The Mentoring Requirements... *Rant Style*

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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You're scenario makes sense except it is completely irrelevant to mentoring as those people are only exposed to the basic fundamentals shown to them with in the first 40hrs.

:)


and the dungeons lv15-29 barely have mechanics to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

No one stops you from mentoring without the system. All you yell all the time is "I want to be an official mentor and the requirements suck cause i don't met them!". There is no lockout from the activity it is a lockout from an optional system which makes it easier.
You have to study if you want to be a teacher.

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But I'm not able to be apart of this system, how hard is that too understand? Even though I do exactly what this system promotes already. But guess what? I'll be locked out of achievements and titles when they come out because of a gaming preference. And again for the 5th time this mentoring system IS BUILT ON BASICS and you only have 40 hours to mentor said new player. New players aren't going to need to know what dungeons past 50 require BECAUSE THEY WON'T GET TO THAT POINT so one last time, because you only get 40 hours to help someone in this system THERE IS NO POINT TO MAKE THE REQUIREMENT OF ALL 3 CLASSES AT 60.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You obviously didn't read because as I stated being a level 60 isn't the reason why I think this system is going to fail. It's the fact that a player who doesn't have all the 3 areas at 60 CAN be more knowledgeable on the basics of this game such as editing the hotbar in the settings, text customizations, display customizations and even overall helpfulness. Not one of those things I just listed is granted to you by level 60 and not everyone at level 60 even knows about some of those features, such as the extended crossbar function for the ps4. But you and everyone who thinks having a level 60 in all three categories means you're the most knowledgeable about the basics of this game just go ahead and keep thinking that.

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and I, meeting the requirements, also know about those things, so again, you're not proving anything at all here.

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Originally Posted by Ehr

Should've worded it better, but I couldn't think of anything else. My word-choice has never been very good. I basically just meant players that aren't interested in helping and are only after rewards. Also this interview states that there are achievements tied to the mentor roulette, it's the third question. I really don't think it should have rewards either though, someone should be a mentor simply because they want to be one and to help newer players, they shouldn't need some title or achievement. But that's just my opinion.

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I completely agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

What he's trying to say is what I've been trying to say before. The mentoring requirements are built around the Heavensward world rather than the A Realm Reborn world which makes the requirements bad.

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(that's because endgame currently exists at Heavensward)

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Originally Posted by Toguro

You're scenario makes sense except it is completely irrelevant to mentoring as those people are only exposed to the basic fundamentals shown to them with in the first 40hrs..

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It's not irrelevant at all. Let me quote myself in a post I directed at you earlier in order to avoid redundancy:

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Originally Posted by Odett

@Toguro
I definitely agree that 40 hours is too short for a player to be considered a newbie, but think of that mentor period more as an icebreaker. After they're no longer newbies, you can add them to your friends list, or make a linkshell if the player would like further guidance into the game.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

If you were a lv50 Tank, DPS, and Healer for 2 years or since 2.x release, what more have you learned about fundamentals to teach newbies as 60? Only 5 (easy)dungeons from 51-59 and 5 abilities that in no way effect basic fundamentals..

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and these are things that you would never state had you leveled a tank to 60. Due to the massive amounts of HP that WARs are able to regenerate through Bloodbath+IR+Berserk in their offensive stance, as well as PLD getting two combos on their way to 60, the tanking fundamentals radically change from "keep agro" to one that rewards utility combos and aggressive play (something you can't do as a PLD at 50), but again, you neither know or can provide insight on these things because you somehow think that having a level 30 Marauder means you know how to tank.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

But I'm not able to be apart of this system, how hard is that too understand?

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Nothing is stopping you except yourself from meeting the requirements.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

THERE IS NO POINT TO MAKE THE REQUIREMENT OF ALL 3 CLASSES AT 60.

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and repeating the same thing over and over won't make you correct either

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

But guess what? I'll be locked out of achievements and titles when they come out because of a gaming preference

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If your intentions are selfish, then it's probably best you don't become a mentor in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Odett

...and these are things that you would never state had you leveled a tank to 60. Due to the massive amounts of HP that WARs are able to regenerate through Bloodbath+IR+Berserk in their offensive stance, as well as PLD getting two combos on their way to 60, the tanking fundamentals radically change from "keep agro" to one that rewards utility combos and aggressive play (something you can't do as a PLD at 50), but again, you neither know or can provide insight on these things because you somehow think that having a level 30 Marauder means you know how to tank.

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Please tell me how any of that comes into play in the first 40 hours of gameplay.

(Please note that some of what you say, I agree with. It seems some people on this thread have misunderstood my first post, but that's alright. I believe that many people who are holding to extremes in this debate are missing valid points on both sides. Normally I would say in specific arguments, one side does tend to hold closer to accuracy, but in this I'm realizing that many aspects being brought forth on both accounts are valid. I'm calling out this point just in case something is being missed, for though many things you've said are true, I believe you might be making this specific point simply to counter an argument of the opposing side without realizing something...so please, I would like to know whether that is the case or if it is myself that is missing something.)

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

Please tell me how any of that comes into play in the first 40 hours of gameplay.

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Can I quote myself for the second time?

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Originally Posted by Odett

@Toguro
I definitely agree that 40 hours is too short for a player to be considered a newbie, but think of that mentor period more as an icebreaker. After they're no longer newbies, you can add them to your friends list, or make a linkshell if the player would like further guidance into the game.

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there you go

I also explained in earlier posts why having a tank at lv 30 gives you an extremely vague idea of what tanking is like, and does not make you fit for answering more technical questions provided by a pupil beyond what you know very little of. I can't be the only person that when choosing a class in an MMO, goes on youtube to see what it looks like at endgame.

You didn't answer me.

I will try again...How do any of the mechanics brought forth in HW endgame come into play in the first 40 hours of gameplay? Adding people to friends list and linkshell will occur regardless of the mentor system...so why should these mechanics matter for a mentor, specifically?

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

You didn't answer me.

I will try again...How do any of the mechanics brought forth in HW endgame come into play in the first 40 hours of gameplay? Adding people to friends list and linkshell will occur regardless of the mentor system...so why should these mechanics matter for a mentor, specifically?

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To be completely and objectively fair, I mean, a new player could ask questions regarding that particular subject. Especially if they're a new player with an MMO background. That's an extremely skewed case, most likely, but plausible nonetheless.

Honestly, though, you have to consider the metrics that they were capable of gauging. With the excessive nerfing of the experience required to get to level 50 in the first place, it is fair to say that someone could do it in a relatively short amount of time. There was a post of a guy with a sprout who had "The Final Witness" title, which means not only did he get to level 50, he got carried trough Coil in under 40 hours. Crazy, yes, but it happened. They probably have an excessive amount of data that they went off of in order to set these standard requirements. I doubt they just arbitrarily threw darts at a wheel and said how many classes to 60....it landed on three, so three!

They generally have a plan, however odd it may seem to us.

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Originally Posted by Odett

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I said they don't effect ARR fundamentals. I think you misunderstood. I'm repeating myself. The basic fundamentals that you and multiple posters keep talking about but you're linking level 60 things or "above lv40" things. You're also making a huge assumption constantly saying I don't know much. I know paladins get Royal Authority combo that doesn't give enmity after Riot Blade at Lv60 and Goring Blade, Clemency blah blah blah. I know that Deliverance( 5% DMG increase, 10% Crit increase at 5 stacks) + IR + B4B + Decimate -> Overpower spam offers more HP overriding the HP Bonus, Healing recieved bonus, Parry bonus that Defiance gives, blah blah blah.

Who cares if the fundamentals change for Heavensward if those fundamentals don't help a new player. The radical change in fundamentals would help players new to Heavensward. That Marauder student wont be getting that DPS stance until lv52. If there was another mentoring it would help for that but there isn't.

A NEWB won't have Deliverance. A NEWB can need help for much much more about the early game than "Tanking fundamentals at 60". What about tanking fundamentals at Lv40?

I already posted I long list of those somewhere in this thread. All formed and learned within ARR dungeons.

Players learning about the radical change of tanking in Heavensward would be for a Lv50+ mentoring. Not for newb mentoring(Btw newbs probably won't even have Heavensward)

Tank swapping in Ifrit EX because you get 3 stacks or Provoking Oppressor 0.5 in Alex has nothing to do with teaching newbies how to tank in NEWBIE dungeons. That info is for a 50+ mentoring. When you know.. the game "truly begins" as they say? At 50? Where all the REAL tank, dpsing, and healing essentials come in.


I won't be telling a newbie Conjurer "Better make sure you know when to use that Benediction!" Or "Don't use Aero lll too much you'll run outta MP!!"

No what I would be telling them are things like this: I get a lv30 newbie- "In tight spots when the tank is taking too much damage to handle, try using your Presence Of Mind to get a nice spell speed boost." Don't use Cure ll exclusively"

Or, for fundamentals' sake: "Don't heal before the tank pulls the enemies or you will pull aggro, also healing actually gives half the amount of aggro as attacks but it still gives aggro, you can be attacked for it! So don't heal too much!"

etc etc

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

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As a true newbie to this game and MMOs, it took a month for me to get level 23. I remember getting killed by Lazy Laurence. Wish I had a mentor to tell me its 30x stronger than regular bosses...


:( I saw its hp go down from an attack and thought I could beat it..

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Originally Posted by Odett

ramblings

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1. You proved my point, by stating you meet the requirements of the mentor system and having the same knowledge on how to customize your set up. The same knowledge I have, as a player who doesn't meet the requirements.

2. The system is for basics not end game rotations, raids or fc recruiting or end game tactics. It's for basics.

3. You only have 40 hours to be apart of that linkshell you're not holding their hand up to HW so everything in 3.0 is irrelevant.

4. SE is tethering rewards to the system after the release. Please explain how it is selfish to want rewards for helping out when the company that is making the system is giving out rewards for that reason.

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

You didn't answer me.

I will try again...How do any of the mechanics brought forth in HW endgame come into play in the first 40 hours of gameplay? Adding people to friends list and linkshell will occur regardless of the mentor system...so why should these mechanics matter for a mentor, specifically?

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Because for the people that will use the mentor system for more than achievements, it's not far-fetched at all to imagine that they'll keep in contact with the people that they were mentoring. I am aware that it counts regardless, but having the mentor system will make it much easier for people seeking help to see who those willing to help are, so it's not outside the bounds of possibility that some of these players will ask questions about things that can happen outside their 40 hour green-leaf period. Being a lv 60 in every role will better suit the mentor in order to answer such questions.

Think of it like this, if you were designing a mentor system, would you make the requirements something that barely gives potential mentors the tools to get by and answer questions in very broad and vague terms, or make the requirements a little tougher in order to better improve the odds that a mentor can answer any question pertaining to a role? I am aware that being a level 60 in no way makes you an expert, but it's the minimum requirement for you to be an expert. I'm not sure I'm wording this as best as I can, so my apologies for that, but when you see a lv 60 player, there are 2 possibilities: they can either be really good at their job and be able to explain specific questions, or they can't, as opposed to seeing a lv 30 player, where the answer automatically becomes the latter.

Moreover, I mentioned in a previous post how it's very rare to see people who play all 3 roles have just one of each (one tank, one DPS, and one healer), and more often than not, (or every time, to be honest, I've yet to see a person who chose to play all 3 roles just have one of each at least 6 months after a level cap increase), making that a requirement greatly heightens the odds that a mentor can answer a more job-specific question, as people who have one of each role at 60 have higher odds of having other jobs at 60 as well.

What I'm trying to get at is that a lot of players are failing to see the mentor system, or rather, what might happen after the first 40 hours, and the development team more than likely saw that coming and decided to implement requirements that will make a mentor much more capable in helping others during their green leaf period, and after as well.

Then at that point they get to join a linkshell or FC with multiple people that probably have that same job to teach them exactly, in detail, what they need to know. No shame in multiple teachers pitching in to help one student. That'll be more productive.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

1. You proved my point, by stating you meet the requirements of the mentor system and having the same knowledge on how to customize your set up. The same knowledge I have, as a player who doesn't meet the requirements.

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Except, you know, I meet the requirements and you don't, so that's a pretty big difference. Your argument would only make sense if you were the only person that didn't meet the mentor requirements and knew of these things, and that's something you're repeatedly failing to grasp.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

2. The system is for basics not end game rotations, raids or fc recruiting or end game tactics. It's for basics.

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So if a newbie asks you how their role behaves at endgame, because some people want to see how their job plays at lv 60 to see if they like it or not, before spending time leveling something they'll later realize they're not going to like, how can you possibly answer from first-hand experience if you don't have a tank, DPS, and healer at 60? Oh, right, you can't.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

3. You only have 40 hours to be apart of that linkshell you're not holding their hand up to HW so everything in 3.0 is irrelevant.

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So you'll just stop talking to the people you helped after their 40 hour period, and they won't ask you questions as they continue the leveling process?

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

4. SE is tethering rewards to the system after the release. Please explain how it is selfish to want rewards for helping out when the company that is making the system is giving out rewards for that reason.

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A kind or selfless act is done out of the wanting of doing said act for another person, not because you expect a reward for it. You don't take someone out to dinner and then expect that they owe you something after, I mean, well, you can, but that would make you a crappy person.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Then at that point they get to join a linkshell or FC with multiple people that probably have that same job to teach them exactly, in detail, what they need to know. No shame in multiple teachers pitching in to help one student. That'll be more productive.

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Or the situation can be avoided in the first place by having that same person keep on teaching them. The fact that you said this shows a huge flaw in your argument and just how important it is to have each role at 60 as a mentor, because with the example you have yourself provided, you've reached your capabilities as a mentor, and could have kept helping them had you met the current requirements.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

As a true newbie to this game and MMOs, it took a month for me to get level 23. I remember getting killed by Lazy Laurence. Wish I had a mentor

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and it took me less than that, in 2.0 where main scenario quests gave half the experience they do now, when there was no challenge log to give you bonus experience, and there was no daily "leveling roulette", to hit 50. You can't base your experience around everyone else because others will either level much faster, or much slower than you did.

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Originally Posted by Odett

<last couple o' posts>

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Your point is well taken, Odett. None of what you said I disagree with. I have not been against the lvl 60 requirement, in fact I understand the same logic that you see in it's implementation. That being said, the notion that knowledge of endgame mechanics should be necessary for a mentor is simply not true. The idea that the mentor system will be a springboard for future in-game relationships is true, and precisely one of the problems many who are locked out of this system are having a problem with: they will be alienated to a degree at this point. Now, I agree, if someone wants to become a mentor, earn the requirements; I never said otherwise. Certain peoples playstyles, chosen playstyles, may bar them from that, and that's just how it is. I'm not okay with that, but I can't complain about it either, not really, because requirements are needed, and no matter what they are, someone will be locked out of it simply because of how they choose to play, it's unavoidable. What I AM trying to get at is that having the requirements be lvl 50 instead will still have a desired effect in rooting out those who don't understand the role-system: HW mechanics are not required for this. Yes, people might ask questions about current endgame content, but that isn't the purpose of the mentoring system - it's to learn the basics of the MMO genre and how they come into play in FFXIV. Should people who are fully capable of properly teaching such things, who have a desire to help people and have the skill and knowledge to back it up, not be able to do so simply because they haven't spent the money for an expansion?

Oh man... if you spend all these times working on the requirements you're lacking, you should've made everything ready before 3.2, but no, you just spent your time complaining and arguing with people on the forum.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

1. You proved my point, by stating you meet the requirements of the mentor system and having the same knowledge on how to customize your set up. The same knowledge I have, as a player who doesn't meet the requirements.

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Just go and level you're healer to meet the requirements, it's not really that hard to get to 60

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

2. The system is for basics not end game rotations, raids or fc recruiting or end game tactics. It's for basics.

3. You only have 40 hours to be apart of that linkshell you're not holding their hand up to HW so everything in 3.0 is irrelevant.

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Nothing stops you to help a newbie, even if you're not an 'official' mentor.

By making contact with those players, you will probably make friends, and thus you still could help them till HW and beyond (I already made a LS to invite those players in)

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

4. SE is tethering rewards to the system after the release. Please explain how it is selfish to want rewards for helping out when the company that is making the system is giving out rewards for that reason.

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The rewards are a bonus, but you should never do it for that, you become a mentor because you want to help the people, be it with or without reward

So, everyone here ranting about the reqirements seems to not see the whole picture.
Ther requirements are not only for the mentoring site, they are also for the roulette bound to the system.

1k dungeon clears means you have played a lot of time, so you should be experienced in the game.
300 commendations means you are not a complete jerk.

1 out of each role at 60 means multiple things:
- you should be done with leveling in havensward aka you are in the actual content
- you have a proven way to say "I know all the spectrums of the basics of the trinity and the game itself"
- speculation: The roulette will say which role you have to pick to join

It is just a level requirement like all other content in this game.

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

Your point is well taken, Odett. None of what you said I disagree with. I have not been against the lvl 60 requirement, in fact I understand the same logic that you see in it's implementation. That being said, the notion that knowledge of endgame mechanics should be necessary for a mentor is simply not true. The idea that the mentor system will be a springboard for future in-game relationships is true, and precisely one of the problems many who are locked out of this system are having a problem with: they will be alienated to a degree at this point. Now, I agree, if someone wants to become a mentor, earn the requirements; I never said otherwise. Certain peoples playstyles, chosen playstyles, may bar them from that, and that's just how it is. I'm not okay with that, but I can't complain about it either, not really, because requirements are needed, and no matter what they are, someone will be locked out of it simply because of how they choose to play, it's unavoidable. What I AM trying to get at is that having the requirements be lvl 50 instead will still have a desired effect in rooting out those who don't understand the role-system: HW mechanics are not required for this. Yes, people might ask questions about current endgame content, but that isn't the purpose of the mentoring system - it's to learn the basics of the MMO genre and how they come into play in FFXIV. Should people who are fully capable of properly teaching such things, who have a desire to help people and have the skill and knowledge to back it up, not be able to do so simply because they haven't spent the money for an expansion?

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I mostly agree with you. It's true that some players may experience some level of alienation from this, but it's not like they're banned either from being a mentor should they not meet the requirements from day one. I get that the main point of the mentor system is not to teach endgame, but that still won't stop new people from asking what their job in endgame will be like. Unfortunately, you do need to spend money for the expansion in order to answer such questions, and having a level 60 might make it possible that you'll be able to meet their question with an appropriate answer, whereas only getting to lv 50 will guarantee that your answer will be "I don't know". Again, it's better from a developer's standpoint to make requirements where it is possible for the mentor to answer as many questions as possible in regards to role performance, responsibilities, and toolkits, than to make requirements lax enough to guarantee that some of these questions will go unanswered.

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

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I agree I said exactly this repeatedly in this thread. That it would be way better to have it at 50.

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Originally Posted by Odett

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If they are asking about lv60 end-game content in something(which is absolutely possible), then maybe they need to go somewhere else for help? That's like you're in 1st Grade and you ask about college stuff. You're asking in the wrong place. And also, you're teacher may not know!

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Originally Posted by Odett

and it took me less than that, in 2.0 where main scenario quests gave half the experience they do now, when there was no challenge log to give you bonus experience, and there was no daily "leveling roulette", to hit 50. You can't base your experience around everyone else because others will either level much faster, or much slower than you did.

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I started in November 2014. I didn't know about any of the bonus experience, the importance of leveling roulette.. actually pretty much everything that had to do with getting more exp.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

I agree I said exactly this repeatedly in this thread. That it would be way better to have it at 50.

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The only way that Square can actively gauge the amount of time you put into the game with relative certainty is by assumptive minutes. Like, the amount of time it takes to complete a dungeon, the amount of time it takes to level to 60, the amount of time it takes to accrue the required commendations etc. They have all of these metrics. They couldn't base it off of play time, because the guy who logs in and sits in his tree house roleplaying an Ice Wizard could have logged 5000 hours.

It isn't an argument of whether the person at level 50 or level 60 know the same things, it is an argument of safe assumption that the player with the level 60 jobs has accrued more knowledge through playing longer. Whether that is a fact or not is irrelevant.

You keep beating this drum that you can know things without havng met these requirements. Sure you can. SE doesn't know that. They aren't going to administer some arbitrary field exam where you have to know which level what class learns Provoke (it's Gladiator level 22 I'm going to be such a good mentor).

You're on here begging to be validated for your knowledge in spite of the logical criteria that they are implementing, which honestly isn't even that exclusive. Just make a paper crown for yourself to wear until you earn the real one in game, and we're all good.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

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That assumption on their part would be worth more if it were applied to a Level 50+ Mentoring and Lv60 Mentoring system.

Not something as low and early as lv1-40 for example.

The level 50 life is a long one. There's the whole 2.55 story




I only say things like that when people keep using the thought of "See you don't know anything" to support their argument AGAINST me

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Originally Posted by Toguro

That assumption on their part would be worth more if it were applied to a Level 50+ Mentoring and Lv60 Mentoring system.

Not something as low and early as lv1-40 for example.

The level 50 life is a long one. There's the whole 2.55 story




I only say things like that when people keep using the thought of "See you don't know anything" to support their argument AGAINST me

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Not when the Heavensward content has been out for over 8 months and there is very little focus on doing any of the level 50 content. Level 50 is a bad metric. Sorry, it just is.

Now I do, however, agree that it'd be functional to extend the mentoring linkshell, except for the fact that then you're virtually segregating the community into even more pieces and literally fostering an elitist mentality by promoting a game-long training wheels program.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

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There is little focus on ARR content yet when players speed through Heavensward they go back to ARR and have to learn the life of level 50. Which is "skippable" but at the same time "unavoidable"..

As I said before there's the leveling life, level 50 life, and level 60 life. Its inescapable. The players will eventually go back to level 50 stuff. Heavensward is 8 months old but all the stuff is in ARR still.



Also, toxicity/elitism/<insertname>'s are found everywhere regardless of level

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/67805...eborn/73305269

Thread going on right now about a player being kicked from Sastasha for parsing low.

Getting 50 is like a new game. Getting 60? Not so much. Is what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Words

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1. Regardless of who meets the requirements we both share information that can help new players out. Also not every level 60 knows about showing health as a percent or extended cross bar functionality because they don't explain or show it in any text box, nor do they show how to bring up the virtual mouse on the ps4 or go into screenshot mode, I've helped many past and present fc members use these functions. A few of them being level 60 and not knowing how to properly fit all HW skills on their crossbar.

2. Again basic information in a basic information linkshell. It would be a bad mentoring job if I threw level 60 endgame knowledge down the mouth of a new player who has no idea where all the aetherytes are at in Limsa. I never stated I wouldn't show them, but rather focus on how the game plays at level 32 Brayflox Longstop verse the 28 levels later TEX, since you know TEX isn't relevant at level 32. While that information might be beneficial to some players it's still irrelevant for 28 more levels and has zero impact on the game until then. At this point players just got their jobs and shouldn't be worrying at all about content down the road but instead the mechanics of how to handle the boss of Brayflox.

3. Within 40 hours they will likely determine they don't like the game, get picked up by a fc, maybe even mine or join a linkshell. I never stated I wouldn't keep in contact with them. That is you using your own thoughts and deductions.

4. Except me teaching you how to play isn't selfless or kind. It's work, it's working on the betterment of myself as a player and for the betterment of the community. If SE thought of it like you then they wouldn't put rewards into the system to start with.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

There is little focus on ARR content yet when players speed through Heavensward they go back to ARR and have to learn the life of level 50. Which is "skippable" but at the same time "unavoidable"..

As I said before there's the leveling life, level 50 life, and level 60 life. Its inescapable. The players will eventually go back to level 50 stuff. Heavensward is 8 months old but all the stuff is in ARR still.



Also, toxicity/elitism/<insertname>'s are found everywhere regardless of level

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/67805...eborn/73305269

Thread going on right now about a player being kicked from Sastasha for parsing low.

Getting 50 is like a new game. Getting 60? Not so much. Is what I mean.

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Have you read that thread? It's hilarious. All that fuss over Sastasha and a 10 potency difference lol. I mean it's not like *start sarcasm* A DAMNED NINJA USING SINGLE TARGET DOTON OMG UNINSTALL THE GAME. *end sarcasm*

Just kidding.

Elitism exists. Biased elitism exists. Elitism elitism exists. It's annoying, and it sucks, and it makes me wish I had more than two hundred spaces on my Blacklist or that I could put an ad out in an Eorzean newspaper detailing why a certain person was such an a-hole. Unfortunately I can't do that, and if I could do that I'd be no better. Only thing I can do is try and make the game as pleasant for other players as I can. I ran Garuda Extreme twenty-eight times today, and I didn't even need a pony. Why? A guy in a linkshell asked me to. Now he has a sweet war panther mount and owes me 27 favors, but I just did it because he asked for help. Except they don't make threads about things like that, much like the news doesn't report all of the good in the world. The bad seems prevalent because it grabs our attention. I'm off on a tangent now.

Can we all just agree to wait and see whether this is a catastrophe or not until it's an actual thing? Who knows maybe the participation will be low and they'll lighten the requirements.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Have you read that thread? It's hilarious. All that fuss over Sastasha and a 10 potency difference lol. I mean it's not like A DAMNED NINJA USING SINGLE TARGET DOTON OMG UNINSTALL THE GAME.

Just kidding.

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your words are sarcasm right ? especially on this thread, tell is scarcams because I cant identify it as such wouldnt make a mistake, never know

Toguro, I get what you're implying, but there's a big disconnect in there somewhere.

It seems like you're saying that being max level as a requirement won't do much for a new player, or before they hit the milestone of 50. This is untrue. It's almost as if saying that the total sum of experience one should have at 60 would be of less value than what they have at 50 because of a new player's perspective. Yes, a newer player won't necessarily be tasked to have to mind certain skills/situations pre-50, at 50, and beyond that. But the road to those milestones is effectively structured to allow players more than enough room to grow into their roles and skills. There, is where each player is personally accountable. The guy who rushes to 50 is still going to have to learn the same things, but would now feel the pressure of expectation at 50 vs leveling. A mentor who has been through this perhaps, and learned the hard way would be of value if only to help teach what not to do.

Add to that, any effective coach or instructor knows how to gauge and meter what they teach. In instructing FC members on how to play MCH, I explained basics and some of the less clear things to them to start with. Never mentioned Wildfire until they got it. Or turrets. Or Hypercharge and the effects it has on turrets. Why? Because it would have done them no good at that point. You're right that a newer player won't take much from say, mastery of DRG rotation with Blood of the Dragon, or effective use of defensive cooldowns they wouldn't yet have, but this is almost like saying mentorship just ends at the 40 hour mark. It doesn't. At least it shouldn't. I said it elsewhere before, but even with my DRK and PLD at 60, and working on WAR finally, I still seek out the person whom I chose as my tanking mentor even now. Not because I'm bad, but because she's that good. What I couldn't figure out for myself, I would then ask her once it was relevant (i.e. I didn't ask anything about Dark Arts usage or the like until I had it). Again, this doesn't invalidate her knowledge as a mentor simply because I couldn't utilize some of the skills or knowledge she has yet. And that's what some of us are saying. Also consider that the bar is set at 60 because say a new player decides they want to fast track themselves to the top; now they've got a bunch of skills and questions that, if the mentor were perhaps still at, say 54, wouldn't be as able to help with.

It's a cruel metaphor to use, but it's like asking if you wanted Y'shtola to teach you to heal, or Edda?

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Originally Posted by Odett

I mostly agree with you. It's true that some players<...>some of these questions will go unanswered.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

The only way that Square can actively...<and the rest>

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Not when the Heavensward content has been out for over<...>fostering an elitist mentality by promoting a game-long training wheels program.

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There we go..ya plugged all the holes! Alright, now to get to my real point... ; D


Toguro, I understand why you started this thread, and I can see the reason behind many of the things you've pointed out. In looking at both sides though, I want you to realize something - these requirements are not meant to bar anyone from becoming a mentor, but are there to weed out those who really shouldn't be. NO, it's not perfect, I understand why you think some of them are redonkulous, but I think you're missing why they're redonkulous - SE wants people who have reached endgame to be mentors, not just people who can be (and before anyone yells at me about my supposed "complaints" prior to this, lemme give ya reason to do so: I intended for others to counter my points. Odett and Judah simply came the closest, so I, er...nudged 'em, and played devil's advocate. I know, I'm a stinker. [though I really didn't catch Judah's sarcasm, let's not talk about that...<er-hem>]). I'm sure you will eventually be able to have access to this system (and so will I, through crafting), but if you haven't yet reached these requirements, don't you want to enjoy what content there is left for you to play first, before having new players constantly asking you questions? You will still be able to help new players as is, but at least this way you won't be distracted from your own endeavors constantly in order to do so. Like I said, I help people already, but to be honest, I'm glad I won't be able to have access to this system yet - it's something to look forward to after I get all my shtuff done!

I'm sorry if this seemed deceptive, in truth it was, but this topic is a little more delicate than most, not really a "black-and-white" thing, so I felt a different approach was necessary, especially since a lot of OP's argument comes from a passionate stand point, one that I think most people who are against, if they saw where he's coming from, would understand. Really, a lot of what has been said against him has been just to spite him, and that's not really very cool...in fact, I find it "salty".

But Toguro, be honest with me...is it really because you won't be able to access it right off the bat that you started this thread? Remember, I won't be able to either, but is it really a problem? I was kinda hopin' Judah would've said more on the "elite" subject <edit: apparently he did while I was writing this, huzzah!>, pointing out that those who really want to be mentor's will be there to counter any trolling but...we really should put this to bed now, don't you agree?

So, without being too snarky:

300 Commendations requirement - there as a filter for trolls. Perfect? Nope. But a lower requirement will be easier for anyone intending to abuse this system to grind through...

3 roles requirement - alright, even Toguro has accepted that having knowledge of the trinity from a high-end stand point is necessary, let's not berate him over this anymore. The House of Novices will also help in teaching new players these things, but having someone who gets the symbiosis of the three roles will really help with the current lack of knowledge, and therefore horrible expectations, that people currently have.

Lvl 60 requirement - okay, Odett finally nailed this one appropriately, albeit indirectly, but to put it more succinctly: SE wants people who have the time to be mentors to be mentors. Lvl 50 players have an entire expansion to play through (it's not about getting people to pay for it...). So, it's not about the experience a lvl 60 player brings to fore over a lvl 50 player, it's about the fact they have more time to devote to being a mentor than a lvl 50 player. Judah's right, though, it is more likely that a lvl 60 player will have more all around experience...does that mean lvl 50s don't? Of course not, but SE needs this to be fool-proof, and the probability, again, is with people in current endgame.

1000 dungeon requirement - specifically for players who have been in endgame for a while. Also meant to weed out trolls (few have the patience to grind out 1000 dungeons just to mess with new players, just sayin'...). Again, shows they intend players who have little else to do left besides the daily grind to become mentors. Also to show that mentors have abundant dealings not only in dungeons, but parties, including but not limited to: trolls, dealing with new players in late dungeons, different mechanics, trolls, different playstyles, teaching said mechanics/knowing how to talk to different playstyles, trolls, playing different duty content and how to deal with them, and trolls...it's almost like they expect people to abuse this system, and want the real mentors adequately equipped to counter it...hmmmmm...okay, sorry, I said I'd leave out snarkiness....

Toguro, you will be able to be a mentor eventually, but it's not life or death right out of the gate. The requirements are steep, but they need to be. Yes, pride is going to come into play here, it always does, doesn't it? I don't know where you are in the grand scheme of the game, but just be patient, and if I'm to give you any sound advice at all, don't focus on grinding for this, you'll get there eventually. Just keep doin' what you're doin', help people where you can, and enjoy the game! And now to post this and find you all have already posted a shite ton, back and forth...<sigh>

I think I said something along those lines back on like page ten, that players who are elitists aren't going to bother with a system they view as arbitrary. I'll double check and edit this with a quote later.

It was page 14. Why have we been at this so long.

You did, I just wanted you to go further into how if it was abused, the high requirements would guarantee that most of the players who earned it would know how to handle any trolling that occurred. S'all good, I think the point is backed enough so it's not "just me sayin' it"...

I'll just add my opinion here quickly, I wouldn't mind trying out mentoring except theres one problem, I don't have and will probably never have a tank to 60, they just aren't my thing.

I do have every healer to 60, a couple of DPS (melee & caster), I have also cleared every raid while it was current and some of savage coil before 3.0 (I didn't cheese it with unsynched). Also from having raided with all three types of Tanks over the last two+ years I have a pretty solid idea of how they work etc... But you know because I don't actually enjoy playing tanks I'm not qualified to mentor.

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

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Just realized we're both on Jenova. High-five. I'm truly hoping there won't be internal witch hunting and strife in the Mentor linkshell due to a few bad players, but if it's anything like early-pulling hunts I'm sure it will be straightened out in short order by the players who don't tolerate nonsense like that.

Assumptively speaking for the community as a whole, with minimal rewards to be had for effort we as mentors will have to put in I don't see the amount of satisfaction being equitable for the volatile players. There obviously won't be any function to actively remove a Mentor's status, but one can only assume that their enjoyment of trolling new players would swiftly be met with the vocal do-gooders.

I think the problem is that he doesn't understand that just because it can be done, does not mean it will be done.

Sure, you can learn ALL of the trinity's roles by level 30. Good players will typically have a good idea of what's going on before 60. But again, because it can be done, it doesn't mean it will. The large majority of the players will in fact lack this knowledge. The system needs to make sure the mentors have quality, much more than it needs to ensure quantity. Are these requirements weeding out some very good players that unfortunately do not meet the requirements? Yes. But it is also weeding a lot more players that shouldn't be mentors, and that is more important. Remember this system is to HELP the newbies, not to enable the entire player-base some rewards.

Also another thing about your tirade of level 50 vs level 60. They need to ensure jobs are at 60 because of pre-HW/ARR leveled people. I am on a legacy server and I know a LOT of people with all jobs at 50 because they leveled it in 1.0, that have not touched and know very little of the job. Typically they keep these jobs at 50 and only level what they like/want to 60. By ensuring jobs at 60 you know that they had played the job in the past 8 months enough to have it at max level. On the other hand, having the limit be 50 you open the floodgates to people that haven't touched the jobs in four years. Likewise, it lets people that stopped playing since 2.1 and likely have no clue of what the game is now to dispense advice. These are all very bad things, so restricting it to 60 over 50 is the only sensible option.

Also, you seem to have completely skipped the actual physical requirements of performing the mentor service. You seem fixated into helping DRG's as a DRG, and the current system may allow that, but what of helping a PLD as a PLD? Or a WHM as another WHM? When doing the roulette, you'll have to change to another job to help them. I am going to help Tanks personally, and this will most likely be done from my SCH or any of my other DPS's, because I can't help a WAR in dungeons as another WAR/PLD/DRK. Forcing you to have all 3 roles at 60 means you are more likely to be able to fill any role than someone that only has one job at 60.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

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Common sense and very refreshing, wish I could like your post more than once.

To the people who don't qualify and want to be mentors:
Add this to your goals in-game and work towards it. If you aren't prepared to do that, then ask yourself why want to do this and if you're really going to have enough patience to cope with people who learn at a slow or uneven pace, just don't seem to 'get' your explanations or regularly forget things you've already taught them.
Mentoring is tough, it's good that Square are setting the bar high.
Yes, it will exclude some people who would probably make great mentors but none of the requirements are impossible to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

I'll just add my opinion here quickly, I wouldn't mind trying out mentoring except theres one problem, I don't have and will probably never have a tank to 60, they just aren't my thing.

I do have every healer to 60, a couple of DPS (melee & caster), I have also cleared every raid while it was current and some of savage coil before 3.0 (I didn't cheese it with unsynched). Also from having raided with all three types of Tanks over the last two+ years I have a pretty solid idea of how they work etc... But you know because I don't actually enjoy playing tanks I'm not qualified to mentor.

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That doesn't however disqualify you from doing the job. I would encourage you to actively mentor newer players anyways if you have the heart to do it.

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Originally Posted by Saiah

Whats that people who cant become mentors? You'll have to speak up! I can't hear you through the engine sound of my golden magitek.

*flies off as her best gown ever flaps in the wind*

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*Comes to salute the peasants mounted in the giant fat chocobo with a crown* "Heh? 300 commends is too much? Hmm... Wait, really? You can ge that in less than a month I think?... Come on, you want to get mentors in less than a month?"

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

That doesn't however disqualify you from doing the job. I would encourage you to actively mentor newer players anyways if you have the heart to do it.

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I used to when doing dungeons etc, but no matter how politely you try to tell people they are doing something wrong they tend to take it as an attack.

There had to be a line in the sand somewhere, and it had to be in a way that benefits from a DF. That requires at least a basic knowledge of all roles in every level range. The only way to guarentee that is to guarentee a level range through the code. It's a simple matter of statistical advantage. Guy who leveled WHM to 60 is more likely to know more about healing then guy who has WHM at 0. It's not always true, but I would be willing to bet there's a solid trend there.

300 comms is really not that much... you can get that much just leveling the healer or tank that someone ignored to 60 and doing some trial DF's.

As a long time play. I think the requirement are fine.