Locked out of the Duty Finder.

Perhaps, but now we are going overboard with technicalities. I mean, what is the point of fishing a queue as a party? You can't roulette at low level as a party, and the likelihood of getting into a group that is in progress, and needs your specific makeup in High roulette is so low it's not even worth considering.

The issues with people withdrawing from ST isn't because folks are fishing for in progress. It's just a large amount of people withdrawing for various legitimate reasons over the course of the time in queue. It happens, and it's not trolling or griefing. Queue times for tanks even on my server stretch into several minutes - so it's not even worth it to try to fish that one.

How do you know if the people withdrawing had a "legit" reason? I highly doubt that personal emergencies happen so frequently. Even if it wasn't for griefing purposes, people are still going to get very annoyed by the people who keep dropping out and holding up the game.

@MilesSaintboroguh

So you would prefer that the guy enters, then fake a disconnect and leave behind an entire group that probably, depending on who dropped, will have to requeu from start?

seems kind of weird as a raisoning for me.

Just me though

Mei

I would love to know how you know these are "legitimate" reasons.

Also since 2.4 the number of withdrawals from ST has drop radically whilst queue times remain the same if not much better than ever before. Which for people constantly having "legitimate" reasons seem odd, surely they wouldn't become any less legitimate with a penalty and still thus cause withdrawals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

@MilesSaintboroguh

So you would prefer that the guy enters, then fake a disconnect and leave behind an entire group that probably, depending on who dropped, will have to requeu from start?

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Have yet to see this happen once since 2.4. So how common is this hypothetical of yours??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

How do you know if the people withdrawing had a "legit" reason? I highly doubt that personal emergencies happen so frequently. Even if it wasn't for griefing purposes, people are still going to get very annoyed by the people who keep dropping out and holding up the game.

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Because we are playing an mmo with MILLIONS of other people, thousands upon thousands of which reside on individual servers. It happens. People have lives. The world doesn't revolve around the game's queue... or your personal annoyance that other people exist.

I agree that the queue fishing in low level\high level roulettes needed to be fixed, but the idea that a massive game like this with a HUGE playerbase should never have someone dropping from a queue is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Because we are playing an mmo with MILLIONS of other people, thousands upon thousands of which reside on individual servers. It happens. People have lives. The world doesn't revolve around the game's queue... or your personal annoyance that other people exist.

I agree that the queue fishing in low level\high level roulettes needed to be fixed, but the idea that a massive game like this with a HUGE playerbase should never have someone dropping from a queue is ridiculous.

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They get TWO free drops out of the queue with in a 24 hour period before penalties are applied.

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Originally Posted by Fellisin

They get TWO free drops out of the queue with in a 24 hour period before penalties are applied.

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And we are talking largely about issues in which entire parties are eating a penalty because of one person's behavior (among other things). There's a better solution that doesn't involve punishment. Why are people so happy for getting innocents caught up in the crusade? This game isn't going to win any more subscriptions by advertising that mistakes or RL issues earn you a virtual "black mark", even if it does reset at JP midnight. It's just... just bad business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And we are talking largely about issues in which entire parties are eating a penalty because of one person's behavior (among other things). There's a better solution that doesn't involve punishment. Why are people so happy for getting innocents caught up in the crusade? This game isn't going to win any more subscriptions by advertising that mistakes or RL issues earn you a virtual "black mark", even if it does reset at JP midnight. It's just... just bad business.

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Well that a pretty big assertion there. Can you actually show that this will put off new subscriptions?

Also a party could be used to avoid dungeons people don't particularly want to play without getting penalties if it wasn't applied to the whole party. Say it wasn't applied to a group, then in a group of two that party would collectively have 4 free passes before any punishment is applied. So if someone didn't want to play Haukke Manor HM for example on high roulette they could potentially have 4 get out jail free cards as far as haukke manor or any dungeons they wanted to avoid was concerned.

EDIT: My mistake here, I was thinking of something else, so the above underlined is incorrect!

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

MILLIONS

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http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/...tin-Powers.jpg

In other thoughts, I kinda don't care for the 30-minute lockout because of someone else withdrawing either. However, I wish a few people would stop suggesting the 'hide progress' thing in every thread ever. This is not a good solution for this game. I queue in progress for friends who lose a tank or healer in <50 dungeons all of the time. If you hide the progress, it'll be extremely difficult to make sure you're joining the same group. Pointing out that hiding progress worked for WoW doesn't mean anything here because on WoW you can just invite someone to your group while you're already in the dungeon. When they implement the ability to do that here, I'll be all for hiding the progress. Before that, you are causing more issues than you're helping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fellisin

Well that a pretty big assertion there. Can you actually show that this will put off new subscriptions?

Also a party could be used to avoid dungeons people don't particularly want to play without getting penalties if it wasn't applied to the whole party. Say it wasn't applied to a group, then in a group of two that party would collectively have 4 free passes before any punishment is applied. So if someone didn't want to play Haukke Manor HM for example on high roulette they could potentially have 4 get out jail free cards as far as haukke manor or any dungeons they wanted to avoid was concerned.

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Except, in the roulette you don't know what the dungeon is until you've hit accept, right? I could be wrong but they still would get the deserter debuff for dumping out of the dungeon after accepting. The strikes doesn't apply unless you withdraw at the ready screen.

We're now confusing two separate issues.

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I queue in progress for friends who lose a tank or healer in <50 dungeons all of the time.

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I'd agree, but you do realize that if your queue pops for that dungeon you were aiming for, and it's NOT an in progress (which it often isn't in the case of the popular ones that many people queue for to finish logs and etc. In Progress isn't always at the very front of the queue.) you've just earned yourself a strike as you withdraw and try again, right? This solution hurts folks trying to help their friends as well, and the only reason we even NEEDED that to begin with is because the queue doesn't filter people into dungeons as they open because of the "in progress" check that should have never existed in the first place.

Then, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

And really, I think that I've said everything I possibly can on the matter. SE is going to do what they will, and as far as evidence that it will hurt subs if word gets out regarding arbitrary penalties...

I'd suggest you have a look at XI's history. A great game, that never realized its full potential because the design punished players fairly often just for playing the game. It could have owned the landscape instead of being overtaken by WoW. XIV has that same potential as well, if SE can put a little more thought into their designs for things in the first place, instead of adding punishments to deter unwanted behavior as an afterthought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And we are talking largely about issues in which entire parties are eating a penalty because of one person's behavior (among other things). There's a better solution that doesn't involve punishment. Why are people so happy for getting innocents caught up in the crusade? This game isn't going to win any more subscriptions by advertising that mistakes or RL issues earn you a virtual "black mark", even if it does reset at JP midnight. It's just... just bad business.

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and again, it does not happen to "entire" parties (4,8,24). it happens to partial.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Except, in the roulette you don't know what the dungeon is until you've hit accept, right? I could be wrong but they still would get the deserter debuff for dumping out of the dungeon after accepting. The strikes doesn't apply unless you withdraw at the ready screen.

We're now confusing two separate issues.

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Ok yes that is correct, my mistake.

Okay but the point still stands. That a two man party without a joint penalty applied would still get 4 free passes at withdrawing from the queue. That could be used to troll a queue four times without a punishment being applied.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I'd agree, but you do realize that if your queue pops for that dungeon you were aiming for, and it's NOT an in progress (which it often isn't in the case of the popular ones that many people queue for to finish logs and etc. In Progress isn't always at the very front of the queue.) you've just earned yourself a strike as you withdraw and try again, right? This solution hurts folks trying to help their friends as well, and the only reason we even NEEDED that to begin with is because the queue doesn't filter people into dungeons as they open because of the "in progress" check that should have never existed in the first place.

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I'm aware this is the case, but it didn't happen very often with lower level groups (until ninja, but things will normalize in a month or two probably). I just really don't think SE has a better method to stop the withdraw spam at this point in time. If some changes are made to the game to make it more like a modern MMO (allowing you to invite people when in a dungeon in case someone leaves, letting you whisper friends while in dungeons, cross-server parties and whispers, etc.), they could fix the withdraw spam by removing the indication that the group you're joining is In Progress.

Beyond that, there's no really good solution that everyone is happy to see. I personally enjoy not having to hit commence for 30mins straight while people repeatedly withdraw from ST, but I've also been locked out for 30m from someone else withdrawing in my party. :/

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

@MilesSaintboroguh

So you would prefer that the guy enters, then fake a disconnect and leave behind an entire group that probably, depending on who dropped, will have to requeu from start?

seems kind of weird as a raisoning for me.

Just me though

Mei

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The fact that anyone would be willing to do that over and over would make me question their priorities cause, you know, it'd just be faster to complete the duty you're given. Also, your so called hypothetical would never be a common occurrence. The whole system we got now is to make trolling queues as unappealing as possible, not that it will fully stop trolling to begin with.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

The fact that anyone would be willing to do that over and over would make me question their priorities cause, you know, it'd just be faster to complete the duty you're given. Also, your so called hypothetical would never be a common occurrence. The whole system we got now is to make trolling queues as unappealing as possible, not that it will fully stop trolling to begin with.

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its not unappealing it just makes me want to troll one time to get people like you back for crying about the ques so they create a stupid system it actrually makes it really appealing to troll in dutys drag bosses early purposely dc and so on and ive enever trolled a duty before all this system does is make me feel like doing it just to make people cry

Oh my, aren't we petty? Or are you upset that you can't freely withdraw to your heart's content? I would have been happier if the lockout was 24 hours just so I can see people like you curl up and wimper.

Oh and FYI, early pullers existed way before the withdraw penalty. Do try again, I enjoy our game.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

and again, it does not happen to "entire" parties (4,8,24). it happens to partial.

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/sigh

Yes, you are correct that it does not happen to entire, full, 100% filled parties\alliances. The spirit of my post doesn't change just because you picked out one phrase that was slightly inaccurate. a party of 3/4 still means 2 people are eating a strike through no fault of their own. More, in the cases of raid groups.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

/sigh

Yes, you are correct that it does not happen to entire, full, 100% filled parties\alliances. The spirit of my post doesn't change just because you picked out one phrase that was slightly inaccurate. a party of 3/4 still means 2 people are eating a strike through no fault of their own.

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and nothing was stoping anyone from saying "afk" or using ready check.

Well that gave me a good laugh! Thanks! Though I shouldn't be laughing at the challenged who are new to the internet or using obvious flame/troll bait. Eh, guilty pleasure, I can't help it.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

...a party of 5/6 still means 4 people are eating a strike through no fault of their own.

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They are complicit by not telling that one party member to behave better. It is better that the people in the party are punished instead of the rest of the player base suffering from a gang of troublemakers working together to game the system and attempts to troll and fish the DF The collective punishment makes people hold each other accountable. This is an excellent choice that SE has made.

And it is 3 strikes. If you already have 2 strikes you should make it very clear to the party that you do NOT want a third. If people are so callous and selfish that they don't care, you need to blacklist the troublemakers and not party with them. This is how you hold them accountable. Don't blame SE or other players out there who are innocent, and have been taken for granted for far too long. Hold the trouble makers accountable. If they are your friends, you need to sternly lecture them and get them in line. The penalty is doing what it is supposed to do.

either way it dosnt change a thing all thing alt characters/mains other accounts on the same server and same level can still withdraw as much as they desirer even if 1 character locks out u can do the withdraws on another
and you can have up to 8 characters on the same world that means you can withdraw as much as you want by the time u got to the 3rd character the withdraw time would be up for the others

I'm happy with the change, myself. The old ST (and CT long before that) queue trolling was absurd. Especially if you were trying to queue as one job, then do something else as another job in the meantime, and be forced to swap back and forth repeatedly in an effort to get something done as people withdrew and re-entered endlessly. Throw in skill cooldown resets every time you did that outside a city and it got that much worse.

Fast forward to 2.4 and the problem has largely disappeared. Thank goodness.

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Originally Posted by winxbloom61

chances of it being the same person withdrawing everytime is really low so this system dosnt change it one bit

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Yet since the system been in place the withdrawing from ST has dropped radically. Sometimes ST going through without any withdrawals at all. So the system is obviously having an effect on the duty queues. whether you wish to accept that or not is upto you. But to say it doesn't change anything is simply false.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winxbloom61

either way it dosnt change a thing all thing alt characters/mains other accounts on the same server and same level can still withdraw as much as they desirer even if 1 character locks out u can do the withdraws on another
and you can have up to 8 characters on the same world that means you can withdraw as much as you want by the time u got to the 3rd character the withdraw time would be up for the others

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Wow that some dedication, time wise for a troll to put in, to get eight characters upto level 50 plus required ilevels, just so they can troll pop. Any evidence of anyone doing this past a pie in a sky hypothetical you just plucked out of the thin air?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winxbloom61

either way it dosnt change a thing all thing alt characters/mains other accounts on the same server and same level can still withdraw as much as they desirer even if 1 character locks out u can do the withdraws on another
and you can have up to 8 characters on the same world that means you can withdraw as much as you want by the time u got to the 3rd character the withdraw time would be up for the others

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So deliberately find ways to withdraw just because you can? What is the fun in that? All this means the penalty is too light as it is. If someone gets their giggles from trolling the DF that much, what else is left but to increase the penalty so they can only do it less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fellisin

Yet since the system been in place the withdrawing from ST has dropped radically. Sometimes ST going through without any withdrawals at all. So the system is obviously having an effect on the duty queues. whether you wish to accept that or not is upto you. But to say it doesn't change anything is simply false.

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the system isnt having a effect just the current time of the month not many ppl on are have reactive their accounts and the only effect it is having is negative people afraid to que because if they are dps and a legit reason happans while we wait for 50mins or more we get a strike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fellisin

Wow never waited 50 minutes for anything in the last week and done loads of ST, dungeons and trials . I get into ST from anything from a couple minutes to 15 minutes with barely any troll pops. Like I said it has had an effect. You may wish to deny that. But there has been a marked difference in the duty queues.

Also you get two free strikes before penalty applied.

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from the queing at the minum i have seen 3 strikes only isnt enough cerntaily not for dps who have over a hour ques most of the time sure 3 strikes is reasonable for healers and tanks who got almost auto que ins but we dps get screwed out of this by this system

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winxbloom61

from the queing at the minum i have seen 3 strikes only isnt enough cerntaily not for dps who have over a hour ques most of the time sure 3 strikes is reasonable for healers and tanks who got almost auto que ins but we dps get screwed out of this by this system

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It doesn't matter what class you playing 3 strikes is fair.

Also if you're queuing for an hour and then withdraw when it pops, then you just made a decision to withdraw and wait in another potential hour queue. If you done this three times. 30 minutes would seem like joke, since you've just made the choice to waste three hours queuing anyway's of your own free choice and pull out as the duty popped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winxbloom61

from the queing at the minum i have seen 3 strikes only isnt enough cerntaily not for dps who have over a hour ques most of the time sure 3 strikes is reasonable for healers and tanks who got almost auto que ins but we dps get screwed out of this by this system

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i really want to punch the teacher that failed to teach you how to spell, use punctuation, and proper grammer. everything you type has been a headache to read, on top of trying to grab at anything that is possible to say "people can still use this way to troll the queue".

for reference, this is how stupid you sound.
http://tts.imtranslator.net/Ujqa

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

yes, things do come up. this is when you take yourself out of queue if you dont know how long it will take. you have only yourself to blame if you end up missing the window, and if it is a true emergency like you keep implying, then you wouldnt have been able to play for that long regardless.

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"If you don't know how long it will take" -- that's a bit funny, considering the time window to accept a queue when it pops is under a minute. If you already know you're just going to be gone for 2 minutes after a 40 minute wait so far, do you really expect people to withdraw from the queue? That that's how it's supposed to be?

You can't craft anything worthwhile because it might pop at the wrong time that you won't be able to finish HQing, you can't spam Fates on a different class because you may not have the time to get out of fight and switch classes if it's a zone with aggressive mobs, you can't level your Chocobo because you can't have it out while signed up.

Now with the queue penalty added to it, signing up for duty if you aren't a tank or a healer and don't have one with you, is more trouble than it's worth. If they expect people to be at the ready at all times while signed up, they should allow us to actually DO things while signed up. Extend the timer for accepting a queue to 1:30 and it'll take care of the class switching issues and the majority of the crafting issues as well, and allow us to use our Chocobos while in DF.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

The reason you cannot have 1 person in the party get the strike, and not the entire party. Is it would in effect give the party 9 chances to get the dungeon they wanted. (assuming party of 3)

Dungeon cycling is def a problem, and defeats the purpose of roulette. People will abuse it. It's just a fact.

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As has been stated, you don't know what the dungeon is until you enter the dungeon and are no longer in the queue. This cannot happen.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

...
You can't craft anything worthwhile because it might pop at the wrong time that you won't be able to finish HQing, you can't spam Fates on a different class because you may not have the time to get out of fight and switch classes if it's a zone with aggressive mobs, you can't level your Chocobo because you can't have it out while signed up..

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You can always run away in 45 seconds and switch class. You just need to start running immediately and not hope to finish the fate. Let it go. You can craft HQ, just that if the queue pop, that is the RNG telling you this one has to be NQ, Just careful synth 2 and finish it quick. And the penalty has nothing to with the chocobo, it has been that way before the penalty.

The game not just about you. There are other players too, that your are taking for granted. And beside it is 3 strikes, you get to gamble with that for the 1st two seeing if you can lucky get the fate or the craft. Only one 3rd strike do you get an all too light penalty of 30 minutes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Punishing one person for what another person does or fails to do is wrong, no matter what it's about.

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HAHAHA, is that what you think? Please don't ever join the military... or take up any type of leadership/management position anywhere for that matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Punishing one person for what another person does or fails to do is wrong, no matter what it's about.

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Better not set foot in T7 either. One person failing to point voice away from the party or did put shriek behind the renaud and the whole raid gets stoned and wipes and everyone is punished.

This is an MMO and not a solo game. You need to hold each other accountable. And it is not just people within your raid, there is also a larger community of players out. They are not meant to be taken for granted so you can troll and fish and abuse the DF.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Better not set foot in T7 either. One person failing to point voice away from the party or did put shriek behind the renaud and the whole raid gets stoned and wipes and everyone is punished.

This is an MMO and not a solo game. You need to hold each other accountable. And it is not just people within your raid, there is also a larger community of players out. They are not meant to be taken for granted so you can troll and fish and abuse the DF.

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same thing happens with t10. mess up on tether or charge? raid wide aoe and debuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcari

HAHAHA, is that what you think? Please don't ever join the military... or take up any type of leadership/management position anywhere for that matter.

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MMO you pay for should strive to be just like the military. Great example....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Better not set foot in T7 either. One person failing to point voice away from the party or did put shriek behind the renaud and the whole raid gets stoned and wipes and everyone is punished.

This is an MMO and not a solo game. You need to hold each other accountable. And it is not just people within your raid, there is also a larger community of players out. They are not meant to be taken for granted so you can troll and fish and abuse the DF.

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yes, but if someone in your group fails to point the voice away from the party 3x you don't get locked out of the instance for 30min.

This is an MMO, but part of that is to socialize and tackle challenges as a group. Entering the queue for the DF is not a challenge. Collective punishment just creates more animosity between players without much benefit. Besides, you don't even know who withdraws from a queue, it's not like there's a message that gets displayed.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Hold the trouble makers accountable.

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But, this is what I have been saying ALL ALONG. Hold the TROUBLEMAKERS accountable, by making it impossible by design to behave in the undesired way, or by designing the penalty structure in such a way that you ONLY catch the people who are ACTUALLY abusing it (i.e. Strikes accumulate if you withdraw within 5 minutes of the previous withdrawal - only tanks and healers, the ones who are actually doing the exploiting, would be caught in this net). There's no need to incur a penalty strike for needing to run to the rescue of a roommate or wife agro or whatever. Give penalties to people who are ACTUALLY EXPLOITING the system.

Right now it's catching everyone, whether they fish or not, whether they personally withdraw or not (in the case of the partial party penalty), not just the troublemakers you seem to have such loathing for.

By queueing with a tank/heals, it pops me to the front of the line. If that person drops and it didn't penalize everyone in that group, what you would/will see is a HUGE influx of Tank/Heals selling auto-queues.

The only possible fix is to automatically put any remaining party members at the back of the queue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shogroth

By queueing with a tank/heals, it pops me to the front of the line. If that person drops and it didn't penalize everyone in that group, what you would/will see is a HUGE influx of Tank/Heals selling auto-queues.

The only possible fix is to automatically put any remaining party members at the back of the queue.

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Again... completely separate issue that I am not even sure exists tbh (or that you are understanding properly - that person drops after entering... doesn't give you a strike. If he withdraws, NONE of you get in...).

Right now there isn't a tank on any server selling a queue into any dungeon of note... Why? We have a queue too. I waited ten for a ST. Coil isn't the kind of content you sell cutsies to.... you sell wins. Not the target SE is aiming for with this change.

So again... not the issue here and never was.

[QUOTE=NyarukoW;2566563] snip

If we refer to your last statement: Than the game needs forced party's/group up for all content. There should be no more solo content, this is a MMO and we all need to play together and what better way to promote a better community than than requireing a group/party for all content, from leveling to fates to dailies. The issue is easy to fix, you want players to be responsible than teach them from the start and make everything require a party no exceptions.

Except that forcing a party for every single piece of content creates an issue we already have; when the majority of the player base has already moved on, where does that leave new players? Who is going to party with a newbie when there's nothing for the veteran player to gain?