I think its time BRD get some loving

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

what about BLACK MAGES?

convert : utility
Apocatastasis : utility
manawall : utility
freeze: spell that never gets used...useless
flare : spell used only on aoe/burst

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You're comparing apples to oranges. Tell me how a single-person utility spell is similar to four party-wide support spells. Please, enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

That is why Parses have never and never will be a full true and accurate representation to what someone brings to the party. That the damage that has been boosted by the BRD shows on a parser for the BRD is irrelevant and shows on edimensional thinking inregards to what they bring to the party. No BRD or no Paeons means no increase in the overall parties damage. That is what support abilities do as opposed to self buffs.

So yes it is yours, your the reason why the overall party DPS increased. Because with out it there is no DPS increase

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Except, that would also mean, the 10% piercing damage from dragoons I get as a bard, goes to them. 10% of slashing damage from NIN/WAR would compliment each other and the paladin.. The argument still lies in the fact, it's a utility people provide to other jobs in your party. Generally, people self buff their damage in this game. It's not OUR damage. We're just providing them with a utility to do more damage. Just like other jobs provide utility to do more damage themselves.

If only parses showed the DPS gain from bard's party buffs for the bard instead of everyone else, I'm sure there'd be a lot less complaining. Oh wait, you're one of the SEVEN bards in WoD that aren't using Requiem? Sigh.

Oh and don't forget, Requiem is helping your healers' DPS as well (yes, our healers DPS in FCOB, yours should be too). If I'm not mistaken, it works on a few Ninja abilities too.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

No matter what theories people come out with it does not work because we went through this in 2.0. Bards were above all other dps jobs when our dps was boosted. Your proof that bards do not need buffs are pretty blatant if you log in and see the 50 bards standing around you vs every other job. Bards are so overplayed for a reason. Because they perform at the higher dps echelon with less skill required and have high mobility for having 90% of the dps of the other jobs. Please SE do not make us more OP then we already are.

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The people you play with seem pretty bad if you feel OP.

The only way bards out DPS is if other jobs are screwing up, over-dodging, refusing to use gap closers etc. Thats only because our AA can hit from far away.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

You're comparing apples to oranges. Tell me how a single-person utility spell is similar to four party-wide support spells. Please, enlighten me.

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Apocathasis was DRGs best freind pre buff. Countless DRGs lives were saved by this in T13.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

If only parses showed the DPS gain from bard's party buffs for the bard instead of everyone else, I'm sure there'd be a lot less complaining. Oh wait, you're one of the SEVEN bards in WoD that aren't using Requiem? Sigh.

Oh and don't forget, Requiem is helping your healers' DPS as well (yes, our healers DPS in FCOB, yours should be too). If I'm not mistaken, it works on a few Ninja abilities too.

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It doesnt matter. WAR slashing debuff, Goad, TA, Disembowel, blunt debuff is all the same or better depending on party.

And yes, there are way too many ARCHERS that dont sing. (not bard) I hate it when our random party doesnt get another foes when my mp is dry

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Originally Posted by Airashii

Except, snip

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Because you are still thinking linearly, and not in regards to what you bring to the party overall. If no BRD, no Foes, so caster damage is lower. If BRD caster damage is increased because of the BRD. Supprt or hybrid support, are to compliment and increase the effectiveness of the party. Thats their strength, not some arbitary figure on parser that doesn't show the full story.

Stop talking parsers as gospel. Its like watching parts 1, 5 and 11 of a 15 part series. Gives you a general; idea, but you dont get the full picture. Ive been using parsers since EQ1 so fully aware of how much they display and don't display.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Because you are still thinking linearly, and not in regards to what you bring to the party overall. If no BRD, no Foes, so caster damage is lower. If BRD caster damage is increased because of the BRD. Supprt or hybrid support, are to compliment and increase the effectiveness of the party. Thats their strength, not some arbitary figure on parser that doesn't show the full story.

Stop talking parsers as gospel. Its like watching parts 1, 5 and 11 of a 15 part series. Gives you a general; idea, but you dont get the full picture. Ive been using parsers since EQ1 so fully aware of how much they display and don't display.

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I'm aware what each damage buff does for the group. I'm just stating you shouldn't start "adding it to your DPS." To me, it's the groups DPS. All I care about for my DPS is being able to push my best numbers possible while doing my job.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

It doesnt matter. WAR slashing debuff, Goad, TA, Disembowel, blunt debuff is all the same or better depending on party.

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How many of those debuffs are applied to ALL enemies in area with the click of ONE button? None. All of those debuffs are applied to SINGLE targets AFTER using a few other abilities beforehand. The two add phases in T10 and phase 3 of T12 come to mind. What happens when you increase caster damage of 4 or 5 mobs by 10%, then increase that to 20% per mob with Battle Voice?

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

And Mage's Ballad. And Swift.
And Battle Voice. 80% of your job abilities are pure support. Only one is a DPS action.

Other classes, however, are nowhere near this. Also, see above.

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Did you really just throw swiftsong out there?? lolol

3 songs that support the party, and each of them only benefit partial party members.

Paeon 5/8 supported
Ballad 3/8 supported
Foes 3/8 supported

Every other dps class has at least 2 party support abilities as well. With just about the same weight in terms of value. This is what really gets me, its the fact that everyone seems to love ignoring this fact.

Not to mention every song that we have is only played for MAYBE 30seconds at a time (FOE's being the exception) and even that is pushing it. So tell me why its such a big deal to remove the debuff from it?

Do You think a bard is going to play ballad all day long now because of it?? WRONG
Do you think a bard is going to play Paeon all day long now because of it?? WRONG

The fact that you think this is what bards would do if it was removed tells me you know absolutely nothing about the bard job at all. Do you think that all of a sudden you are going to see FC's stacking 4 bards to plow through content, you must be out your mind.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

Not to mention every song that we have is only played for MAYBE 30seconds at a time (FOE's being the exception) and even that is pushing it. So tell me why its such a big deal to remove the debuff from it?

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It's played for 30 seconds because of the damage penalty, not because it's not needed. Ballad is essentially self-sustainable because it also regens the singer's mana, pretty much giving healers infinite mana to work with the entire fight if there's no drawbacks to singing it. Same with paeon, except replace mana with TP.

Either case, I still want to smack people that label bards as a "support" class. They have support skills yes, but their primary role is still dps by ingame definition and what they have to do in a group. All the singing isn't doing jack shite if they're pulling numbers below 300 in final coil or even WoD. I mean its semantics, but I feel that we're playing an "archer that learns bard skills, not a bard". Sure four of our five abilities are support, but that is far from our only abilities because we still have skills that carry over from an archer.

Even if it's just a percentage base (bards have 10% less weapon damage than everyone else), the gap on numerical dps difference is just going to widen in future content if they continue with the downscaling on WD, which really seems to be the point of interest for some people here. Hope it doesn't come to it, but it's eventually going to hit numerical values that are so high, that the bards would be doing roughly 200 less dps (which is still 5-10% less dps than everyone else at that point) where it's probably better just to bring another dps or the eventual machinist to fill in that missing dps to hasten phases or fights.

^ Too much doom and gloom. SE won't let that happen, the game's jobs are decently balanced, and I've dealt with NO "we refuse to bring X class to content" so far like I have in other MMOs. I'm not expecting that to change.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

Apocathasis was DRGs best freind pre buff. Countless DRGs lives were saved by this in T13.

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This...does not even remotely answer my question.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

snip

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Swift is still a support spell, whether or not you actually actively use it in dungeons or overall tells me that you're a poor bard who does not make active use of all of the abilities presented before them.

You also actively ignore the countless other benefits I have listed to being a bard in prior posts, such as:

-Being more able to support party members
-Able to move around attack at no cost to overall DPS output
-No positionals required whatsoever
-No confusing or difficult rotation to master

You cannot compare single target support spells to multi-target support spells. They aren't even on the same level.

As I stated before, if you want to to more damage, dedicate yourself to a DD that focuses way more on dealing damage that utility (such as Monk or Dragoon) than a class with mid-range DPS with added support. Either start playing better, or switch to a class dedicated fully to DPS.

Stop playing the melancholy card when no such deficit of abilities or DPS exist. Summoners come first in the line of buffs, not bard. I have absolutely zero sympathy for you.

I can understand the bards desire to parse higher and the ideas proposed in this thread arent too bad but at the end of the day SE only rebalances jobs once exclusion from endgame content starts happening (as has been the case for WAR/Melee/BLM/DRG) which atm is not the case for bard. Rather contrary, on shiva, bard seems to be the dps in most demand for FcoB. Its hard to justify buffing a job as long as this is the case.

Its partly due to bard not having any competition for their slot. So maybe when machinist comes out there are better chances for a bard buff (this would assume though that machinist would be superior).

Another thing i want to mention is that the actual WD gap doesnt seem to increase. The innitial WD difference of 4 or 5 is naturally going to rise over time to remain the same gap due to WD increasing overall.


Example
Allagan Bow WD 42
Allagan Spear WD 47

-> difference of 5 WD

future content Bow WD 420
future content Spear WD 470

-> difference of 50 WD

= Still the same gap.

If it remained a difference of 5 WD forever, the actual gap between bards and other classes would shrink. So its expected that the difference in WD would get higher over time without making bards weaker.

You realize if they buffed BRD, nobody will take Summoners and Black Mages... why would they?

Think about it, if BRD was buffed it would be a ranged class that does the most ranged damage and provides raid-wide buffs.... think about it for a second? why would anyone take a caster?

BRD should never do more DPS than a BLM or a SMN, the reason people want BRD's is for the utility, not the damage.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

Our WD is not scaling correctly period.

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But it totally is.

Allagan bow 42 WD
Allagane spear 47 WD

42/47= 89,3%

dreadwyrm bow 52 WD
dreadwyrm spear 58 WD

52/58 = 89,6%

Its actually slightly more now.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

Some response that isn't even an argument.

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I love it when disagreeing with someone and actively proving them wrong suddenly counts as trolling. You may want to look up what trolling ACTUALLY is before labelling other people as trolls; it makes you look a tad foolish.

Second, swift song IS a support ability. What the hell is it? DPS? No, you use it to aid the speed of your companions outside of combat. How is that not support?

You also provide no argument as to why not having a rotation is a "zero weight argument." Give me reasons, don't just talk out your ass. The rest of your post is ignorable because you don't even forward any argument against the benefits to a bard I listed, just stick your fingers into your ears and pretend they don't exist. Give me SPECIFIC REASONS as to why those four things I listed are completely ignorable and irrelevant and don't play a factor. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

But it totally is.

Allagan bow 42 WD
Allagane spear 47 WD

42/47= 89,3%

dreadwyrm bow 52 WD
dreadwyrm spear 58 WD

52/58 = 89,6%

Its actually slightly more now.

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Do you know how much Raw damage is gained by 1 WD? This is what im mainly concerned about. It was fine at 2.3. They made it worse at 2.4 for no reason. The percentage of the bosses life a bard damages is lower since 2.4 with this WD nerf. This isnt necessary and SE needs to draw a line how low they can make us.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

Do you know how much Raw damage is gained by 1 WD? This is what im mainly concerned about. It was fine at 2.3. They made it worse at 2.4 for no reason. The percentage of the bosses life a bard damages is lower since 2.4 with this WD nerf. This isnt necessary and SE needs to draw a line how low they can make us.

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Yes i know how much 1 WD is but you havent lost 1 WD, current bard weapons still have 10-11% less WD than other weapons, just as they did when the game launched. This WD nerf you are talking about doesnt exist. I dont know what else to tell you other than look at my post again and try to understand.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

[...]

Its partly due to bard not having any competition for their slot.[...]

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This is right for progression.
Once people are on farm and confident, brd spot is just removed, since the boost given to casters by foe is smaller than the difference in dps between a brd and an additionnal nin or mnk.

Wow this thread is still going?

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

swift song IS a support ability. What the hell is it? DPS? No, you use it to aid the speed of your companions outside of combat. How is that not support?

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Non-combat uitility =/= combat support. As soon as you bring up DPS, the conversation is about combat balance and Swiftsong is irrelevant.

Bards dont really need more Weapon Dmg. What they should get is slight tweaks to encourage more active singing, more proactive MP management, and a less severe dps penalty for singing.

Support skills like Dragon Kick, Trick Attack, Virus, and Eye for an Eye affect the entire party and incur no dps penalty.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Yes i know how much 1 WD is but you havent lost 1 WD, current bard weapons still have 10-11% less WD than other weapons, just as they did when the game launched. This WD nerf you are talking about doesnt exist. I dont know what else to tell you other than look at my post again and try to understand.

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I'm saying that percentages don't really matter with small numbers, but this is going to keep increasing.
10-11% WD for every hit adds up.

The actual percentage bards contribute to a fight keeps going down with Ilvl increases - this is very concerning.

I've posted this before, but say a bard does 15% less damage than a DRG.
100000 damage vs 85000 damage.

Longer fights, more boss hp : Dragoon 500000 damage vs 425000 for bard.

It's the same percentage lower than the DRG contributes damage wise, but the damage contributed to the fight is awfully lower. THIS is what's getting worse each patch. They just need to draw a line and say BRD WD is -5 of melee. Not keep on widening the gap in WD because it's bullshit. At this rate, it's gonna be better to be TP starved than have a bard.

"Yo bard, we need you for Ballad / Paeon until everyone is familiar with the fight and doesn't die and healers know the clutch heal spots"
Then get kicked to the curb. It's already happening in extreme maximizer groups.

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Originally Posted by EdgeFayth

Once people are on farm and confident, brd spot is just removed, since the boost given to casters by foe is smaller than the difference in dps between a brd and an additionnal nin or mnk.

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I haven't seen an actual static that does this since the dawn of 2.0. The group is just able to run without the BRD if the BRD doesn't want to or isn't able to show up, instead of having to wait an hour for a competent pug one to show up in PF. Even if there is a rational reason to kick your BRD out just because "well we have the entire Coil on farm" it's not worth the friction and trouble of finding a new one when they become mandatory again for an extra 10% DPS.

'On farm' also doesn't mean 'TP and MP deficits stop existing'. T4 groups in 2.0 were 'on farm' for weeks and that didn't stop them from needing Foe and Ballad to help the group keep up with DPS and healing sustain checks. Outdated content has this problem for sure, but that crap doesn't matter.

If it's actually happening in 'maximizer' groups, then they aren't maximizing correctly and are an outlier to game balance.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

There are no support jobs in this game and Yoshi P has confirmed they're not going to be added any time soon. Thanks for playing.

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Yoshi said a lot of things but bards are in fact, a DPS/Support class. Healers are also a support class, we just call them healers lol.
People need to play Bard and learn what it entails. Sorry, it's NOT a FULL DPS class. A lot of these posts make me think a buttload of bards here don't even bother singing
because they're too worried about tons of damage and upset with reductions that help the rest of the party. It's a hybrid, so you're going to get halfies here.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Maybe you should learn more about your SMN and clear coil first, your own job have a fair share of issues.

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This is not my main account and I already know the dooms and glooms of SMN and how God awful they are right now. I already have played with Bards in coil as a healer
and they seem okay to me.
With what you said then, SMN needs to be priority then, since Bard isn't as nearly as bad as SMN because they are in a tight spot atm.
[Again don't bother looking into this characters Loadstone or whatever. >>;]

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Yoshi said a lot of things but bards are in fact, a DPS/Support class. Healers are also a support class, we just call them healers lol.
People need to play Bard and learn what it entails. Sorry, it's NOT a FULL DPS class. A lot of these posts make me think a buttload of bards here don't even bother singing
because they're too worried about tons of damage and upset with reductions that help the rest of the party. It's a hybrid, so you're going to get halfies here.

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A buttload of BRDs here who actually suggests something logical and non-game breaking balance (such as +1WD) are actually BRDs who played their job long enough and have conquered FCoB by now.

Maybe you should learn more about your SMN and clear coil first, your own job have a fair share of issues.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Yoshi said a lot of things but bards are in fact, a DPS/Support class. Healers are also a support class, we just call them healers lol.

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So we should let Bards fill the same roles in DF as healers, because they're all support classes, right?

So, since my coil group is 2 SMNs and a BRD (formerly 2 BRDs 1 SMN) and a NIN, that makes us super amazing right? :D

I'm a bard main, recently cleared t13 a few weeks back. I for one see no reason to remove the song penalty or boost WD whatsoever. One of the first things told to you in the Archer's guild is that arrows do not pack the punch of spears or sword, but the mobility, lack of positionals and party support skills make us a very versatile class that is almost required for progressing through endgame content. While we may not have the highest damage, we can still pull very high numbers when playing our class correctly. I for one can parse 517 dps on dummies (2 mins), can easily hit over 800+ dps on the pull with my cooldown rotation, and I sit at around 440-480 in fcob, which I don't consider very far off from the other dps in my static (Them being MNK, DRG and BLM).

The only gripe I have with the job is having to wait for a gcd to deactivate my songs, delaying an attack. SE please fix, I need those gcds for shooting things D:

It's true that ffxiv already have a lot of BRDs?
I want to level up a bard, but I don't want to wait my whole life to do stuffs (I'm assuming more than one bard is not needed)

:(

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Originally Posted by DSaint

It's true that ffxiv already have a lot of BRDs?
I want to level up a bard, but I don't want to wait my whole life to do stuffs (I'm assuming more than one bard is not needed)

:(

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It is a very popular job, but for regular duty finder content you can play perfectly fine as a bard, as it doesn't restrict what dps roles there can be within the instance, for example you can have 15 bards in WoD. If you are looking to get into endgame raids with groups however you may have a harder time as most groups only run with 1 bard. However it is your game, you are paying for it, so if you wish to play bard then I welcome you to our ranks.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

...

I've posted this before, but say a bard does 15% less damage than a DRG.
100000 damage vs 85000 damage.

Longer fights, more boss hp : Dragoon 500000 damage vs 425000 for bard.
...

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Last time you brought up numbers I tried to show that as long as the bard is doing a percentage of the dragoons damage overall balance does not change even though the gap in raw damage dealt grows.

Lets say your dragoon does 100 dps, and your bard does 85 dps against a boss that has 100,000 HP. The fight will last 540.54 seconds during which the dragoon will have done 54,054 damage and the bard would have done 45,945. The bard did 45.9% of the boss's total HP, and was at 85% of the dragoon's damage.

Lets say we increase the duration of the fight 5x to a boss with 500,000 HP. In this case the fight will last 2702 seconds during which the dragoon will have done 270,200 damage, and the bard would have done 229,670. The bard again did 45.9% of the total damage, and was 85% of the dragoon's damage.

Now lets scale up the dps 5x to 500 dps for the dragoon and 425 for the bard, and a 500,000 HP boss. This again comes out to 540.54 seconds for the fight, with the dragoon at 270,270 damage and the bard at 229,729. This is still 45.9% of the total damage and 85% of the dragoon's damage.

The above shows that duration and scaling are independent of the actual overall balance.

To maintain bards at whatever percentage lower than other dps, it is expected that the difference in weapon damage and stats between classes would grow because if stats grow by 5x, then the gap between the stats and weapon damage should also end up growing 5x which would lead to absolutely no change in balance relative to other classes. As you saw above, when the difference was 15 or the difference was 45, it didn't matter, the bard still did the same percentage of the boss's HP.

I play Bard and nothing else, because I like the idea of doing dmg from range and sniping mentality that comes from ranged clases. Every logic and reasoning suggests ranged classes should be the top dmg dealers. Melee clases are made for more dmg only because of cool factor. Im doing a hard job mentaly turning the blind eye to 3d dimensonal representaion of the world and trying to reason in 2d plane and in straight line process of things.
Personaly I dont believe in such thing as balance in todays so called 3d mmos, when actualy all of them are just flat 2.1d worlds where everhing happens in onedimensional straight line. So called fights are actualy just queeing your dmg dealing equation called a skill to reduce some arbitary number called hp. Even then number players dealing this dmg doesnt change any aspect of the fight or how is hp reduced. It always one equation at time.

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

Every logic and reasoning suggests ranged classes should be the top dmg dealers.

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There is a big difference between a bow and arrow and something like a 50cal rifle. Just because it's ranged does not mean it does a ton of damage. BB guns are a great example of how ranged does not mean power. That's not how this works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirionArmar

I'm a bard main, recently cleared t13 a few weeks back. I for one see no reason to remove the song penalty or boost WD whatsoever. One of the first things told to you in the Archer's guild is that arrows do not pack the punch of spears or sword, but the mobility, lack of positionals and party support skills make us a very versatile class that is almost required for progressing through endgame content. While we may not have the highest damage, we can still pull very high numbers when playing our class correctly. I for one can parse 517 dps on dummies (2 mins), can easily hit over 800+ dps on the pull with my cooldown rotation, and I sit at around 440-480 in fcob, which I don't consider very far off from the other dps in my static (Them being MNK, DRG and BLM).

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Quoted for logical thinking and reasoning and stating what I've said a million times already.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

I get out DPSd by bards so they're cool getting their WD nerfed again in 2.4

#OfficialForumLogic

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if I beat a bard in my raid group I'd kick them. I'm a damn tank they should beat me.
__________________

Now for the important part.....
I shall cast my most potent spell!

Hocus Pocus, AlakaMATH!

ilvl Brd Phy Phy/Brd Brd/Phy
135 52 58 11.54% -10.34%
130 51 57 11.76% -10.53%
120 49 54 10.20% -9.26%
115 48 53 10.42% -9.43%
110 46 51 10.87% -9.80%
100 44 49 11.36% -10.20%
95 42 47 11.90% -10.64%
90 41 46 12.20% -10.87%
80 40 44 10.00% -9.09%
70 37 41 10.81% -9.76%
60 35 39 11.43% -10.26%

THERE IS NO DOWNWARD TREND.

Since ilvl 60 the lowest bard WD has been compared to physical dps WD is -10.87% . Closest was -9.09%.

Funny note, if you adjust any of the bard WD numbers up or down by 1, it will fall under 9 or over 11%.

Bard weapon damage is always as close as possible tp 10% of melee WD at any given ilvl. Because weapon damage is a whole number, it has to be rounded. So it has always been between -9 to -11%.

There is no trend. SE gives you as close to -10% at all ilvls as possible to the nearest whole weapon damage.

So silence your irrational slippery slope ridiculousness. There is no downward slope of bard damage into oblivion. It's 10% less and never changed. Deal.

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Originally Posted by SirionArmar

I have a brain.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

So do I.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Moi aussi.

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FINALLY!! People who actually freaking get it!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Now for the important part.....
I shall cast my most potent spell!

Hocus Pocus, AlakaMATH!

So silence your irrational slippery slope ridiculousness. There is no downward slope of bard damage into oblivion. It's 10% less and never changed. Deal.

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\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/

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Originally Posted by SirionArmar

If you are looking to get into endgame raids with groups however you may have a harder time as most groups only run with 1 bard.

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No groups stack any class except Monk, though, unless they are desperate for tanks and healers, which is still almost never since tanking and healing jobs have interchangable gear. BRD is actually the only DPS class that is 'mandatory', to boot.