30 Minute Lockout for Leaving Roulette's isn't Working as Intended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Settiesama

If they were to lock dungeons so that you keep getting the same one, then they better remove Aetherochemical from 60 roulette

---

Funny, considering old threads that asked "Why is Aetherochemical facility not in the lvl 60 roulette ? Please add it"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I really don't get the hatred for Aetherochemical

---

Simple : It's not the most efficient way of farming tomes when using the level 60 roulette. And since, obviously, the only fun there is is to be the most efficient when progressing, nobody can ever like this dungeon and be happy that it's finally in a roulette...
Obvious sarcasm is obvious

And when you think of it, people rage that we have only two dungeons in the expert roulette, but if one of them was clearly faster than the others, I'm pretty sure they'd ask the other to be removed if they could...

The forums make up not even 5% of the playerbase, and many have raged over the addition of Aethero to the 60 roulette when it should be in Story roulette if any. The dungeon may be about the same length as the others, but the chance of getting into a run that takes far, far longer is more than likely, especially when you go in for quick tomes from something like Neverreap, and end up with people in Aethero who make it last far longer than the rewards are worth. This ignores the fact the dungeon itself was voted to be one of the most boring dungeons in the game by quite a few polls, losing only to the likes of Toto-rak and normal Tam-Tara.

People want more diversity in the expert dungeons, of which are similar lengths. If one is fun/interesting settings and fights then it won't matter being slightly longer.

Edit: The thread has swayed from it's original intend, and they already said they basically won't change it because they discussed what we have now is the best punishment. Changing anything about it will only cause more people to fake d/c and refusal to do anything until kicked. Changing rules on d/c and kicking makes it unfair to the innocent and promotes more kicks because trolls want to push punishment on people. Locking people to a dungeon would slow up roulettes, and create more lack of motivation, making runs far slower because people feel forced into where they don't want to be. This thread should be over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

If a tank isn't keeping threat and getting their ass kicked much harder than they need to be, they are failing at their main role: to tank.

If a DPS is killing so slowly that it's causing problems for the run in the sort of ways you say, they are failing at their main role: to do damage.

Hint: this is different from the previous two examples. If you still don't get why, read it carefully.

---

If you honestly believe the other two are failing for doing the bare minimum of their job and give a free pass to healers doing the same, you are a hypocrite and part of the problem, not the solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Lacking a member is always a hindrance, but there is a big difference between someone quiting and someone doing poorly. If your tank or your healer is not fulfilling your expectation, the it's your choice if you want to kick them. If, after that, you have to wait 10-15 minutes for a replacement, it's the party's fault.
Often, you can still go faster with a basic tanking, than waiting 15 minutes to be able to kick them, then waiting for a replacement, and then ending with a proper to finish the dungeon quickly.
Remember that the main issue is the Duty Roulette, and that there is absolutely no Duty in there that requires a great amount of skill. As a tank, it's perfectly doable to survive pretty much anything without using a single cooldown, even if it's a blatant lack of skill.

---

Yes the main issue is Duty roulette and one of the reasons as to why people leave. I wasn't talking skill, I was talking about players meeting the basic roles of their jobs. When they don't, that's why someone will leave or a player will be kicked. In a 4 man party, If nobody is using their cooldowns, there will more than likely be wipes / an abandon / or a player kick. That's a fact.

Sure most dungeons give you 90 minutes to complete them, but who wants to spend an hour and half in a dungeon that can be done in 15-20 minutes just because the other 3 members of your party are "at best" smashing their face into their keyboard to play? Screw, that. I can leave, take 30 minutes off to do something else, queue back up and get a party that can get through in 15-20 minutes.

penalty is fine

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorander

Sure most dungeons give you 90 minutes to complete them, but who wants to spend an hour and half in a dungeon that can be done in 15-20 minutes just because the other 3 members of your party are "at best" smashing their face into their keyboard to play? Screw, that. I can leave, take 30 minutes off to do something else, queue back up and get a party that can get through in 15-20 minutes.

---

You'd be surprised how often you could spend 5 minutes teaching other so that your run will go from one hour and a half to 30 minutes.
Sure, it's still not the fastest run you'll have, but this person you just taught had suddenly improved, and will maybe be able to teach other in the same way...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I really don't get the hatred for Aetherochemical, its really not that bad, I've done it several times now and I've yet to find it taking longer than the other dungeons in the game and its not exactly a difficult dungeon either.

---

Me either. A solid group can burn that place to the ground in under 15 minutes. A more typical run is 18-20, which is about the same as a run of any of the other level 60 dungeons in a decent-but-not-great party. Yes there's a lot of trash and you're gear synced to i180, but it's all super squishy, comes in huge packs that you can aoe the hell out of, and the dungeon is balanced for people going in there at i142. Some forum-goers get bent out of shape about there being no gear rewards, but probably about half the time the people I'm in roulettes with don't even roll on the gear. I mean, I take every bit of gear that I can get my grubby paws on so I can desynth it or feed it to my Grand Company so I don't argue when people pass. :3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

But probably about half the time the people I'm in roulettes with don't even roll on the gear.

---

This is probably one of my biggest pet peeves in any content with randomer's, when they don't roll on loot and let it time out. >__> Or say in like Void Ark and the pet or something drops, you'll have people who won't roll and hang around hoping everyone will leave so it defaults to them in case you get bored enough waiting for the roll timer to time out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korinth

This might to true in most games, however, in -this- one, it's laid out rather clearly even in the instructional level 15 content (The Hall of the Novice) that healers jobs are to keep the party alive -whilst- assisting in damage. It's not just something they should do if they feel like it. It's part of their job.

---

The Hall of the Novice also instructs DPS to not stand in aes.

Avoiding aes is not their primary role. The ones who don't (because it's the healer's job to keep them alive) are the equivalent of healers who don't dps (because dps in the dps's job).

Quote:

---

If you honestly believe the other two are failing for doing the bare minimum of their job and give a free pass to healers doing the same, you are a hypocrite and part of the problem, not the solution.

---

You're making up a problem where none exists. That isn't my problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

You're making up a problem where none exists. That isn't my problem.

---

Neither is dodging AoEs when I dps, or using defensive cooldowns when I tank. That isn't my problem either. Your acceptance of it, is the problem whether you like it or not.

Quote:

---

Neither is dodging AoEs when I dps, or using defensive cooldowns when I tank. That isn't my problem either. Your acceptance of it, is the problem whether you like it or not.

---

Nope, but keep on trying to flail around and justify your argument, it's pretty funny :rolleyes:

Dodging AoEs is expected of everybody, by the way, because you have a hard time fulfilling your role (whatever it is) when you're dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

Nope, but keep on trying to flail around and justify your argument, it's pretty funny :rolleyes:

Dodging AoEs is expected of everybody, by the way, because you have a hard time fulfilling your role (whatever it is) when you're dead.

---

Not flailing at all. I have willingly died multiple times just to make a point to a lazy healer, who insisted that they would 'only' heal. If I'm dead because they couldn't keep up with the incoming damage, it only makes it harder for them to complete the dungeon. Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Refuse, and I'll also make your job harder.

Still though, it's cute that you keep trying to defend you hypocrisy with deflection. :D

lol please implement this for 1 week so I can see how many people disconnect in dungeon or how long the queues become

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorander

Not flailing at all. I have willingly died multiple times just to make a point to a lazy healer, who insisted that they would 'only' heal. If I'm dead because they couldn't keep up with the incoming damage, it only makes it harder for them to complete the dungeon. Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Refuse, and I'll also make your job harder.

Still though, it's cute that you keep trying to defend you hypocrisy with deflection. :D

---

Thats the behaviour of of a petulant child. By the way if the party dies because of incoming damage and healer going oom i would look at the tank for pulling too much or at the dps for doing too little damage, not at the healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

Thats the behaviour of of a petulant child. By the way if the party dies because of incoming damage and healer going oom i would look at the tank for pulling too much or at the dps for doing too little damage, not at the healer.

---

Sometimes it takes a 'petulant child' to get a point across. Especially when someone is so stuck up their own butt, they can't see anything else. All I can say is deal with it or kick me. I really don't care at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorander

Not flailing at all. I have willingly died multiple times just to make a point to a lazy healer, who insisted that they would 'only' heal. If I'm dead because they couldn't keep up with the incoming damage, it only makes it harder for them to complete the dungeon. Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Refuse, and I'll also make your job harder.

Still though, it's cute that you keep trying to defend you hypocrisy with deflection. :D

---

If the healer can't keep you up when they're only healing, they'd have to be insane to even attempt to dps in a party with you.

I think players should get one free leave each day. If I do 60 roulette and end up at research facility, and the first pull takes upwards of 5 minutes because the healer and I (tank) are doing the majority of the DPS, then there's no way I'm staying for that; especially if upon further inspection, the actual DPS are geared beyond the ilvl sync and are just semi afk for the dungeon while they're likely tabbed out. I don't see why I should have to eat a 30 minute leave penalty for avoiding that very real waste of my game time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorander

I have willingly died multiple times just to make a point to a lazy healer, who insisted that they would 'only' heal. If I'm dead because they couldn't keep up with the incoming damage, it only makes it harder for them to complete the dungeon.

---

LOLgoon at its finest? I'd happily leave you dead on the floor. My mp's better spent dpsing instead of babying an MP sponge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

LOLgoon at its finest? I'd happily leave you dead on the floor. My mp's better spent dpsing instead of babying an MP sponge.

---

If you were dpsing, he'd be dodging is his point. If a healer is only healing, then they have times when they stand around doing nothing at all, maybe emoting or jumping around, or running off for the chest that could be opened later. Why not increase dps by giving them less down time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Settiesama

If you were dpsing, he'd be dodging is his point. If a healer is only healing, then they have times when they stand around doing nothing at all, maybe emoting or jumping around, or running off for the chest that could be opened later. Why not increase dps by giving them less down time?

---

I'm not gonna DPS right off the bat until I have a decent grasp of the group, especially with a dragoon in there. Course, once the DRG dies, Ihave no qualms DPSing instead!

This is why I miss being able to do really big pulls. Get enough mobs that the healer won't have time to dps anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

not even a world class healer can turn a 30minute run into a 20 minute one,

---

Yes a good healer can exactly that, I did a lost city hard today with two black mages who only did 800 and 1000 dps each including aoe for the duration of the dungeon into a sub 17 minute run by finishing at over 1100 as the healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeColon

Yes a good healer can exactly that, I did a lost city hard today with two black mages who only did 800 and 1000 dps each including aoe for the duration of the dungeon into a sub 17 minute run by finishing at over 1100 as the healer.

---

yeah, no

[10char]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Dorander's solution: Passive-aggressively play in a sucky manner until someone asks why, and then explain.

Obviously sane solution: Explain up front.

Takes a very... unique mindset to choose the first option over the second...

---

This is the internet where you're encouraged to be special.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

This is the internet where you're encouraged to be special.

---

Forums are full of people who love to stir the pot. I've yet in all my time playing this game to encounter anyone like this. I know personally when i tank or heal I will do so in a manner that makes me feel comfortable and will not cater to the desires of some random. If anything types like this would be a good reason for people to up and elect to quit a dungeon for which this thread is actually about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NailBach

only that you can't make a dungeon run miserable for me. And you know why? It's a game and i don't care.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NailBach

yeah, no
[10char]

---

I bet you are one of those types, who as a ninja or a blm (your highest jobs, I looked) probably barely break 600 dps. People like you are the first to say "It's just a game." Being absolutely terrible at playing and equally lazy to look anything up, "It's just a game! I'll do what I want!" You'll get bored soon and jump back over to WoW when legion drops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

Not surprised in the least that you would do something that childish, repeatedly.
I don't think the point you're getting across is the point you're trying to get across.

---

It's working so far. As I said, they either start dps'ing and the run get's better or it get's much worse before someone leaves, be it myself or them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Dorander's solution: Passive-aggressively play in a sucky manner until someone asks why, and then explain.
Obviously sane solution: Explain up front.
Takes a very... unique mindset to choose the first option over the second...

---

Yeah, a mindset that is tired of carrying lazy players. What works for you: AKA - being a handholder, doesn't work for everyone else.

So in the end, I'll take that 30 minute leave penalty without any hesitation if the party I'm with are complete facerollers. Sorrynotsorry if that inconveniences you, hopefully the next person who fills my spot either pushes you to do better, or just doesn't care enough and carries you.

But if you're so tired of "lazy players", why are you being lazy yourself in not running content with friends only?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

But if you're so tired of "lazy players", why are you being lazy yourself in not running content with friends only?

---

Maybe it's the same reason that the people who created this thread don't only run with their friends. DF is convenient when my/their friends aren't available, when I/they want or need to do something. I mean, they wouldn't have to worry about people dropping out and inconveniencing them, and therefore wanting the 30 minute penalty increased for such an offense, if they only ran dungeons with their friends. Did that answer your question, or where you just being facetious?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NailBach

yeah, no

[10char]

---

Yeah, no, what? I hardly post on this forums so I don't care if I get banned from here, have this to see for yourself.

http://imgur.com/w1kFvVq

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daisy

This is why I miss being able to do really big pulls. Get enough mobs that the healer won't have time to dps anyways.

---

A White Mage can give the tank the equivalent of 8 seconds of Hallowed Ground with Holy stuns and has Tetragrammaton and Benediction, a Scholar has a second healer with them even in a 4 man party and has Lustrates, and an Astrologian has a single aoe stun plus three regens and Essential Dignity, there is always time to dps.~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeColon

Yes a good healer can exactly that, I did a lost city hard today with two black mages who only did 800 and 1000 dps each including aoe for the duration of the dungeon into a sub 17 minute run by finishing at over 1100 as the healer.

---

In order to increase the dps of a party by 50%, the healer would need to be doing 50% more than the other three players combined. With 800 and 1000 on the dps (1800dps total, so half is 900dps), if you were at 1100, then the tank was doing 400?

Edit: Ah, actual data. So let's see...

If you hadn't dpsed at all, then the run would have taken a little under 24 minutes. Not quite as sharp a decrease as the 30/20 example given, but 24/17 isn't too bad.

Just yesterday, I was put on a DD group and I make two big pulls to the crystals. I notice the drg in our group is only using heavy thrust on a 12+ pack of mobs. Not the heavy thrust and aoe combo, ONLY heavy thrust.
I call him on it and he says he's eating, plus all other skills take longer to recharge (his words). He then says I am the only one complaining
Am I expected to put up with that through the whole dungeon? And you want to punish me with a 3 hour ban?
Please.

Just curious, but what would you tell a healer that starts DPSing when you die and doesn't rez you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Just curious, but what would you tell a healer that starts DPSing when you die and doesn't rez you?

---

Then I release and run back. At least they started dps'ing. I wouldn't say a thing. If they only dps'ed when I was dead.. then I'd try to stay dead as much as possible. ;)

This is just a lost cause at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

This is just a lost cause at this point.

---

You think?

Was there ever a cause to begin with..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Just curious, but what would you tell a healer that starts DPSing when you die and doesn't rez you?

---

I do that, I will never raise someone in a dungeon unless it's during a locked boss fight because the runs are so short having weakness isn't worth it, return, take the shortcut, i'll give you protect again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeColon

Yes a good healer can exactly that, I did a lost city hard today with two black mages who only did 800 and 1000 dps each including aoe for the duration of the dungeon into a sub 17 minute run by finishing at over 1100 as the healer.

---

Yup. People really, REALLY underestimate how much power a healer has if they are able to balance DPSing and healing efficiently. White Mage is probably the easiest class to learn how to DPS as a healer in short bursts, because a Divine Seal-powered Regen + Asylum along with Holy spam basically makes the tank invincible for 10 seconds even against large packs of mobs. If something goes wrong, you have two emergency heals to fall back on. However, we can't really sustain the DPS because Holy eats insane amount of MP and Assize/Shroud of Saints don't recover enough of it. Shroud of Saints especially is pretty much ALWAYS used as soon as possible if I'm below 75% max MP, knowing I won't go back up to 100% by the time the buff expires anyway.

On average, my EX roulettes as WHM are usually in the 18-22 minute range, though I've had really good parties able to clear Antitower in 16-17 minutes. I'm not even talking about pre-formed parties either, I queue solo 95% of the time. People just really don't understand exactly how much power we have unless they try doing it for themselves. And I say this as someone who barely started the game last August. It took a lot of slow progress and perhaps trial and error to get comfortable with the idea of DPSing as a healer, I didn't really start trying to stance dance at all until 3.1 hit. But once you master it - everyone will notice. Leaving your old comfort zone sometimes comes with huge rewards - and perhaps the establishment of a new one.

Although having good judgment is essential as well. If a tank isn't popping their cooldowns or DPS are standing in stupid, swallow your pride and keep them up. Letting them die is counter-productive time-wise, even if you want to make a statement (that will probably fly over their heads anyway). For all we know, they're just having a bad day. And it IS our job, after all.

i like you, you are funny, but so are most elitists

This thread has.. derailed..? In response to the OP though, I know it was just an example but 3 hours is very sadistic.. 30 mins is enough, like really, can we not change this? It was already changed in 2.x there is no reason to change it again, if we had such an absurd penalty... well just expect people to be even bigger jerks in instances because the 'casual' player base changed such a stupid thing. If I'm top DPS in a dungeon as a PALADIN.. I'm out and will wait the 30 mins doing something else and re queue hoping to get a better group. Just my opinion :D