Protesting Frontlines

!!!!!!

/bow

and he's Maelstrom - Yes! Now he just needs to come to Leviathan.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

and he's Maelstrom - Yes! Now he just needs to come to Leviathan.

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NO HE'S MINE!! HANDS OFF!! Come to Behemoth!!

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Originally Posted by MikeyMac

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Originally Posted by MikeyMac

Then don't put PVP gear in the game. Why bother? If it has no relevance, then what is the purpose of it? Throw your i55 PVE stuff on and run T9. Your awesome skillz should get you through it. The only comments on this thread against the OPs topic are people who don't want to grind the gear and just be handed the content to them. Take your lumps like everyone and get facerolled by people who worked for gear until you get better gear and experience.

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PvE progression and PvP competitive play are two COMPLETELY different things and it makes me sad knowing that I used to think like you when it came to pvp gear with some older MMO's I used to play, but in the end I realized that PvP gear is completely asinine. The whole "take your lumps and get facerolled" crap is what turns people away from pvp. Its one thing to lose to someone better than you. Its a completely different story when you lose because they simply out gear you. You can be the best pvper in the world, but it don't mean shit if the baddie out gears you since you will do crap damage to him. So please tell me where in that logic does anything make sense? Honestly the only people that like pvp gear are the ones that enjoy laughing at undergeared players as they kill them within a single global.

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Originally Posted by Gor

and it was time and skill that those players put in to get the gear that they earned. like right now, what are you going to do with your wolf marks you earned in Frontlines? buy cookies with them? or not buy the gear you earned (even though its trash now unless you do 50 Den).

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Time is all it was. You really don't need skill to gear up in pvp in any game. Its just time. I've seen hundreds of people in swtor in full pvp ranked gear but they are still absolutely terrible at the game. They just simply spent the time grinding out the gear converting their regular commendations into ranked commendations while never stepping foot into ranked (one of many of swtors mistakes which killed off ranked pvp). Gear doesn't equate skill. Spending time grinding gear doesn't make the person skillful. What SE should of done is removed the pvp gear. PvP ranking and vanity rewards such as armor with no stats that can be glamoured or unique mounts etc...would of been the way to go. PvP gear is something that came as a quick fix to stop raiders from dominating but in today's MMO's with systems such as bolster in swtor (and even WoW using a similar system) and ilevel sync in FFXIV, the day's of pvp gear is becoming pointless.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Time is all it was. You really don't need skill to gear up in pvp in any game. Its just time. I've seen hundreds of people in swtor in full pvp ranked gear but they are still absolutely terrible at the game ... dribble dribble toil and scribble.

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So what. The point is they took the time to get it while others that chose to bish and moan did not. The only difference is if the player is good, it will take less time to get the gear while bad players will eventually get it. It doesn't mean PVP gear should only be for good players. And it certainly doesn't mean bad players should be less entitled to the gear just because they are are not as skilled.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

What SE should of done is removed the pvp gear.

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Or maybe haters who didn't want to put in the time to grind PVP gear should just go play Care Bears where everyone wins and everyone gets the same thing so no one feels left out.

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Originally Posted by Gor

Or maybe haters who didn't want to put in the time to grind PVP gear should just go play Care Bears where everyone wins and everyone gets the same thing so no one feels left out.

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Or maybe you should stop relying on gear? Competitive play is not competitive when I can roll in and loloneshot someone who has no gear. Cuz that is all pvp gear is. In swtor for example two people of equal pvp stats just zero out. They all get the same bonuses. But someone without pvp gear? I roll up and smack them for 15k, and they usually only have around 22k hp where as a full pvp gear dps will be around 33k. Anyone who see's nothing wrong with that is nothing more than a troll who gets jollies killing people in 1-2 attacks. Where is the fun in that? Its pointless.

The way people rant on here about the pvp gear makes it sound like it doesnt work anywhere. I guess i missed the part where they removed the wolfs den matched lvl 50 parties with no ilvl cap in the update notes. Keep crying long enough though and maybe SE will add a future frontline mode that allows the pvp gear. You still wont be able to steamroll newbies like you want to (since they wont queue to it) and will probably keep getting matched up against teams with similar gear to you thus nullifying your handicap but hey at least you get to use your gear that you worked so hard for right? I dont understand why people are in favor of crutches in pvp anyway. Its like hackers who do that invisible hack in CoD and then start gloating about how awesome they are.

I will say though it is pretty messed up how ppl will be able to get that gear 3 times faster than ppl before this patch but I still maintain pvp gear (or anything that gives ppl overwhelming advantages) is stupid and shouldnt even exist in pvp. Defeats the whole spirit and purpose of the event.

Not this crap again.... Okay. Do you know how many people have organized themselves in both ranks and Grand Companies? Would you really... REALLY want the headache of being rank-whatever going up against a near alliance of rank 40's with no sync and full morale?

Guys, get real... This is the easiest way to integrate an already complex system for full fairness (and remember, this is supposed to HELP people get into PvP, not push them out), and once it has been released for a while then they probably WILL add a no-sync Frontlines. Just because it isn't here now doesn't mean it never will be. You all just need to grow up.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Or maybe you should stop relying on gear? Competitive play is not competitive when I can roll in and loloneshot someone who has no gear. Cuz that is all pvp gear is. In swtor for example two people of equal pvp stats just zero out. They all get the same bonuses. But someone without pvp gear? I roll up and smack them for 15k, and they usually only have around 22k hp where as a full pvp gear dps will be around 33k. Anyone who see's nothing wrong with that is nothing more than a troll who gets jollies killing people in 1-2 attacks. Where is the fun in that? Its pointless.

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So basically, what you're saying is that people should PvP with no rewards and nothing to work towards.

I am sick of all these people going on about these free hand-me-outs. The reason why lower ranks are getting owned in PvP because you don't have the gear. And the reason those players don't have the gear is because the higher ranks did the grinding and hard work before you. So, if I have this correct, you're saying that because they put in the hard work before you and did the rank grinding before you means that all the lower-rank players who didn't bother should get a handicap?

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

I will say though it is pretty messed up how ppl will be able to get that gear 3 times faster than ppl before this patch but I still maintain pvp gear (or anything that gives ppl overwhelming advantages) is stupid and shouldnt even exist in pvp. Defeats the whole spirit and purpose of the event.

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Early adopter always suffer. Nothing new here. It's like Cell Phones, you pay 500 dollars for the sweet new Phone. It's riddled with glitches and compatibility issues, then 4 months later everyone else gets the phone for 200 on sale and after a few updates when the phone is running smoothly.

All in all, anyone with the armor shoud not care. All this means is new people get to play dress up with us sooner, and ques get better since everyone gets 40 faster.

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Originally Posted by Fayie

So basically, what you're saying is that people should PvP with no rewards and nothing to work towards.

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I've never said that. Vanity rewards can easily exist. People flooded the ranked queue in swtor just for a shot at the 1500 rating rancor mount. You don't need gear to incentivise rank. Vanity works just as well. Mounts, pieces of armor with no stats that can be used for glamour, etc...

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Originally Posted by Fayie

I am sick of all these people going on about these free hand-me-outs. The reason why lower ranks are getting owned in PvP because you don't have the gear. And the reason those players don't have the gear is because the higher ranks did the grinding and hard work before you. So, if I have this correct, you're saying that because they put in the hard work before you and did the rank grinding before you means that all the lower-rank players who didn't bother should get a handicap?

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swtor is going on its 9th tier of pvp gear. So you don't need to tell me about "hard work" as I'm always min/maxed on the highest tier of pvp gear on multiple toons. Even though in reality that hard work is nothing more than grinding, but whatever. All gear does is put me on equal footing with other min/maxed players and lets me absolutely obliterate people with no gear and they could be possibly good players, they could be bad, hell they could be new, but at the end of the day skill had zero play in it, and if its a new player? There's a high chance they will never come back.

So please tell me, what's the point of PvP gear? Because in the years I've been pvping in MMO's with PvP gear I've slowly started to wonder what the point is. Hell, in swtor I'm at the point where I'm gaming the refund system by purchasing low level pvp weapons and then trading them in before the timer runs out to be max geared before I hit level cap on any alts I level because I refuse to queue without pvp gear (by level 54 I usually have 20+ weapons, enough to get completely min/maxed)....that's how bad the disparity is between people with full expertise and people who are just getting bolstered without pvp gear (new players). You get absolutely destroyed.

Why should I even have to go through all that? What's wrong with hitting 55 on an alt and letting skill be the determining factor? Why do I need pvp gear? For what? So I can roflstomp people without it? I'm sick and tired of it. I'd be much happier with a pure bolster system like how it functions in the low levels and just have customizable armor shells or mounts or some other kind of vanity along with the ranking system as forms of "rewards."

No one here has yet to give me a 100% valid reason why we "need" pvp gear outside of being butthurt because they spent time win trading to get their current gear...which is not really a good reason.

After playing frontlines and the new wolves den queue I have to say it's a TON of fun. I can't wait to continue to explore. The upped wolf marks and exp are welcome, and the added challenge logs are great. The stun reduction I haven't played pvp enough to really form an opinion, but seriously that's an improvement.

With all that being said, I can dig no morale and ilvl sync in frontlines now they added the additional wolves den queue. I'm still against the decision, but after getting hands on with it I'm no longer bothered by the lack of it. I also queued with pvp gear and it didn't seem to matter much. More testing is needed, but I retract my protest.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to continue to play frontlines so can't protest. This still doesn't change my opinions on the pvp gear and morale stat.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Keep crying long enough though and maybe SE will add a future frontline mode that allows the pvp gear. You still wont be able to steamroll newbies like you want to (since they wont queue to it) and will probably keep getting matched up against teams with similar gear to you thus nullifying your handicap but hey at least you get to use your gear that you worked so hard for right?

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Your comparing a gear progression system to a hack? Pfft, please.
I am not looking to steamroll newbies. We just wanted the gear that's already in the game to work, and not to remove our rewards. After 1,500+ wolves den matches, yes I feel entitled to have my pvp gear and yes i want a slight advantage. (those making swtor refrences, this game isn't swtor so please stick within context. I've beaten plenty of ilvl90's with ilvl70 pvp gear, and plenty of ilvl100's in ilvl90 gear. There is a set of skill here especially with pvp only abilities)

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Originally Posted by Ransu

No one here has yet to give me a 100% valid reason why we "need" pvp gear outside of being butthurt because they spent time win trading to get their current gear.

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In my opinion the gear grind is what makes MMO's fun, whether it's PvE or PvP. I'm only asking for a slight advantage, but it keeps me coming back for more. That is a 100% valid reason why. Some people have different motivations for PvP.
also there have been MANY valid opinions on why gear has a place in pvp. Please read thread.
I'm still entitled to what I earned. Not everyone win-trades.

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Originally Posted by Rawk

Your comparing a gear progression system to a hack? Pfft, please.
I am not looking to steamroll newbies. We just wanted the gear that's already in the game to work, and not to remove our rewards. After 1,500+ wolves den matches, yes I feel entitled to have my pvp gear and yes i want a slight advantage. (those making swtor refrences, this game isn't swtor so please stick within context. I've beaten plenty of ilvl90's with ilvl70 pvp gear, and plenty of ilvl100's in ilvl90 gear. There is a set of skill here especially with pvp only abilities)

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So what you're saying is you don't actually enjoy pvp? You only did it for gear. And I use swtor references because that's what I've played the most of in pvp recently and it basically applies the same logic as any pvp gear. PvP stats are pointless and should not be a thing. This game has lvl sync, WoW and swtor are implementing bolster. The concept of a pvp stat is outdated and needs to disappear.

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Originally Posted by Rawk

In my opinion the gear grind is what makes MMO's fun, whether it's PvE or PvP. I'm only asking for a slight advantage, but it keeps me coming back for more. That is a 100% valid reason why. Some people have different motivations for PvP.
also there have been MANY valid opinions on why gear has a place in pvp. Please read thread.
I'm still entitled to what I earned. Not everyone win-trades.

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Gear progression in PvE makes sense. Gear progression in PvP makes ZERO sense in terms of competitive play. Your advantage should be skill. If you feel you should have a slight advantage because of gear then you should not be pvping. Skill should be the ONLY factor. So no, your reason is not valid.

So getting back on topic...

Who is actually protesting Frontlines now that it is out?

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Originally Posted by Ransu

So what you're saying is you don't actually enjoy pvp? You only did it for gear.

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In other words, I enjoy pvp AND enjoy getting the gear. Is there a problem with both?

I came here to post the same type of thread.
Why not sync all pve gear to 80 too?

/signed

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Originally Posted by Rawk

In other words, I enjoy pvp AND enjoy getting the gear. Is there a problem with both?

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Yes, you rely on gear rather than skill.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yes, you rely on gear rather than skill.

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And this my friends is the classic example of someone who loses more matches than they win in pVP,they think they offer us wise philantropic notes as to why winning doesn't mean everything.you are wrong! gear progression in pve and gear progresion in PVP is no different, same concept. THE GRIND= The Reward. your smoking choco dung if you think its cool to waste peoples time and money. Since when do we punish high level players in any format just to satisfy the fears of a new player base and punish players who legitimately spent hours and hours trying to receive marks. I just did frontlines and recieved 345 marks in one match. it would have taken 3 straight wins in WD to do that before, so isn't that incentive enough?!!! And why shouldn't we complain, because players like Ransu suck? Thats not a good enough reason for me

The classic retort of "you must suck." The logic behind this retort is kind of sad really. I suck at pvp yet you all are begging to hold onto a gear advantage. Its pretty sad. You're so terrified of losing that advantage because without gear you realize you're not that good.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

The classic retort of "you must suck." The logic behind this retort is kind of sad really. I suck at pvp yet you all are begging to hold onto a gear advantage. Its pretty sad. You're so terrified of losing that advantage because without gear you realize you're not that good.

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Simple logic will tell you that when I first started pvp I had no gear to begin with, just like EvERYBODY else. Did I whine when fully geared players with a bevy of morale and materia were spanking me. NO! I said I'm gonna grind this thing out. practice and persevererance makes better players not the magic wand u apparently have to automatically be good at everything as u claim

But like I said its simple logic, and judging from the last 122 post you've' spewed onto these forums in the last few months that are full of snarky judgment and devoid of any substance, you know not of what i speak of

Hmmm. I wonder if the OP is still standing in the middle of a battlefield naked.

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Originally Posted by Akira340stx

Simple logic will tell you that when I first started pvp I had no gear to begin with, just like EvERYBODY else. Did I whine when fully geared players with a bevy of morale and materia were spanking me. NO! I said I'm gonna grind this thing out. practice and persevererance makes better players not the magic wand u apparently have to automatically be good at everything as u claim

But like I said its simple logic, and judging from the last 122 post you've' spewed onto these forums in the last few months that are full of snarky judgment and devoid of any substance, you know not of what i speak of

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That's an incredibly flawed logic. "I had to grind so everyone else should suffer." I hate that logic. Its beyond childish. I've been grinding pvp gear in multiple MMO's and always min/max in them, but it doesn't change the fact that I believe pvp stats are a flawed design and frontlines is a positive step in moving away from it.

Your fourth sentence contradicts your first, you're confused, and incredibly short-sighted. You've been "grinding pvp gear in multiple MMO's and always min/max in them" but somehow its "flawed logic" to believe that the players who have done the very same thing that you have described in this game for pvp gear, don't deserve to complain when said gear is now a superficial trumped up vanity piece in FL? do you read what you post. Its wannabe eliticism.

The i 80 sync is pretty cool imo. It allows for a selection of any gear from 80-110 for min/maxing of whatever desired secondary stat. If there was no i80 sync not as many players would try the new frontlines, fast ques is what pvp needs.

Just because there is no regular uncapped que now doesnt mean there wont be eventually. They increased the xp/marks so people will attain pvp gear much easier now and in a few months there will be enough people to have uncapped pvp without introducing massive gear differences between players... sorry you wont be able to crush other players with your better gear QQ TIME

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Originally Posted by Akira340stx

Your fourth sentence contradicts your first, you're confused, and incredibly short-sighted. You've been "grinding pvp gear in multiple MMO's and always min/max in them" but somehow its "flawed logic" to believe that the players who have done the very same thing that you have described in this game for pvp gear, don't deserve to complain when said gear is now a superficial trumped up vanity piece in FL? do you read what you post. Its wannabe eliticism.

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Wow you are really digging here. Wasn't contradicting anything, just simply pointing out that I've done the grind in other games as you seem to like to suggest I haven't in your prior post. I enjoy pvp so I deal with the gear grind, doesn't mean that I don't find the entire mechanic of a pvp stat to be incredibly flawed.

fully support the ditching of the moral stat. NEVER been a fan of isolated activity stats. All stats should apply for all activities in the game.

level sync, thats got to go

I prefer it. I "protested" the arena mode, now they actually have a design that suits this game and this genre.

Been doing PvP in MMOs for a decade, got Gladiator during WoW Season 2. Honestly, I'm really fed up of turbo grinds and serious business dictating MMO PvP. Rewards should be vanity and incentive and thats what they essentially are now. MMO PvP is a mini game, its never balanced or turned properly and it shouldn't be treated like a min-max venue or designed around. I want to use it to relax from PvE or for some variety because that's what it's there for.

If you want a hardcore focus in a setup of this nature play a MOBA, stop trying to outgrind people and bowl them over in a mini game because thats all PvP gear has ever been in MMOs since its inception. Trust me, I abused it plenty. Used to go into BGs on a decked out Druid/Warrior combo in TBC and destroy the entire PUG team.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yes, you rely on gear rather than skill.

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/category/5/ #JustSaying you can't really say I rely on gear rather than skill. I've never been fully decked out, and still just recently got at ilvl90. I'm also 1500 wolves den matches in, and months worth of pvp. It's easy for someone who doesn't pvp often to state "well who cares about that gear" but its different when we've had pvp gear in the game since the start of pvp and we've worked towards it and have earned it. The fact is that SE did put pvp gear in and they did put morale stat in already and then ripped it away from people who enjoyed pvp really is my main issue.

How much experience do you have in PvP with FFXIV? Do you even know that ilvl70 pvp gear can stand up against an ilvl100? You have very little experience in FFXIV's pvp yet you swear up and down its gear > skill. I don't understand, how do you know?

EDIT: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/category/5/ <-- Mine for comparison.

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Originally Posted by Rawk

The fact is that SE did put pvp gear in and they did put morale stat in already and then ripped it away from people who enjoyed pvp really is my main issue.

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Ya? Whats your point? I played swtor from launch and did nothing but pvp and geared through every tier of pvp gear and then BW implemented bolster which allowed pve gear to get expertise stat when entering a warzon. I was perfectly fine with it. I didn't get all pissy because they "killed my hard work" (cuz grinding is so hard *rolls eyes*). SE is doing the right thing just like BW is with bolster for swtor.

Even if I did bother to grind the gear in this game (No way in hell I would. I tried and got a two hour queue several days straight for wolves den so ya, screw that), I'd say the same exact thing. Removing pvp stats from frontlines is a good step forward.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Ya? Whats your point? I played swtor from launch and did nothing but pvp and geared through every tier of pvp gear and then BW implemented bolster which allowed pve gear to get expertise stat when entering a warzon. I was perfectly fine with it. I didn't get all pissy because they "killed my hard work" (cuz grinding is so hard *rolls eyes*). SE is doing the right thing just like BW is with bolster for swtor.

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Cool story, let's compare apples to oranges, because hey they're both fruit. FFXIV is basically saying "use pve gear for frontlines". SWTOR said "You can now use pve gear in pvp". See how that's different? They caught everyone up, instead of removing the rewards. I've stated in the past on this thread, I wouldn't mind if everyone had a fast pass to morale gear but they left it in tact. Instead they took away pvpers rewards instead of giving pve-casuals faster rewards. All they would need is ilvl70 gear a bit of learning experience, then they'd be fine. But you'd know that if you played pvp.

I played SWTOR too, you're not the only one.

See in FFXIV they give us pvp gear, we were like okay. They then gave us awesome animal gear, teased frontlines at the same time, and even frontline CS has people in animal gear. The preview originally of the animal pvp gear said "Frontlines" on the art page. EVERYTHING was leading us on to think that pvp gear could *gasp* be used in pvp, and then shortly before frontlines is finally being released they drop the bomb that "oh yeah pve gear will be better". What would be better would be "we're making it easier to get pvp gear." even having ilvl70 craftable would work. The truth is, people say this morale thing is this huge ungodly advantage when it's not. It is an advantage, but it's not as high and mighty as people think. Usually its by the few that pvp'd a couple of times, got stomped and blamed it on the gear. When in truth, it was mostly them, somewhat the gear.

Rawk is correct in what he is saying. Currently PvP gear is lacking a whole stat as part of it's budget, because they get morale. In Frontlines, PvE gear dominates because it gets all of it's stats, where Morale is ignored. If SE wants to balance things this way, why not add an additional stat category to PvP gear, making it viable in PvE? Would that be unfair to players who only participate in PvE content?

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Originally Posted by Rawkzor

Rawk is correct in what he is saying. Currently PvP gear is lacking a whole stat as part of it's budget, because they get morale. In Frontlines, PvE gear dominates because it gets all of it's stats, where Morale is ignored. If SE wants to balance things this way, why not add an additional stat category to PvP gear, making it viable in PvE? Would that be unfair to players who only participate in PvE content?

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I don't see anything wrong with removing moral and just adding a normal stat. I just feel that a pvp stat in general is a negative impact in pvp for every MMO. ilvl sync isn't perfect though and really I wish they just did a baseline stat like what GW2 did initially for pvp.

Frontlines is amazing and once they fix the queues (within the week) it will be incredible. The Exp is monstrous, Sold/Myth for it for insane fun... Wolves Den is nothing compared to it. I hope every last win trader is angry.

So in protest, you will potentially cause a loss for your entire alliance because the alliance is basically short one person. Sounds selfish to me. And if you are serious about doing this, isn't this a suspendable offense? Aren't you purposely affecting the other people you are playing with? This is reportable you know... Dat logic

I think morale should be in play. I can understand making it accessible and thats ok.. but in a month or so I want to see a change because we get so many points why not.

I'd also like to see different games. Ballista, Hutball, King of the Hill, Tower Defense, etc.

They have a good system, its fairly balanced and fun atm. Time to expand it.

Someone give me the update; are we still protesting?

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

So in protest, you will potentially cause a loss for your entire alliance because the alliance is basically short one person. Sounds selfish to me. And if you are serious about doing this, isn't this a suspendable offense? Aren't you purposely affecting the other people you are playing with? This is reportable you know... Dat logic

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Originally Posted by Rawk

...I will be protesting frontlines. I will be doing this by queueing Naked as often as I can...

If anyone would like to join, please do so.

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It's a grief tactic and a reportable offense. I encourage everyone to report these players who will actively try to ruin the fun of others in Frontlines.

Seriously though, again I ask, who is actually partaking in the protesting of the Frontlines now that it's out?