Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

I personally like the idea of the Class/Armory system for a few different reasons:
1) In terms of content, it's easier to have a class branch in multiple jobs (GLD to PLD or DRK, depending on other class levels for example) then building an entirely new class when they want to add new stuff.
2) In terms of PvP (coming in 2.0) it's much easier to balance 9 classes against each other then tweak the 5 abilities of jobs for PvP than it is to to balance what would eventually be 10+ classes (assuming they add jobs regularly).
3) I LOVE the fact that with the Armory system it's easier to solo. Having to party up in order to be able to get healing in FFXI really slowed the game down for me and the survivability of classes in WoW went from LOLEASY to stupid tough depending on which expansion you're looking at.

I haven't read the 25 pages of this thread but I like the story purposes beind the class to job system. It's reminiscent of the FF1 job upgrade (seen in other FFs as well such as 3) and I love the storyline of developing into your job. As for the actual game play mechanics of it and the practicality, I enjoy the differentiation between spread out abilities and more focused strengths/weaknesses.

I'd be in favor of it, however I also kinda like the idea of just random people random professionals becoming Final Fantasy heroes <,<;

Like I had the Idea for a web comic where like the party consists of real life people like a Doctor becomes the Whitemage, an Army veteran becomes the Warrior, a Physics teacher becomes the black mage XD You know..

So what I'm saying is I kinda like the idea of these real careers get blessed with the light of the crystal and become iconic final fantasy jobs in a weird way <,<;

The class system does nothing but hamstring the job system and limits overall creativity that can be put into job specializations and variations within the job itself.

It's like PLD and DRK bith coming from gladiator, sounds good on paper until you fealize that unless DRK is going to also be a tanky class gladiator lends nothing to any other roll than tanking. Boom, brick wall...not only that drk would be limited to single handed swords due to once again the class system being counter productive. This scenario plays out with bard as well making them need to focus on dps as well instead of being able to focus as a full buffer they need to juggle and make archer skills integral to the job.

What happens when or if they introduce a new job like blue mage who uses a whip or some weapon not i the armory system? We need to introduce a class for that job spending twice the ammount of time and effort and also need to make sure the class can balance with all the skills they can grab from others while still making Blue mage not feel like a upgrade from that class and be unique somehow. Forthe most parts jobs act as just a slight more ficused class without the freedom of choice but all the kimitations that came with it.

Classes really need to go or be further seperated from the job system, makenthe jobs wholy unique and not tied down to their origin class with half their skills originating from their class cunterparts.

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Originally Posted by Endigiont

I'd be in favor of it, however I also kinda like the idea of just random people random professionals becoming Final Fantasy heroes <,<;

Like I had the Idea for a web comic where like the party consists of real life people like a Doctor becomes the Whitemage, an Army veteran becomes the Warrior, a Physics teacher becomes the black mage XD You know..

So what I'm saying is I kinda like the idea of these real careers get blessed with the light of the crystal and become iconic final fantasy jobs in a weird way <,<;

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Would like to see jobs be moved to advanced jobs and classes moved to jobs. So you use jobs to unlock the advance job (just like in FFXI) and then you level it (just like in FFXI).

Then we can have freedom of jobs touching other jobs and if SE so wishes still limit advance jobs to two sub jobs.

Not only do we get more stuff to level (good to give Yoshi some breathing room when ARR rolls out) but advanced jobs can actually be such... Like Jynx said gladiator to paladin.. ok. gladiator to dark knight... lol lol lol wtf?
Current system:
If you want to make each job unique you have to make a class dedicated to it - so we are just creating two for one.

And every time you make class you have to dedicate one weapon to it and only one weapon.

I'd like to see weapon variability again honestly... (though the weapon part makes changing classes easy)

I can just about put up with the clunky class to job system in 1.0, it was stupid but fortunatly most people accepted that most classes were redundant once jobs were released and they were pushed aside. I just don't like how they're trying to push choice between classes and jobs with stuff like class-specific weapons when jobs are superior 99% of the time. A lot of those weapons would have gotten good use on jobs. >_<

I agree with OP, Jinxed and shouguy. I've disliked the armory system since day 1 alpha. The restrictions that comes with outweighs the freedom it's built around.

FFXI had 20 something unique jobs that had their own abilities catered to their roles. They also used multiple weapons some even sharing weapons and being played completely different (BST-WAR, DNC-THF, PLD-RDM)

SE will have to add a new type of spin for new classes just to expand the jobs unless they tack jobs to classes of opposite roles like the gladiator/dark knight example.

I'm all for looking into a better system.

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

I agree with OP, Jinxed and shouguy. I've disliked the armory system since day 1 alpha. The restrictions that comes with outweighs the freedom it's built around.

FFXI had 20 something unique jobs that had their own abilities catered to their roles. They also used multiple weapons some even sharing weapons and being played completely different (BST-WAR, DNC-THF, PLD-RDM)

SE will have to add a new type of spin for new classes just to expand the jobs unless they tack jobs to classes of opposite roles like the gladiator/dark knight example.

I'm all for looking into a better system.

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You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

What did they have in the beginning? 6

After their first expansion: 15

We have 3 DoL, 7 DoW amd DoM with 7 jobs and and and 8th on the way, and about 8 crafting jobs.

Even if you didnt count the classes that's 19 different style of play. 19 things to level to 50.

If you were just count the classes you fight with its 8 things to level to 50, which could result in up to16 different styles of play depending on the changes in ARR. (Arcanist to summoner tactics for example.)

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

I think I also read somewhere that its made to be difficult to solo with the jobs. idk tho

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I solo'd fine on PLD and Drg in 1.0. And never took on a class role, for the year they were implemented.

Seems like the Devs are insulting your gaming skills if you believe that.

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Originally Posted by Kailok

While I do agree with you that jobs should just take over, I also doubt that the class system will be taken away. There are too many people that enjoy the idea of the Armory System (gaining the skills from other classes).

I am interested to see how they manage to marry the Classes and Jobs in the future. I guess we'll see with time.

If not, I imagine it will be somewhat like FFT eventually:

Start off with standard classes and eventually there will be Jobs available based on the combinations of classes you have leveled.

I.E.:

CON + THM both level 30 will make RDM an available job to switch to.

At least, I'm hoping for something like FFT.

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This I would also like... FF:Tactic way of distributing skills and unlocking Jobs.

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Originally Posted by Felis

They are thinking about cross class = 1 job for later, too
Class A + Class B = Job Y

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Again, Tactic Job system.

If the dev team needed to re-write anything concerning guilds & classes now is the time. 5 years have past and a new era has begun. Things can definitely change for the better, to make sense of any changes they might do in the future.

What ever the Dev team comes up with Im sure its going to be great though.

Didn't read most of these but my personal opinion is that classes will stay but they will need to be majorly tweaked to see any long term usefulness. THM is still useful at 50, CNJ is not. When more skills/abilities come that fit or augment a CNJ's stats and usefulness, then it will shine brighter. Same with all classes. It's hard to see the usefulness of having variety of skills/abilities/spells when you only have 7 classes. New Jobs would help by either 1) creating more classes (=more abilities) to form the 1-1 ratio of class per job or 2) if SE decides to go 2 jobs per 1 class then the abilities of the current classes may need to be expanded to cover traits of those new jobs giving more variety to those playing classes.

All classes do is restrict weapon choices and make it so that jobs cant be completely unique and utilize a full array of fresh abilities. The class system killed bard. The thing I hate the most though is weapon restrictions. Why can't my war use a gsword, dual axes or dual swords if I want to? The thing I liked about 11 was the choices n weapons u could use on each job.

Full action overhaul in arr so I'll make a decision based on that. 1.0 class job system was seriously flawed IMO though.

Classes got skills that would be great for party play while some jobs got many situational skills and some skills that are just as good when solo.

The only class I would take over a job in 1.0 solo would be archer, maybe CNj

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Originally Posted by Azurus

All classes do is restrict weapon choices and make it so that jobs cant be completely unique and utilize a full array of fresh abilities. The class system killed bard. The thing I hate the most though is weapon restrictions. Why can't my war use a gsword, dual axes or dual swords if I want to? The thing I liked about 11 was the choices n weapons u could use on each job.

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You mean the weapons that were never as effective as the great axe in Capped skill? Or the hand to hand weapons that red mage had no skill for? Or how about war hammers that only a whm could use? A bard using any feasible weapon in ffxi would get laughed out of town. There were some silly allowances and restrictions in ffxi, some that would get me tossed out of a party as a red mage simply because I didn't have the right staff.

You act as if bards has never wielded a bow before in a game. That is not the case.

I think SE got it right with the class/job system, first you got to lvl the class and earn the job which made the game more
fun then you had to earn the big skills from the job while still useing class skill to help with the job so no class ment no job and no real test to see if you would take the job/class to the top to get everything like the best skills and af

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Originally Posted by Kallera

You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

What did they have in the beginning? 6

After their first expansion: 15

We have 3 DoL, 7 DoW amd DoM with 7 jobs and and and 8th on the way, and about 8 crafting jobs.

Even if you didnt count the classes that's 19 different style of play. 19 things to level to 50.

If you were just count the classes you fight with its 8 things to level to 50, which could result in up to16 different styles of play depending on the changes in ARR. (Arcanist to summoner tactics for example.)

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This is incorrect fyi. FFXI started with 12 jobs. 6 basic and 6 advanced.

The first expansion RotZ only released 3 new advanced jobs (DRG SAM and NIN) bringing it up to 15.

Ive also thought about the class system and how it is only really a means to an ends now (unless they have changed it in 2.0).

First off forget the notion of removing classes altogether, that just wont happen. One idea ive thought of that could work is:

Classes max out at level 50 and dont level any higher, once a new level cap is introduced only jobs will continue to level past 50 also at this time you will have 2 choices of jobs for each class, with the second job choice unlocked at 50. for example leveling archer unlocks bard at 30 then at 50 archer the ranger is unlocked allowing you to play either bard or ranger jobs past 50. This allows classes to still be kept with the core skills going to level 50 used by both bard and ranger and serve as the means to an ends which is the leveling to 50 process. Past level 50 bard and ranger get more unique skills from each other plus all the core archer skills up to 50. This way classes serve their purpose and dont have to be removed entirely and are mainly for players leveling to 50.

Whats with all the hate on the classes. Its a stepping stone, its content, you are actually requesting less content? what are you gaining by making it job only? There are many mmos out with branching paths for class play and advanced trees. This is in the same line but you can change back freely. Even for the sake of story and lore, keep the classes, dont care if I never use lancer again, it has its place here.

boy yall need to get off yall soapbox and get over it. classes are not going anywhere. some of yall are still stuck on using ff11 mechanics with weapon usage and jobs. ff14 needs its own identity. imo classes to jobs is the best thing to happen to ff14.

I think they should make more like ff1 lol start off with a job (black mage) do some quest an upgrade it to adv job (black wizard) no weapon restrictions what so ever except the ones made for that job staffs etc. no mages with swords no dd with staffs

People mentioning ffxi and using different weapons on a job need to remember that that was not a choice, there was a right and wrong. War using dagger = fail. yes you had the option but who does it? its a fake choice. Example: FFXIV warrior maxes out INT and MND = WEAK. Its not a true choice because there is a right and wrong answer, its a calculated descision.

Remember, SE made the armoury system. The can bend it how they wish, if drk does come from gla they dont HAVE to use swords they can change it however they like, and even if they do turn drk into a semi-tank there is nothing wrong with that other then your hurt nostalgia "drk is DD /cry". BRD has been changed from the pathetic role it was in ffxi, lets face it, very few truly liked bard for what it was, just how they got praised for being the buffer bitch.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

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They didn't come out right away, agreed. However it is extremely important to build systems that can be expanded upon logically and efficiently. The current job system is one that will just get messier and less unique as time goes on - it can go on.. but as SE has the opportunity to change it they might as well before in ARR release its just called a bad feature.

(Perhaps in ARR beta there are bigger changes to classes)

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Originally Posted by lolodin

I think they should make more like ff1 lol start off with a job (black mage) do some quest an upgrade it to adv job (black wizard) no weapon restrictions what so ever except the ones made for that job staffs etc. no mages with swords no dd with staffs

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Never knew why mages with small swords was a problem XD.. I mean Gandolf.. common.. great staff great sword dual wielding badass...

But yeah I think a more FFT/FFXI job system approach would be better.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

People mentioning ffxi and using different weapons on a job need to remember that that was not a choice, there was a right and wrong. War using dagger = fail. yes you had the option but who does it? its a fake choice. Example: FFXIV warrior maxes out INT and MND = WEAK. Its not a true choice because there is a right and wrong answer, its a calculated descision.

Remember, SE made the armoury system. The can bend it how they wish, if drk does come from gla they dont HAVE to use swords they can change it however they like, and even if they do turn drk into a semi-tank there is nothing wrong with that other then your hurt nostalgia "drk is DD /cry". BRD has been changed from the pathetic role it was in ffxi, lets face it, very few truly liked bard for what it was, just how they got praised for being the buffer bitch.

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The lack of 'choice' between 'the choices' available is SE/The Dev teams fault, not the systems. And there where some pretty good off the norm for that job weapons, but I agree it wasn't as often or as many as I would have liked.

Considering the system is unable to make descisions and upgrade itself.. of course its the devs "fault". But im not sure what you mean since there is nothing wrong with removing false choices. But people requested things like this, they removed stat allocation and players wanted it back badly so they got it. I guess if players realy really want to use less useful weapons for their job Im ok with it but Im betting youre still going to get the WAR uses GA or gtfo mentality of ffxi.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

Considering the system is unable to make descisions and upgrade itself.. of course its the devs "fault". But im not sure what you mean since there is nothing wrong with removing false choices. But people requested things like this, they removed stat allocation and players wanted it back badly so they got it. I guess if players realy really want to use less useful weapons for their job Im ok with it but Im betting youre still going to get the WAR uses GA or gtfo mentality of ffxi.

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False choices will always exist - the thing is not to 'attempt' to remove them but make the player satisfied in making them (and at the same time make them think they didnt make a false choice). Even if you made a system that appeared to be 100% false choice-less at face value if you ever made a given scenario like fighting X boss then more false choices would appear.

Also in FFXI there were spears that samurai could use that were awesome - the freedom of weapon choice wasn't always a facade. I said it was the dev's fault for making so few choices. But there are not that many weapons and unlike WoW the weapons didnt /roll stats so that is part of the reason.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

What did they have in the beginning? 6

After their first expansion: 15

We have 3 DoL, 7 DoW amd DoM with 7 jobs and and and 8th on the way, and about 8 crafting jobs.

Even if you didnt count the classes that's 19 different style of play. 19 things to level to 50.

If you were just count the classes you fight with its 8 things to level to 50, which could result in up to16 different styles of play depending on the changes in ARR. (Arcanist to summoner tactics for example.)

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DoL and DoH jobs do not count, they can't fight and they have no cross class abilities, they may be called jobs but they are something else, maybe they should be called trades instead.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

False choices will always exist - the thing is not to 'attempt' to remove them but make the player satisfied in making them (and at the same time make them think they didnt make a false choice). Even if you made a system that appeared to be 100% false choice-less at face value if you ever made a given scenario like fighting X boss then more false choices would appear.

Also in FFXI there were spears that samurai could use that were awesome - the freedom of weapon choice wasn't always a facade. I said it was the dev's fault for making so few choices. But there are not that many weapons and unlike WoW the weapons didnt /roll stats so that is part of the reason.

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I think you misunderstand what i mean by choice in video games. We are all faced with events labeled as choices in our day to day lives, what to wear, what to eat, practically everything you do. None of this has anything to do with video game choice in regards to development.

Reactions and calculations are not choices. Boss battles provide no choice unless the outcome effects your character permanently in some way. Im not saying using false choice in games is bad, there are plenty of fun titles that decieve the player into thinking they had an option when the outcome is always the same, or you fail because you made the wrong choice. But we dont need it in this system imo.

SAM using polearm was in special situations against mobs weak to piercing and can hardly be considered a standard or viable permanent option, all sam will always have a great katana as well(at least when I played).

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The class system does nothing but hamstring the job system and limits overall creativity that can be put into job specializations and variations within the job itself.

It's like PLD and DRK bith coming from gladiator, sounds good on paper until you fealize that unless DRK is going to also be a tanky class gladiator lends nothing to any other roll than tanking. Boom, brick wall...not only that drk would be limited to single handed swords due to once again the class system being counter productive. This scenario plays out with bard as well making them need to focus on dps as well instead of being able to focus as a full buffer they need to juggle and make archer skills integral to the job.

What happens when or if they introduce a new job like blue mage who uses a whip or some weapon not i the armory system? We need to introduce a class for that job spending twice the ammount of time and effort and also need to make sure the class can balance with all the skills they can grab from others while still making Blue mage not feel like a upgrade from that class and be unique somehow. Forthe most parts jobs act as just a slight more ficused class without the freedom of choice but all the kimitations that came with it.

Classes really need to go or be further seperated from the job system, makenthe jobs wholy unique and not tied down to their origin class with half their skills originating from their class cunterparts.

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PROBLEM? :D classes ain't going anywhere

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

I think you misunderstand what i mean by choice in video games. We are all faced with events labeled as choices in our day to day lives, what to wear, what to eat, practically everything you do. None of this has anything to do with video game choice in regards to development.

Reactions and calculations are not choices. Boss battles provide no choice unless the outcome effects your character permanently in some way. Im not saying using false choice in games is bad, there are plenty of fun titles that decieve the player into thinking they had an option when the outcome is always the same, or you fail because you made the wrong choice. But we dont need it in this system imo.

SAM using polearm was in special situations against mobs weak to piercing and can hardly be considered a standard or viable permanent option, all sam will always have a great katana as well(at least when I played).

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Nah I got you. I just feel like its futile to kill entirely rather accept the issue and embelish it instead.

If you try to kill false choices to the bone you get a barren or at least clone piece game, in the end players will not even make any choice because only one makes sense.

The polearms were viable in situation - but I already told you that I felt FFXI dev team didnt include -enough- choices with their free system.

I agreed that in FFXI most of it was a obvious false choices. However it doesnt have to be so. Boss battles offer choice as well - just because something is effective doesnt mean it must be done or is done. Like breaking horns in 1.0 or coming BLM when you should have came THM.

False choice is useful- it just shouldnt be obvious (and when it comes apparent it should be offseted by the enjoyment of that choice like "Oh well, I love using katanas - I dont care that this weapon is a little better for this boss").

Edit:
Want to add since I've been using the word you used (false choice) - what I'm looking for is greater variation not purposely including "worse" elements. You can attempt to design compareables and not clones. However designing compareables will make a false choice depending on event. Clones and 100% statics will remove all false choices but that is extremely boring.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

PROBLEM? :D classes ain't going anywhere

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Did your crystal ball tell you that?

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Originally Posted by Thebard

Did your crystal ball tell you that?

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Game lore and upcoming classes told me that.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

What did they have in the beginning? 6

After their first expansion: 15

We have 3 DoL, 7 DoW amd DoM with 7 jobs and and and 8th on the way, and about 8 crafting jobs.

Even if you didnt count the classes that's 19 different style of play. 19 things to level to 50.

If you were just count the classes you fight with its 8 things to level to 50, which could result in up to16 different styles of play depending on the changes in ARR. (Arcanist to summoner tactics for example.)

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You missed the point of my post. It was not about how many jobs there were in that game but how diverse each were and how they were not restricted to a single weapon. Also about how much work is going to have to be put into XIV to add new jobs because they'll first have to add a new weapon for the new class then they can begin work on the new jobs.

Should they choose to tack the job to a pre-existing class it'll more then likely be limited to it's role with the handful of job skills it'll have with a bunch of non-role abilities from the class it came from.

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

You missed the point of my post. It was not about how many jobs there were in that game but how diverse each were and how they were not restricted to a single weapon. Also about how much work is going to have to be put into XIV to add new jobs because they'll first have to add a new weapon for the new class then they can begin work on the new jobs.

Should they choose to tack the job to a pre-existing class it'll more then likely be limited to it's role with the handful of job skills it'll have with a bunch of non-role abilities from the class it came from.

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Im sorry that ninjas are no longer going to be stuck using swords until level 30 to do any appreciable damage, really, I am. But I'll gladly suffer the "boring" world of the whm with aerora than put up with a dark staff being required for me to sit to a patry's satisfaction, and discussions about the "melee rdm".

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Im sorry that ninjas are no longer going to be stuck using swords until level 30 to do any appreciable damage, really, I am. But I'll gladly suffer the "boring" world of the whm with aerora than put up with a dark staff being required for me to sit.

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Yea well I'm sorry I played the game for fun and enjoyed whipping out my WHM club and going to town on mobs when partying with my friends, I enjoyed using Polearms on Sam, I also enjoyed using multiple weapons on War even if they weren't socially accepted as "The Best".

The only thing I did not enjoy was the need to skill them all up which I did to cap for every weapon in that game.

It will be sad when SE either decides to release a Iconic Job and give it a non Iconic Weapon because it is already in use or make it apart of the class using the weapon but at the same time destroying most of the Job's identity doing so.

I hope they alter Jobs to be seperate from the class system but considered a advanced version fo that class since I am 122% certain that the Armoury system is not going anywhere. The best they can do is drop a class/job revamp that gives jobs more then a handful of abilities PRIOR to increasing the level cap so they are not 80% reliant on the class abilities to perform their roles.

Example: Seeing as DRK is hinted to be from Gladiator instead of giving DRK 5 Skills and a ton of GLA abilities they could give DRK 10ish abilities (set the number to whatever) and introduce Job Specific passive on-top/instead of the class passives. Also make Scythe or Greatsword a DRK only Weapon so when one is equipped job is instantly changed from xyz to DRK auto equipping job stone and such.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Game lore and upcoming classes told me that.

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No having your own head up your ass told you that. Classes are going somewhere, but we just don't know where yet. Have you even read any of my posts in this thread? Seems to me you like the look of your own typing too much to have a sensible debate.

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Originally Posted by Thebard

No having your own head up your ass told you that. Classes are going somewhere, but we just don't know where yet. Have you even read any of my posts in this thread? Seems to me you like the look of your own typing too much to have a sensible debate.

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You tell someone they have their "head up their ass", and then preach to them about their inability to have a sensible debate?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nRGCBJ98wD...ttle_black.jpg

Am I the only one that likes classes the way they are? The only problem I could possibly have is the limited choice of weapons you could equip. Maybe if, for example, a Marauder could also equip Greatswords, then we'd be able to allow for jobs like Dark Knight. Besides that, the basic idea behind the system is fine.

Edit: Also, stop attacking each other. This thread went full-retard very quickly.

Removing classes would be retarded.

Have you played THM and BLM? They play very differently.

What this thread should be about is making some classes be more distinct than their jobs.

Example: marauder has no upsides from warrior.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Removing classes would be retarded.

Have you played THM and BLM? They play very differently.

What this thread should be about is making some classes be more distinct than their jobs.

Example: marauder has no upsides from warrior.

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Yeah, THM and BLM definately do play differently. Having a bit more distinction between classes and jobs can't really hurt. I like the class/job system seperate, myself.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

Am I the only one that likes classes the way they are? The only problem I could possibly have is the limited choice of weapons you could equip. Maybe if, for example, a Marauder could also equip Greatswords, then we'd be able to allow for jobs like Dark Knight. Besides that, the basic idea behind the system is fine.

Edit: Also, stop attacking each other. This thread went full-retard very quickly.

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I like the classes but I just absolutely loathe the weapon restrictions and lack of seperation between jobs and classes. I mean a DRG is just a lancer who took a few gymnastics classes and learned to leap like a pro. WAR is just a MRD... PLD is just a GLA with a few decent healing abilities.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Removing classes would be retarded.

Have you played THM and BLM? They play very differently.

What this thread should be about is making some classes be more distinct than their jobs.

Example: marauder has no upsides from warrior.

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That's what I am hoping for I think THM/BLM are the only ones with different playstyles and still not by that much.