Ranged DPS dominating Slaughter Mode

I would give Bards a LB that's a short-term group DPS % buff and maybe a mana regen buff. Not because I think it would be better than their heal, but because I think they would use it A LOT more often. Which benefits me anyway.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

stones to fight for real?? u mean how blm sit behind 10 ppl n spam sleep + comet?? yeah real pvp skills right there :P

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If your healer was worth his salt he could esuna/leech you.

If you were worth your salt you could use sleep resistance potions.

Either the Sleep trait needs to just not work in PvP, or we need to go the Swiftcast route and apply large magic damage reduction during and just after the sleep debuff. I think we can agree that sleep should be smartly-applied CC like in PvE, not just an easy way to set up your GC's orbital kinetic weapon spam.

For those who feel the Bard adrenaline attack should be different, I'll remind you that Physical Ranged DPS is getting their own set of Limit Breaks in 3.0, so they'll presumably get a new Adrenaline attack as well.

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

For those who feel the Bard adrenaline attack should be different, I'll remind you that Physical Ranged DPS is getting their own set of Limit Breaks in 3.0, so they'll presumably get a new Adrenaline attack as well.

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I assume the reason Bard still has healer LB is because there is no animation for a Physical Range DPS LB yet. All of the current 'adrenlines' are mostly rehashed Limit Breaks with different names. Hopefully Bard and Machinist gets a different LB come 3.0, and SE isn't just teasing us...

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

Either the Sleep trait needs to just not work in PvP, or we need to go the Swiftcast route and apply large magic damage reduction during and just after the sleep debuff. I think we can agree that sleep should be smartly-applied CC like in PvE, not just an easy way to set up your GC's orbital kinetic weapon spam.

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Given how this thread has been going, your comment is nonsense, how dare you spout your logic here.

Why not just have BLMs get a charm effect where they auto-follow the nearest enemy melee and have a pacification effect?

When I play Slaughter on my Blk mage, I guess I prefer to use Freeze prior to Meteor spams, because sleep is over rated.

Loving the OP feeling since 2.5

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Why not just have BLMs get a charm effect where they auto-follow the nearest enemy melee and have a pacification effect?

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According to a lot of people in this thread, this is exactly how casters are supposed to act in PvP. If they actually avoid getting hit then they are considered weak and stupid.

its funny how so many people are still arguing about how comet isnt op at all considering the devs have already stated its not working how they intended lmao

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

its funny how so many people are still arguing about how comet isnt op at all considering the devs have already stated its not working how they intended lmao

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Most people are laughing at melee and bard acting like they care about balance while dominating secure for months telling casters to L2P.
Multiple cometor is OP but the hypocrisy is funny.
Reading about melee and bard crying over the fact they can't tunnel vision casters in slaughter is the only reason i still read this thread

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Originally Posted by Domira

Situational is bad. Consistency is good.

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Consistency(spelling) wouldn't be an issue if you didn't share your LB with a 25k-30k damage burst. Which is why having 3 different LB in a party would solve most issues
an aoe 50% damage reduction is amazing. Just not good enough to use it over a big damage burst, but on its own that thing is amazing

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Originally Posted by hallena

Consistency(spelling) wouldn't be an issue if you didn't share your LB with a 25k-30k damage burst. Which is why having 3 different LB in a party would solve most issues
an aoe 50% damage reduction is amazing. Just not good enough to use it over a big damage burst, but on its own that thing is amazing

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Hmmm I can't say that I agree. I think it would be great if it was more frequent...kind of like protection from guild wars 2. Tank LB is the weakest of the bunch imo. It would be more useful if in addition to the damage reduction, it grants cc and debuff immunity.

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Originally Posted by Domira

Hmmm I can't say that I agree. I think it would be great if it was more frequent...kind of like protection from guild wars 2. Tank LB is the weakest of the bunch imo. It would be more useful if in addition to the damage reduction, it grants cc and debuff immunity.

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But that would mostly only fix the pvp issue of it. pve wise it would be just as situational or used by overgeared group to bypass mechanic since the dps check would no longer be a problem.
I'm not saying Tank LB shouldn't change at all. but its pretty hard to make all LB equal when they all share the same bar (for pve) in slaughter they have the freedom to do whatever they want with it

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Originally Posted by hallena

But that would mostly only fix the pvp issue of it. pve wise it would be just as situational or used by overgeared group to bypass mechanic since the dps check would no longer be a problem.
I'm not saying Tank LB shouldn't change at all. but its pretty hard to make all LB equal when they all share the same bar (for pve) in slaughter they have the freedom to do whatever they want with it

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LB would be better if it worked like Divine Points in Aion. They would need to change it so everyone classes limit breakers are unique though.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Most people are laughing at melee and bard acting like they care about balance while dominating secure for months telling casters to L2P.
Multiple cometor is OP but the hypocrisy is funny.
Reading about melee and bard crying over the fact they can't tunnel vision casters in slaughter is the only reason i still read this thread

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By most people he refers to himself and that other awesome black mage.

Someone proposed to make the Caster LB a Single target LB, I know it would fix a lot of problem, but I feel like caster won't do their work :/
Other than make its cast time a little longer I hope they wont balance his power, something like "The center of the AoE deal the maximum damage, more far the target is and less damage he will receive",
so you won't zerg an etire party and after even a weak hit you will be unbound/awake.

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Originally Posted by Evtrai

By most people he refers to himself and that other awesome black mage.

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Seeing as how this thread is nothing but 3-4 person arguing, most people refering as 2 person doesnt sound innacurate

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

3. at least 4 slots of vitality gear that is completely useless to me except for one stat.

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Get crafted MND accessories, meld Vit onto them. Obviously....

Also point peeps are making is that you are calling out players who play Melee in slaughter with zero experience yourself of what they face (not talknig what experience you have in other games as that is irrelevant).

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Get crafted MND accessories, meld Vit onto them. Obviously....

Also point peeps are making is that you are calling out players who play Melee in slaughter with zero experience yourself of what they face (not talknig what experience you have in other games as that is irrelevant).

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Aren't materia melds nullified in frontlines? I'm not sure I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Evtrai

Aren't materia melds nullified in frontlines? I'm not sure I could be wrong.

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I'm pretty sure they are ineffective. Ilvl 80 or less stuff may not be, I have no clue.

Reminds me, SE please raise the ilvl sync to atleast i100.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

I'm pretty sure they are ineffective. Ilvl 80 or less stuff may not be, I have no clue.

Reminds me, SE please raise the ilvl sync to atleast i100.

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But I love my I80 twinked BLK/MRD sets!

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Get crafted MND accessories, meld Vit onto them. Obviously....

Also point peeps are making is that you are calling out players who play Melee in slaughter with zero experience yourself of what they face (not talknig what experience you have in other games as that is irrelevant).

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Melds won't work in Frontlines. Need Vitality on the items to start.

Melee is melee.

I can see them coming out with a new map/mode that has a higher ilvl, but Frontlines is easy-entry as far as getting people to PvP, and we need that. I know it would be disappointing that I'd have to gear up in Wolf's Den to even have a chance of attending the large Frontline Fights. But that's just a newbie speaking.

An additional mode, with another map and rule set and higher ilvl. Keep the Frontlines Roulette with better Wolf Mark/PvP Exp rewards to entice people to use it to catch up or get more wolf Marks

I play a DRG, so any corrections to this would be appreciated.

It seems that the main difference between slaughter and secure is the LB system. I don't believe there is any real difference in skills for the two. In 24 man secure. Most everyone is in the center anyway. Still a lot of sleeps and Fluid Auras. Only thing is, BLMs can't group up and spam cometeors in secure. It means melee have a chance of getting in closer to do real damage. With CDs, its not a cake walk though. BLMs can swiftcast-sleep-sprint. I also believe there is Night Wing (Instant cast AOE sleep). Using those would allow to put to sleep 1-several people to sleep before sprinting away.

Also, casters have Equanimity. It allows casting without interruption. I don't know if it works with LBs though.

As a DRG, yes I dominate in close range, but also suck in ranged. With two skills for sleep, I have to keep 2 skills on my hotbar to compensate for the flow of battle. When one uses sprint, I combine sprint-invigorate to chase without losing. I keep spineshatter for a stun to catch up to them as well. I have Fetter Ward and Purify. The first prevents harmful ailments like sleep from sticking to me. The other removes ailments once. However, casters can still hide behind their alliance team for casting and flee before the fight gets to them in secure. They just don't have cometeors to spam in there so they have to fight a different way.

In slaughter, Cometeor is definitely OP. I've padded up to the center right into a swarm of 5 incoming LBs. The cast timer seems shorter for Cometeor than it is for Raw Destruction, and it seems it builds up faster too. As a melee, I don't have the luxury of hiding behind a wall of tanks and other players to cast from safety. I'm right there in the heat of it all. It means I'm much more susceptible to Tank CCs, WHM binding FA, sleep spells. The two PVP skills I mentioned can't compensate for all that when cometeors are being shot off so frequently. With my LB, I pretty much have to get close. Unless the target is CC'd and stuck there, they can move and flee to interrupt the cast. I'm either stuck waiting for spineshatter, or running in and hoping I can get it off. With the cast timer longer than it is for cometeor, it becomes a hassle trying to use it. Not to mention that I can only hit 1 player while they can hit multiple.

At a distance, casters have the advantage. Attacking from range and ranged CC skills. If I get up close to you, expect a right pounding and lance through your chest. I will catch you once I get close. It's the nature of PVP

However, the only thing broken here is the Cometeor. The cast time is too short for sufficient reaction time, and the frequency is x.x.....everything else is a matter of coordination, using your pvp skills, and not sucking. The caster class itself does not need a nerf, just the individual LB for casters. It is expected since its the first time they are using such a system.

A few things...

Certain Balance Changes will need to accompany many/all of these changes, but they're the right changes for PVP overall IMO.


1) Cast-Interruption needs its own Diminishing Returns.

Say, after 3 spells are interrupted, a caster is immune from Cast-Interruption for 3 seconds (with a 15 second internal cooldown or something).

Playing a Caster just isn't fun when stray arrows keep pegging you. Equanimity & Surecast aren't good enough solutions. And yes, I know how to position properly, to kite melee opponents, & to time my interruption-immunity spells--it's still not that easy.

Ultimately, this change would promote game health & joy--a lot more people would hate PVP less if they didn't feel like they could never get a cast off.


2) Non-Tank Melee DPS need their PVP Gear defensive values increased across the board (Slaughter Mode ONLY).

I actually main MNK/NIN for PVP, I know the struggle. I know to play very opportunistically & weave in & out of combat appropriately. But its still a bit too harsh on us.

If just for Slaughter, this would work wonders.

This too would benefit game health & joy--a lot less people would rage that they can't do anything as a melee (or how they explain they basically just have to sit on the sidelines until they're dead).


3) Certain CC's need even harsher Diminishing Returns.

Looking at you Bind/Sleep. The idea here, and with all of them, is PLAYER FREEDOM. More action, less inaction.


4) the Heliodrome needs to break Sleep.

It currently doesn't which gives BLM comps a huge edge on the Heliodrome.


BONUS OPINION: Ninja needs their Mudra Cast-Timer increased (again, Slaughter Only). 5s before falling off is too harsh when there's so much chain-CC/sleep going about.

How do people feel about this topic now that caster LBs have been fixed (or nerfed, however you see it) in the latest hotfix? I haven't had the chance to try PvP yet today.

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BONUS OPINION: Ninja needs their Mudra Cast-Timer increased (again, Slaughter Only). 5s before falling off is too harsh when there's so much chain-CC/sleep going about.

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Although I would love for that to happen, people need ways to mitigate/avoid NIN burst, interrupting them mid-ninjutsu cast is a really good way to do so. It's very easy to do on NA/EU servers i.e. mudra lag (JP servers have 0 lag on mudras <.< >.> <.< >.> -.- T^T).

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How do people feel about this topic now that caster LBs have been fixed (or nerfed, however you see it) in the latest hotfix? I haven't had the chance to try PvP yet today.

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I have not tried either, but if its the same cast time as LB1 in FL Secure it'll allow people to mitigate the damage re-actively (Tank LB, not sure if Tetsudo/Focalization reduces the damage) and make it possible to actually dodge it.

To sum it all up:
I started out the new slaughter mode playing healer, it was fun.
Then I tried dragoon. It was bad.
So I tried summoner. WAY BETTER. SO FUN. I used my LB at least two times. It's harder to be stupid and mess up as a caster. Plus there's that LB. Even killing only two guys with that can achieve you easy victory. Plus a buff to make it charge faster.

Slaughter mode was neat in theory, but is not even the slightest bit fair in comparison to secure. If squeenix was going for an unbalanced, unfair massacre, instead of a regular massacre? They got it.

I'm going to play secure forever. Cause it's fun.

I... don't think I have a dog in this fight.

As a tank, it pretty much feels the same. Run interference, zone off enemies, be a tanky PITA that keeps casters on their toes.


Yeah, the Caster LB is harsh, but nobody complains when smart tank LBs change the outcomes of fights, and they're fairly powerful on their own. The most annoying thing to me is the chain CC keeping me from being in the fight at all. The fact that both of these issues can come from one class, however does seem to be a bit of a balance issue.

However, I had a different idea in mind. Instead of giving a flat nerf to Debuff times and BLM damage. (Maybe a small cast time increase on Cometeor.) Instead, impose a magical resistance buff when under crowd control effects (Bind, Repose, Sleep) to encourage more intelligent use of the skill. This way the crowd of Black Mages can't simply chain sleep/aoes and Limit breaks on each other without hurting their damage output.

Again, just an idea I'd throw into the crowd. Mages are annoying to tackle, but not overcome-able from a tank perspective. They just seem to have an overlapping priority with healers as far as targets to harass. I'm still a blatant newbie at pvp, but my experiences with Mages are usually just as mixed as any other class.

.

I think SE should release a smaller version of the FL map for 8v8v8 instances.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Although I would love for that to happen, people need ways to mitigate/avoid NIN burst, interrupting them mid-ninjutsu cast is a really good way to do so. It's very easy to do on NA/EU servers i.e. mudra lag (JP servers have 0 lag on mudras <.< >.> <.< >.> -.- T^T).

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See, the thing is though: it's far too easy to do in Slaughter. I agree, people do need ways but I don't think it'd hurt to up it to 6-8 seconds for *Slaughter Only* (considering the sheer amount of chain-CC).

However, this would be unneeded if they implemented my other suggestions like more severe Diminishing Returns.

Melee, I just wanna point this out.

You are NOT the intended target for the caster LB at least 70% of the time...do you know who is? The healer you're trying to kill. (or caster). So the funny thing is, you are leaving your 'safety net' to go run into lets say 'Adder' territory to gank a healer...while behind enemy lines (which already dangerous), the OTHER team, lets say Flames also decides 'lets get the Adder healer' And you get squashed...not only because you ran out of your teams heal range, but because you got hap-hazardly targeted by the 3rd team's casters (the one you aren't actively attacking).

The other 30% of the time, it's because the Caster LB spam is happening on the middle node and you either have to stand in range, or attack something else. To be fair though, your team is doing the same things to the other teams.

By the way, your role, more than any other (esp you sneaky, stealthy ninja's), can most easily slip behind enemy lines and single-handedly take down a healer or caster faster than any other healers on that team can perceive what's happening. I NEVER got LB'd by a Melee in Secure mode w/o at least seeing them incoming...and even then, they tended to only be successful if I had blown my CD's. But in Slaughter, 2 times as blm and once as whm so far a stray melee has gotten behind me and LB'd before I even knew what was up (in part because there IS so much chaos/dodging of Comedor's going on).

I agree that the caster LB needs to be adjusted a bit (as does SE and they will fix it). But I think many melee are missing their true shining star moments/haven't quite adjusted to this system yet....or don't realize which team is actually killing you.

Healers are targets...nothing has changed. You are programmed from Secure mode to seek us out and destroy us first...the problem is, in Secure mode, typically it's Team A vs. Team B. Sure, there's a little spill-over mid when nodes spawn, but since Secure doesn't have personal LB's it's really not as much of a dodge fest for everyone. But other than when mid, it's just not likely for you to face 5 Adders, and 8 Maelstrom at the same time while both you and the Adders are trying to kill the Maels healers...and the Adder's BLM lb targeted on the Mael's healer also happens to catch you in the cross-hairs. And I think it's THIS, that is really frustrating you all...you are trying to do your job (kill Healer), and you get LB'd...which is frustrating b/c you already stuck your neck out a great deal by leaving the safety of your team/healer's range to go attack the other team's healer in the first place. But the team that likely killed you, was NOT the team you were attacking. It's the 3-way nature of the battle that is messing with your mojo.

My guess, and again I tend to play mostly healer with some 'caster because I don't feel like carrying the damn load of healing while getting punched in the face today' mixed in, is that if melee come up with a different 'kill target number 1' outside of the other teams healer in the middle of the pack, it might start turning in your favor. After all, the squishyness of casters, bards etc did not change....and the interesting thing about dd's (esp ranged dd's), is they don't tend to notice what's right next to them as much as across the field. Burn a couple of them first (especially the ones that stray off/are on the sides)...make healers blow cd's on raising them/healing them back to health....or at least by burning people on the edges, you can pull healers out of hiding/trick them into watching health bars and alliance members more than their own surroundings. Then when their (healers)attention is turned, go in for the kill.

I am no melee expert, but I'm telling you how I've seen some melee be successful/ kill my distracted rear-end. Still I'm a decent, and for the most part, hard to take down healer...so when someone actually kills me, I take mental notes on how it all happened...not just 'what skill did they use' but where was I/what was I doing/did I have CD's/where was my focus/did they have assistance etc so I can make sure to counter-act it should a similiar situation happen again (so that next time you might NOT kill me).

PS: One especially sneaky Monk totally ganked our teams healer by coming up our teams ramp behind him and stunning him+ LB'd him =deadness. (IE the healer likely didn't even see it coming nor did anyone on our alliance until it was too late....I only saw this show b/c I was running back to my team as blm avoiding... a caster AoE :P) I mean, it took maybe like 3 seconds for that death to happen. And no one saw it in time...let alone had enough time to react to it.

But that death required stealth, and a plan.
And the luck that the other team didn't at the same time, target the same healer with comedor.

That all said, 1 caster LB in Slaughter hasn't ever killed me. (It takes 2 to kill my blm, and 3 in a row for it to down my whm). One Melee LB almost always does.

Just food for thought/observations after the first week of rounds.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Again, just an idea I'd throw into the crowd. Mages are annoying to tackle, but not overcome-able from a tank perspective. They just seem to have an overlapping priority with healers as far as targets to harass. I'm still a blatant newbie at pvp, but my experiences with Mages are usually just as mixed as any other class.

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Being new in PvP actually helps you in this case. Most of the complaints you see here are by melee players that are used to dominating in Secure where they just ran around getting free caster kills in small group PvP. Now that they have to second guess running face first into a zerg... BLM's are stupid no-skill players just relying purely on their OP LB.

Please do something (more) about Cometeor. I'm pretty much at the point of just not PvPing at all as soon as I get the gear I need. Unfortunately, I still have about a few hundred FLs to go, so I'm stuck.

I honestly don't really care if I get replied to by those who are doing it but it's incredibly annoying.

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Originally Posted by zeopower6

Please do something (more) about Cometeor. I'm pretty much at the point of just not PvPing at all as soon as I get the gear I need. Unfortunately, I still have about a few hundred FLs to go, so I'm stuck.

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Was it mine?

Every Slaughter team I queued into this week except for a couple were doomed from the start. The last one, had one caster and 5 bards. The heal lb might keep people from dying, but it also does nothing as far as killing. One match people were playing so terribly (regardless of class) I was rage quit #3 on the team and I never do that. I saw two people leave and thought at least I won't get penalized not being the first, but I did anyway. The last match when the cometors started raining down while we could only do one that was quickly healed, I didn't rage quit but decided no more slaughter PUGging until things improve somehow. Yay for GC restriction and being in the Derpy GC of the Week.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

Every Slaughter team I queued into this week except for a couple were doomed from the start. The last one, had one caster and 5 bards. The heal lb might keep people from dying, but it also does nothing as far as killing. One match people were playing so terribly (regardless of class) I was rage quit #3 on the team and I never do that. I saw two people leave and thought at least I won't get penalized not being the first, but I did anyway. The last match when the cometors started raining down while we could only do one that was quickly healed, I didn't rage quit but decided no more slaughter PUGging until things improve somehow. Yay for GC restriction and being in the Derpy GC of the Week.

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Adders have an awful lot of them, we had 5 Bards in our team the other day and of course no one willing to switch: 4/30 points at the end, GG. u_u

Bards could really use a damage or support LB.
Ranged DPS are still dominating Slaughter, especially 72.

Maybe implement a short invulnerability buff when using the jumping pad, to prevent a team double/triple LB'ing you on the top?

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

good read

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Tell your co-healer to wear tank jewellery and have Stoneskin/Adloquium on them at all times. :p
But yea, most people don't see what's happening around them.

The leaderboard on my last game for slaughter some minutes ago. We can clearly see that Melee doing just fine and almost on tie with range. :)

http://puu.sh/fASKF/cdb91cbb44.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

The leaderboard on my last game for slaughter some minutes ago. We can clearly see that Melee doing just fine and almost on tie with range. :)

http://puu.sh/fASKF/cdb91cbb44.jpg

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Lol!! This is more funny than it is sad >_<

Might as well make a slaughter mode for BLMS only.

Just got another proof that melee is doing well:

Top:
http://puu.sh/fB04b/2962475f5d.jpg

Bottom:
http://puu.sh/fB06N/cf7a6a072e.jpg