Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

But I find that a bit hard to do in FFXIV for obvious reasons such as the game purposefully putting you, and your customized character, in the shoes of the hero. And somehow I'm not experiencing this world as well as I did for other worlds, from the perspectives of main characters in other Final Fantasy games. Perhaps ... I'm just not very good at experiencing, but I always have this feeling they experienced their worlds much better than I do.

And thus in terms of pure experience, FFXIV does not quite compete with the other traditional Final Fantasy games. It's just a niche for people who want to try out the WoL concept in first-person.

(Edit: It's probably just me though. I liked Witcher 3 more because there was already a main character. Mass Effect 2 was ok because Shepard was more or less a preset personality as well. But Skyrim was just a bit weird, as it was first-person without a preset main character. So I do find it easier to enjoy the story when I don't bring my own prejudices into it, when I'm not playing it as "myself".)

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Well, like Cilia said, wants are infinite, resources are limited. This is part of why I don't get the "Let's make peace with Garlemald" thing that some people push. The basis of any good story is conflict, and Garlemald is the main antagonist for most people in the realm. The Ascians, while antagonists as well, are not widely known, and certainly not as immediately dangerous to the vast majority of people as the Garleans are. Existential "Rejoining" is important to everyone of course, but it's hard to care about an abstract concept like that when you have the very immediate specter of famine or disease or a gunblade to your head. Thus, from a meta story building perspective, Garlemald as an antagonist is imperative for the time being. Peace may come at a later date, if a sufficiently dangerous antagonist presents itself and warrants a unification of world powers in order to fight it off.

As far as "killing is sinful goes" I have to disagree with that statement unequivocally. Killing is a part of life. In fact, it's necessary for life to exist. Even here in RL we understand that killing is, sometimes, justified and necessary. This is best represented in the "malum in se" category of laws, specifically the exceptions commonly applied for physical self-defense and in some cases the defense of others. Moreso than that though, much of our killing has been done in the context of a war. As nice as it is to think everyone can hold hands and sing the Eorzean version of Kumbaya, he fact is when you have an aggressor who believes they are in a position of strength, then the aggressor has no reason to stop unless they can be shown to be facing someone/something that has greater strength than said aggressor. It's the final point alone that justifies actions taken against Garlemald. Garlemald has been a big world-wide bully, subjugating peoples and continents left, right and center. They, in a nutshell, started it, and they won't see any reason to end it unless we show them a reason. Thus, as a matter of self-defense (and indeed, self-preservation), the war will go on until Garlemald says "uncle."

Now, it's certain that the WoL has killed a lot of things/people. It's also certain that these killings were done in the name of either protecting ourselves, or protecting others. Every primal we have slain (and in some cases, the followers of those primals) has been for both the immediate relief of others ("Yay we won't be tempered by Ifrit/devoured by a giant whale in the sky/swallowed by a tidal wave") and for the long-term safety of Eorzea as a functioning ecosystem. Every battle we've fought with Garlemald has been to undo and/or prevent and/or stop whatever world-ending madness they have sought to incur upon our star. Happily, many of our actions have the side effect of liberating conquered peoples, freeing innocents from oppression, and just generally making the world an overall better place for a very large number of people.

Hence, the killing we do isn't sinful, because the killing we do is in the service of bettering the lives of not just ourselves, but of many many other people. "Ye will know him by his fruits." This particular paraphrased passage refers to the Devil, in the sense that you will know who is the Devil (or a servant of the Devil) by the fruits of their labors. Said another way, actions speak louder than words, and actions have consequences. Ye will know the hero by the fruits of his/her labors, and the fruits of our labors have, universally, brought happiness, contentment, freedom, and general positive effects to a huge number of people. Furthermore, the people who's lives we have changed for the better almost always suffered as a result of the actions taken by an outside aggressor of some sort (usually Garlemald, but there are other, smaller actors, like many of the shadier types in Ul'dah and LL).

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We're all monsters

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I think it's more accurate to say that we all have the capability to be a monster. However, I disagree with what Lyse said about Zenos not being born the way he was. I mean, maybe it''s true, but I do believe that there are beings that can be born "bad" or "evil" or what have you, and I'm not just talking about primals or other supernatural beings either. Maybe there's some tragic back story to Zenos, or maybe he was just an entitled little shit his entire life and what we saw was merely the culmination of that.

But, as I said above, what matters in the end is the consequences of our actions. Thus far, the consequences of our actions as the WoL have been largely positive. Even the DRK questline, while exploring the weight and negative aspects of our actions, shows that the people who's lives we touched were able to move forward from their experiences in a positive way. Now, to clarify, this doesn't mean "the ends justify the means." As the WoL we take great pains to avoid needless suffering outside of the theater of war.

Taking all this into consideration is why I believe that Lyse was correct in calling Fordola a monster. All of Fordola's actions up to that point wore on Lyse; her discovery that Fordola fired upon her own men was the final straw that broke Lyse's metaphorical back. In that moment, Fordola became a monster. It's a testament to Lyse's growth as a character that she has opted to take her prisoner, setting the stage for a possible redemption and personal reformation arc. Old Lyse would have wanted to punch her way to a solution, while new Lyse wants to find a way to bring every Ala Mhigan together, however difficult that may be.

It should be pretty obvious as to why people want to make peace with Garlemald. Aside from it already being established that there's more to Garlemald than initially meets the eye they're a very 'human' foe. So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt. Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

Then, of course, there's the simple fact that Final Fantasy games have a long track record of compelling antagonist/rival characters and factions that gain no shortage of praise and adoration for being interesting and worthy of being kept around and allowed to tell their part of the story. The likes of Rufus Shinra, General Beatrix, Gabranth come to mind where individual characters are concerned. Then, for factions, there's the Shinra Corporation and the Archadian Empire. Neither of which are destroyed or dismantled in their entirety by the end of their respective games.

...and if nothing else, it'd be great for the story to have a bit more depth to it than this:

https://i.imgur.com/n7PnLva.png

The 'neat little package' has been a common criticism of the story as far back as 2.0. I post on a number of sites other than this one and whilst this portion of the community is often an echo chamber on large sites such as Reddit there's no shortage of people expressing the same desires and concerns.

I guess some people can brush it off as being impossible to please everybody if they so desire but that's not what people are asking for at all.

As for what 4.1 and beyond brings, that remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic - though I do hope the stakes for the protagonists start being raised a little higher.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt.

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The Dravanians didn't try to conquer and enslave every corner of Hydaelyn. The critical twist of Heavensward was that the violence of the Dravanian Horde was preceded by eras of peace between dragon and humankind, recall, which was shattered by human betrayal, murder, and theft.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

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Forceful seizure of lands, resources, and human capital, cultural erasure, enslavement, and disenfranchisement are not justification or even a sympathetic response to the wrongs of a distant past. That Garlean officials have offered this as a reason for their actions and as evidence of their inherent 'superiority' is exactly the kind of jingoistic victim narrative one might expect from an imperialistic dictatorship with their origins.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It should be pretty obvious as to why people want to make peace with Garlemald. Aside from it already being established that there's more to Garlemald than initially meets the eye they're a very 'human' foe. So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt. Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

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Theo, in my opinion, you are almost pathologically Garleophilic. You bring up "diplomacy" and the Garleans at almost every opportunity, often in threads that are, at best, tangentially related to either of those two subjects, and even in some cases you'll work it into discussions that are pretty far removed.

Addressing this first paragraph though:

Dravanians - outside of Nidhogg's brood during the Dragonsong War, largely uninvolved with the affairs of the realm. They do their thing, stay out of people's way, and in some cases (i.e. Middy) act as protectors to portions of the planet. edit: Also what Jyera said.

Garleans - yeah, it's tragic that they got beat on by a bunch of different people 100+ years ago. Were those people Eorzeans? Were they Domans? Did Doma have a vast Empire that extended northward to Ilsabard? Did Ala Mhigo engage in a heretofore-unknown and astoundingly successful campaign to their east and north, whereupon they preyed relentlessly on the hapless Garleans for a couple of generations? According to all the information we know now, NO. None of this happened. None of the Eorzean city states have had anything but cursory contact with the Garleans prior to their initial invasion. Ul'dah and Gridania were simply too far removed (and Grid in particular was so insular) that they would have never come into military contact with the Empire prior to 1.0. Ishgard was busy fighting their thousand year war, so they certainly had no reason to engage in a second front with a nation thousands of malms away. Sharlayan was simply a research colony before being abandoned, and while the corsairs of LL may have raided Garlean boats prior to the formation of the Thallosacracy, there certainly was never any formal military action taken under the banner of the city state. Raiders gonna raid, and the pirates of LL raided indiscriminately.

Simply put, what justification did Garlemald have to invade Eorzea? What did Eorzea (and Doma!) do to warrant Garlean aggression? The answer is: fucking nothing. They did not do a damn thing. The entirety of the war being perpetrated now is based 100% on naked Garlean aggression. Which, since we're talking about how "human" the Empire is, I'll remind you that the every pureblood Garlean we've met with the exception of Cid has been very forward in their belief that non-Garleans are "savages" and thus, little better than feral animals. Hell, the Empire has stated on at least a few occasions that they want to effectively wipe out all "non-spoken" races, i.e. the beast tribes, although that seems to have been hand-waved by a lot of Garleophilics. Casual genocide of innocent parties is ok because at some point in time in the past the Garleans got their shit pushed in eh?

No. Unequivocally, no. While I maintain that there is a definite possibility for a more "gray" aspect of Garlemald to show itself, until we see actual Garleans (besides Cid) who display disgust against the policies of the Empire, then it's stupid to assume those people exist. Going off of what has been shown to us, again and again, is that the Garlean Empire believes itself to be the Twelve's gift to the world, and therefore infallible. They can do no wrong, have never done any wrong, and will never do any wrong. Pride comes before the fall, and their hubris is great indeed.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Then, of course, there's the simple fact that Final Fantasy games have a long track record of compelling antagonist/rival characters and factions that gain no shortage of praise and adoration for being interesting and worthy of being kept around and allowed to tell their part of the story. The likes of Rufus Shinra, General Beatrix, Gabranth come to mind where individual characters are concerned. Then, for factions, there's the Shinra Corporation and the Archadian Empire. Neither of which are destroyed or dismantled in their entirety by the end of their respective games.

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You're forgetting a very key point that I, and others, have brought up time and time again. Shinra? Archadia? They both didn't stop doing Bad Things until A. a lot of people died, and B. some sort of greater threat presented itself and forced them to change. Shinra Corp. was great in Advent Children, with Rufus heroically throwing himself off a building to deny Jenova's head to her "children." Prior to that, during FF7 itself, Rufus was basically the lite version of his dad. When Rufus took over the corporation, he didn't just stop using the Mako reactors or trying to preserve the Lifestream and what not. That came after the fuckhueg Meteor that came within a few hundred meters of obliterating the world. The same thing applies to Archadia; once enough bad people were dead and a big enough threat had made itself manifest, the Empire changed. Likewise with Beatrix; only after she witnesses Brahne's madness first hand - several times - does she have a change of heart. In the meantime, Beatrix defends her queen and her queen's actions while she obliterates Cleyra, summons Atomos to eat a good chunk of Lindblum, and almost causes the destruction of her home city of Alexandria. It's only after Alexandria is nearly destroyed that Beatrix finally wakes the fuck up. It was fine when Cleyra was being wiped off the map, but once her hometown is threatened Beatrix finally sees the light. Sucks for Cleyra!

In short, the nice way of saying this is that you're trying to put the cart before the horse here. The Garleans have received no such lesson yet. They've been bruised, but they haven't been pushed to the point where they realize that their pride is their fall.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

...and if nothing else, it'd be great for the story to have a bit more depth to it than this:

https://i.imgur.com/n7PnLva.png

The 'neat little package' has been a common criticism of the story as far back as 2.0. I post on a number of sites other than this one and whilst this portion of the community is often an echo chamber on large sites such as Reddit there's no shortage of people expressing the same desires and concerns.

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You're kidding right? That's clearly Tataru being Tataru. She's always had that "cheery understatement" way of referring to the super heroic shit we Scions accomplish. She helps make sure our heads don't get too big.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I guess some people can brush it off as being impossible to please everybody if they so desire but that's not what people are asking for at all.

As for what 4.1 and beyond brings, that remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic - though I do hope the stakes for the protagonists start being raised a little higher.

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It's not a matter of "can't please everyone" as much as it is the "it's not my favorite way!!!" crowd being unable to understand that they are attempting to shoehorn something into the plot at a time and place where it will kill the story beyond repair.

For 20 years (Ala Mhigo) and 25 years (Doma) the Empire has ruled with an iron fist. The city states of Eorzea were invaded not out of reprisal for some past wrong that they inflicted upon the Garleans, but simply because the Garleans had the power and the will to invade. Naked ambition was the true impetus for the war, with the mistaken belief that somehow, under the "wise and just" guidance of the Garlean hand the world would be made a better place. In truth, the Empire just wants what Thordan wanted. The only thing different is the means to that end.

There may come a time where things shift and we are shown Garlemald in another light. But that time is certainly not now. You continually push to skip to a later book in the series, ignorant of the fact that you need to let the story - and it's characters - tell itself. We are currently on book 4. How many books will there be? I don't know. But what you're asking won't be resolved during this book. It may not be resolved during the next one either. The end of book 5 is probably the earliest time we would see a setup wherein Garlemald becomes a sympathetic entity. Any sooner than that and you are hand-waving and forgiving atrocity after atrocity. And I, for one, don't want to see a repeat of the WoD debacle.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The 'neat little package' has been a common criticism of the story as far back as 2.0. I post on a number of sites other than this one and whilst this portion of the community is often an echo chamber on large sites such as Reddit there's no shortage of people expressing the same desires and concerns.

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I'm very active on the FFXIV subreddit, and I have definitely not seen the alleged lack of shortage of people expressing the sentiments you claim.

It is a rare occasion that the subreddit brings up the plotline and lore, as opposed to game mechanics.

Oh, how I've missed your witty repartee.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It should be pretty obvious as to why people want to make peace with Garlemald. Aside from it already being established that there's more to Garlemald than initially meets the eye they're a very 'human' foe. So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt. Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

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Peace is ideal; however, fighting against an invasive militaristic dictatorship (be it in self-defense or for independence) should not be wrong.

Midgardsormr is alien. Dravanians are an alien species, but the Dravanians themselves are native to Hydaelyn.

The peoples Garlemald is now attacking and subjugating were almost certainly not responsible for Garlemald's suffering. Doma and Ala Mhigo are far removed from their homeland in northern Ilsabard.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Then, of course, there's the simple fact that Final Fantasy games have a long track record of compelling antagonist/rival characters and factions that gain no shortage of praise and adoration for being interesting and worthy of being kept around and allowed to tell their part of the story. The likes of Rufus Shinra, General Beatrix, Gabranth come to mind where individual characters are concerned. Then, for factions, there's the Shinra Corporation and the Archadian Empire. Neither of which are destroyed or dismantled in their entirety by the end of their respective games.

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... let's get into this, shall we?

Case of Rufus Shinra
-Declares he wants to rule through fear rather than money like his father. Tries to execute Barret and Tifa, on live worldwide television, as scapegoats for Meteor. Aids the protagonists in relatively small ways, like getting them out of the collapsing North Crater and firing the Sister Ray at Sephiroth's barrier, and without offering the protagonists a chance to join forces. Shows no remorse for his actions or desire to reform Shinra during VII. Presumed dead at the end of VII; only comes around during Advent Children.

Case of General Beatrix
-Assisted in the needless, aggressive sacking of Burmecia and Cleyra under Brahne's orders. Misgivings extend mostly from wanting to be the one to lead the charge and claim victory, rather than relying on a Black Mage army and eidolons. Does not condemn the utter annihilation of Cleyra at any point. Only comes around when the protagonists are able to convince her beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brahne intended to kill the Princess, thus Brahne is too far gone to truly care about Alexandria's well-being.

Case of Judge Magister Gabranth
-Driven by hatred of his twin brother for the vast majority of the story. A broken man who actually tries to goad Ashe into committing genocide on the Archadians. Remains loyal to Archadaes despite the Empire destroying his homeland, and only comes around when he considers Vayne a bigger threat to his charge (Larsa) than the protagonists. (Admittedly I only played about half of XII; I did not enjoy the combat system and quit in the Sochen Cave Palace.)

Case of Shin-ra Electric Power Company
-Makes no efforts to amend its wrongdoing throughout VII and, indeed, directly or indirectly responsible for absolutely everything that goes wrong during the game and greater Compilation. Presumed defunct at the end of VII; all of its leaders sans Reeve and Palmer are presumed dead. (Rufus: presumed dead after Diamond WEAPON's attack on Midgar. Heidegger and Scarlet: killed after attacking the protagonists with the Proud Clod. Reeve: unknown. Palmer: unknown, incompetent anyway. Hojo: killed by the protagonists at the end of Disc 2.) Only comes around during the Compilation which, remind, was not planned when VII was released.

... I will give you the Archadian Empire, as I do not know enough about it to really comment, nor do I really care to know enough.

Regardless, nobody has called for the complete destruction of the Garlean Empire anyway. All that is asked is that it stop invading other nations, get off the genocide train, and relinquish control of the provinces that do not want its rule like Doma and Ala Mhigo (and Dalmasca, it would seem). That's all, and should not be too much to ask for.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

...and if nothing else, it'd be great for the story to have a bit more depth to it than this:

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Tataru has a penchant for (over)simplifying things. It isn't over, because the fight for truth and justice is never over so long as tyrants and madmen continue to be a threat. However, the protagonists have accomplished their goals for the time being and are focused on structural and social rebuilding; further aggression against the Empire is unlikely to happen any time soon, if at all.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As for what 4.1 and beyond brings, that remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic - though I do hope the stakes for the protagonists start being raised a little higher.

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The protagonists having their homelands threatened to be subjugated and/or destroyed isn't high enough? How high is high enough?

My issue with Garlemalds part in the story being just another antagonist to beat down isn't the problem, it's more that they are shown to be easy to challenge, I'm expected to believe that the WoL can run into castrum abania without much resistance just to cause an upset? I mean sure the WoL is essentially a demigod so that's all good but the other half of the scions just as a group of 3/4? c'mon...

The empire in FF12 for example may have had a ragtag group of people fighting them but never under the context of an actual war or battlefield scenario unless there are ample distractions in place. That is the case with castrum meridianum and Doma castle but the cutscenes have a poor build up and make the whole thing look underwhelming and pathetic on Garelmalds part and this applies for pretty much all similar cases. I am a sucker for big battles though.

The whole make peace thing will happen in the end, it's pretty obvious that we'll get to that eventually, it doesn't seem like our style to beat them until they can't possibly fight back although we'll probably have some big fight with the emperor or some super weapon first.

I made a thing! The Ultimate 'I Love the Garlemald Empire' Thread

Please direct all Garlean propaganda diplomacy there instead, to help more unwashed barbarians know the benefits of Empire! :D

That doesn't really solve the core issue around these parts, though. Threads aren't being sidetracked solely by people praising Garlemald. They're being sidetracked due to the same handful of individuals across both sides of the tiresome debates refusing to agree to disagree. Perhaps instead the proposed thread can be re-purposed into a place of discussion for the morality of various in-game factions and characters? That'd serve to contain the discussion points and prevent them overtaking other threads. Especially since whilst they're not irrelevant to the lore itself they're really just about various poster's thoughts, feelings and opinions on subject matter that is, well, subjective.

A thread devoted purely to fawning over Garlemald doesn't interest me. When I say I loathe echo chambers, it means I loathe echo chambers regardless of what side they're coming from.

...and I'll say this once: I really, really do not appreciate the snark. I've been in bed all week with the flu and I have a funeral to go to tomorrow. I'm not saying this to guilt trip people. Just to remind them that there's an actual person behind the screen - one who is requesting for the harassment to cease. I've asked for the snark and not so subtle jabs to stop in the past and I shall do so again now. I will also respectfully nudge people in the direction of 'agreeing to disagree' once more with that in mind. As I said, it's tiresome. It's boring. It's driving people away from this board and it's making me just not want to bother posting here at all. It's clear neither side is likely to change the other's mind and doing so is pointless anyway because then there won't be any debates to be had at all.

Yet as was mentioned earlier we're dealing with subject matter that is entirely subjective and largely open to any given player's personal interpretation. If you want to see a particular character or faction as irredeemable? Go ahead. Nobody's stopping you. On the other hand, if someone sees a character or faction as a misunderstood or troubled hero then that's perfectly fine too. What shouldn't be happening, though, is the attempts to try and guilt trip or treat posters like they're spouting Wrong Think when discussing these complicated, nuanced issues. That goes for both sides.

I hope going foward with fordola that her fate is decided by the ala mhigans and not by us the wol cuz if it is us that ultimately decides her fate it would be lame imo.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

snip

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So here's your M. O. as I see it:

1. Take established facts, or lore, or scenes from the game, and deliberately twist or otherwise misinterpret them to suit your worldview.
2. Have other people correct you and point out how you've misinterpreted these facts.
3. Whine and call them all meanies who refuse to agree to disagree, or better yet, just plain agree with you.

I'm not sure whether you're here for discussion or just plain argument, but either way, there are reasons why I call you a troll.

But I will say this: This is not about you being such a Garleophile. This is about the fact that you are a massive hypocrite in refusing to actually argue with or respond to people who disagree with you. If you're gonna post objectively wrong interpretations of facts, people are going to respond and point out your mistakes. That is exactly the kind of discussion you seem to want so much, yet you then turn around and claim it's somehow not.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

So here's your M. O. as I see it:

1. Take established facts, or lore, or scenes from the game, and deliberately twist or otherwise misinterpret them to suit your worldview.
2. Have other people correct you and point out how you've misinterpreted these facts.
3. Whine and call them all meanies who refuse to agree to disagree, or better yet, just plain agree with you.

I'm not sure whether you're here for discussion or just plain argument, but either way, there are reasons why I call you a troll.

But I will say this: This is not about you being such a Garleophile. This is about the fact that you are a massive hypocrite in refusing to actually argue with or respond to people who disagree with you. If you're gonna post objectively wrong interpretations of facts, people are going to respond and point out your mistakes. That is exactly the kind of discussion you seem to want so much, yet you then turn around and claim it's somehow not.

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Reading my mind there.

If one does not appreciate snark they should maybe stop using it themselves..otherwise it makes one just feel that one side is allowed to "attack" others (and yes this happened more than enough..I mean who said that this forum is bad because there is a echo chamber and kinda made us look like we are sheep just because we disagree with that person?) and the other is not. Both should stop that but as long as some use this they should not be surprised to get the same medicine back. Also stop with this agree to disagree part..if one decides to completely go off topic and post about Garlemald and maybe even wrong information, they should be quite aware that they are the first reason if a topic derails into off topic discussion..just because others answer the first off topic post does not mean that the first poster has not started it and thus is not responsible for this.

Also on more than one situation where it was not off topic people have tried to use good arguments, taking their time to write it down, only to have it completely ignored by some..either you want a discussion which means that someone does not only post their own opinion but also try to understand the position of the other ones and maybe answer their points. Ignoring those points that may go against your view will not help with a good healthy discussion..this will only lead to arguments for the sake of arguments. I dont agree with everything that Cilia or others say (which is kinda normal..) but I always try to take in someones view and try to take my time and try to use good arguments if I believe different. There might have been posts from me where I should have written it a bit different but I also always try to keep out the snark as much as possible..but yet I got my share of true personal attacks back as a thanks.

Barely anyone wants the complete destruction of the whole Garlemald nation but right now they are the bad ones that are taking over the world for really flimsy reasons..nobody knows if SE will ever decide to make them more gray or even forced allies so arguing for something that we dont even know will happen is bad for discussions that should at least be based on some facts..also just because they has some villains in other FF games that turned to the good side (and seeing the posts it seems that this can be interpreted rather different too) does not mean that they will do the same here..You can like the bad guys..really..there is nothing wrong with that..but they are still the bad ones and trying to paint them in a better light than they are will not change that fact..only time will tell how they will turn out in the end.

On topic:

I do kinda wonder what they will do with Fordola. We seem to get another echo version of her past (with getting hurt by stones), so it seems that they kinda want to explain her view more. Yet still Fordola herself does not really understand why she is still alive and I am kinda wondering if letting her live will turn out horrible. Our Arenvald has some serious kind of death flags for me..please dont do this SE. Q_Q

Well, I'm back from the funeral. It's taking a lot of restraint not to make this post a lot more blunt than it will end up being.

I've only ever used 'snark' in response to it being used on myself - and I've since ceased doing it altogether. At this point, it's just harassment - I've asked a certain poster for an apology in the past for branding me a troll and they have yet to actually deliver on that. As to why they continue to engage me if they believe me to be such is anyone's guess.

Since moving to Cerberus - which, unlike Balmung is easy to make new characters on - I've also had messages in-game from low level alts saying stuff that is bizarrely similar to what is said here. It's pretty creepy. Obviously I can't tell who is doing it, though they've been reported. Clearly it's someone who either posts here or lurks here at any rate.

The cycle needs to cease. My request isn't an unreasonable one - to agree to disagree on issues regarding the lore that are completely subjective. It's clear neither side are going to change their minds, or at least it's very unlikely. That's fine, I have no problem with that - though respect goes both ways. You don't need to change my view of a faction or a specific character. Just like I don't need to change anybody else's view of a character or faction.

Just put me on ignore or something if you're not willing to engage in a debate with me in a civil manner. Like I said, this place is rapidly becoming a biased echo chamber and it's becoming irritating. Especially with the actual dislike some of you seem to have for someone daring to have a different interpretation of subjective elements of the game's very nuanced lore. It's pretty creepy at this point. So, again, I am respectfully requesting that those involved cease and desist. Don't engage me if you're not willing to act with dignity, please.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've asked a certain poster for an apology in the past for branding me a troll and they have yet to actually deliver on that. As to why they continue to engage me if they believe me to be such is anyone's guess.

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1. Too bad, so sad; I'm not about to apologise for stating what I believe to be the truth. Once again: you keep saying you want a reasonable discussion, then turn around and ignore others who offer you discussion or insult them for disagreeing with you. If that's not trolling, then I don't know what is.

2. Please, I have much better things to do with my time than stalk you. The only reason why I spoke up in this thread was because I find your hypocrisy irritating. Kind of like how you claim you only speak up because you find this so-called echo chamber irritating.

And once again: It is not your "different interpretation" that people dislike, it is your blatant hypocrisy that I and others have repeatedly outlined, that you refuse to so much as acknowledge.

You want this "harassment" to stop? It's very simple. You don't have to stop posting, you don't even have to stop being a Garleophile. Just stop with the hypocrisy and actually acknowledge when people offer you reasonable discussion. But judging from your track record so far, that's impossible.

Once again, I will politely request that you cease and desist. Please also stop pretending as if you know me well enough to brand me a 'Garleophile', too. You don't. My current favourite character - Hien- isn't even a Garlean and Garlemald is only one part of what I enjoy about the setting or bring up and discuss. To claim otherwise is simply deceptive.

I'm not entirely certain what is 'unreasonable' about wanting a discussion where we remain civil and agree to disagree. It's not your job to change my mind about the morality of fictional characters or factions. Just as it isn't my job to change anybody else's mind. I have no interest in tiresome arguments that involve a dead horse that has been beaten to death so many times little remains but dust. I suspect the feeling is mutual - and by the words of many involved, they have confirmed as much in the past. So, again, i'm just going to lay that offer on the table and if it isn't embraced I'm just going to assume that the priority isn't actually a discussion at all - it's trying to 'win' a manufactured argument even at the cost of spite and bile aimed at specific posters.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

So, again, i'm just going to lay that offer on the table and if it isn't embraced I'm just going to assume that the priority isn't actually a discussion at all - it's trying to 'win' a manufactured argument even at the cost of spite and bile aimed at specific posters.

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You say this, but then you also say this:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Like I said, this place is rapidly becoming a biased echo chamber and it's becoming irritating. Especially with the actual dislike some of you seem to have for someone daring to have a different interpretation of subjective elements of the game's very nuanced lore. It's pretty creepy at this point.

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So I don't even know what you mean.

(I'm still asking for the citation that Reddit agrees with you. Last I checked, the Lore subforum has gained a reputation on the FFXIV subreddit for being delusionally pro-Garlemald, which seems to be counter to what you claim.)

It's a real shame that tone policing appears to be more highly valued than actually putting an end to these tiresome debates. They're clearly not going anywhere and neither side is wrong - I've never stated otherwise. I'll have to get back to you on the Reddit thing, digging through my post history on a site I post on frequently isn't exactly a priority for me at the moment. With that said, it's a bit silly to claim this place is 'Pro-Garlemald'. That has never been the issue, the problem stems from both sides in a very complicated and nuanced debate refusing to agree to disagree on matters that are almost entirely subjective. Until that is acknowledged, nothing is going to change around here. If it's a matter of pride, then feel free to simply place me on ignore.

At any rate, I made a conscious effort to breathe some new life and discussion into a variety of threads. I suggest you guys do the same. It's a bit jarring that threads like this end up getting 20+ pages yet other threads unrelated to Garlemald and/or morality rarely experience the same luxury. Perhaps that is something we can compromise and agree upon...?

Personally, I think that this thread is getting off course. The discourse on morality, Garlemald, and the like are more or less on topic. However, attacks on specific persons are not acceptable. Let's focus on the game and the surrounding lore discussion, not particular people. We can all make our arguments and counterarguments without resorting to ad hominem or referring to people as hypocrites and the like. Let's all just take one step back and take a few deep breaths to calm down, alright?

Theodric, I'm not interested in ad hominem aggression, for what it's worth. I simply request that if agreeing to disagree is the outcome of my input, I'd like to be present for the discussion that wraps up that way. It makes disagreeing much more interesting.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to make my disclaimer that Garlemald is very nearly my favourite subject in the game, my favourite characters are often Garleans, and I love them all dearly,
but feel great frustration that all the really interesting discussion about them gets polarised into 'kill all garleans' or 'garlemald did nothing wrong' //coughs

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's a real shame that tone policing

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And I'm done with you. Any good benefit of the doubt i was giving you is gone. You clearly don't want what you say you want, because you don't respond to the very well-written (and often not even a little snarky) counter-arguments presented to you. Then, when challenged on this, you bring in irrelevant RL experience, while going "oh but I'm not trying to guilt trip here!" when you quite clearly are. You aren't the only one with a rough life buddy, and as rough as it is, it's nowhere near as rough as the people in Las Vegas just last night. No one else has brought RL stuff into this discussion except you, and quite frankly no one else cares.

Now you have the gall to use "tone-policing" as a defense of your actions, when clearly all your doing is failing to respond to the counter-arguments presented against you. This puts truth to the lie that what you want is discussion. You don't want discussion, you want to be able to say whatever you want to say without correction, even when what you say is clearly factually incorrect, or at best ignores large amounts of important information that is relevant to the topic at hand. In short, I have to agree with MysterySword; you're a troll.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Personally, I think that this thread is getting off course. The discourse on morality, Garlemald, and the like are more or less on topic. However, attacks on specific persons are not acceptable. Let's focus on the game and the surrounding lore discussion, not particular people. We can all make our arguments and counterarguments without resorting to ad hominem or referring to people as hypocrites and the like. Let's all just take one step back and take a few deep breaths to calm down, alright?

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I'm just going to quote this, since it's very relevant. Some of you really need to honestly reevaluate your lives if you're getting so worked up over someone's opinions on subjective elements of a fantasy settings fictional lore. I've said as much already, but it's honestly pretty creepy how much bile some of you are spewing. It's not going to drive me away though, if that's the intention. Regardless, I'll also quote another portion of any earlier post:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At any rate, I made a conscious effort to breathe some new life and discussion into a variety of threads. I suggest you guys do the same. It's a bit jarring that threads like this end up getting 20+ pages yet other threads unrelated to Garlemald and/or morality rarely experience the same luxury. Perhaps that is something we can compromise and agree upon...?

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Right? Right.

Hopefully.

I'm not really sure how many times I have to say that I have no real interest in regurgitating the exact same 'debates' regarding Garlemald with the exact same posters day in, day out. Nobody involved is going to change their mind where the morality aspects are concerned and nor should they - because they're completely subjective and open to personal interpretation. One man's villain is another man's hero and so on. It isn't a particularly hard concept to grasp where nuanced characters and factions are concerned. Or at least it shouldn't be. Thus it is perfectly reasonable to simply agree to disagree. It's that simple - then the tiresome 'debates' need not continue and spill out across multiple threads.

It'd also be pretty great to see other aspects of the lore unrelated to Garlemald get some time in the spotlight for a change, too. Branding me a 'troll' is ridiculous and quite simply false - and if any of you have an issue with me you're welcome to make a character on Cerberus and talk it out. If you're not willing to do that, then it's pretty clear you have no interest at all in coming to a compromise, remaining civil or ensuring that this board does not become a cesspit.

guys can we get back to the topic at hand FORDOLA and take drama elsewhere plz wanna see more disscusion about her :)

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

guys can we get back to the topic at hand FORDOLA and take drama elsewhere plz wanna see more disscusion about her :)

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I kinda agree with you but its difficult to go back if nobody that wants it back truly brings in more points. I did a bit of an on topic last page but it was sadly ignored.

So do you guys think that this might have been a bad decision by Lyse since even Fordola herself cant understand why she is still alive? Will she do something stupid and maybe release her and maybe give her back her sword which makes Fordola attack back?

My problem is that you cant just change ones deep belief over night and especially not if that person that tries to change is, is your enemy. So any kind of redemption for her needs to be over a bit of a time imo otherwise it just feels like "plot demands, plot gives" situation and I had enough of those in HW (uldah for example). Seeing how our Scion boy gets more and more attention I truly fear that he will be used to show Lyse that Fordola will not change by having him being killed by her..I really hope that this is not the case..

Anyway we saw a bit of a sob story in the trailer so it seems that will be the first steps into the direction of making her more likeable for others. I am just not really sure if it should end like that or if she should just stay in prison..I mean that tower shooting should have warranted her a live time in prison and its not like she helped the alliance before they defeated Zenos in any way.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Fordola's redemption

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My feeling is that her relative unfamiliarity with the Echo will be key. I'm guessing that while the Resonance grants her great combat ability she probably has no idea of the other side effects, and these side effects will prove too much for her. Maybe she'll think she's going crazy, seeing visions of the past and not knowing what they are, and this will provide an inroad to working with her. I'm hoping that, as a "veteran" Echo user, the WoL, and possibly Arenvald as well, will become something like mentors to her, to teach her to control her power so she's not overwhelmed.

While Fordola might not see any point in keeping Fordola alive, Lyse has very openly declared why she wants Fordola alive: so that she can witness with her own eyes an Ala Mhigo free of Garlean rule. It's actually a kind of revenge on Lyse's part; if Fordola is executed now, she dies smugly confident that her worldview was the correct one. I think Fordola would very much like to be executed, in fact, rather than live to see the supposedly "free" Ala Mhigo burn when the Garleans strike back.

Lyse wants to prove to her that siding with the Garleans was the wrong decision to make, and that all the atrocities she committed for her ideals were a pointless waste. Right now, while slaughtering all of her own comrades with cannon fire is something that saddens Fordola, it's NOT something that she regrets because she saw it as a necessary sacrifice. Lyse wants to show her that that sacrifice was NOT necessary, that all of the terrible things Fordola did in the Empire's name were NOT necessary, that if Fordola had been a part of the resistance instead, she could have brought about Ala Mhigo's freedom all the sooner - and at the same time, been accepted and loved by her people, who currently despise her.

Technically, this has already happened; Ala Mhigo is free, for now. However, I'm guessing that neither Fordola nor Lyse will consider the job done until Ala Mhigo is safe from Garlean retaliation. Things are not yet at the point where Fordola feels any need to swallow that bitter pill, and Lyse is going to make her choke it down if it kills them both.

I agree in most part with Lineage. Lyse, however, has a line earlier in that she wants an Ala Mhigo that even Fordola can live in, so I don't think it's rooted in revenge.

Fordola was pretty intensely conditioned by Gaius, and as stated earlier in the thread, Fordola likely thrived under his command. My theory is that Lyse, aware of this, likely wants to make Fordola into an example of a hardcore conscripted soldier turned citizen to "see the light" in that the Garlean way isn't the best or only way.

Essentially, my theory is Lyse wants to FORCE Fordola into redeeming herself. If successful, it would invaribly show other Garlean conscripts they can escape and clean up their acts, which would egg on rebellions further.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Essentially, my theory is Lyse wants to FORCE Fordola into redeeming herself. If successful, it would invaribly show other Garlean conscripts they can escape and clean up their acts, which would egg on rebellions further.

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The only problem with an idea like this is that it assumes most conscripts are like Fordola in that they have little family or ties that can be threatened beyond their own well-being. Many conscripts would have family members who are essentially held hostage and depending on how far they've gone they may even have property or status to consider. Some could see that they could leave but wouldn't because they have earned their place and don't want to start again or all the sacrifices they made would of "meant nothing". Personally it could be easy to risk everything for your ideals when you have only your life to consider but throw other variables in and it's not an easy decision to make.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

snip.

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That makes sense, and is a very good counter-argument, but you can also consider the fact that part of the overarching plan with the rapid fire liberation of Doma and Ala Mhigo is to sow seeds of dissent. Adding the conversion and following freedom of conscripted soldiers to that, and those seeds can start to take root on the inside.

Garlemald doesn't look so invincible anymore, and it goes both ways. The conscripts don't want to be forced into the position to fight and survive for a few decades in hopes of gain a few more scant human rights. Garlemald runs itself on fear of the subjugated, brainwashing the masses from the soldiers displaced to farflung parts of the world to the citizens beaten in their own homes by said angry soldiers.

Garlemald does everything it can to take the power and identity away from the non-pureblooded people it rules. This ranges from stealing every penny you make to destroying any semblance of religion to the act of copying your national anthem and rewritting to celebrate Garlemald instead.

Once your beaten into the dirt so badly it starts to taste good is when they start to trickle in little opportunities to gain something for yourself back.

"Be a soldier, and you won't be the one being beaten on the streets. Now that you're a soldier, work as hard as you can and in 20 years, you can get your citizenship. Oh, congratulations. But you're still not a pureblood and all the sins you committed in Garlemald's name are on your hands. You savage."


I think that's one point that's yet to be fully touched upon. The soldiers that are characterized as violent butchers are just people suffering under Garlean rule the same. They HAVE to be that cruel to survive, for all sorts of reasons ranging from the fear of their family back home to having basic human rights again, and the blind racism and classism Garlemald feeds it's people just fuels it. Fordola, like it or not, is a victim of that. Yotsuyu is, too.

If they are monsters, it's because they were trained, conditioned, encouraged, and rewarded to be that way. These people need to saved just as badly as the poor villagers do and I think Fordola may be at the center of that. They need to face justice, but killing the millions of conscripts over helping them reintegrate into society just pushes into the same level of cruelty we're supposed to take pause at.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Fordola, like it or not, is a victim of [the Imperial system]. Yotsuyu is, too.

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One could argue that all Imperial subjects, Garlean, non-Garlean, and non-citizen alike, are victims of the same system. While the Garleans of, say, Solus' generation did know to some variable extent cruelty at the hands of their neighbors in Ilsabard, most if not all Garleans from that time period are likely retired or dead. Gaius, for instance, was only a young child when Solus ascended to power... so he, too, is likely a victim of the Imperial system. Maybe even Varis. Hence, what is needed is reform Empire-wide... along with a leader who doesn't believe in Imperial propaganda, such as all non-Garleans being savages who need to be put to heel for their own good.

Yotsuyu is... a bit different, I think, from your typical Imperial conscript. She seems to have joined the Empire, willingly, and as a spy, not a soldier. While non-citizens have pretty poor lives, Yotsuyu's is implied to be... well, a lot worse thanks to an abusive family. Being an Imperial spy was likely a step up for her.

I think Varis didn't think highly of Solus, or his rule and methods.

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Originally Posted by Quor

My feeling is that her relative unfamiliarity with the Echo will be key.

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Nice idea I never thought about it this way. This could be a good way to not only see more about her past but also for her to see the past of others and maybe the suffering that she, her team and Garlemald brought to the people. This way she might realize what she had done and try to change (but this should still be over time imo) but at least it makes more sense, since she would literally see those things instead of just hearing it which should leave a bigger impact on someone.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

I think Varis didn't think highly of Solus, or his rule and methods.

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Eh? If you're drawing the conclusion from him spitting on a royal coffin, I think that's more likely to be his uncle's than his grandfather's given his uncle was his the other claimant to the throne and this passage from the lore book:

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea

The second Emperor of Garlemald, Varis zos Galvus has many achievements to his name, having served as High Legatus for nine years. He is thus said to favor his grandfather far more than any other member of the royal family. Yet, he did not become Emperor without a fight. Indeed, his uncle--second son of Solus zos Galvus--also laid claim to the throne, supported by one faction that opposed Garlemald's expansion policy and its mandate to eradicate all eikons. A war of succession ensued, and Varis emerged victorious. Though he is said to respect his grandfather's achievements, it has been reported that he also blames the first Emperor for inviting the internal strife by being too lenient with his own son.

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Varis thought Solus was too lenient on his son (the second-born, likely) which actually makes sense with how Varis regarded his own son, Zenos.

Also, the cruelty Garlemald faced from its neighbors was some six centuries ago, and Gaius at 56 is the oldest Garlean we know of (excluding Solus, obviously). It's likely that the surrounding countries weren't on the best terms with the burgeoning Republic, but that was more or less when the whole hiring of mercenaries and sacking took place.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

Varis thought Solus was too lenient on his son (the second-born, likely) which actually makes sense with how Varis regarded his own son, Zenos.

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Lorebook confirms that the uncle who lost the succession crisis was the second-born son of Solus.

I've always wondered what happened to the rest of Varis's family. Obviously he should have a father and mother, but we hear nothing of them. And Zenos should also have a mother, but again, we hear nothing of her.

Varis's father should have been the third-born (or more) son, assuming male inheritance. Solus's first-born died of illness "when the boy was still young" (according to the lorebook), which implies not having been old enough to bear a son like Varis.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

Eh? If you're drawing the conclusion from him spitting on a royal coffin, I think that's more likely to be his uncle's than his grandfather's given his uncle was his the other claimant to the throne and this passage from the lore book:

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Huh, I always assumed it was Solus' coffin. It surprises me that in a violent claim to the throne the loser would even get a dignified coffin like that.

Looking at the cutscene again, it seems it was Solus's coffin. The characters were talking about Solus and his death during the whole coffin scene, and only mentioned the Uncle afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

He is thus said to favor his grandfather far more than any other member of the royal family.

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I'm pretty sure that "favor" in this case does not mean that he LIKED his grandfather, but that he WAS LIKE his grandfather. It's a semi-archaic but still-used phrase. For example: "With her blonde hair and blue eyes, she favors her maternal grandmother more than her paternal."

In this case, the Lorebook is emphasizing Varis's achievements and ambitions as showing that he is very much like his grandfather, more than any other member of the family. Still plenty of room for him to despise the man, in that case.

It's logical enough that he might have some sort of grudge against his grandfather even if he respected his accomplishments. Even the lorebook states that:

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"Though he is said to respect his grandfather's achievements, it has been reported that he also blames the first Emperor for inviting the internal strife by being too lenient with his own son."

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Given that the man went through a (apparently quite brutal) civil war and might blame Solus for that, it makes sense that he might be rather bitter towards his grandfather. Not to mention it reflects well with the sort of callous attachment towards family he showed with his own son's death later in the story.

So there actually is a faction of Garleans opposed to the imperialist and genocidal mindset instilled by Solus... interesting. I hope we get to meet them someday.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

So there actually is a faction of Garleans opposed to the imperialist and genocidal mindset instilled by Solus... interesting. I hope we get to meet them someday.

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There are, but they lost the civil war, so I don't know how many of them are left, between casualties from the war (both during the war and after the inevitable purges) and former peace faction members who decided to join the expansionist faction out of self-interest (whether to join the winning team, or just to avoid the purges).

It's highly likely that if any of them are left, they are completely spent as a political force.