Has SE screwed itself?

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Passive evasion does not a tank make.

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Passive evasion *alone* does not a tank make, not because evasion is somehow worthless for a tank but because it doesn't increase eHP. The provision of regular absorb shields or a +hp bonus would provide all of the burst survivability needed, which WoW demonstrated pretty well with Druid tanks. Over time, increased evasion is just as effective at the role of increasing healing efficiency as DR and +healing. It's only over the short term that evasion becomes worthless because it isn't reliable.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Easy solution and one I can see them implementing is the inability to sync a job under level 30.

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As mentioned above, I really hope they don't do this. For one, SCHs do just fine sync'd down to level 15. Secondly, there is already an issue in the game about the number of healers available to do lower level dungeons. Reducing the possibilities from 2 to 1 would make the problem that much worse.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

As I said, you only have to increase def/mdef by 90% and the hp increase it would require would be nowhere *near* 150%.

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You're 1000 base HP behind plus 25% of total. At level 50, that's at least a 50% advantage, plus equipment discrepancy.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The positioning, enmity, and "anything else obviously missing" (like... what? tank CDs? PGL already gets 3) aren't even really issues. The devs have explicitly said that they can change the secondary effects of abilities with job changes.

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So all it would require is a complete design 180, removing all positional and combo requirements (can't have stance requirement on enmity generation), completely redoing Greased Lightning (can't have warm-up on enmity generation), vastly boosting HP, giving an boosted AoE enmity generation (50 potency means you'll be permanently reliant on cross-class Flash), adding ranged enmity somewhere (not enough ability slots), adding a tanking stance (not enough ability slots), etc. All this so you can what, use 25% Featherfoot against trash mobs and still get stomped by every single opponent of consequence?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

And those are actually pretty rare.

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Full sets at 23, 32, 38, 46. Rare compared to what, now? You can't even get any asymmetric pants until ilvl40 Paladin set. There's no pre-15 tank gear, so if we neglect the ilvl8-12 asymmetric stuff, then you have all of 10 pieces of pre-30 asymmetric armor. If you wanted to extend up to ilvl50 (excluding DRG AF), you have:

Feet -- 4 tank, 3 asymmetric
Legs -- 4 tank, 2 asymmetric
Waist -- 0 tank, 2 asymmetric
Hands -- 4 tank, 9 asymmetric
Body -- 6 tank, 9 asymmetric
Head -- 6 tank, 10 asymmetric

Total: 24 tank, 35 asymmetric

If you exclude pre-30 equipment, the count would be 18 tank, 25 asymmetric. I would hardly call that "rare" in any case. You're really just not paying any attention. Better still, it's the asymmetric sets which are random as hell. Leg and foot pieces are rare -- there are all of 3 pieces which are not random dungeon drops (Boarskin Skirt on legs, Mythril and Cobalt Sollerets on feet). Tank stuff mostly comes in complete and craftable sets, with just two chestpieces (ilvl40 Kokoroon and ilvl50 Mosshorn) and two helmets (ilvl22 Doctore's and ilvl44 Reinforced Mythril Elmo) orphaned. The only reason you think that asymmetric equipment is "LNC" is because of endgame DRG equipment. That exists because DRG is a DPS job and is the only job from the class at this time.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Hell, PGL actually has a better native CD suite than LNC does which gives them a leg up right off the bat.

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Featherfoot vs. Keen Flurry, Second Wind vs. Life Surge. Not really compelling. So what does PGL have? A gimped version of Convalescence for itself (20% over 15s compared to 30% over 20s) that comes at level 42 and is pretty much useless before 48? That's your killer cooldown?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

You don't have to make a concession for anything for the 15-30 dungeons when they level sync down. Whispering Dawn has a 60 sec CD so it's nowhere *near* Medica on effectiveness.

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AoE isn't a frequent need, but that doesn't suddenly make it a non-issue. As for the "big heal", that's level 30 for both existing jobs, and cleanse is level 40 for SCH (Leeches).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Because, you know, the "squishiest melee", as you call it, would still stay squishy if given the proper tank changes.

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Changing that requires a fundamental class design change. You call flat-out redoing every single ability such that it bears nothing at all in common with the base class. Snap Punch combo has to lose all positional bonuses and all combo requirements, making it... well, absolutely nothing like the original. Greased Lightning goes out the door completely, replaced with an entirely separate mechanic. Arm of the Destroyer needs a redo to fix balance -- can't have Silence on primary enmity generator, potency is far too low. Steel Peak requires a redo just as Brutal Swing does (though this issue is shared between LNC and PGL), but Steel Peak comes way too late for a tank. What do you have left? Twin Snakes, Demolish, and Touch of Death as random and irrelevant damage abilities, and then everything else is completely and fundamentally changed. The class has an even weaker CD suite than MRD, meaning key survival mechanics have to be stuffed into job abilities. WAR does this at level 35, throwing everything into 1 ability, while coming with a tank design out the gate (HP, enmity, defense, appropriate abilities). PGL not only needs some absurd stance which increases HP, defense, and enmity by huge amounts, it also needs a ranged pull ability just to have the most basic of functionality. This can't be cross-classed, either. So now you have to grab something like Touch of Death and turn it into a completely unrelated and new ability as well. There's nothing left of PGL at this point except for a few animations.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

LNC would require reworking or adding a large amount of gear thanks to existing inconsistencies.... [etc]

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• LNC gear is, as I showed previously, fine already. Only thing you'd need to do is add AF and endgame stuff, plus a belt or three.
• Yes, both require tank stances -- no way to avoid it for any DPS-turned-tank.
• Your claim about PGL CDs is still rubbish.
• LNC positional requirements apply only to two DPS-boosting abilities (Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive) and could be handled a number of ways -- a one-off ability or a stance or whatever. PGL requirements apply to every attack in the main combo plus Twin Snakes and have no way to be addressed except to be completely thrown out and a new, unrelated potency number assigned to each attack.
• LNC has a normal combo in Full Thrust. PGL does not. PGL will need to boost the potency of attacks to keep up with enmity needs as well as boost potency of DoTs to address damage issues.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

10k gil is nothing so I'm not even sure what you were trying to say with that bet.

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Mitt Romney joke.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Also, I never said that PGL would be guaranteed to get a tank job, simply that I believe that it would be much more likely to get one than LNC. If you want to make a bet that PGL will get a tank job before LNC, I'll take you up on that, mainly because I honestly think that they'll bring in a light armor tank before they bring in another heavy armor tank. The fact that, from a developmental standpoint, PGL also presents an easier target for "tankification" is just icing on the cake.

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You're on.

For the record, I'm pulling for PGL healer.

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Originally Posted by Starfox71rt

As mentioned above, I really hope they don't do this. For one, SCHs do just fine sync'd down to level 15. Secondly, there is already an issue in the game about the number of healers available to do lower level dungeons. Reducing the possibilities from 2 to 1 would make the problem that much worse.

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They could always add another healing class later on though. SCH is the exception when it comes to this but its only because of the fairy really. Every other job currently seems to benefit from doing pre-30 content as their class as it is so might as well just make it a rule. I do agree it'd be terrible in the current game to drop the amount of healers but if they ever add another healing class I think they should do the restriction in the same patch.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

But they really really are easier.

New Job entails:
Creating 5 new abilities and their animations
Adjusting some class abilities (no need to modify all of them)
Create 5 quests and a storyline

New Class entails:
Creating a new weapon type which requires new base animations.
Creating 17-18 new abilities and their animations
Creating 1-2 new jobs (5-10 new abilities) and their animations
Balancing 11 new traits
Create 9-10 class quests and storyline
Create 5-10 job quests and 1-2 storylines

A new job does not need to be similar to the base class either. Again with ACN/SMN/SCH. The role they gave SCH is nothing like the role they gave ACN/SMN. They even changed SCH substantially from how it is in other titles in the series. It never once had pets/fairies and was only given healing magic roughly half of the time and even then rarely could function as the sole healer. They've usually been and played better as a debuffer or damage dealer (similar to how SMN is now). On that note, SMN also has taken an entirely different approach than it has in the series.

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Here is where your argument falls flat.
They would need to come up with a way to change an existing class, to become something new. So you are automatically limited by what the existing class uses. The existing skills would need rebuilds anyway, since they need to fill a different role now.
I'll use Conjurer as an example here.
Conjurer gets 2 Damage spells, Stone and Aero. Yes, we have Stone II and Aero II, but its basically the same thing. In order to have the Conjurer gain a DPS job, the 5 new skills gained from the Job would have to be main rotational buttons, or your brand spanking new DPS Conjurer Job is spamming Stone II. Sounds fun.
So ok, you have your 5 new shiny buttons and have 7 DPS spells now, awesome! Except for one thing. You still have access to virtually every spell a WHM uses to heal. So now you have a DPS Job that can heal almost as well as a WHM, and has all the traits of a WHM.
Nope, cant even use a SMN or BLM as an excuse here, because spamming Physick won't get you far. Since you would have Medica, Medica II, Cure III, Graniteskin and every other tool a CNJ has without becoming a WHM. You would also have Cleric Stance.
Oops, can't use that in your new DPS Job, a blanked out button, something we currently do not see. No Job prevents the use of a skill gained from its base class. And what happens when you try to do Sastasha -> Toto-rak runs? Congrats, you may spam Stone / Stone II from start to finish. Exciting stuff.

Any new jobs to be attached our existing classes NEED to be continuations of what the base class currently is. Otherwise, You're trying to make unique jobs out of half a class. It wont work and will feel awkward and bland.

The Archer is a class i can see getting a new Job. Sniper, no songs except that learned as an Archer, with a very heavy focus on dealing big burst hits.

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I would very much like to see more multi-job classes, If only because i like variety.
But i do very much feel that any multi-job classes should be created new, from scratch, to be multi-job, the way the ACN was.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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Your CNJ example doesn't really work. A job's stats are dependent upon the job soul equipped. If you look at ACN/SMN/SCH you'll see SCH has a ton more MND and SMN has a ton more INT before gear is even taken into consideration. This is including SCH getting INT traits. When gear comes into play the difference is quite high.

If a CNJ equipped a DPS job soul they could get vast amounts of INT and their MND could drop to double digits rendering their heals as useful as a SMN or BLM's Physick, nice to have in a pinch but useless otherwise.

As someone stated before the dev team has come right out and said that they can simply remove an enmity trait to a skill and replace it with another trait for any job. Your CNJ example could see a DPS job getting a passive that changes the effect of Cleric Stance to negate the swapping of INT and MND. Then the CNJ DPS could fulltime Cleric Stance, freeing up a job ability for an attack or a job ability that facilitates attacking.

Using my GEO idea in my signature: Casting Nature's Fury>Nature's Wrath>Geomancy>Aero>Thunder>Aero II>Stone II(spam) honestly isn't too different than a SMN's Shadowflare>Bio II>Miasma>Thunder>Bio>Fester>Ruin(spam) or a BLM's Thunder III>Fire III>Fire(spam)>Blizzard III>Scathe>ThunderIII. Essentially they're the same amount of "fun" button presses. SMN get's a pet thrown in for more things to do, BLM gets a proc system for more things to do and a DPS CNJ like my GEO could toss in a Medica II after taking off Cleric Stance real quick and use its group MP restore in a similar fashion to how a BRD is a DPS but still gets some support.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

You're 1000 base HP behind plus 25% of total. At level 50, that's at least a 50% advantage, plus equipment discrepancy.

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Equipment discrepancy doesn't actually exist, since the left side gear for MNK gets *the exact same amount of VIT as the tank gear*; the gear discrepancy only exists on the right side (there's a *slight* discrepancy on weapon, but it's tiny). Furthermore, going entirely off of MNK base stats means nothing because, as SCH already proves, the devs can easily have the jobs tweak the base attributes immensely: naked and without attributes, my SCH gets 20 less INT, 71 more MND, and 30 more PIE. It's a safe prediction that a PGL tank would get a similar difference in base stats compared to MNK what with the *completely different role*. The only hp tweak that would be needed *at all* would be an hp increase equal to what the WAR gets and that's only for eHP purposes.

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So all it would require is a complete design 180, removing all positional and combo requirements (can't have stance requirement on enmity generation), completely redoing Greased Lightning (can't have warm-up on enmity generation), vastly boosting HP, giving an boosted AoE enmity generation (50 potency means you'll be permanently reliant on cross-class Flash), adding ranged enmity somewhere (not enough ability slots), adding a tanking stance (not enough ability slots), etc.

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Care to explain why the combo requirements have to be removed because, you know, it's not like WAR and PLD don't already use them? The form cycle that PGL gets would work perfectly fine for a tank. Redoing Greased Lightning makes no sense either since WAR already proves that the devs have no problem with minor damage build up (recognize that I said that Greased Lightning in tank stance *wouldn't get the +dam buff*, which equates to the -dam debuff). As I've pointed out before, it wouldn't need any more of an hp boost than WAR. I'm also curious why you think that Arm of the Destroyer wouldn't get additional enmity added to it; it's not as if it's magically not allowed to have that but everything else is. Furthermore, how is the addition of a tanking stance a problem? That's like saying that Defiance doesn't exist because there isn't space.

The only problem you brought up that doesn't exist purely within your own mind is the issue of not having a ranged attack, which I don't think is a *massive* issue, since it's only really used as a pulling mechanism. Having one tank lack a ranged attack doesn't really penalize it appreciably.

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The only reason you think that asymmetric equipment is "LNC" is because of endgame DRG equipment.

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No, the reason I think that the asymmetric equipment is "LNC" is because the "LNC" gear is itself rare and, even according to your own numbers, tank distributed LNC gear is in the minority. For a *vast* majority of the game, a LNC is going to be wearing the same gear as a MNK. When it starts getting its own specific gear rather than just random leveling pieces, it's all asymmetrically distributed. On top of that, if you check, you'll notice that even the tank distributed LNC is still itemized for DPS. To get a LNC tank class, you have to overhaul/add an impressive amount of gear, unless you really want the class to have less than a quarter of the tank gear options that the other tanks get.

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Featherfoot vs. Keen Flurry, Second Wind vs. Life Surge. Not really compelling. So what does PGL have? A gimped version of Convalescence for itself (20% over 15s compared to 30% over 20s) that comes at level 42 and is pretty much useless before 48? That's your killer cooldown?

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Featherfoot is 25% evasion for 15 seconds. Keen Flurry is 80% parry for 20 seconds. Both are on a 90 sec CD. Assuming a baseline 5% dodge rate, Featherfoot is a 21% decrease in damage taken while active and 3.5% decrease in damage taken over time (it goes up to 34.5% and 5.75%, respectively, if you apply the 22.5% increased evasion with the PGL tank like I suggested). With a 20% base parry chance and 20% parry value, Keen Flurry is a 16.67% decrease in damage taken while active and a 3.7% decrease in damage taken over time (and it can't really get appreciably better since you're already capping off the chance of getting a parry).

Second Wind is based off of attack power so it's unaffected by debuffs and Life Surge is based off of damage dealt. Tank stances apply a 20% reduction in damage dealt so we can make the reasonable assumption that a tank will get only 80% of the comparative value between Second Wind and Life Surge that currently applies to DPS. At level 40, with equal attack power, my DRG was critting for 320 with combo'd Full Thrust and my MNK was healing for 440 with Second Wind (not crit). With tank stance factored in, assuming that the ratio remains the same, Life Surge would provide 240 healing once per minute when used with your strongest attack ; Second Wind would provide 440 every 2 minutes, off GCD, whenever you need it. When you factor in that Second Wind can crit, they provide the same amount of healing over time but Second Wind actually allows you to heal when you need it rather than being contingent.

As for Mantra, PLD doesn't get Sentinel til 38 and Enhanced Sentinel til 48, and it's exactly as strong for MNK as Convalescence is for WAR with the same CD and only a slightly shorter duration (15 v. 20). Unless you're willing to say that the strongest CD that WAR gets is utterly horrible, you can't really badmouth Mantra.

Furthermore, look at their DPS CDs: Blood for Blood couldn't be used by a tank effectively; Internal Release is already used by one (and would actually end up being a tank CD if there were some mitigation bonus for scoring a crit, as I suggested in my first post).

So, yes, if you actually look at their CD suites, the PGL CD suite is definitely better for tanks. The self heal is more useful, the DPS buff can actually be used, the mitigation buff works better with tank gear (since Parry Rating increases frequency not value; that 80% is going to be pretty redundant at higher gear ratings), and there's one more tool in their toolbox.

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AoE isn't a frequent need, but that doesn't suddenly make it a non-issue.

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Before you hit 30/35, yeah, it's a non-issue: there just isn't that much AoE damage before then. The only time you need an AoE heal before Cutter's Cry is when multiple people stand in bad shit or people explicitly screw up a simple mechanic, like the fire adds in Halatali or the lanterns in Haukke Manor. Before Succor at 35, SCH just has Whispering Dawn has a 60 second CD. If AoE healing wasn't a non-issue pre-30/35, SCH would be impossible to play most of the time. You can manage to heal anything that you might have to level sync for with a single heal *easily*.

[quote]As for the "big heal", that's level 30 for both existing jobs, and cleanse is level 40 for SCH (Leeches).

That was kind of my point. When SCH syncs sub-30, they can still heal fully effectively because you don't really *need* an AoE heal or cleanse until your late 30s, and, even then, you can most non-50 content no issue without the cleanse (and I've met more than a few healers that don't use the cleanse on anything except for the Titan gaol debuff). The AoE heal and cleanse are *nice* to have sub-30 or even sub-35, but they're nowhere *near* necessary.

My issue is that you're bringing up sub-30 level syncing as if it were some kind of major issue that needs to be balanced around when, honestly, you don't really need to. As long as you know that they'll have Cure or Physick, which was agreed upon as an acceptable baseline assumption, they can heal the low level dungeons just fine. Hell, a THM or BLM with Physick can heal the low level dungeons just fine thanks to all of the Mind on caster gear before gear "specializes" in the late 30s/40s.

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Changing that requires a fundamental class design change.

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No, it doesn't unless you're simply coming up with massive modifications that wouldn't be needed in the least. Adding the Wrath stack generation to all of the WAR combos didn't necessitate flat out redoing every single ability. It's modifying a single tag. I'm still not even sure where you're digging up the removal of all combo requirements; you just kind of came up with that entirely on your own out of nothing.

Removing the positionals wouldn't completely change the feeling of the class either: you're still using the attacks in the same order; the only difference is that you're not bouncing from flank to back and back to flank, which you do the same on DRG (unless your issue is simply a problem with DRG only doing it for 2 attacks rather than 4, at which point your setting kind of an arbitrary difference in positional importance based upon how many abilities apply the given benefits) so, unless you think that removing positionals for DRG would completely change the feeling of it as well (especially since you don't even get to access the second LNC combo if you don't get a back attack with the starter; front or side attacking with Impulse Drive doesn't trigger the combo), the feeling is being preserved just as well. The only thing changing is the massive movement aspect, which is present for all mDPS (and likely will *continue* to be the mDPS schtick) and completely absent from tanks.

Greased Lightning would be *exactly* the same with the exception that the Greased Lightning benefits are now 7.5% evasion and 5% attack speed instead of 7.5% damage and 5% attack speed; I'm not entirely sure how you can get "entirely separate mechanic" out of that.

Arm of the Destroyer wouldn't need a massive fix either. It only gets the silence when you use it on Opo-opo form, which means that you have to use it after you use a coeurl form attack, and it puts you into raptor form by using it so you couldn't silence spam with it either. All *it* would require is an additional enmity tag. The silence on it is entirely controllable so there's no tweak needed.

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What do you have left? Twin Snakes, Demolish, and Touch of Death as random and irrelevant damage abilities, and then everything else is completely and fundamentally changed.

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Have you even *played* MNK? Unless you're hiding a completely different character somewhere else, you've gotten as high as 13, which explains why you really have no idea what you're talking about. Boot Shine and True Strike would be pretty much entirely untouched by removing the positional bonuses. Twin Snakes would actually be affected more than either of those, though it's affected less than Heavy Swing, which fulfills the exact same purpose, so arguing about *that* getting screwed by removing positional bonuses while saying that LNC isn't is just blatantly ignorant. It doesn't even change the actual *feel* of Snap Punch either, since it's an attack with no secondary effect regardless of what you do.

Hell, if you refuse to get rid of positional requirements, *DRG* is going to be the one that changes how it plays and feels completely because, unlike DRG, MNK can actually use all of its attacks while in front of something; DRG is restricted to a single completely vanilla combo. If you actually played the combat classes rather than spending all of your time crafting you might actually understand that.

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The class has an even weaker CD suite than MRD, meaning key survival mechanics have to be stuffed into job abilities.

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Really? Do you have *any* idea what you're talking about? MAR has Foresight, which is a complete and utter joke; Bloodbath, which is just as much of a joke; and Thrill of Battle, which is laughably weak given its 3 minute CD and 10 second duration. PGL actually has a *stronger* CD suite than MAR by a *huge* amount. Hell, that's the entire reason why MAR has to borrow 2-3 of those PGL CDs: the MAR CD suite *sucks*.

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PGL not only needs some absurd stance which increases HP, defense, and enmity by huge amounts

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So PGL needs an "absurd" stance that does the exact same thing that Defiance does? Seriously. What are you smoking?

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, it also needs a ranged pull ability just to have the most basic of functionality. This can't be cross-classed, either.

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Explain to me how a ranged pull ability is "the most basic functionality". You don't *need* a ranged pull ability. Hell, 90% of the time, I don't use Tomahawk or Shield Lob because they're not needed. They're nothing even remotely *close* to "basic functionality"; at best, they're secondary functionality that you'd notice not having a few times in the entire game, especially since PGL already gets Howling Fist for those times when you *absolutely* have to have a ranged attack.

I also find it amusing that you say that it can't be gotten through additionals because, you know, you say so (additionals are assigned arbitrarily; the devs could make Rage of Halone an additional for a PGL and *only* PGL if they wanted; it's just adding that class to the ability's affinities). Tomahawk or Piercing Talon could be put on the additionals list with no problem; the name would be kind of weird, but no stranger than a BLM using Quelling Strikes or a LNC using Straight Shot.

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So now you have to grab something like Touch of Death and turn it into a completely unrelated and new ability as well.

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Wait, what? Is your entire argument here "refuge in audacity" or do you just have no clue what you're talking about? Touch of Death wouldn't need to be touched at all. The mere suggestion of this is so ludicrous that it boggles the mind that you would even suggest it.

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There's nothing left of PGL at this point except for a few animations.

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Except, you know, everything that wouldn't be touched if the person doing the changes weren't a complete and utter *idiot*. The attack string/rotation and playstyle would be preserved with the exception of not having positions. Greased Lightning would be tweaked *slightly*. Everything else would remain *exactly as is*. You're acting as if removing the positional requirement on an attack and adding a high enmity modifier completely and utterly changes everything about the ability. Using that logic, WAR is *completely and utterly* different from MAR because, when you turn WAR, some of your attacks start generating Wrath stacks. Are you even *reading* what you're saying here or just trying to come up with any feasible change that might be required and then blowing it monumentally out of proportion and decrying it as the end of world on purpose?

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LNC gear is, as I showed previously, fine already. Only thing you'd need to do is add AF and endgame stuff, plus a belt or three.

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Except that it's not. Hell, the very fact that LNC gear is so schizophrenic about its defense/mdef allotment (it can be low symmetrical, asymmetrical, or high symmetrical) means that the itemization for it would be even *wonkier* than I already suggested.

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Your claim about PGL CDs is still rubbish.

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Unless you actually *look* at their CDs rather than just counting them, ignoring the most powerful, and calling it a day.

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LNC positional requirements apply only to two DPS-boosting abilities (Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive) and could be handled a number of ways -- a one-off ability or a stance or whatever. PGL requirements apply to every attack in the main combo plus Twin Snakes and have no way to be addressed except to be completely thrown out and a new, unrelated potency number assigned to each attack.

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Have you actually looked at what the positional bonuses actually are or did you do another "I counted but didn't actually look at them"? It's an increased crit chance on the first attack and second attack and increased potency on the other 2. All secondary effects are entirely preserved. With DRG, you miss out on your entire second combo and get none of the much more important secondary effects. While PGL has *more* positional requirements/bonuses but DRG is impacted by those positional requirement/bonuses just as as much. If you actually look at what the positionals do rather than just counting them, it's pretty evident that they're both positionally dependent.

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LNC has a normal combo in Full Thrust. PGL does not. PGL will need to boost the potency of attacks to keep up with enmity needs as well as boost potency of DoTs to address damage issues.

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Unless you, you know, just remove the positional requirements and fold the effects into the baseline performance of the ability. I find it amusing that you seem to think that the entirety of a tank's rotation is perfectly fine with a single combo with no secondary effects, though. It's like you honestly believe that PLD isn't painfully boring to play.

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Mitt Romney joke.

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Not really. You get more than that by running AK/WP 2-3 times. If you've got a character in full DL, a second 50, or a reasonably high crafting class, you can't really claim that 10k gil is anything resembling an impressive amount of gil unless you're just bad at money management; it takes less than an hour to get that. Hell, you can make more than 10k with a gathering class in your 20s in less than an hour if you're remotely market savvy.

I'm nowhere *near* top 1% or even top 10%, but 10k isn't really all that much. It's like betting lunch at a diner.

Holy

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Wall of text

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Batman.

I still don't see the point of classes

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Conjurer gets 2 Damage spells, Stone and Aero. Yes, we have Stone II and Aero II, but its basically the same thing.

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That's like saying Bio and Bio II are the same thing (here's a hint: they're not). The DoTs stack and Aero II just so happens to have a cast time and shorter, higher potency DoT (40 for 12 instead of 25 for 18). Ignoring Stone I (since it does less damage and is only there for the Heavy application), that's 3 attacks that CNJ brings to the table. If you add in Thunder from THM, that's 4, all of which are entirely viable attacks. Toss in 3-4 rotational DPS abilities from your job (the others would go to an AoE and a damage buff, methinks) and you've got a full 7-8 abilities that can be used to form a pretty effective rotation (the WAR and PLD rotations are composed of 5 attacks primarily, so 7-8 is plenty).

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Except for one thing. You still have access to virtually every spell a WHM uses to heal. So now you have a DPS Job that can heal almost as well as a WHM, and has all the traits of a WHM.

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As Marta has already said, just because you have a heal doesn't mean it'll be useful. Medica and Medica II aren't going to heal for *shit* when you've got next to no MND. It's for this exact reason why Physick on a BLM is so flippin' terrible *and BLM has the same 30% increased healing from traits that WHM has*. All it takes to turn those heals into laughable side benefit heals is a drastic reduction in MND, which is easily possible with the job changes.

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You would also have Cleric Stance.
Oops, can't use that in your new DPS Job, a blanked out button, something we currently do not see. No Job prevents the use of a skill gained from its base class.

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Why do you think that Cleric Stance wouldn't be allowed to use just because the class is DPS? There's no reason *not* to allow it to be used, since it wouldn't really provide any benefit whatsoever. Activating it would be a nerf to your damage since it swaps you MND and INT, increases damage dealt, and reduces healing. Turning it on would end up decreasing your damage by a crapton (since a safe bet would be that MND is half of what your INT would be) even with the 10% increase and likely leaving your healing exactly where it was before thanks to the 20% reduction in damage dealt. It would just be a stupid vestigial ability that doesn't get used, just like Energy Drain for SCH.

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And what happens when you try to do Sastasha -> Toto-rak runs? Congrats, you may spam Stone / Stone II from start to finish. Exciting stuff.

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Have you played a SCH when you level sync down to those dungeons? Your life is Eos and Physick spam, if you're healing. For damage, you've got Bio, Miasma, and Ruin so it's not like there's that much of a difference. Level syncing isn't really an issue in the least.

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Any new jobs to be attached our existing classes NEED to be continuations of what the base class currently is. Otherwise, You're trying to make unique jobs out of half a class. It wont work and will feel awkward and bland.

The Archer is a class i can see getting a new Job. Sniper, no songs except that learned as an Archer, with a very heavy focus on dealing big burst hits.

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The problem with this idea is what's the point of even having it? It would be exactly the same with 5 abilities different and 5 abilities isn't going to change. At best, you'll have 2 classes that are so similar in performance that the choice doesn't matter and, at worst, you'll have one job that is explicitly *better*, which renders the other redundant. Any second jobs that happens are pretty much *guaranteed* to be of a different role than the first job, mainly because jobs need to be different enough to actually have a reason to exist. Why would you bother adding Blue Mage to Thaum if it's plays just like BLM with Freeze and Flare replaced by Flamethrower and Aqua Breath? Different jobs on the same class *need* different roles to prevent the jobs from just being effective duplicates of one another. The only way to appreciably differentiate jobs based off of the same class is to have them perform completely different roles.

Seriously, how would you add the "very heavy focus on big burst hits" to ARC in 5 abilities without making it broken as hell? How are you going to get rid of all of the ARC abilities that focus on craploads of little hits through free attacks and DoTs? The only way you're going to get a completely different style of DPS is to create an entirely different class built around that construct, with the abilities and traits to support it. The way the classes/jobs are set up now, you're too heavily invested in the class to have the job make enough of a difference to support 2 separate DPS jobs.