Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

No changes in 4.01, they going to evaluate dps on omega but the translated discussion on reddit basically says dragoons are where there are because of their utility they "greatly" increase party's dps. No mention of the issues with eye mechanics.

No changes for us at all.

#feelsdrgman

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Originally Posted by Khel

No changes in 4.01, they going to evaluate dps on omega but the translated discussion on reddit basically says dragoons are where there are because of their utility they "greatly" increase party's dps. No mention of the issues with eye mechanics.

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They have a VERY loose definition of "greatly". BL, while great, is inherently random given the nature of crits and the fact it is on a 3min cooldown. In current EX runs, you usually get 2 good uses out of it so 40s of a 15% increase. Not horrible, but not life changing either. Hungry Eyes (or Dragon Sight) is a 2min cooldown I think? And 10% for us/5% for our tether buddy IF they're right up on us for like 10s. Given a baseline of 3k DPS, that's only an extra 3000/1500 damage. It is something (2/1 free GCDs roughly), but not make-or-break. Disembowel is a nice buff, but is only 5% and applies to 3 classes, but you can only count on having one of them (the DRG obviously to apply it).

Let us look at NIN now. Trick Attack is a flat 10% buff for everyone for 10s on a 1min cooldown; that adds far more than Hungry Eyes, can theoretically be used more often and doesn't require a BFF. They also have that slash debuff (or did in 3.0, not sure if they still do but WAR does I believe as does SAM) which KEPT its 10% and applies to 5 classes (tanks, SAM and NIN) and you will always have 2 of them in content where said buff is relevant. They also still have Smokescreen and Shadewalker which are still great buffs for tanks or a DPS going wild.

In short, I see where the devs are coming from but disagree just from glancing at NIN's toolkit (someone who knows NIN better than me feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, this is from skimming job actions and from being around a few so I have little experience). This isn't even touching on the problem of LoTD either.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

They have a VERY loose definition of "greatly". BL, while great, is inherently random given the nature of crits and the fact it is on a 3min cooldown. In current EX runs, you usually get 2 good uses out of it; that is hardly a huge difference.

Hungry Eyes (or Dragon Sight) is a 2min cooldown I think? And 10% for us/5% for our tether buddy IF they're right up on us for like 10s. Given a baseline of 3k DPS, that's only an extra 3000/1500 damage. It is something, but not make-or-break.

Gonna edit to add more.

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I've seen greatly and hugely depending on the translation.

JP drgs are losing their shit and even asking if they play tested the class.

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

JP drgs are losing their shit and even asking if they play tested the class.

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I'm sure they did, against a targeting dummy with a stationary friendly target for sight.

It's been said repeatedly: Separate BotD and Eyes. It's the main thing that needs to change. Nevermind dps. I find myself getting frustrated with my party for not pulling fast enough. It's not fun, and it's not something the game should be forcing. I don't know that we need LotD to happen faster if we can just carry the eyes more easily. A small potency buff wouldn't go amiss though.

Geirskogul is slow. Trying to optimize my time for LotD means I skip a Geirskogul, and I have to hold on to the ability for 20 seconds or more.

A small increase to our AoE rotation's width would be appreciated. A lot of targets that feel like they should get hit take no damage. It makes the abilities not worth using, even when you have no other AoE's to use.

Eyes aside, I enjoy my 70 DRG. BotD is easy to maintain, the damage output feels good. I like having plenty of oGCD attacks to work with. But the eyes, and the frustration towards the game and other players, makes 70 play annoying. Fix it.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

No changes for us at all.

Meanwhile Ninja gets buffed.

#feelsdrgman

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It's a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It's a nerf.

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It is, but I don't see it drastically changing damage one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It's a nerf.

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You're right, patch notes had a typo I guess.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

You're right, patch notes had a typo I guess.

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It really is. If you look at the bottom of the page (Resolved issue part) it stated that Bhavacakra damage was changed from Physical to Magical, which means that it isn't affected by 20% damage buff from Dripping blade trait anymore, reducing its effective potency from 660 to 600.

True.

10/chars

was hoping at least they would give us more skill speed on our gear. 6 out of 7 left side pieces with ss isn't getting it done, we still have some crit left

The sky is falling? Can we panic? I mean yeah it's not like we can't function but to be told, fuck you SAM best deal with you're shitty utility, makes me want to take a sledgehammer to the guy's knees. I'm fine with being lower if we provided good utility. We don't. Not in the slightest. Our dps is low for how complex and effort needed the rotation is. Either buff our dps, give us some real utility or simplify the rotation since dps is lower.

Really shouldn't be this hard to balance. Also should haven't havea utility vs solo damage setup. Everyone gives some minor group utility. Dps numbers are balanced. Be good you do best dps. not here's a new class that's easy to play and does 10-20% more than everyone else.

Honestly I can't expect we'll get anything after that little quip that DRG provides great utility.

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Originally Posted by Sparhwk

Honestly I can't expect we'll get anything after that little quip that DRG provides great utility.

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That's the part I'm worried about. Seeing our RDM's numbers in runs while I'm juggling LoTD, HT and herding a DPS for Hungry Eyes to try and compete makes me go "...I love you DRG but holy hell you're a pain".

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Originally Posted by Sparhwk

Really shouldn't be this hard to balance. Also should haven't havea utility vs solo damage setup. Everyone gives some minor group utility. Dps numbers are balanced. Be good you do best dps. not here's a new class that's easy to play and does 10-20% more than everyone else.

Honestly I can't expect we'll get anything after that little quip that DRG provides great utility.

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It's even not really true to say SAM has no 'utility'. They have the slashing debuff, which not only is greater than the DRG piercing one, it is guaranteed to affect another party member since all 3 tanks do some kind of slashing damage (and you won't necessarily have a WAR or NIN in group to provide it as well), while you can easily get a group where the DRG is the only source of piercing damage.

Also, people misread damage 'utility' as a good thing. If it's a damage buff, it's designed as a synergy, but if the synergistic parts together don't exceed that of non synergistic parts, then there's no point as non synergistic parts are more resilient in the abstract since losses are linear.

If the 'utilities' are referred to as dependencies (as they are), people will think differently about it.

And no ability demonstrates the dependency concept (which is true of all damage 'utility') of this better than Dragon Sight and it's visual, visceral graphic.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

IAnd no ability demonstrates the dependency concept (which is true of all damage 'utility') of this better than Dragon Sight and it's visual, visceral graphic.

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Yeah I hate Dragon Sight with a passion. Let's have a melee class that needs to weave back and forth while jumping a freaking 6y tether. Meanwhile MNK's brotherhood is 15y and can proc from tanks if no other melee. And RDM embolden is 15y aoe as well. Both more than twice the radius of Dragon sight.

Should of been a trait that buffed BL imo. Lowered CD to 160 so it lines up with every other BFB and gave a flat damage boost. CAuse right now it's not putting out much when crit values are so low. And it's synergy is only good for BRD who procs on crits but a look a their omega gear shows they lost a bunch of crit.

What are we providing for the group exactly that warrants lower dps for more effort?

I’ve mained LNC/DRG for as long as I’ve played this game, but at 70 I can say really don’t like playing DRG now. I don’t find the rotation difficult, but the job mechanics along with fight mechanics render it punishing with very little payoff. Even with parties consisting of players I know well, I’m perpetually annoyed when I play Stormblood’s Dragoon.

Dragon Sight – It’s clunky to use and feels like an afterthought to the class. With a 6 yalm range it’s too subject to mechanics. If we don’t have another melee, odds are it’s going to either the tank or a holying WHM. If it’s on the tank and it’s a larger boss, it’s not going to work out with positional attacks/cleaves. Nevermind the actual fight mechanics that separate DPS at times. I can't think of other DPS buffs that are dependent on others. And while this will change with enough time, I’ve also lost count of the amount of times a Samurai has ran from the Dragon Sight tether, because nearly all tethers in this game are harmful.

Mirage Dive – I was thrilled when the Jump animation lock was reduced yet again, but then I learned Mirage Dive and was saddened by how bad the lock on a new skill was. I do like having more GCD skills to weave in, as that was part of why I loved DRG in the first place.

Dragon Eyes/LotD - Eyes take way too long to build, and this is most apparent in dungeons. Falling off in between pulls with a slow tank, or during a long sprint for larger pulls. Then there’s fights like Kugane Castle’s final boss that goes invulnerable very early into the fight, or long phase transitions like the Royal Menagerie, where other jobs like Samurai can meditate for kenki (which doesn’t deteriorate at all.) Maybe if we had a way to gain all 4 eyes in a cooldown(what Dragon Sight should have been probably), they didn’t fall off, or they built more quickly. The eyes not decaying seems the most likely outcome though.

Nastrond – The 70 skill is just a faster, stronger, prettier version of our 60 skill. Not terribly exciting, especially with how long it takes to actually use. What’s still confusing is having this 320 potency AoE as the reward for focusing on single target at the expense of our main AoE skills.

They have spoken loud and clear with a failure to adjust this class, so I will be leveling another dps class as soon as I can.

Goodbye for now Dragoon, you were awesome for 2.0 and 3.0 but there's no place for you in 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Thandronen

They have spoken loud and clear with a failure to adjust this class, so I will be leveling another dps class as soon as I can.

Goodbye for now Dragoon, you were awesome for 2.0 and 3.0 but there's no place for you in 4.0.

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I myself am going to see what 4.05 brings us as that will be when the big changes hit and we'll truly see what will happen. Given this is an early issue, if Savage truly highlights any issues I'd be willing to gamble on the devs going "...fine, we messed up".

Welp, that's the job shelved until 4.05 at the minimum.

To be told "Sam is DPS, you are utility. You bard with spear now" is absolutely not how I think most of us were expecting a first official comment on it to go.

Especially when the evidence suggests BRD is now better at both. haha

To add insult, they gave us more SS gear on top of our SS gear. Dropping the class after 3 good years if they don't fix it on savage release. I'd like to meet the idiots that handle itemization of gear because I have a few choice words for them.

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Originally Posted by Ralen

Welp, that's the job shelved until 4.05 at the minimum.

To be told "Sam is DPS, you are utility. You bard with spear now" is absolutely not how I think most of us were expecting a first official comment on it to go.

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Yeah, no one plays a DRG to be a support/utility class.
Really, I don't care that DRG is not top DPS, but DRG is right now at the bottom with classes that do a much better job at utility.

It's not so hot, not so hot at all.

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Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

Yeah, no one plays a DRG to be a support/utility class.

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Very true. If I want to play utility I would have mained NIN or BRD already =*= Who would expect a spear to deal such a low dmg.

Why the hell do they have to change DRG concept? Do they want all of us to change to SAM or sth? But I don't like them all that much. This is sad and... idk what I should play anymore. >.>

Keeping eye from degrading and taking some of the skill speed off our gear would be a nice cautious change. Do that then see where we fall, that will hardly shoot is to the top and would make our mechanic (which degrades and has no gains from ae unlike most other classes) more enjoyable. Changes to mirage animation and Dragon sight range are more quality of life.

Deltaverse 2.0 and 3.0 are really great fights for maintaining LoTD and tax all DPS evenly!

I feel like the DPS ranking should be like SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN.

Just because DRG has less utility than NIN but more utility than MNK.

But right now DRG has less dps & utility than NIN. Just not right.

First time poster, been playing DRG for a while and here are some suggestions I think would fix a lot of the DRG issues:

1. LotD management needs revision. I suggest having dragonfire drive provide dive ready also and would be willing to have mirage dive nerfed to 175 just to balance out the initial opening burst. This way it is easier to enter LotD closer to opener.

2. The eyes need to be permanent as well as the Dragon gauge. Here is how I would suggest you lose eyes:

-Lose 1 eye when BotD drops instead of all eyes. This way you want to be careful with your BotD management but the penalty is not to severe.
-Lose all eyes when you die.
-Lose all eyes when entering a new raid, trial or dungeon or exiting it.
-Lose all eyes by spending them on LotD.

This eye management is not OP because you need to use and plan your expenditure constantly and consistently. If you hold them you are losing new potential eyes and DPS in the process.

3. I would make Geirskogul and Nastrond AoE work like in PvP. With higher damage to the first target and having diminishing returns on the other ones. I would streamline it to 250 and 350 respectively. They should not be our primary AoE tools and get very rarely used that way.

4. Talking of AoE rotation, the 5 second added time to BotD from the Sonic Thrust combo is an awesome idea. I should not be penalized in my BotD management because I want to switch to my AoE combo. In fact, I would gate Sonic Thrust behind BotD the same way that Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust are.

5. In regards to Dragon Sight. I understand that the short range is meant to be used with melee DPSes but the payload feels weak for the amount of mobility management that requires. I would buff the Right and Left eye to 15% and 8% respectively. I mean it is still gated under a 120 sec cooldown.

6. And this is just to add to the cool factor. It would be awesome in my opinion to have mirage dive and the dragon sight animation change color depending on if you are on BotD or LotD. So have mirage dive be red when done on LotD and have the dragon sight tether and animation be blue when not on LotD cause blood dragon right? :P

Anyways, hopefully someone is listening and can test these.
For the rest of us please discuss 

I'm a bit displeased with Yoshida thoughts about Dragoon , Just because we have utility for raid to buff all that we have to be the lowest of the melee. Because he had decided to shaft us for the 4 Eyes that fall off when
botd ends , Nastrond build it up too long. I already leveled my Samurai to 70 and seriously didn't want to. All I got to say to the Dev team try playing DRG and having your team DPS meter you , then you might know how I feel when I get laughed at for having the lowest score. Thanks for nothing.

Lol if your going to kill drg like they did in 11 at least give us a wyvren. =P

Samurai are actually from the interdimensional rift, from the world of FFXI where they ruled for 10 years. Omega created them based on patch notes and the lack of nerfs and the Hasso/Seigan era.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

Lol if your going to kill drg like they did in 11 at least give us a wyvren. =P

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They do that to fix this game i will uninstall it and pretend all of it never happened.

Honestly if my choices are to be a melee bard or have my wyvern back and be the opposite of SMN with the focus on me instead I'll take that choice.

I was kidding, although if LotD summoned the FF11 wyvern that used a breath attack instead nostrad....that would have been more visually satisfying than the re-skins we have now. I was just commenting on the fall of drg and the rise of loldrg from 11.

Ran through Omega yesterday and cleared all 4 in the span of like 90 minutes due to good queue times as many others were doing it at that time as well....

Surprisingly, I was able to keep BotD up most of the time even while mechanics happened which prevent you from attacking for a period of time. I had some good groups, we only wiped once in Catastrophe (understandable), got some commendations and honestly felt really good about my performance overall. I'm sure this feeling will change once Savage hits and I really start to feel my lack of DPS overall but I think I'm going to wait until then to decide if I'm benching the job or not.

Managed to get the awesome Head piece which you should be able to see in my headshot here! :)

DRG seemed terrible on paper to me when it was announced. People seemed pretty unconcerned and I wanted to give it a fair shake since it's always been my main so I kept on with it. Recently got to 70 and so far have had a fairly miserable time. Dungeons aren't fun--AoE is garbage and doesn't interact with the job mechanic at all. Some fights by design just aren't going to be fun based on our mechanic's interaction with downtime. The ones that are fun probably aren't going to be enough to make me want to keep playing the job. I don't care about how well I do versus other jobs, but I do care that DRG just isn't fun. Overly reliant on memorizing the downtime rather than perfecting personal performance. Overly punished for mistakes. Overly pain in the ass to use Dragon Sight which is supposed to be part of the utility that justifies my numbers being garbage. I'll still do everything available with DRG but I'm likely moving it down from my MAIN main.

Yeah, when I signed up for drg I was a frontline fighter. Now I'm a mele support (brd/mch). If they wanted a mele support why didn't they just add dancer, geomancer, ditch digger, whatever. It's like when they changed brds into casters. I really don't understand the dev's mindset.