Is the WoL actually good though?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

My mistake on which broodmother, it's been a while.

Of course, you're also leaving out any context. Like how the broodmother in question was preparing to start a war and was willing to commit genocide on the Ondo if they didn't join her, or that they were displaced because of a literal apocalypse and violently refusing any attempts at peace. But "the Scions are murdering racists" is easier, I guess.

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Huh? I think you may want to go back and read through my post again. I didn't suggest that there weren't reasons for it happening or justifications. I simply pointed out that if a particular character has to justify the murder of a pregnant woman then they're morally grey at best. I'm not suggesting everyone has to agree with that - it's just my personal thoughts on the subject.

Furthermore at no point did I suggest that the Scions were 'racist', either. Murderers? Certainly. There's plenty of lives which could have been spared but were not. Though there has been a pleasant shift towards trying to save as many people as possible as of late Shadowbringers and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Furthermore at no point did I suggest that the Scions were 'racist', either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Of course, I suppose it helps that the pregnant woman in question was an off shoot of the Sahagin! I imagine the situation would be taken very differently by most if it was a pregnant woman who looked like Venat, Lyse or Y'shtola instead.

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Yeah, you kinda did. Even if not intentional, it's pretty hard not to read it like that.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yeah, you kinda did. Even if not intentional, it's pretty hard not to read it like that.

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I dont see it as racist at all. Moreso it seems to be more like, if this character wasnt ugly but actually pretty instead. Factually people react more positively and understanding towards someone they perceive as pretty or handsome. I think we even see this mirrored in game where after the omega fight he uses his female form to talk to us.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yeah, you kinda did. Even if not intentional, it's pretty hard not to read it like that.

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Well, if the shoe fits...though I was referring more to her appearance rather than her race.

I thought it was interesting that the Scions approved of the idea of moving mountains in order to rescue Halric and Ga Bu who were both - conveniently - presented as 'cute' but there's only stubborn commitment to the idea of putting down a desperate broodmother despite her pregnancy and the consequences being the risk of her people dying out or at least fading into irrelevancy.

Or it's because Halric and Ga Bu are harmless while the broodmother is out ordering war and murder.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Or it's because Halric and Ga Bu are harmless while the broodmother is out ordering war and murder.

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Before a cure was developed for Tempering the Tempered were not considered to be harmless as they would inevitably try and work towards bringing forth the Primal that they were Tempered by. Tesleen died in large part due to Halric, from what I recall.

It took time, effort and resources to isolate and care for both Halric and Ga Bu. Personally I think a pregnant woman is exactly the sort of individual that the Warrior of Light and Scions should have moved mountains in order to save. Sure, it would have taken a lot of convincing and not necessarily even worked but it always made me raise an eyebrow at how quickly she was written off.

Furthermore, the territorial dispute and war was only escalated as a direct result of the method of arrival for the Scions. Namely Bismarck's magical bubble.

In the end, I don't think the circumstances matter all that much. At the end of the day the Warrior of Light and the Scions put down a pregnant woman and that, to me, places them firmly in the 'morally grey' category in my book. Which isn't the condemnation some may believe it to be but rather a reflection of reality and forced hands.

You can't really answer a virtue ethics question with deontology.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Before a cure was developed for Tempering the Tempered were not considered to be harmless as they would inevitably try and work towards bringing forth the Primal that they were Tempered by. Tesleen died in large part due to Halric, from what I recall.

It took time, effort and resources to isolate and care for both Halric and Ga Bu. Personally I think a pregnant woman is exactly the sort of individual that the Warrior of Light and Scions should have moved mountains in order to save. Sure, it would have taken a lot of convincing and not necessarily even worked but it always made me raise an eyebrow at how quickly she was written off.

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The whole Ga Bu storyline is encircled with continuous fighting of the tempered Kobolds and the rest of Eorzea. We still killed them, and they still killed us. At no point did we decide to lay down arms during this time, although we did go out of our way to figure out a way to remove the tempering, bringing the Kobolds back to a level where we could actually start to develop a relationship that did not involve death and violence.

Note that this was two-fold: prevent the Kobolds from succeeding in calling Titan to help them dominate Eorzea, but also trying to figure out a way to untemper them so that they might be reasoned with.

The solution for Halric, as provided by Tesleen herself, was "a quick, painless death was better than becoming one of the Sin Eaters". It was providence that the death of the Light Warden provided breathing room to find a solution that did not involve eating a poisoned fruit.

As for that wonderful 'pregnant mother' ... The lead up to the dungeon instance includes the following discussion:

Tolshs Aath says "It is clear that their queen will sssoon give birth. They require space to raise their young, and food for both queen and hatchlings to thrive.
Y'shtola says "Well, we can hardly fault them for that.
Tolshs Aath then talks about 'normal circumstances', followed by "They seek to build an army, and with it take revenge upon the finless. It is not a surprise. They came to us no long ago, seeking allies for the cause. We rebuffed them, of course ... Their queen, however, desires only bloodshed ..."
Y'shtola replies "I doubt this can be resolved without violence, but perhaps with a show of force we can convince them to see reason before the die is cast".

"Mom" wasn't having any of it ... one does not argue when violence is the chosen response to our arrival.

Theodric's claims in this post string are purely deontological. If you do 'X', that is morally wrong. That sort of approach works for evaluating decisions, but not for evaluating people, which is why it's irrelevant to the topic. Omega's questline touched on this principle as well.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Theodric's claims in this post string are purely deontological. If you do 'X', that is morally wrong. That sort of approach works for evaluating decisions, but not for evaluating people, which is why it's irrelevant to the topic. Omega's questline touched on this principle as well.

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Not even really deontological. Deontological duties have to applied evenly and universally in order to be true moral statements. Saying "its always bad to kill a pregnant woman" sounds wonderful if you're intention is to create a rule that both sounds great without context and condemns the Scions. Its not great when you're the one facing down a 15 foot tall pregnant woman wielding magics and a large club whose sole desire in that moment is beat you to death for the crime of not wanting a genocidal war. Self-defense would be immoral if we make that a duty, and thus the only right option is to allow your head to be caved in. I'm sure those condemning the Scions would be happy to step forward and accept that end right?