Please scale the difficulty of Royal Menagerie

I don't want another Babysteps of Faith. The fight is in a near perfect state as it is.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

What if said person doesn't have any friends and the FC they in doesn't want to do it?

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Then he can still redo all lv 17-69 dungeons to relearn the mechanics (ok, maybe all lv 30-69 dungeons).
There is no new mechanic in this fight, and no DPS check that demand a perfect rotation.

I'm getting tired of this "I have a life so I can't get good at the game" excuse. I work 14 hours a day and am taking college. If you need everything scaled down to your ridiculously low skill level because you're incapable or, more likely, unwilling to just get better at the game, you shouldn't be playing an MMO. Video games are supposed to be fun, yes, but what's the fun if there's no challenge? What's the point in playing a game where everyone can just farm everything blindfolded? It makes for an extremely unrewarding experience. This is seriously getting old.

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Originally Posted by Furiea

don't play tank or healer if you suck at RM....tank or healer dying is why most RM fails.
Play DPS as a dead weight and you will clear this just fine.

or git gud... almost all the mechanics in this fight are from normal battles. SE just made a collection of them in 1 fight as a way of demanding players to step up.

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I think this is sort of false - I mean yes if you have two healers who have no idea what they're doing it hurts, I recently ran this with a PLD in broken gear (long story, posted it a few days back in Tales from the Duty Finder) but I know this is totally solo healable as I have done it as ilvl advanced and your tanks don't need to be amazing either.

I'd say DPS are actually really important in RM. What kills people there is almost exclusively mechanics not being performed properly; with strong DPS you get through it so much faster things like a second Tidal Wave don't even come up.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Catching up with this thread after not paying attention to it for a couple of days, but I disagree with this. I was barely ilvl 290 when I did this fight on my AST trying to help a friend clear. I was wearing my 290 artifact gear and ilvl 300 jewelry with my second ring being level 67 since I hadn't bought the Verity ring yet. Weapon was the Antiquated 290 weapon. I had zero issues healing this (and I was solo-healing for the most part since my co-healer was practically AFK the entire fight or napping on the ground), and I would consider my gear "freshly geared." I healed Susano Ex and Lakshmi Ex at a similar ilvl and both of those fights are more difficult than Menagerie. Obviously if the healer was in sub-67 or blow gear+weapon, yeah they would probably struggle. But a freshly geared level 70 healer? If they are half worth their salt, they shouldn't struggle.

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I can't agree with this more. I wiped 3 times on my first clear (which I feel is pretty average) and a lot of that had to do with my AST cohealer having all the lag issues in the world. While I am hesitant to claim that I truly solo healed it at that item level I would say upwards of 80% of the healing was on me.

Part of what makes this possible with RM is that the reaction speed necessary to respond to mechanics is not very demanding at all. If these mechanics didn't have the pauses and gaps that they do for you to heal up/reapply dots/etc. I don't think it would be nearly as forgiving but there are reasonably large periods of time that the only incoming damage is the auto attacks which are hopefully hitting tanks.

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Originally Posted by eaudaemon

I like you :D

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Why thank you! Based on your posts here I enjoy you as well. <3

Sidebar on the thread here...

We've all seen the nerf RM threads. What I haven't seen from them is how. They don't quantify the difficulty they want. Are they looking to remove 100% objective difficulties (out of bound arena, insta-kill attacks, wipe mechs) or do they want arbitrary difficulty (boss should do less than X amount of dmg, reduced debuffs, etc) or both? Fault me for playing devil's advocate on this one but if you're going to ask for nerfs, at least specify what you want out of the content instead of letting devs choose for themselves. I mean...



You don't want to end up fighting a boss whose best asset is just being a hp dump and nothing else of note...

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Sidebar on the thread here...

We've all seen the nerf RM threads. What I haven't seen from them is how. They don't quantify the difficulty they want. Are they looking to remove 100% objective difficulties (out of bound arena, insta-kill attacks, wipe mechs) or do they want arbitrary difficulty (boss should do less than X amount of dmg, reduced debuffs, etc) or both? Fault me for playing devil's advocate on this one but if you're going to ask for nerfs, at least specify what you want out of the content instead of letting devs choose for themselves. I mean...



You don't want to end up fighting a boss whose best asset is just being a hp dump and nothing else of note...

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They wanna be able to ignore difficult mechanics and not be punished for it.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Sidebar on the thread here...

We've all seen the nerf RM threads. What I haven't seen from them is how. They don't quantify the difficulty they want. Are they looking to remove 100% objective difficulties (out of bound arena, insta-kill attacks, wipe mechs) or do they want arbitrary difficulty (boss should do less than X amount of dmg, reduced debuffs, etc) or both? Fault me for playing devil's advocate on this one but if you're going to ask for nerfs, at least specify what you want out of the content instead of letting devs choose for themselves. I mean...



You don't want to end up fighting a boss whose best asset is just being a hp dump and nothing else of note...

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The thing I see people die most to is just a complete failure to do mechanics. Little things like running away with the stack marker, stacking for lightning, not watching where they're standing... the issue then for me becomes the only nerf that makes that sort of thing okay is one that completely neuters the fight.

Mechanics are the bread and butter here, RM is like a more intense version of the second boss of Bardam's, and just like that boss without mechanics it's just... nothing.

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Originally Posted by Narcotics

I'm getting tired of this "I have a life so I can't get good at the game" excuse. I work 14 hours a day and am taking college. If you need everything scaled down to your ridiculously low skill level because you're incapable or, more likely, unwilling to just get better at the game, you shouldn't be playing an MMO. Video games are supposed to be fun, yes, but what's the fun if there's no challenge? What's the point in playing a game where everyone can just farm everything blindfolded? It makes for an extremely unrewarding experience. This is seriously getting old.

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I think the core argument here sort of addresses this - they are saying this content is too difficult for the amount of content locked behind it. I think the issue with that thought process is not so much that challenge makes video games fun (though I am right there with you on that point) but more the fact that RM is just not that hard. It's being made to sound like this Savage encounter gating MSQ when in reality it takes a few party members with a reasonable understanding of their roles and the mechanics.

I agree with your end point basically, no nerfs for RM, but I admit I disagree with your reasoning to get there. If this fight was as hard as people made it sound half the time maybe it would need a nerf.

I don't even know why this debate is still going on. Obviously there are no current plans to nerf it.

If I am SE I look at two things.
1.Is there a majority of players approaching level 70 in Stormblood.
2.If there is, is that majority getting clears on Royal Menagerie.

If the answer is no to both of those then the fight should be nerfed, it would be a wise decision financially.

If the answer is yes, then no nerfs should come regardless of a few criticisms.

Only SE knows those metrics. So this is just a back and forth thing until SE shares their own plans. Same thing goes for any content. If some content has more people playing it than other content, the most played content should get the most focus.

My main point is that none of the content in this game is so difficult that somebody with a reasonable understanding of their role and willingness to learn mechanics can't do it. RM, Lakshmi, and Susex have reasonable difficulties but people want SE to nerf the life out of them so they can put in half effort and win.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I don't even know why this debate is still going on.

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There really isn't much TO debate either. The dev team has already put their foot down so to speak, and they did the right thing.

Go to Party Finder. Start one for Royal Menagerie. Let people know you need help clearing. Watch it fill up.

Seriously. You will get a party mostly or completely full of vets.

I helped clear someone last month who is a 90 year old player with twitch reflex issues. During his clear, one of the dps dc'd and remained that way for most of the fight. We still cleared it just fine.

The beauty of these trials is, after the first wave of competent players clear it, we're well overgeared to help clear it afterward, in 330-340 ilevel gear. There is usually only one bonus.

Will you maybe feel bad if you spend most of the fight dead and we carry you? Yeah, but you'll do better next time.

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Originally Posted by Narcotics

They wanna be able to ignore difficult mechanics

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So they should be set then, considering Royal Menagerie has no difficult mechanics? :D

Honestly, I don't think there is a way to reasonably nerf Royal Menagerie that will make the people requesting a nerf happy. Adding Echo doesn't change the fact that you will still have to move on occasion.

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Originally Posted by missybee

So they should be set then, considering Royal Menagerie has no difficult mechanics? :D

Honestly, I don't think there is a way to reasonably nerf Royal Menagerie that will make the people requesting a nerf happy. Adding Echo doesn't change the fact that you will still have to move on occasion.

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How about text messages in the middle of the screen, that explain what to do? With audio for those who can't read.

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Originally Posted by Felis

How about text messages in the middle of the screen, that explain what to do? With audio for those who can't read.

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HIT 'Q' NOW! *Air horn noises*

Being less ridiculous though, were add-ons allowed, I could see something like WoW's Deadly Boss Mods being helpful.

I have mixed feelings about that though...and bringing addons up may have opened Pandora's Box.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Then he can still redo all lv 17-69 dungeons to relearn the mechanics (ok, maybe all lv 30-69 dungeons).
There is no new mechanic in this fight, and no DPS check that demand a perfect rotation.

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Did you read my post at all? I wasn't defending bads. I was saying to the one person saying find friends or an FC to help them. which not everyone HAS. It has nothing to do with bads being lazy with my post and the person I was replying too. And everything to do with not being able to get people to join them to DO said dungeon to clear. Redoing old dungeons will not fix the problem I was addressing. :/ I also wasn't saying nerf it either just to be clear. Only thing I said in tythat context is I can see why. Why you ask? Cause people have this thing with instantly leaving the fight after one wipe. I'm not saying everyone deos it.. but enough people I've seen done it or flat out leave at the start forcing ther others to leave and reque. Having this happen to myself a few times. That que time can be anywhere from 4 mins to a freaking hour. So yes I can see why people are upset, and tellign those people to redo old dungeons does nothign to solve the problem. Now on to thepeople who don't want to learn... THAT is a completely different story. But I wasn't addressing them. I was only addressing a small issue I've seen a few times and providing that defense.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

Did you read my post at all? I wasn't defending bads. I was saying to the one person saying find friends or an FC to help them. which not everyone HAS. It has nothing to do with bads being lazy with my post and the person I was replying too. And everything to do with not being able to get people to join them to DO said dungeon to clear. Redoing old dungeons will not fix the problem I was addressing. :/

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If he don't have anyone to help him he have to help himself. And that mean relearning those mechanics again, which is best with doing dungeons with those mechanics (example, Vault to learn what to do with chains that link 2 people). And for getting the people exist the roulettes (24 man roulette is coming soon, too).
He queue for Vault and get people who queue with the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Felis

If he don't have anyone to help him he have to help himself. And that mean relearning those mechanics again, which is best with doing dungeons with those mechanics (example, Vault to learn what to do with chains that link 2 people). And for getting the people exist the roulettes (24 man roulette is coming soon, too)

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We're talking about 2 completely different people. You're talking about simply bad people. I'm talking about people who can't do the fight not because of skill, but because of not having the people to go with them to do it. And I'm ojnly bringing this up cause everyone loves to say " find friends or FC" And my reply to that is " what if they don't have any? Or the people who they DO have don't want to do the fight." What is THAT person supposed to do? That's what I'm asking.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

We're talking about 2 completely different people. You're talking about simply bad people. I'm talking about people who can't do the fight not because of skill, but because of not having the people to go with them to do it. And I'm ojnly bringing this up cause everyone loves to say " find friends or FC" And my reply to that is " what if they don't have any? Or the people who they DO have don't want to do the fight." What is THAT person supposed to do? That's what I'm asking.

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List themselves in the party finder, recruit 7 other people and complete it. Or alternatively, queue up and hope you get 7 other competent people.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

List themselves in the party finder, recruit 7 other people and complete it. Or alternatively, queue up and hope you get 7 other competent people.

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Well yeah. There's always the party finder. All I was trying to say is the whole " find friends" isn't as easy as it seems for some people. Hell my example wasn't RM but the old 24 mans. I still can't get people to help me with Dun, no friends or PF has helped yet. but that's a different issue but is the reason I even said anything to begin with. But no I dont' agree with nerfing the fight. I can just see why some would.. mainly for the reason I mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

Well yeah. There's always the part finder. Hell I used it to get my clear of RM. Hopefully he or who has better luck then I do in PF tho I was loking for 24 mans and that is harder to get people for in general. Which is why I even said anything to people saying " find friends" Cause that isn't always the answer if you don't have any. But I'm barking at the wrong tree cause what I'm trying to defend doesn't work i nthis context due to the fact OP wants this nerfed. Which I don't agree with. I just got caught up in the mess cause " find friends" isn't always an easy thing to do, yet peopel throw it around like it is. Maybe for most but not all.

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If people can't find friends to do it, then that's exactly what the Party Finder feature is there for. Don't know anyone? All good, just list yourself and get 7 people to help. Who knows, maybe friendships will be forged. Chances are if there's bonus tomes involved, people with experience will flock to it, so there's that as well.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

If people can't find friends to do it, then that's exactly what the Party Finder feature is there for. Don't know anyone? All good, just list yourself and get 7 people to help. Who knows, maybe friendships will be forged.

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Trying on PS4 sucks. I edited my reply cause of typos. But yeah.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

Trying on PS4 sucks. I edited my reply cause of typos. But yeah.

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I could be misinterpreting this, but having a keyboard to communicate always helps. Wireless ones aren't bad but they don't stay connected. I use a wired one and play with a controller on PS4. Makes things much, much easier.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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That's why I mention 'refusing to learn.' If the person having issues is at least communicating, apologising and actually trying to avoid the mechanic, well at least we can see they're trying. When I say refusing to learn, I mean someone who doesn't respond at all and doesn't seem to try and move to deal with a mechanic.

Yesterday I had a DRG in the party (who also did not do their level 70 Job Quest) who died to Tidal Wave three times. This is arguably the easiest mechanic to learn in this fight and we explained what to do (go to water spout/follow everyone else), but they died to it every time (they didn't try to group up). Another one they died to every time was the 'Dive Bomb' attack after the phase transition (we didn't explain this one, but... why should we?). I was ready to vote kick them if we wiped a third time, as they spent most of the fight dead (I think they got a total of ten raises in one run).

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I could be misinterpreting this, but having a keyboard to communicate always helps. Wireless ones aren't bad but they don't stay connected. I use a wired one and play with a controller on PS4. Makes things much, much easier.

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nah, I'm using the controller. No KB yet. I need to get one, but just recently moved and bills. So I got another month before I can get one.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I could be misinterpreting this, but having a keyboard to communicate always helps. Wireless ones aren't bad but they don't stay connected. I use a wired one and play with a controller on PS4. Makes things much, much easier.

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My Logitech K800 hasn't had issues staying connected to my PS4.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

nah, I'm using the controller. No KB yet. I need to get one, but just recently moved and bills. So I got another month before I can get one.

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Gotcha. It's well worth the money whenever you're able. Will definitely improve your gameplay experience considerably.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

My Logitech K800 hasn't had issues staying connected to my PS4.

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Hmm, might just be bad luck with wireless then. lol

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I love the fight as well and will /happy any time I get it in Trial Roulette (like today). It keeps me awake.I will stop Raising DPS who die more than three times, though...

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I fully agree there! :) I even que it sometimes to help people and I always go healer to make sure the people who dies gets raised and that I can actually do it on my own with a healer who fails a lot as well.

Congratulations on being able to clear Royal Menagerie Normal Mode yourself.

I'm sorry to hear that you got too much "life" to even begin thinking about playing your class decently.

On the other hand, for someone like me who only really likes raiding. I question myself each and every waking moment the game make me do the same thing over and over and over again. Why am I still here? Don't I have enough "life" to do more exciting stuff outside of the game? Why the tome grind? Did you say relic? Oh, I've not finished one since the first phase back in 2.0 where you pretty much only had to kill 3 relatively fun primals.

Why whine about content you could actually learn from and work on progressively, instead of the time-consuming, mind-numbing ones they force you to do for the sake of "content"?

SEplsdeleteentirebalmungserverkthxbai

According to a new Famitsu article first-timer clear rate for Royal Menagerie is 89%.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...time_from_the/

If you don't want to go to reddit then here's a direct link to the article, although it's untranslated. http://ff14net.2chblog.jp/archives/51979337.html

I think we can put this thread to rest now.

I just cleared it for story mode, three minutes ago. I just spent an hour trying to clear it with an underperforming group, and then lucked into a more competent one on my next attempt. I was bad during the first attempt. I kept getting knocked off the platform, I didn't stack during ank mourne, and I was paying more attention to my fell cleaves than the ground. But that hour I spent sucking hardened me up (oh god, PHRASING), and with the second group, I played like a different, smarter person, and I got the clear and a few comms. I understand the frustration of failing at something you want to succeed at, but the failures make the victory so much sweeter. I wouldn't feel this good right now if it hadn't been a good fight where I KNOW I carried my weight. That's my thought on the matter.

EDIT*

Holy crow, that ending makes it so worth it. I'm wrecked. I made a friend without realizing it and now he's gone because he was crazy. *sob*

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

We've all seen the nerf RM threads. What I haven't seen from them is how. They don't quantify the difficulty they want.

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Happy to. The main problems I see when I lead new players through this is that mechanics hit hard and fast and back to back and don't allow room for mistakes. The poor new person is dead on the floor before they can get the license of the Mack truck that hit them. If they dialed back the damage, then I think new players would have more chance to recover and a better chance of being able to react properly to the next mechanic. When I talk to new players I have helped guide they say there is just so much going on and they're dead before they know it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

All of the mechanics present in Royal Menagerie have been present in previous ARR Hard Mode primal with the exception of two mechanics that only showed up in Coil at the time of release (Ahk Morn and Death Sentence were in later content, but in terms of ARR, they were only present in Coil). They are all extremely simple to execute. Even at release during Early Access, Menagerie was not hard, and it's only going to get easier as people gradually out-gear it enough to help/carry new players or lazy players. Lakshmi Ex is an easy primal, but it does take a bit more thought than just "dodge mechanics"--as easy as the Vrill mechanic is, still requires enough awareness to execute it at the appropriate times. But saying that Lakshmi Ex is easier than Menagerie is a bit of a stretch.
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I just want to add that Akh Morn was also in Final Steps of Faith which is mandatory for MSQ progression so it's not even like it's brand new to players who didn't do Coil.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

I just want to add that Akh Morn was also in Final Steps of Faith which is mandatory for MSQ progression so it's not even like it's brand new to players who didn't do Coil.

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It behaves differently, though. With Niddy you want everyone to soak the damage. With RM you only need the tanks to. That was something I've seen throw groups off.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

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You know, maybe I am making assumptions here (mainly because I don't know where you live or how busy you are to post) but I can't fail to notice how you ignore some of the answers in the previous pages who are refuting your arguments. Instead you are just answering the easy ones.

Again, maybe it's just me.

EDIT: And to talk about your suggestions, while I would consider them for a trial in the leveling process, they are not -or should not- be needed at the final boss of the second expansion. I mean, I a player has reached that point of the storyline he/she must have faced more than once a lot of unforgiving mechanics and survive them all.

A "new" player in the last boss of the present story should not be considered new in the sense of, for example, new on the game. It's not the same.

Just throwing this here for all the whiners.

・xx戦の初回突入時のクリア率は89％
Clear rates for Royal Menagerie story mode for first timers = 89%

source: Famitsu Interview (translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...time_from_the/)

Can't beat it? Well, doesn't mean it's too difficult.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

Just throwing this here for all the whiners.

・xx戦の初回突入時のクリア率は89％
Clear rates for Royal Menagerie story mode for first timers = 89%

source: Famitsu Interview (translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...time_from_the/)

Can't beat it? Well, doesn't mean it's too difficult.

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Just wanted to post that. Hope it ends this topic.
If 89% are finishing it at their first try (I assume that means withing the 1 hour time limit), why should it be nerved?

One big issue that I have witnessed helping newcomers clear it, is when veterans in the group leave the trial after a wipe or two. I understand that you (random players) dont owe others anything, but when 1 player leaves most of the time many will join him or her (to avoid DF penality) and this in turn will make someone write a thread on the forum asking for the developers to remove it or worse encourage the newbie who cleared it to always leave RM after a wipe or two.

They should not nerf it and I encourage the developers to keep this difficulty level for the rest of the MSQ encounters, includding dungeons, but people need to be more patient and help each other.

Why are you all feeding the troll? :/

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Steps of Faith was fine. You only needed to follow some mechanics and expecting everyone to play his own class with a minimum - normal understanding and willing to give it's part. Which in my opinion is the least I should expect of anyone willing to pay monthly sub game to play with in the first place. The problem it had it was that gated a entire expansion behind it.

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All I know is, whenever it showed up in my roulette, it almost always ended up in wipes, vote abandons, or both -- all in all, a bunch of wasted time. Much like Royal Menagerie. And yes, the fact that it gated the expansion meant its nerfing was inevitable. People were not going to stand behind an expansion they didn't even get to play.

With how much stuff is gated in this game, difficult content shouldn't be in the storyline (and I mean difficult in a general sense, not specifically what *you* subjectively think is difficult. If the DF regularly fails it, as far as I'm concerned that means it's difficult in a general sense.) That's what extremes/savages are for.

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Having played XI I must say that delevel-Exp loss system wouldn't work in nowadays gaming experience. Too much frustrations, more if you die because of some else's fault as someone said above. But we DO need something, for example, like PotD where a party wipe can kick everyone out and lose progression.

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Oh, I wasn't saying this game should have EXP loss. It has far too much reliance on cheap instawipe mechanics as a means of fake "difficulty" for me to condone such a thing.

Just saying, if there WAS experience loss, we would obviously be able to get a buffer like we can in FFXI, rendering the whole "nigh impossible to stay at max level without deleveling" thing moot.

No.

/10char.