SAM players are quitting

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

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1. Given that I play several jobs that have cast times and are often expected to stand in melee range to do them, absolutely. It's not difficult and to believe it is shows you never played a Caster. The job gauge meter is a walk in the park and you're acting like SAM is the only job with two meters and cast times as melee. RPR says hi, as does MNK and DRG with their far more unforgiving meters if you happen to get caught out. BTW, in most content, if a Caster gets slapped by a PBaoE they typically die, you don't unless it's Savage + content.

2. It absolutely is a weakness given MNK literally will lose uptime on certain mechanics, if you aren't using your ranged attack at all when you cant be in melee range, you're not playing your job optimally and think you have more to worry about than losing Kaiten.

3. DRG weaving issue always existed, the fact you don't think it did, that they literally could not double weave and were pigeonholed into single weave because of their animation locks shows you never played DRG at an optimized level and are probably not in a position to give feedback on that. You know how many DRGs felt a huge sense of relief that they could finally double weave properly? I'm going to wager probably not.

"Because of people that played the job"

On this we agree, if a job has a low floor and performs incredibly well even at that low floor, who is going to play it?

Everyone.

Taking away Kaiten didn't change SAM into a different playstyle, they haven't undergone some full rework like SMN and MNK or a mini rework like AST ..

They are the same job with the same kit

They took one button away and spread the potency across your kit. It never ever was a big brain job, it just created a lot of false superiority because of it being a top dps.

And you know what? It's perfectly fine for a job to be pick up and play, easy to learn

Ya'll just need to stop conning yourselves into thinking SAM was ever anything else.

To further add. If you want the SAM to be more than it is, to have more depth, a higher ceiling and to be more rewarding for reaching it.

That I can fully get behind and support, SAM is afterall supposed to be the BLM of melee, so I'm 100% behind changes that increase the skill ceiling and potential of the job at maximum optimisation.

But acting like Kaiten was the straw? That singular button? Come on folks...that's hardly some amazing ceiling when you got NINs going at their rotation like a concert pianist.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

1. Given that I play several jobs that have cast times and are often expected to stand in melee range to do them, absolutely. It's not difficult and to believe it is shows you never played a Caster. The job gauge meter is a walk in the park and you're acting like SAM is the only job with two meters and cast times as melee. RPR says hi, as does MNK and DRG with their far more unforgiving meters if you happen to get caught out. BTW, in most content, if a Caster gets slapped by a PBaoE they typically die, you don't unless it's Savage + content.

2. It absolutely is a weakness given MNK literally will lose uptime on certain mechanics, if you aren't using your ranged attack at all when you cant be in melee range, you're not playing your job optimally and think you have more to worry about than losing Kaiten.

3. DRG weaving issue always existed, the fact you don't think it did, that they literally could not double weave and were pigeonholed into single weave because of their animation locks shows you never played DRG at an optimized level and are probably not in a position to give feedback on that. You know how many DRGs felt a huge sense of relief that they could finally double weave properly? I'm going to wager probably not.

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I know it's upsetting being wrong, but you don't need to keep doubling down on your bad takes.

1. Casters have more than 6 yalms (used to be melee) range on their casts. They also have tools that allow for instant casts when movement is needed. As with all of your examples, the actual downside to having melee casts is irrelevant in 95% of cases, but it does exist and is just as "challenging".

2. It's sub-optimal to be out of melee range for all melee jobs. MNK suffers the most because of the lack of a ranged attack, but how many GCDs do other melee jobs spend on their ranged attack?

3. Animation lock was only a problem on the jumps. DRG could double weave just fine on every other oGCD they have, which is the majority of them. You never had to double weave with a jump and lose GCD uptime.

No one has said SAM was some 5head gigabrain job before losing Kaiten. They're just upset that what little nuance was involved in kenki management is now gone. It's an objective fact that the job is less complex now, even if the difference is small and even if it wasn't very complex before.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

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This post pretty much summed up what I was typing in more detail, but at this point, it's obvious all that detail is just going to be lost on the person you replied to. Thank you :)

EDIT: Just wanted to add that any GCDs that monk is forced to not hit the boss can be used to generate chakra in order to use a Forbidden Chakra when they can hit the boss, and SSS made your GCD timer twice as long, which is one of the reasons a monk used it when they disengaged for an interval where they will miss more than one GCD. This means monk does not really lose a GCD since their GCD is still rolling.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

They just took away a bit of the flashiness with Kaiten and now you have had the curtain pulled back to reveal the reality of the job that many of us already knew, but chose to let ya'll live in that world because of SAM being the undisputed melee king for such a long time.

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What they took away was the need to manage resources, the choice on how to spend resources, and the importance of when to spend resources.

However shallow you think samurai was before, without Kaiten it's much, much worse. You're either completely uninformed or are intentionally downplaying it just to rile people - either way it's a bad look.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

To further add. If you want the SAM to be more than it is, to have more depth, a higher ceiling and to be more rewarding for reaching it.

That I can fully get behind and support, SAM is afterall supposed to be the BLM of melee, so I'm 100% behind changes that increase the skill ceiling and potential of the job at maximum optimisation.

But acting like Kaiten was the straw? That singular button? Come on folks...that's hardly some amazing ceiling when you got NINs going at their rotation like a concert pianist.

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Making Samurai more complicated to be on the same level as a BLM is another matter entirely. I actually - hm - don't care at all. But I liked the class when it had a special point, a flourish, and a feel. Its placement in someone else's list of Best Classes was not a factor. They removed a special move, that looked and felt GOOD. Now it feels flat.

I don't understand what's so difficult to grasp here. Take away the reaper's Evil Minion and evil eyes. Make the monk just stand there & punch. No flips, no kicks, no spins. Make the dragoon stand flat footed & poke at things.

The Samurai had a feel. It was methodical. It felt more like a well trained swordsman than the others. It didn't feel wild or madcap or brawny. It felt like it was aiming at something, which was reached in Kaiten. An ebb and flow. That is gone and it's just 'meh, whatever.'

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

To further add. If you want the SAM to be more than it is, to have more depth, a higher ceiling and to be more rewarding for reaching it.

That I can fully get behind and support, SAM is afterall supposed to be the BLM of melee, so I'm 100% behind changes that increase the skill ceiling and potential of the job at maximum optimisation.

But acting like Kaiten was the straw? That singular button? Come on folks...that's hardly some amazing ceiling when you got NINs going at their rotation like a concert pianist.

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But I literally just want kaiten and 6.08 back. I don't want them to change a bunch more crap to make the class busier. It was perfect how it was.

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Originally Posted by Karious

But I literally just want kaiten and 6.08 back. I don't want them to change a bunch more crap to make the class busier. It was perfect how it was.

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It really was! It was elegant. Special. I love other classes for other things, quirks about them. Those are the things that make it more than numbers on a spreadsheet. If people don't care - well, then one would wonder why they're here. But I care - the art of it means more than - whatever it means to people like that. Maybe this is just a difference in personality types - but games have to be more than numbers to me or they're not games. They're just math. And I hated every second of math. So maybe they just look at those who care about the feel like we're crazy. But there's an emotional component in game play - granted, for some people more than others (clearly). If you make all the classes the same, or make them dull, well... that connection fades. It just does. Healing could be improved, admittedly. I'd like say - 3 glares than turn into a bigger hit - ANYTHING. But I love healing - I love the act of it, the focus on others, the feel of helping. So that emotional component remains. But if you're dps, you go into battle a certain way. Headlong, sneaky, standing back and blasting - and the Samurai had a very distinct method. It was so CLEAN. But it wasn't flat.

But that's what annoys me, I guess, about the troll-seeming posts. I don't trot around saying they're dull and unimaginative to care about potencies (I mean, I may THINK it, but I wouldn't be bothered to go posting about it, or find my way to a forum about it...) I want my class to be good - to be viable. (nodding sadly to my poor machinist, sitting unused on an alt...)

But anyway - the Samurai was in such a good place. If they needed to reduce buttons, there were better ways. If they had to alter what Kaiten does, fine - do that. But don't remove it entirely, and leave the class just puttering along, blandly. That's just life in a gray, depressing zone.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

What they took away was the need to manage resources, the choice on how to spend resources, and the importance of when to spend resources.

However shallow you think samurai was before, without Kaiten it's much, much worse. You're either completely uninformed or are intentionally downplaying it just to rile people - either way it's a bad look.

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Nah I just think SAM think a little too much of themselves and it's why they're making a massive mountain out of a molehill.

MNK had an entire rework that changed entirely how they play

Did you hear MNKs threatening to quit?

Why no, no you did not and quite frankly, if threatening to quit to get your own way is how it's gonna be, maybe go because every time they do something you do not like

We will get a thread like this and that speaks volumes of the kinds of players the job attracts and quite frankly, community is better off without that.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Nah I just think SAM think a little too much of themselves and it's why they're making a massive mountain out of a molehill.

MNK had an entire rework that changed entirely how they play

Did you hear MNKs threatening to quit?

Why no, no you did not and quite frankly, if threatening to quit to get your own way is how it's gonna be, maybe go because every time they do something you do not like

We will get a thread like this and that speaks volumes of the kinds of players the job attracts and quite frankly, community is better off without that.

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You must be fun at parties. Now go tell the massive amount of Japanese DPS players complaining the same thing and see how far you get. (hint: not very far). Antagonizing people doesn't do a good job of getting your opinion across.

Fun that you get to decide what is good "the community".