Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

What kinda backwards defeatist logic is this?

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Call it whatever you'd like. I call it pragmatism. If you actually think that we're not getting something equivalent to WAR, you're on full copium. PLD is going to look like WAR, more or less, after a major rework, with likely Req being the candidate for the changes to become our Inner Release. It's possible it will be patterned more after GNB, but I don't think it's likely. Yoshida very explicitly said that they would be moving forward with "5.0 design" during LL's leading up to EW and we've seen proof of that in the class changes so far. It's absurd to think they'll make an exception for a class that's underperforming on both DPS and durability.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

100% agree to this.
Especially with these forced downtime mechanic's in savage.
Someone got hit by something not fatal but the healer are on the other side of the arena, clemency and nothing happened.
Someone dodged a healer have more important things to do then to look on others HP, Clemency.

Not everything needs to be a useful dmg GCD, verity and situational save's is one part what makes PLD fun to play.

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If someone got hit by an effect but are away from a healer, they do not need healing - they will be completely fine for the half a second it takes for them to get back in range of the healer. Raid damage is rigidly scripted. There will be no "unexpected" damage they take otherwise. If you're not talking about savage or ultimate, then it doesn't matter anyway since you quite literally don't even need a full 8 player party to clear those unless they have some kind of body check gimmick that's also an instant death if failed - I can't think of any normals that qualify there.

If it's forced downtime, then the healers literally have nothing else to do. It's not like healing is in short supply.

If you are actually trying to Clemency someone so that the healer "doesn't have to check their HP"... dude. You're probably aggravating your healers. Cut it out. If you want to heal, play a healer. Paladin is not a healer.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

PLD is going to look like WAR, more or less, after a major rework, with likely Req being the candidate for the changes to become our Inner Release.

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TBF, Req was the original in 4.0, and 4.2 WAR's IR was patterned after Req, not the other way round. Press CD, get X presses of 'the heavy hit' skill. It's just that over time, WAR became known for it more, I guess cos Holy Spirit doesn't catch the eye quite as much as 5 Fell Cleaves did.

Still, slapping Clemency onto the oath Gauge/shared charges with Sheltron is probably not the worst, it'd mean PLD can actually heal, which it's kinda meant to be known for (using low levels of white magic). It's pretty weird to me at least that GNB has more access to 'i know i'll help heal the co-tank with this OGCD i have spare' than PLD is. Tying it to gauge would also mean having to decide, can the other tank live without your Intervention? Would Intervention mitigate more damage than the Clemency would restore? Is it a double TB, meaning that Clemency gets extra mileage due to half of the healing returning to the PLD? But also factor in, if you are using Sentinel/Rampart for your own half of the TB, this also amplifies the effect of Intervention. Oh lord this sounds dangerously close to 'optimization' so we'd better not, instead let's leave Clemency in this weird limbo of 'it only gets used when everything goes completely wrong, and it's a wipe anyway'

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

snip/ Paladin is not a healer.

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Depends on the situation and fight and your group.

I've been a 3rd healer in p4sp2 for our first clear because we had two low percent wipes before due to random player dieing and because we were not able to discuss our CD usage. It was the last pull of the week and I helped to heal everyone who dodged a heal by running out to fast/ not coming back fast enough.
After that clear we discussed CD usage and I didn't have to use clemency the other clears.

p8s has seen some clemencys too.

And that's the nice thing, it is a situational skill that under 100% perfect conditions is never used.
But this is not always the case, especially while fresh prog of a fight.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Not everything has to be a meaningful DPS button. It's why every class is losing its identity and becoming the same as every other. Clemency is one of the main draws for me to paladin. If they're going to turn Clemency into another Equilibrium and remove Cover then I might as well just play Warrior because there's nothing special Paladin now brings.

I don't care that it costs a GCD if means I can use it to save someone or myself when a run is going bad, because (and I know this might be hard to believe for most of you out there) not every boss attempt or dungeon run goes perfectly 100% of the time. People make mistakes, and it's nice to have something to fall back on.

Paladin has its fair share of problems, but changing the class so it plays exactly like the other 3 tanks is not the solution.

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Clemancy currently is not a defining feature of PLD that makes it unique to other tanks. Making it an OGCD with Oath cost would make it unique however, because no other tank can burst heal that much on command. Even GNB's is a long cool down they have to give someone else instead of themselves, comes with damage reduction, and requires Excog proc or a long delay. WAR's requires several GCDs to receive the effect. Clemancy would be the most like WAR's since it heals both PLD and the target, but it's an instant burst heal with two charges. That still feels very PLD-esque and unique, and would be infinitely more fun to use because you would actually be able to use it very often. Playing PLD would have a lot of healer-like qualities, which is exactly its job fantasy.

Changing Clemancy to this way would probably make PLD even better at saving runs, since you could actually use it and most of the time prevent the runs from getting so bad that you need GCD Clemancy for.

Making Clemancy actually usable would not make it "exactly like the other 3 tanks."

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Clemancy currently is not a defining feature of PLD that makes it unique to other tanks. Making it an OGCD with Oath cost would make it unique however, because no other tank can burst heal that much on command. Even GNB's is a long cool down they have to give someone else instead of themselves, comes with damage reduction, and requires Excog proc or a long delay. WAR's requires several GCDs to receive the effect. Clemancy would be the most like WAR's since it heals both PLD and the target, but it's an instant burst heal with two charges. That still feels very PLD-esque and unique, and would be infinitely more fun to use because you would actually be able to use it very often. Playing PLD would have a lot of healer-like qualities, which is exactly its job fantasy.

Changing Clemancy to this way would probably make PLD even better at saving runs, since you could actually use it and most of the time prevent the runs from getting so bad that you need GCD Clemancy for.

Making Clemancy actually usable would not make it "exactly like the other 3 tanks."

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What are you talking about?

Currently, Holy Sheltron, Intervention, and Cover requires Oath gauge. Making Clemency require Oath gauge makes PLD weaker when they need to heal, not stronger. They don't get more healing power because Holy Sheltron / Intervention is supposed to be used to get more healing through your gauge. You have to pay a gauge tax on cover, which makes cover even worse after since there's multiple skills sharing the same gauge resource for healing -- which reduces the overall survivability of PLD.

Oath gauge only regenerates when you are auto attacking. However, the MP gauge will always be readily available due to the number of MP affecting skills PLD currently possesses. Keeping Clemency separate from the gauge is the better tbh.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

If you're worried about homogenization... buddy, where have you *been* for the past few years? "5.0 design" is all *about* homogenizing things, and Yoshida was very clear that they would be continuing to design the game along those lines. If you want unique classes with different gimmicks, you need to play a different game.

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Oof, you got me. Time to turn in my keys. How dare I want my favourite class to not change significantly and simply become a copy of a different tank? I guess I shall quit playing.


/s

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

What are you talking about?

Currently, Holy Sheltron, Intervention, and Cover requires Oath gauge. Making Clemency require Oath gauge makes PLD weaker when they need to heal, not stronger. They don't get more healing power because Holy Sheltron / Intervention is supposed to be used to get more healing through your gauge. You have to pay a gauge tax on cover, which makes cover even worse after since there's multiple skills sharing the same gauge resource for healing -- which reduces the overall survivability of PLD.

Oath gauge only regenerates when you are auto attacking. However, the MP gauge will always be readily available due to the number of MP affecting skills PLD currently possesses. Keeping Clemency separate from the gauge is the better tbh.

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Because you can't currently use Clemancy realistically due to it being a GCD. You get a 1k regen with Intervention, and Cover is basically never used. Clemancy gives a 1k direct heal and 500 potency heal on the PLD when used on someone else, together that's 1500 potency heal, more than Intervention. Intervention does give mitigation, but you can always buff Clemancy as an OGCD if needed. Having strong burst healing with OGCD Clemancy would be far better because it would be actually usable. I never really liked Oath gauge being tied to auto attacks, it's "unique" but bad because of down time that other tanks don't suffer from, yet still have similar cooldowns. Regardless, your argument of "when they need to heal" isn't logical; the goal is to prevent the run from getting that bad in the first place, and being able to actually use Clemancy reliably without losing DPS would help with that a lot more. You're also not always MT as PLD.

I'm just ignoring Cover for now because that's a completely separate topic.

PLD has enough self-healing and self sustain on max Level with his whole magic rotation healing him plus a HoT on holy shiltron and intervention.
He doesn't need more free direct healing.
The clemency option is good as it is now.

With intervention he even has the strongest skill to help the MT. A other tank can take a shared buster alone, when he gets a buffed intervention.

I don't really understand why some player think that PLD need more/ different defensive tools. I think his current mitigation kit is the best and most versatile of all tanks.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

PLD has enough self-healing and self sustain on max Level with his whole magic rotation healing him plus a HoT on holy shiltron and intervention.
He doesn't need more free direct healing.
The clemency option is good as it is now.

With intervention he even has the strongest skill to help the MT. A other tank can take a shared buster alone, when he gets a buffed intervention.

I don't really understand why some player think that PLD need more/ different defensive tools. I think his current mitigation kit is the best and most versatile of all tanks.

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I disagree with this entire post, and undeniably mathematically proven objectively PLD has the worst mitigation out of the tanks. PLD needs more direct healing and Clemancy is terrible as it is now.

Depends on what fight you base your math on and what you want to mitigate.

Overall I would say that all Tank's are fine with mitigation right now. Especially after the living dead adjustment.