Live Letter 3.2 tank changes, vit effects tank attack

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Originally Posted by Istede

This change will take place when there is a new tier of stuff. Generally accepted upgrade paths mean you probably won't be grabbing new accessories during the first couple of weeks, but Eso and Alex Savage will be off lock-out. Even if you don't have people to grind A1S with, you can go grab 4 bolts from A1N right now and wear that as a junk set until you spend the 2 or 3 hours needed to grind enough eso for a full set of fending replacements. Annoying yeah, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

There's a difference of 7 main stat per piece of 190 and 210 jewelry, so a tank with 4 pieces of 190 and 1 210 piece would have 28 less VIT than someone with 5 210. Sure that's a disadvantage, but it's not going to be a problem for anyone but those doing early Midas progression. And all those people probably have enough pages, spare drops or eso right now to replace their slaying with fending.

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I am not talking about now. I'm telling you the developers have dug themselves a hole. Eventually that hole will get flooded with water.

Also, since they changed something knowing a majority of players favored one way, but did not offer plans for compensation or explained how they have plans for the future, it kind of makes the players look like $$$ bags. Trade-ins are the fairest way to combat this.

I don't mind that. If they gave me 5 weeks of free subscription as well. Remember, this game has lockouts based on TIME. This isn't a free to play game.

Trade-Ins would be much more fair, because every other class NOT affected by this, can spend their time gearing alts now whilst tanks have to regear. THAT IS NOT FAIR.

I guarentee you many people play more then one class you know.

So essentially, we have to pay more then other players because of a mistake of development. That isn't fair.

I'm guessing the thread you made git deleted since your here now. Thought your idea got shot down enough, with more than enough time to farm a set before the patch, but guess you just want more

You don't even play a tank, just have an alt with prototype accessories on.

Lol, you couldn't get sympathy in a thread you started so now you're trying to hijack another one making the same points people already argued against you for?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I guarentee you many people play more then one class you know.

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I'm glad you said that. Your accessories are not useless because you can use them for a DRG or MNK should you ever choose to level them.

"it's not fair, it's not fair." Stop whining and go run Expert and A1S to get your Vit accessories if you somehow haven't by now, because this change has been expected since October of last year, or even earlier, and this is coming from someone who mains a tank job.

Unless you are a new player I don't see how you would really be hurt by this. This game is literally shoving gear down our throats. I have 5 60s and the lowest ilvl one is i198. My
main has been i208 for several months. And I quit for 3 months from September to November, plus I work full-time.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Whats really stupid is they are not giving us means to replace our gear by trade in. Every single MMO i've seen do something like this has done it in a way that affects EVERYONE. (Like, they should of done this at the start of 3.0, when everyone had to replace their gear.)

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I said this in another thread but I'll say it here too, SE not like other companies if you haven't noticed.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

.....So essentially, we have to pay more then other players because of a mistake of development. That isn't fair.

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1. This exact potential change was discussed in tank threads when the original statement from SE was issued back in November.
2. STR isn't not being made obsolete. A STR spec will simply do less damage than a VIT spec (but more than a tank in a DEX build)
3. SE made this announcement with more than 3 weeks left to cap your ESO now, to obtain the better replacement pieces (4 if weeks if you hadn't spent any eso this week)
4. As with EVERY even numbered patch, new gear makes old gear useless. You were going to need to re-gear anyway.

In General - stop feeling entitled, you don't deserve to be given new accessories (they aren't completely useless, just less than BiS), and you sure don't deserve 5 weeks free.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/64737863.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I am not talking about now. I'm telling you the developers have dug themselves a hole. Eventually that hole will get flooded with water.

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They've done nothing of the sort. You're just lazy and don't want to do anything to fit the new meta once we know what it is.

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Also, since they changed something knowing a majority of players favored one way, but did not offer plans for compensation or explained how they have plans for the future, it kind of makes the players look like $$$ bags. Trade-ins are the fairest way to combat this.

I don't mind that. If they gave me 5 weeks of free subscription as well. Remember, this game has lockouts based on TIME. This isn't a free to play game.

Trade-Ins would be much more fair, because every other class NOT affected by this, can spend their time gearing alts now whilst tanks have to regear. THAT IS NOT FAIR.

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They were actually very smart to release this change right when new dungeons, a new currency, and a new raid tier are being released. Basically, they've removed some of the pain from regearing by implementing this change at a point when you should be regearing anyway. Boo hoo they aren't giving you some bolts to replace your Prototype accessories. Many of us anticipated this change as a possibility as soon as impending tank changes were announced for 3.2 and decided to hang onto some Fending gear just in case. This is what you get for being lazy and expecting everything to just be handed to you when changes are made.

Also, lol @ 5 weeks of free subscription. Why? Your tank isn't even wearing Eso/Gordian accessories.

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I guarentee you many people play more then one class you know.

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Good point, so slap your STR accessories on a MNK or DRG and call it a day. :3

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So essentially, we have to pay more then other players because of a mistake of development. That isn't fair.

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The change is being announced three weeks in advance, so either get your tail in gear and prepare or just laze around and change it as you update your gear naturally. It's completely up to you. I swear, if you would put even a fraction of the effort toward farming some Gordian bolts to replace those Prototype accessories as you do toward whining on the forums about the supposed problems with this change, you would've been done regearing already and there wouldn't be anything for you to whine about.

And for the record, you can go farm some Eso without ever touching Neverreap if you really hate it that much. :rolleyes:

Just a heads' up, guys, but Nektulos-Tuor doesn't even have a tank at 60.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Just a heads' up, guys, but Nektulos-Tuor doesn't even have a tank at 60.

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He does, he just hides that alt on his account because he doesn't want people to see it for whatever reason.

Probably because it's using Prototype accessories, which renders half of his argument moot from the get-go.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

He does, he just hides that alt on his account because he doesn't want people to see it for whatever reason.

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Is it 'his' like "My main account has cleared A4S!!" or actually his?

Because that seems hilarious either way.

There are three weeks from now until the next patch. Easily enough time to earn a full right side of accessories and get it to 210.

Not to mention anyone who mains tank ought to have a mix of str and fending already. You don't HAVE to start 3.2 with full 210 to be competitive. But if you do, you can still get/upgrade Gordian and esoteric jewelry and start with 210 fending in 3.2.

I've been sitting on a stack of A1S tokens and Machi farthings as I deliberated what to upgrade next, and now I'm glad. I already have two 210 fending from Alex drops. Tues the 23rd I can plink down my vouchers and be full 210 fending but up until then I'll rock my full slaying, thanks.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

There are three weeks from now until the next patch. Easily enough time to earn a full right side of accessories and get it to 210.

Not to mention anyone who mains tank ought to have a mix of str and fending already. You don't HAVE to start 3.2 with full 210 to be competitive. But if you do, you can still get/upgrade Gordian and esoteric jewelry and start with 210 fending in 3.2.

I've been sitting on a stack of A1S tokens and Machi farthings as I deliberated what to upgrade next, and now I'm glad. I already have two 210 fending from Alex drops. Tues the 23rd I can plink down my vouchers and be full 210 fending but up until then I'll rock my full slaying, thanks.

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Looking at his tank, he doesn't even have Alex Savage or even Esoterics jewelry for that matter, so I don't know what his deal is when he's not even looking for BiS equipment. He's rocking full prototype jewelry, which takes less than a day of A1N or A2N farming in order to replace. The fact that he has 3 weeks to do it and sees this as a problem worth complaining about, just magnifies his laziness.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

I really wish they hadn't made this change.....

As little customization as there is in this game, STR TANK vs VIT TANK was one of them...
Just REMOVE POINT allocation all together now please.

Soul GEM for ACN can give SMN INT AND SCH MND

Now there is no reason for any tank to be different then any other tank.

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There was no customization end game... just the illusion of it. You stacked STR... and just enough vit to keep you from being busted.... everyone uses the same formula. You think there is a choice currently? They are making tank gear actually viable... you know the drops that are meant for us actually being used instead of use greed rolling on dps gear.

I have yet to see a tank in end game content that is not following the same exact formula... str stacking with just enough hp to survive. Why? Because you are forced to by design aka dps checks. You can't really stack vit because you have to put out dps numbers to clear the content. Stack vit as a PLD and see how long you hold threat, watch how fast you dont hit that dps mark....

Then you havent met me yet. I absolutely love those big HP numbers. :) And no I dont do alex savage.

And also... by the logic of people in here saying well now theres no choice... well thats not true you can always add STR to your vit after 3.2... its just not optimal. Just like its not optimal right now to add vit to str, just reversed. Just sayin haha.

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

And also... by the logic of people in here saying well now theres no choice... well thats not true you can always add STR to your vit after 3.2... its just not optimal. Just like its not optimal right now to add vit to str, just reversed. Just sayin haha.

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But if you want optimal performance for your Tank class then there is no real choice. Which the whole game is really designed around no choice.

There have never been real choices in FFXIV. The only ones that had the choice were tanks because of bad game design. Everyone else has to stack the same things. By now, the choice will come in what you choose for your secondary stat build. If you want more acc, det, crit, wtv else. I don't get why people are complaining about the lack of choice... I mean, the game's been out for what, two years?

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

There have never been real choices in FFXIV. The only ones that had the choice were tanks because of bad game design. Everyone else has to stack the same things. By now, the choice will come in what you choose for your secondary stat build. If you want more acc, det, crit, wtv else. I don't get why people are complaining about the lack of choice... I mean, the game's been out for what, two years?

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People like options. I can't blame them. The new FF Explorers on 3DS has a blander combat system yet offers tons of customization and that my friend takes the cake. Plus playing as a real Dark Knight again is a dream made reality. And with XIV the game design has essentially made it so you only roll one specific set with any of the job classes. Now tell me what's more fun and adds better replay value? A game with a system that allows customization for a dynamic combat class or a class that offers only one way of playing a combat class through linear progression.

Yeah one's an MMO and the other a PSO/MH knockoff. But man the freedom of customizing your armor, weapon and buffing even your stats with materials and getting unique traits like HP absorb and elemental attack boosts would make XIV more fun and more people would play to make their powerful builds.

But whatever got to keep it simple for casual players right?

As an Ast Main who's just starting to level a tank, still choosing ;p, this stat change for tanks make me really happy. Consistantly, I find that if I Clerics with a Warrior>Dark Knight, I'll probably drain my mp tring to stop them dieing after getting my dots up/1 gravity use. Never had this issue with a paladin unless they were at entry ilvl. Then if I don't dps, I get yelled at; when All I Really Want to Reply is Get more HP/Use CDS/Survivability and I will. >.> Go Vit Tanks!!!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

1I guarentee you many people play more then one class you know.

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Yeah i play 4 jobs and 3 of them are tanks huehue!! besides 3 eso pieces they share rest of the gear and NiN is just for Void Ark derping so gear for that doesnt matter at all.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

But whatever got to keep it simple for casual players right?

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As a "casual" player myself, I don't appreciate being labeled as if I'm a simpleton who can't grasp multiple gearing options. I'm just as good as any "hardcore" player and I'm sure many other casuals are as well. A better choice of words would have made me want to take what you said with a grain of salt, but after that all I want to do is make you feel as ignorant as you think I must be. The only difference between you and me is a few clears of hi-lvl content (maybe) and your need to feel superior.

Perhaps "casual" is too much of a generalization. So I apologize if you were offended. I'd just like some customization and depth in this game. Too streamlined for my tastes. I wouldn't label myself as superior, I won't even attempt Savage. I'm a wimp.

However there are some players out there...that absolutely refuse to try even in basic dungeons. And lemme tell you they are horror stories. I've ran with Dark Knights in Darkhold who were lvl45 wearing lvl 25 gear not using any of their skills because they had opted to not do any Job Quests. Yeah.

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Originally Posted by RaineAmorie

As a "casual" player myself, I don't appreciate being labeled as if I'm a simpleton who can't grasp multiple gearing options. I'm just as good as any "hardcore" player and I'm sure many other casuals are as well. A better choice of words would have made me want to take what you said with a grain of salt, but after that all I want to do is make you feel as ignorant as you think I must be. The only difference between you and me is a few clears of hi-lvl content (maybe) and your need to feel superior.

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But Sir! You are no longer a casual. If you can do a basic level 60 rotation you are already an elitist. That's how the labels in this game work. :3

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Perhaps "casual" is too much of a generalization. So I apologize if you were offended. I'd just like some customization and depth in this game. Too streamlined for my tastes. I wouldn't label myself as superior, I won't even attempt Savage. I'm a wimp.

However there are some players out there...that absolutely refuse to try even in basic dungeons. And lemme tell you they are horror stories. I've ran with Dark Knights in Darkhold who were lvl45 wearing lvl 25 gear not using any of their skills because they had opted to not do any Job Quests. Yeah.

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Those are called "bads", they just happen to be casual because they have no choice to be anything but. ;3

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Originally Posted by Archaell

But Sir! You are no longer a casual. If you can do a basic level 60 rotation you are already an elitist. That's how the labels in this game work. :3

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You're my new best friend. Do you like my tryhard glam? :P

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Originally Posted by RaineAmorie

You're my new best friend. Do you like my tryhard glam? :P

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Love it. You need to protect your eye sight when the str tanks bleed on the floor. :D

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

There are three weeks from now until the next patch. Easily enough time to earn a full right side of accessories and get it to 210.

Not to mention anyone who mains tank ought to have a mix of str and fending already. You don't HAVE to start 3.2 with full 210 to be competitive. But if you do, you can still get/upgrade Gordian and esoteric jewelry and start with 210 fending in 3.2.

I've been sitting on a stack of A1S tokens and Machi farthings as I deliberated what to upgrade next, and now I'm glad. I already have two 210 fending from Alex drops. Tues the 23rd I can plink down my vouchers and be full 210 fending but up until then I'll rock my full slaying, thanks.

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Just in case no one else thinks of this:

Do not spend your Esoterics on Vitality accesoires yet, if you're not capped already.
You should aim for (almost) capped Esoterics for 22.02. (one day before release), since prices will most likely drop. Maybe you can get buy crafting mats for the new crafted accesoires/gear.
Soooo.. don't spend you Esoterics on gear you don't need now, but spend it when/if you need it.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I am not talking about now. I'm telling you the developers have dug themselves a hole. Eventually that hole will get flooded with water.

Also, since they changed something knowing a majority of players favored one way, but did not offer plans for compensation or explained how they have plans for the future, it kind of makes the players look like $$$ bags. Trade-ins are the fairest way to combat this.

I don't mind that. If they gave me 5 weeks of free subscription as well. Remember, this game has lockouts based on TIME. This isn't a free to play game.

Trade-Ins would be much more fair, because every other class NOT affected by this, can spend their time gearing alts now whilst tanks have to regear. THAT IS NOT FAIR.

I guarentee you many people play more then one class you know.

So essentially, we have to pay more then other players because of a mistake of development. That isn't fair.

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1) The timely lookouts on the gear you did not get will go away with 3.2, so you don't need 5 weeks to get you VIT acc, you only need maybe a few days.... First day I can just do 10x A1S for tokens and esoteric and I'd be mostly done (if I'd still need them).

2) Even if SE didn't change the damage calculation for tanks, they could legitimately make VIT acc for tanks mandatory due to raid mechanics (even the old ones like A1-4s) and/or buff parry-stat.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

snip.

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you can play multiple cass without having them fully decked in i210.
Right now you can at least roll a full i190 with i205 weapon, which is already grossly overgeared for any content except AS3&4, which you can't freely farm so it doesn't matter

Vit now does damage while str is lower rates......soo there's no point in customization? Wow do yall realize how much of the game has been nerfed? No more challenges due to zero custom builds for tanks.....and yall think there's a lack of tanks now. This will either hugely over power tanks with high health and high damage or high health weak damage since str no longer have effects. Not looking forward to the changes at all.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

No more challenges due to zero custom builds for tanks

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These "custom builds" ended in era of second coil, since that its always been same STR focused build, also i didnt know doing 3 gearsets is challenge... I think STR might endup being our new best secondary stat instead crit/det, so with new materia slots it means more customization for tanks and other jobs aswell.

Hmm honestly now that I put thought into this dps of a tank took a hit. There's no way SE will allow a tank to dps at a full str rate while being full vit. That's asinine and will make the game very easy. With that being said IF you haven't already get them PLD up to 60. They're being reworked and probably given Moar dps with their high mitigation at ease of use here. On the bright side the offensive stance is safe due to more HP. How ever I don't think war or drk will benefit as much as a PLD. Personally I would only use this adjustment for the PLD and keep WAR and DRK the same. There's almost no benefits for being a skilled tank. It's cut and dry now.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

soo there's no point in customization?

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When the biggest customization in the game (besides glamour) is trading max HP for damage, customization is pretty much dead. They might as well just remove stats and just do a generic ilvl for everything.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

These "custom builds" ended in era of second coil, since that its always been same STR focused build, also i didnt know doing 3 gearsets is challenge... I think STR might endup being our new best secondary stat instead crit/det, so with new materia slots it means more customization for tanks and other jobs aswell.

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Have you seen or play with some the str tank? It like taking a drawing out of a hat. Today this one sucks, this one is only good because healer is good, this run omg he/she is amazing perfect stance and aggro, this one two mins into the run and we're already dead 5 times.......the list of random styles goes on for days. But I guess safe play is better overall.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Have you seen or play with some the str tank? It like taking a drawing out of a hat. Today this one sucks, this one is only good because healer is good, this run omg he/she is amazing perfect stance and aggro, this one two mins into the run and we're already dead 5 times.......the list of random styles goes on for days. But I guess safe play is better overall.

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That's not exclusive to STR tanks, and 3.2 won't make bad tanks not bad. At best, some of them might be less bad.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

My guess is that the vit calculation will be lower than what people have been achieving with their str sets/melds but ima try to remain positive..

Gonna really miss my huge fel cleave crits if this somehow turns into a nerf.

Be funny if the vit calculation was actually higher but my guess is either the same as str was or lower still.

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What I got from the notes is that Vit will be a main modifier and str will be a reduced secondary modifier. So it could still be great for WARs.

It makes me happy. No more squishy tanks by low HP. No more pitiful non-threating dark knights! Building defense will in NO way negatively affects tank in hideous ways, namely a lack of threat due to a lack of power. No more disjointing CDs where one does better with high HP, but most others are powered by attack power. Stoneskin and Divine Veil will do more. Savage Tanks will be more capable of taking a hit, and this is a DPS boon.

Good thing the patch is a bit off cause I got 2 STR accessories to replace. And then I can finally run about with 32K~36K HP much more often as I have always wanted. (yes balancing vit, threat, other things relying on attack power got in way of that.)

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

It makes me happy. No more squishy tanks by low HP. No more pitiful non-threating dark knights! Building defense will in NO way negatively affects tank in hideous ways, namely a lack of threat due to a lack of power. No more disjointing CDs where one does better with high HP, but most others are powered by attack power. Stoneskin and Divine Veil will do more. Savage Tanks will be more capable of taking a hit, and this is a DPS boon.

Good thing the patch is a bit off cause I got 2 STR accessories to replace. And then I can finally run about with 32K~36K HP much more often as I have always wanted. (yes balancing vit, threat, other things relying on attack power got in way of that.)

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BUT..... Fending accessories never had defense.. (why do people keep saying this?)
Divine veil - TBH an extra 500 hp shield on me isn't that big of a deal, it does mean more for the party which is quite nice.
Stoneskin..... really? again, 500 hp is a miniscule adjustment (but yes, something is something)

Squishy tanks are tanks that don't mitigate properly - never mattered if they were str or vit. A good healer could handle either type of tank that mitigated properly. Hell, I can heal and handle those types of tanks....

My biggest fear within all of this: I cringe when I watch today's VIT tanks mitigate tank busters using their weakest defensive CD. They do it because they have soooo much health, they don't have to think about what they are actually doing, Mongo just push buttons. Unless SE just simply doesn't tune fights to put out enough damage, these types of tanks are going to get wrecked, because they don't bother to learn how to mitigate properly.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

My biggest fear within all of this: I cringe when I watch today's VIT tanks mitigate tank busters using their weakest defensive CD. They do it because they have soooo much health, they don't have to think about what they are actually doing

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This is a good point. It's analogous to WoW when TBC came out. Everyone used bears because they were the only ones with large enough health pools to survive tank busters (if you were really pushing content) - but healers would OOM trying to fill the giant bars. The same thing could happen here - and it will because bad tanks will still be bad.

As a tank, I welcome the adjustment if only to stop the whining from the other classes if you haven't gone all VIT. Now I'll be all VIT and hopefully that will be the build that also maximizes my DPS. Since SE decided to add so many DPS checks, more DPS matters - which was the point of the STR movement in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Raineer

This is a good point. It's analogous to WoW when TBC came out. Everyone used bears because they were the only ones with large enough health pools to survive tank busters (if you were really pushing content) - but healers would OOM trying to fill the giant bars. The same thing could happen here - and it will because bad tanks will still be bad.

As a tank, I welcome the adjustment if only to stop the whining from the other classes if you haven't gone all VIT. Now I'll be all VIT and hopefully that will be the build that also maximizes my DPS. Since SE decided to add so many DPS checks, more DPS matters - which was the point of the STR movement in the first place.

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I'm not sure how it's a good point? Damage goes out much more slowly in this game that it's okay for healers to be smart and refill the tank's HP more slowly. In fact, everything I've read about healing in FFXIV suggests not trying to keep everybody topped off. Big cooldowns should be used for tankbusters, yes, but having a bigger HP pool means you don't have to stack them, and can use the weaker ones more rotationally to help mitigate some of the lesser damage even more than you could have before (which might consequently enable tanks to spend more time out of their tank stances, which means even more DPS, so yay).

EDIT: Also, it is possible that the decreased need to stack huge cooldowns will lead to a situation where one tank could mitigate most of the tankbusters, possibly leading to easier solo-tanking strats, or at least fewer tank swaps.

I did not do any Coil progression, but I'm not aware of any tankbuster in this game where VIT accs allow you to save a cooldown. A tank with 15k HP and a tank with 21k HP can use the same cooldown and survive a TB, the 15k tank doesn't need to use two CDs. If a tank does need to use two CDs, the incoming damage is enough to squash them whether they have 17k or 27k HP. The difference is that the tank wearing VIT accs may be able to live through an auto-attack crit, or a couple auto-attacks/low damage attacks after the TB if the healer is slow on the draw, whereas the tank with 15k HP is probably dead if the healer messes up, even if he lives through the TB. In both cases, proper healing renders the wearing of VIT accs moot.

That's been my experience as a healer anyway. I don't see these changes affecting that at all. Boss damage will be proportionally increased, and the tank DPS meta will remain in place.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

... Big cooldowns should be used for tankbusters, yes, but having a bigger HP pool means you don't have to stack them, and can use the weaker ones more rotationally to help mitigate some of the lesser damage even more than you could have before (which might consequently enable tanks to spend more time out of their tank stances, which means even more DPS, so yay).....

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Well, my point was that there are tanks with ridiculous HP pools who mitigate the big hits with only the little cooldowns. *Foresight is a little cooldown

@istede
go check a couple of PLD pov Thordan EX clears on youtube. Last time I looked at the top results, most of those tanks had 20k (ish) health and would mitigate Heavenly Heel with only foresight ( and on some - holy blade dance). Their HP would go from 21k to under 4-5K, which would mean death to a STR build (damage totalling 16-17k hp). Of course on a VIT build with a better mitigation rotation, they would have gone from 21k to 11k health (I go 16 to 6 - ish).