Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If people could make and maintain this as the goal of a given thread, maybe these arguments could finally stop beating around the bush and think-tank something useful. It seems like 90% of any given thread is either the promotion of a preference or beating common sense into those who believe that their preference and the actual game align when they do not. Rarely do they try to take the big picture and try to align the actual game with something that better serves a larger portion while alienating little to none of the population. Admittedly, though, that's really tough to do.

I would LOVE to see mitigation be more engaging. At that point it becomes a nuanced tradeoff even in rotational skills, rather just an arsenal of bonus CDs, DPS could end up a whole lot more engaging, too. That may be beyond the current team though, or at least its assumed value of its development time necessary.

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Yeah. I do think it is tough to do though.

I agree. I would love mitigation to be more engaging. I also feel it there's a good chance it would make DPS more engaging as well. The problem I feel is two-fold. One, I don't think it aligns with SE's goals of keeping tanking and healing easy for new players because I see newer tanks having trouble with passive mitigation (although it might just be they think they need to save their cooldowns). Two, it would require a huge rework of how bosses work and the tanking jobs themselves.

How I see tanks in ff14 is that the original purpose of dps stance was more for singular questing and existing in the overworld and not taking an hour to kill a mob. Naturally the community has since latched unto off-role dps as a required function of the game. And i don't blame them one bit really, there isn't anything to do after threat is maintained and a tank buster is mitigated.

The direction I hope square goes is to leave dps stances as an overworld mechanic and to add more engagement and effectiveness in the form of interesting/and or utility combos. Thinking things like, a combo finisher that would make the next 5 instances of damage on a boss not your own deal additional potency. Actively spending gauge to implement a more powerful armorbreak, or grant party members buffs. Things to do that net more group damage or survival while being intuitive with traditional tanking.

This thread is a joke. In dungeons on big pulls, Tank stance all day. Anything else Halone x1-2 on opener then swap to sword oath and go bananas. I cant be the only one here that doesnt have any issues keeping aggro and mitigating dmg in dps stance cmon lol. And if you do then why would you complain instead of trying further better yourself on your role. Shitter tanks you come accross in DF dont represent all of us. This is a dps centric game get over it lol.

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Originally Posted by Reokotsae

How I see tanks in ff14 is that the original purpose of dps stance was more for singular questing and existing in the overworld and not taking an hour to kill a mob

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It was the case at 2.0 launch where stance dancing wasn't really so popular. Mostly a practice from top raiders but it wasn't really the norm.
In 3.0, the meta evolved into a more dps centric gameplay, both due to the harsh dps checks in gordias and organically from the class design (having more dps oriented actions).
And really it's not a bad thing, it does make the tank role more exciting but created a pretty big gap in player skills.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

It was the case at 2.0 launch where stance dancing wasn't really so popular. Mostly a practice from top raiders but it wasn't really the norm.
In 3.0, the meta evolved into a more dps centric gameplay, both due to the harsh dps checks in gordias and organically from the class design (having more dps oriented actions).
And really it's not a bad thing, it does make the tank role more exciting but created a pretty big gap in player skills.

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I think SE was trying to close that Gap and as a result the destroyed tank balance it's the main reason why many tanks are just rolling dps or no longer playing.

I hear dpa queues are 20+ mins which is far worse then HW even in it's deadzone.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

It was the case at 2.0 launch where stance dancing wasn't really so popular. Mostly a practice from top raiders but it wasn't really the norm.
In 3.0, the meta evolved into a more dps centric gameplay, both due to the harsh dps checks in gordias and organically from the class design (having more dps oriented actions).
And really it's not a bad thing, it does make the tank role more exciting but created a pretty big gap in player skills.

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It is a bad thing when you side line one tank and make the other two the meta, how is that not a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Faeon

It is a bad thing when you side line one tank and make the other two the meta, how is that not a bad thing?

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Isn't that more on the devs for not making encounters or the job more prevalent?

I don't think players should be blamed on an underutilized job.

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Originally Posted by Kalocin

I don't think players should be blamed on an underutilized job.

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They should though. All tanks are equally viable for any end-game content ever since 2.1. What happens is that the top 1% players decide (with reasons tied to world first race in mind, not because it's the only viable option) that X job performs better than Y job. That's fine, since that is how world first race works. there is always X job performing slightly better enough to justify taking it over Y job.

That said, quid of the remaining 99% players? Those are just sheeps disregarding jobs because "hurr durr they are bad" without having thought a second about it. They are the same people going full STR no tank stance in every content without any regard to their (random) team capacities since "hurr durr the top 1% manages it just fine in their fully synergized static".

I'm not saying that some jobs aren't in a bad spot (DRG, BLM sorta) or straight up not working (hello SCH/MCH) with the current state of the game. But saying that a job is not working because sheeps aren't using it (PLD in 3.X, WAR in 4.0) is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

But saying that a job is not working because sheeps aren't using it (PLD in 3.X, WAR in 4.0) is wrong.

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I said underutilized in the sense that the job's utility was not prevalent in encounters. For instance, magic blocking is something they could have done earlier. My response was in line with the development of Heavensward's encounters and the way War/Drk was designed. The crazy DPS checks obviously are going to bring up the topic of tank dps too, and yes, it is on the designer to make the jobs and encounters balanced properly. Ie. Giving Paladins Int down alongside reprisal, and Warriors' Storm's path/eye were very good with nothing comparable for Paladins.

I can use the same idea now: There is currently no reason to use a dark knight as a main tank next to a paladin. You cannot blame a player for that. A paladin on Delta 4 will be able to eat a 2-stack lightning far easier then a dark knight can while pumping out comparable or better dps.

That's not going to stop me from tanking it either, but it's certainly worth pointing the finger at the designers and questioning their balance decisions, not pointing the finger at the paladin who's going to do it better then I can by mitigation abilities alone.

Keep this in mind when you think about the role of a tank in the game.

Even if you die in this game you can come back and still get loot if the group wins. So "damage the mob to zero" is the only real goal in combat and I dare you to prove me otherwise. Secondary goals are do it easy and do it fast if you can.

The "trinity" system in MMOs is just a popular meme that probably originally developed because it was the most optimal way to kill. At some point I assume someone figured, "we get a high defence character just to hold the mobs, you keep him alive and then we can defeat this monster even with our party as we'll last long enough to damage him down to 0." And it worked so people stuck with the system, then developers eventually started designing encounters and classes(jobs) around having people performing these roles, I suppose.

For tanks not to worry about DPS makes no sense. When it comes down to it all they are doing via tanking is trying to kill the mob through damage like everyone else. Just indirectly - keeping players characters alive and able to attack so the damage output can continue. Tanks are just damaging like everyone else, but indirectly - because no damage is being done if dps are dead from direct attacks. Tanks and Healers are just characters that trade personal damage for utility that assists the group as a whole in its DPSing efforts.

Mitigation is just a means to an end, unless tanks somehow got better gear after the fight for generating high aggro and taking as little damage as possible, they will always want to maximize damage output best they can.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

The "trinity" system in MMOs is just a popular meme that probably originally developed because it was the most optimal way to kill. At some point I assume someone figured, "we get a high defence character just to hold the mobs, you keep him alive and then we can defeat this monster even with our party as we'll last long enough to damage him down to 0." And it worked so people stuck with the system, then developers eventually started designing encounters and classes(jobs) around having people performing these roles, I suppose.

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The system largely developed organically. In old mmos and muds like eq and before you basically had to build your own enmity tools. On top of that almost anyone who could hold a mob on them was a tank in those days. In eq for example at various times warriors, paladins, shadow knights(the 3 tanks admittedly), shaman(healer/debuffer), monk(one of the top dps in the game), and ranger(a dps) were all tanks. And warrior THE raid tank was around the top 3rd or 4th dps(either tied or slightly above ranger and just behind rogue and monk).

In that game to hold hate varried by class, warrior needed weapons that proc poisons and stuns, monk did it through raw damage, and the others used spells with similar effects to the warriors procs(poisons, stuns, slows etc). The idea that a tank didn't do damage was pretty foreign in those days. It made sense that tank damage was somewhat lower than true dps but the goal was still to maximize damage while tanking(heck in eq berserk tanking was a thing for warriors and god their damage was scary doing that). I'm guessing WoW is to blame but I'm not sure, but somehow after those days everyone got in their head that a tank's damage should be utterly irrelevant and I'm not really sure why.

Why not just make Tenacity have a greater weight on attack power? As is, tanks are gonna need 2 stats to be high to eat damage and hit hard. Why not the tank only stat? Yeah, it's a substat, but we already have 2 "primary" stats anyways

I feel like this thread is just extremist...its not one or the other...any (GOOD) player knows, that a GOOD tank knows how to hold aggro...dps, and mitigate attacks. Period...

If OP gets their way, then your just asking for bad tanks, as a tank, i try to go dps as much as possible, but that takes skill...i HAVE to keep an eye on the aggro bars to make sure no one steals it from me...thats MY JOB...if your a tank losing aggro...thats your own fault and u need to learn your role better. If i need to mitigate a TB? then i need to be rdy for it, either with a cd or pop my tank stance to keep stress off healers.

In my static group during raid content...we have some HEAVY hitters on my team, i can still pull and maintain dps stance ONLY...no tank stance, WHILE holding aggro and mitigating all in dps stance....but thats bcc i know the fights....my dps use lucid dreaming and diversion..and the OT shirks me...if i know a TB is coming? i pop a cd or 2, or mix with tank stance, then go back to DPS....ALL WHILE watching my aggro bar to make sure no one steals from me....thats what separates the bad tanks from the good ones.

In normal dungeons and roulette's....ill mostly just play it safe and go tank stance for 90% of the dungeon with mobs, and then do boss fights in dps stance to help clear stuff faster...or stance dance depending on the situation and the quality of the healer/dps im playing with at the time....whatever i KNOW i can do well without stressing healers or worrying dps. ITS BALANCE....NOT ONE OR THE OTHER. Dont tel tanks to stop dpsing, and dont tell tanks to go only aggro combo...a good tank knows when to do both and how to balance it.

If u wanna get REALLY accurate...this OP should read "Dont tank dps IF YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO DO YOUR JOB PROPERLY"

I don't see why, once you've learned the content, that you wouldn't want to maximize DPS as a tank. Priority 1 - hold aggro. Priority 2 - mitigate when needed. Priority 3 - DPS. Holding aggro is ingrained in the tanking jobs from the first dungeon. Mitigation comes with learning content. Once you know the content, you're selling yourself short to not try maximizing DPS.

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Originally Posted by Tihm81

Once you know the content, you're selling yourself short to not try maximizing DPS.

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Except that has nothing to do with the thread. The thread is specifically calling out those tanks that try to Max their dps at the cost of causing the group they're in to fail, whether it be by lackluster mitigation, dps standing in bad and causing the tanks to die from lack of heals, etc. Succeeding in content is #1 priority, but most people would rather sabotage a run for the sake of their own parse than adapt to the needs of whatever unfortunate group they get.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Except that has nothing to do with the thread. The thread is specifically calling out those tanks that try to Max their dps at the cost of causing the group they're in to fail, whether it be by lackluster mitigation, dps standing in bad and causing the tanks to die from lack of heals, etc. Succeeding in content is #1 priority, but most people would rather sabotage a run for the sake of their own parse than adapt to the needs of whatever unfortunate group they get.

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It sounds like you're generalizing "tanks that try to Max their dps" as causing you're group to fail. That's unfair. 99.9% of the tanks in this forum didn't ever group up with you. Succeeding in content is the responsibility of the entire party. A tank has to hold aggro, learn content to mitigate properly and DPS to contribute to the success of a party. In your case(s) of failing content, I'll bet the other party members had different ideas.

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Originally Posted by Tihm81

In your case(s) of failing content.

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Well, see, I've had one or two wipes in content, but I've never had it outright fail, speaking as a tank that keeps in dps stance as much as possible.

Conversely, I have no problem with adapting how I approach content to the needs of my particular group... within reason, whether that involves me playing more defensively, making smaller pulls, or even rearranging my CDs. I acknowledge the limits of my group and adapt.

This thread is about tanks that do none of the above to the detriment of the clear.

I disagree. The thread clearly points out towards a disgruntlement of the tank DPS meta, and wholly expects tanks to remain in tank stance while maintaining aggro and mitigating damage claiming that it's not part of the tank's job to do DPS. It is. The argument for tanks to do DPS is stronger than that of healers considering how A- tank combos (threat or otherwise) all do damage and B- there is hardly ever a need in the game for both tanks in an 8 man raid to stay in tank stance the entire time. I don't disagree with the idea that tanks still should prioritize tank technicalities like holding threat, mitigating damage and positioning the boss so that it causes the least amount of nuisance for the party but if you can do all of that and put out high numbers, then power to you. A tank who won't leave their tank stance for an 8 man raid is just as bad as a tank who won't AOE on a dungeon pull. You contribute more value to your party if you do both of those things, so please, do them.

This is why Savage and extreme primals still have such a low amount of clear considering how many of these people do 400dps each even in the current gear which is nearly impossible if you are even doing any combo. It's ridiculous but we raiders are probably just too toxic for you guys, right?

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Originally Posted by Heatkrieg

I disagree. The thread clearly points out towards a disgruntlement of the tank DPS meta, and wholly expects tanks to remain in tank stance while maintaining aggro and mitigating damage claiming that it's not part of the tank's job to do DPS. It is. The argument for tanks to do DPS is stronger than that of healers considering how A- tank combos (threat or otherwise) all do damage and B- there is hardly ever a need in the game for both tanks in an 8 man raid to stay in tank stance the entire time. I don't disagree with the idea that tanks still should prioritize tank technicalities like holding threat, mitigating damage and positioning the boss so that it causes the least amount of nuisance for the party but if you can do all of that and put out high numbers, then power to you. A tank who won't leave their tank stance for an 8 man raid is just as bad as a tank who won't AOE on a dungeon pull. You contribute more value to your party if you do both of those things, so please, do them.

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People just need to realize that you can't compare this game to other games. Different game different system. Why do people keep on arguing how TERA works better etc when this game isn't anywhere near TERA? Better have FFXIV be TERA2, right? In this game, tanks and healers are secondary DPS. Don't get stuck to your 'fantasy' tank or healer guidelines, because not everything is a yes or no.

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Originally Posted by Tihm81

I don't see why, once you've learned the content, that you wouldn't want to maximize DPS as a tank. Priority 1 - hold aggro. Priority 2 - mitigate when needed. Priority 3 - DPS. Holding aggro is ingrained in the tanking jobs from the first dungeon. Mitigation comes with learning content. Once you know the content, you're selling yourself short to not try maximizing DPS.

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The problem is that more often than not, priority 3 is done at the expense of step 2. A reduction in mitigation at best reduces healer dps and at worst risks death and a possible party wipe. It is common practice on these forums to ignore those effects, especially loss of healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

People just need to realize that you can't compare this game to other games. Different game different system. Why do people keep on arguing how TERA works better etc when this game isn't anywhere near TERA? Better have FFXIV be TERA2, right? In this game, tanks and healers are secondary DPS. Don't get stuck to your 'fantasy' tank or healer guidelines, because not everything is a yes or no.

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Why can't I do that? They're both MMOs. Inb4 this is FF before a MMO. I never said TERA was perfect. If it was perfect, I wouldn't have quit in the first place. All my arguments have been solely on how tanking functioned in TERA. And tanks there are very close in DPS to actual DPS (see here; Rxkt is the tank), so... tanks are sort of DPS there too, especially with Brawler tanks that hold aggro solely through damage (no aggro modifiers or combos at all).

My point in comparison is that there can be a lot more depth to both mitigation and DPS when it comes to tanking.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...28#post4291828

Or you know, I can just spam this image and complain about how tanking is boring in this game, because that's real constructive, right?

My 'fantasy' is to have fun tanking again like I used to. When you imply that tanks aren't secondary DPS in another MMO without researching, that just makes you look really uninformed. What this tells me is that despite playing TERA you don't actually know how tanks work in TERA.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

The problem is that more often than not, priority 3 is done at the expense of step 2. A reduction in mitigation at best reduces healer dps and at worst risks death and a possible party wipe. It is common practice on these forums to ignore those effects, especially loss of healer dps.

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More often is a very small sample size on the high end and way more on the lower end. This is why the context needs to be clear such as who is tanking? How much DPS is he/she able to do? Is it beneficial for healers to DPS more at the expense of tanks? Generally tanks at their peak normally do more than healers in terms of DPS, it's nonsensical to trade our dps for healers dps because of the "dps cap". Most players are not competent enough of doing their best dps, which is why you are probably seeing the ups and downs. You can have tanks doing 400-600dps in the current 2 EXs, and on the other end can have tanks doing 2.6kdps each. It's really the skill of the players affecting the whole result. This is also why Yoship actively avoids having an ingame parses because it exposes everyone's skill level. Only when you install ACT in your computer that you can see the lower limits and upper limits and realize more.

to a certain degree I agree with the OP. As a tank, our first and foremost job is to hold threat. secondary job is to beef ourselves up to be able to take more damage. third job is any party support we may/may not have. LAST in 4th is additional damage. It's last, not first. If you can't hold threat, you have no job griping or stacking damage bonuses.

HOWEVER...Threat as a mechanic is still dependent on DPS (regardless of our threat multiplier). So to a certain point, DPS can help us. After that variable threshold is met, It's non-essential, and IMO prohibitive UNLESS all the other priorities are already maxed or met with stats and rotations. So while I don't see added damage as an issue with tanks, It's silly to try and use it as an excuse to stack damage stats or lose threat because you want to pump out more damage.

And no...they didn't give us DPS skills to communicate that we needed to DPS more in a tank role...the sheer fact that we have skills that specifically have threat multipliers built into them should show this. you have skills to tank with, and you have skills to solo with (the only exception being that of an off-tank role, when DPS skills are simply logical to use). That being said, there have been plenty of roulette runs and Primal battles where after a few rotations of my threat skills, I switch over to my DPS skills and have no issues holding threat. But then again, I'm one of those tanks that tends to stick in tank stance for most of my fights...Cause I spend 80% of my time in roulettes where most DPS don't even realize they have threat reduction skills.

overgearing a dungeon or raid that you have on farm is a different issue, but it's also a different environment. I think this is where most people picked up the bad habits we see today. a year of overgearing farm content leads one to be a bit lazy when it comes to fulfilling your job role in times where it matters.

EDIT: Upon personal reflection, I think that in a general sense, one of the reasons many tanks like to discuss and tweak damage numbers is that compared to threat production, and having X effective health, there isn't much to tweak on your character. Damage is a variable that is interesting and consistently (infinitely) tweakable and will always have benefits no matter how much you have. Threat simply isn't interesting outside of having "enough". same with health. to summarize, it's simply gives us something to work towards. Still not an excuse to argue a need for "more" DPS from a design perspective, and not an excuse to be a bad tank. But I don't see why a tank shouldn't be able to improve their numbers in a dynamic fashion just because we have the job of pissing the boss off the most.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Why can't I do that? They're both MMOs. Inb4 this is FF before a MMO. I never said TERA was perfect. If it was perfect, I wouldn't have quit in the first place. All my arguments have been solely on how tanking functioned in TERA. And tanks there are very close in DPS to actual DPS (see here; Rxkt is the tank), so... tanks are sort of DPS there too, especially with Brawler tanks that hold aggro solely through damage (no aggro modifiers or combos at all).

My point in comparison is that there can be a lot more depth to both mitigation and DPS when it comes to tanking.

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They are both MMOs but of the different nature. Linking moongourd doesn't mean a thing (DPS alone doesn't give you the data you need to comprehend the full story) because you always need to know the full context of the game. This is where FFLogs comes in useful for breaking down fights. Tanking in both games are similar but each game requires different system to support the gameplay. Like what's mentioned before, the games need to undergo a huge change to accommodate such system.

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

HOWEVER...Threat as a mechanic is still dependent on DPS (regardless of our threat multiplier). So to a certain point, DPS can help us. After that variable threshold is met, It's non-essential, and IMO prohibitive UNLESS all the other priorities are already maxed or met with stats and rotations. So while I don't see added damage as an issue with tanks, It's silly to try and use it as an excuse to stack damage stats or lose threat because you want to pump out more damage.

And no...they didn't give us DPS skills to communicate that we needed to DPS more in a tank role...the sheer fact that we have skills that specifically have threat multipliers built into them should show this. you have skills to tank with, and you have skills to solo with (the only exception being that of an off-tank role, when DPS skills are simply logical to use). That being said, there have been plenty of roulette runs and Primal battles where after a few rotations of my threat skills, I switch over to my DPS skills and have no issues holding threat. But then again, I'm one of those tanks that tends to stick in tank stance for most of my fights...Cause I spend 80% of my time in roulettes where most DPS don't even realize they have threat reduction skills.

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Then explain why there are DPS checks in the game. The designs themselves encourage us to DPS so as to avoid getting enrages, literally almost every hard fight has one at least. The design is 100% intended if it has been staying for more than 2 expansions.

If you have to stay in tank stance for 80% of the time for enmity even in single boss fights, you need to look at what you are doing.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Then explain why there are DPS checks in the game.

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emmm.... to be literally what their name implies? dps checks? to check if dps are doing their optimal damage? same reason why we have enrage? if enrage didn't exist you could take a full party of tanks to every fight and cheese the hell out of them but because a dps check need to be meet we have to bring dps to the team very clear and simple, people keep having the stigma of gordian but neither coil or the last alexander had severe dps checks were tanks and healers had to give their last ounce of dps possible, for 99% of the content in the game dps checks can easily be done by a full group of competent dps and if those dps aren't as good tanks and healers add the extra support. idk whats so hard to understand about this.

lakshmi and suzano certainly don't need tank added dps and neither does any of the omega normal mode, we will see if the developers learn from their mistake and doesn't repeat gordias again with savage deltascape. but highly doubt max healer and tank dps will be required.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

people keep having the stigma of gordian but neither coil or the last alexander had severe dps checks were tanks and healers had to give their last ounce of dps possible, for 99% of the content in the game dps checks can easily be done by a full group of competent dps and if those dps aren't as good tanks and healers add the extra support. idk whats so hard to understand about this.

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Hard for most people to understand. You still need to do sufficient dps as tanks and healers to increase the rate of clearing. This especially is important for early prog team where week 1-2 don't give you more gear options to reliably clear 3rd and 4th floor. If you see the initial clears of 3rd and 4th floor, tanks have been doing more damage to bypass the enrage. And it WILL be the same in Omega because the DPS checks are normally tuned at higher ilvl.

The only mistake in Gordias wasn't that it had a DPS check that required tanks and healers to put out as much damage as they had to clear content; it was that the content was far too difficult to be the first raid tier and gear gating was an issue, wherein content can't be cleared without getting upgraded gear from the previous floors regardless of your skill. If anything, Gordias needs to make a comeback in savage because, as the name implies, the content is meant to be harder and less accessible to the public than normal or Susano and Lakshmi are (which by the way are AWFUL examples of end game content because of how literally brain dead they are). Look, there's a very simple explanation for this, the best mitigation of a mechanic is one that you could skip all together. A11S and A12S are good examples of this, with high enough group DPS, you'll skip raid wide damage in A11S and a tank buster or two + the communion puddle mechanic on A12S.

Fall behind because your tank wants to stay in tank stance and use their aggro combo ad infinitum, you'll get hit by those mechanics putting more stress on your healers and your DPS who dealing with said mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Heatkrieg

The only mistake in Gordias wasn't that it had a DPS check that required tanks and healers to put out as much damage as they had to clear content; it was that the content was far too difficult to be the first raid tier and gear gating was an issue, wherein content can't be cleared without getting upgraded gear from the previous floors regardless of your skill. If anything, Gordias needs to make a comeback in savage because, as the name implies, the content is meant to be harder and less accessible to the public than normal or Susano and Lakshmi are (which by the way are AWFUL examples of end game content because of how literally brain dead they are). Look, there's a very simple explanation for this, the best mitigation of a mechanic is one that you could skip all together. A11S and A12S are good examples of this, with high enough group DPS, you'll skip raid wide damage in A11S and a tank buster or two + the communion puddle mechanic on A12S.

Fall behind because your tank wants to stay in tank stance and use their aggro combo ad infinitum, you'll get hit by those mechanics putting more stress on your healers and your DPS who dealing with said mechanics.

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Agreed. Skipping phases also makes it easier to "blow" tanks' CDs which is in favour of clearing the said turns faster and smoothly.

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Originally Posted by Heatkrieg

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while we get the FANCY SUPER DOPE ((((SAVAGE)))) title don't kid yourself is just coils difficulty not 1% top notch raid, it never was meant to be anyways but gordian was a mistake and the developers knew. Only thing I agree that at the beginning gear was gating stats and that caused most of the difficulty. expect it wasn't. even after everyone could get their hand on the best gear possible tanks healers had to still give every ounce of dps possible to meet the dps checks, if anything gear only allowed tanks and healer to dps more not the other way around. that's why we don't have anything close in dps check on the next 2 tiers of alexander and we will never do, like I said (savage) isn't " coil savage" this savage is what coil was don't lie to yourselves. damage is the best mitigation is also another stigma from alexander, that's not true it's just bad design fight admitted by the team coils didn't had this "enough dps will skip this deadly mechanic" and it all depend on how they design the fights.

that's not to say I'm saying thank dps and healer dps are not needed, Because we know they do matter. but lets stop with semantics, what it's not needed is the extra 5% tank dps damage or we wipe > a actual tank who know how to properly mitigate support and dps. which is what I'm saying to both of you, that scenario probably hopefully doesn't repeat again it wasn't fun for us tank it wasn't fun for healers and it just killed the raid community which was strong on the good old coil days.

tldr: tanks dps is important but not the so much that you need that super extra 5%

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

This is why Savage and extreme primals still have such a low amount of clear considering how many of these people do 400dps each even in the current gear which is nearly impossible if you are even doing any combo. It's ridiculous but we raiders are probably just too toxic for you guys, right?

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I recall a post on reddit...

A player took a couple i310 classes to a training dummy and spammed a single skill.
They got around 1.4k dps...

So that '400 dps' isn't even hitting a skill every gcd.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

I recall a post on reddit...

A player took a couple i310 classes to a training dummy and spammed a single skill.
They got around 1.4k dps...

So that '400 dps' isn't even hitting a skill every gcd.

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It was a DRG doing Heavy Thrust. At least if you're talking about the one I'm thinking of.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._unacceptable/

But yes, that's pretty much what the problem is generally.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tency/djwsaoe/