking for hard 4 man content for a long time. Content should not feel like work however.... games should be fun

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Here's the thing, for me, I want to be challenged. I want to be pushed forward. It's why I'm pushing to get back into my static. It's why I want any relationship to be intellectually stimulating for me. For me, I want to be challenged. The idea of being challenged, that is fun to me.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Or that many raiders have claimed Midas/Brute Justice was their favorite raid tier in terms of fights and balance, or anything.

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But Midas was just as hard in effect, and didn't reverse the trend. Otherwise we wouldnt have seen creator at all. From what I understand, Midas was different, but replaced one style of difficulty with another. It's hard finding data, but this references the lucky bancho census around the time when people were doing it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._ffxiv_census/

It didn't really reverse the decline, but kept parity with it.

This is actually a pretty good blog from that time, too:

https://fashionninjutsu.com/2016/08/...-some-numbers/

I think people here are forgetting the past a bit. Midas was still too hard in the dev's eyes, and didn't really fix the problem of people not raiding or participating. It didn't really reverse the decline at all, you needed creator for that. They made creator primarily to help raiders; mostly the midcore, which were pretty vocal about how HW had no content for them on places like reddit and how they were stalled at points and unable to progress at all. Casuals in general didn't really raid at all, which is why they made story mode alex...casuals didn't even touch the coils, and missed out on the story.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

In a way ultimate doesn't count. Because ultimate is designed for the 1% of the 1% basically. by comparison making creator and omega easier and lowering the skill ceiling was done to try and close the skill gap and making raiding more accessible to the masses

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What? That doesn't make any sense. So if the content is harder it doesn't count. If the content is easier is to try to make the game more casual. You are clearly contradicting yourself.

If you you are facerolling omega savage just go to ultimate and get a real challange, lul. It doesn't matter if the content is made for 1%, I thought you wanna a challange, a raise on your skill ceiling. Well, you got it, have fun.

I have a feeling no matter the situation you'll never be satisfied.