Dark Knight moving forward: Job change ideas for 6.0

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

- Carve and Spit could have been 3 hits of 450 potency that restored MP per hit and had 300 cure potency per hit.
- charges being on Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain.

- Darkside re-work could have been a 30% damage up buff

- HP cannot drop below 1 for 20 seconds" on a 5 minute cooldown

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You're pulling some pretty wild numbers out of nowhere.

Just casually dropping a 900 potency boost per minute on C&S, giving it a 900 potency cure for no reason, giving it charges so I'm assuming you'd be firing it off twice per minute to boot? Oh and let's give DRK a +20% damage boost to everything it does all the time.

20 second invulnerability? LOL. On top of it then losing the healing requirement?

You don't like current DRK, I get it. The things you're suggesting "should" have been done however make absolutely no sense and it looks like to me that you're just slinging whatever mud you can find at DRK and then bringing in a wheelbarrow just so you can bring some more mud that isn't even there. I'm sorry but it's very hard to take these seriously. All of this is a bit like me saying "Bloodspiller could deal 2500 potency and Quietus should heal me to full and give me full MP".

DRK isn't behind in damage to the point that any of those things you're suggesting wouldn't just boost it through the roof. On top of giving it some pretty ungodly healing. On top of giving it the absolutely most broken invulnerability in the game. On top of it already being the king of personal mitigation.

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Athough Abyssal Drain should have been the AoE combo for Unleash, just need to re-work Unleash into a target AoE while also making Stalwart Soul into a Target AoE and making Stalwart Soul combo after Abyssal Drain and Dark Passenger could have stayed with charges and no MP cost.

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What is wrong with point blank AOEs? Or FOS/FOD for that matter?

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Because DRK lacks survivability

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With TBN even with physical enemies DRKs mitigation is really good. In dungeon trash you've also got Abyssal Drain which is up for every trashpull that tends to range from 1000+ to 2000+ potency heal on an OGCD trigger. In raids you've got magical damage which means you've got 2 extra mitigation cooldowns to work with. LD sucks and should be changed but hardly defines DRKs survivability. He's pretty damn sturdy outside of the flawed invulnerability.

EDIT: Changed some wording because it sounded a lot more oafish than I meant for it to. I'm being critical but not trying to be a D.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

You're pulling some pretty wild numbers out of nowhere.

Just casually dropping a 900 potency boost per minute on C&S, giving it a 900 potency cure for no reason, giving it charges so I'm assuming you'd be firing it off twice per minute to boot? Oh and let's give DRK a +20% damage boost to everything it does all the time.

20 second invulnerability? LOL. On top of it then losing the healing requirement?

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Living Dead is so bad that even if Carve and Spit got the base potency and base MP recovery and had 1200 cure potency equivalent slapped on to, it wouldn't do much to fix it. Though it would give DRK a better flavor of tank though.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

You don't like current DRK, I get it.

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HUGE understatement right there.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

The things you're suggesting "should" have been done however make absolutely no sense and it looks like to me that you're just slinging whatever mud you can find at DRK and then bringing in a wheelbarrow just so you can bring some more mud that isn't even there. I'm sorry but it's very hard to take these seriously. All of this is a bit like me saying "Bloodspiller could deal 2500 potency and Quietus should heal me to full and give me full MP".

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Not really wrong there, but there is a huge a difference between "could" is a very different would since I was speculating at what could have been, and to be fair might as well replace "could" with "should" since I HATE the current iteration of DRK that we have right now.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

DRK isn't behind in damage to the point that any of those things you're suggesting wouldn't just boost it through the roof. On top of giving it some pretty ungodly healing. On top of giving it the absolutely most broken invulnerability in the game. On top of it already being the king of personal mitigation.

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Pretty sure RDM Embolden(RDM just hates other casters and faux casters as well) and MNK Brotherhood say other wise on the damage part(though this JUST DRK, just remember that PLD, NIN and literally every caster cannot be in the same group as a MNK otherwise it's a DPS loss for MNK, it's just DRK is the more prominent one that comes to mind)... Just like how SCH, DRG, BRD want to point that WAR guaranteed DCH pretty much makes them feel useless for DPS checks as bring a WAR with them is a DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

What is wrong with point blank AOEs?

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If they are weaker than the other tanks PB AoEs than I will have issue with it. In fact, I'm all for giving DRK PB AoE combos(that don't suck in terms of potency).

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Originally Posted by Lammas

Or FOS/FOD for that matter?

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I just wish they were implemented a lot more smoothly(preferably as burst combos that you did to break up the monotony of spamming Souleater combo).

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Originally Posted by Lammas

With TBN even with physical enemies DRKs mitigation is really good. In dungeon trash you've also got Abyssal Drain which is up for every trashpull that tends to range from 1000+ to 2000+ potency heal on an OGCD trigger. In raids you've got magical damage which means you've got 2 extra mitigation cooldowns to work with. LD sucks and should be changed but hardly defines DRKs survivability. He's pretty damn sturdy outside of the flawed invulnerability.

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Except once you get TBN you basically either perma-shelved your other CDs unless a fight calls for it, or the fact that you spent the entire expansion doing things new players would normally do and make the healers heal you by not pressing cooldowns because you don't know the difference between Physical Damage and Magical Damage with Dark Mind.

Also quick fix for Dark Mind; bring back Dark Dance with 100% parry rate and have it upgrade into Dark Mind at the level you get Dark Mind.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

EDIT: Changed some wording because it sounded a lot more oafish than I meant for it to. I'm being critical but not trying to be a D.

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I don't know what you said before you edited you post as I was not awake at the time... so don't feel to bad about it...

My ideas comes with usage of Living shadow.

- Living shadow should follow us and copy all our skills dealing 100 potency damage, including oGCD (salted earth does only damage once)
- It should double the heal/MP/blood regeneration on each skill, including blood weapon
- Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds, duration 24 seconds
It should also interact with living death.
DRK will be allowed to use living death only when living shadow is ON, when DRK gets to 0 HP within 10 seconds living shadow disappears and DRK receives 100% HP heal.

On top of that bloodweapon duration is increased to 12 seconds

Thats all. :P

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

My ideas comes with usage of Living shadow.

- Living shadow should follow us and copy all our skills dealing 100 potency damage, including oGCD (salted earth does only damage once)
- It should double the heal/MP/blood regeneration on each skill, including blood weapon
- Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds, duration 24 seconds
It should also interact with living death.
DRK will be allowed to use living death only when living shadow is ON, when DRK gets to 0 HP within 10 seconds living shadow disappears and DRK receives 100% HP heal.

On top of that bloodweapon duration is increased to 12 seconds

Thats all. :P

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And people said my suggestions and speculations were overpowered...


But Living Dead is 2 effect in 1 ability and people would probably hate Living Dead consuming their "cool shadow summon for self heal to 100% because mah deeps" which is what a lot of blue DPS want really.


I'm just one of the few blue DPS that wants to DPS AND TANK at the same time, just not with current tank stance...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Living Dead is so bad that even if Carve and Spit got the base potency and base MP recovery and had 1200 cure potency equivalent slapped on to, it wouldn't do much to fix it. Though it would give DRK a better flavor of tank though.

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You're complaining about DRK survivability, pointing it rather directly to LD, proposing a wild change to C&S of all things and now you're saying it wouldn't even help fix the thing you have a problem with :D
Of course it wouldn't fix it because you're suggesting changes to something completely unrelated. To fix living dead, the thing that needs changing is living dead, not throwing some random wild self heals on a DPS skill.

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If they are weaker than the other tanks PB AoEs than I will have issue with it. In fact, I'm all for giving DRK PB AoE combos(that don't suck in terms of potency).

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So, I tried to math the AOEs a bit and didn't see a huge difference when trying to consider the full package of, say, DRK vs GNB. Then I went as far as to ask the math wizards of a FFXIV theory discord how the AOEs pan out vs each other. The answer? Kind of hard to really calculate. In an infinity they all kinda balance out. With no outside buffs considered GNB tends to end up ahead after 20-30 seconds. PLD catches up at about 40 seconds. DRK TBN and WAR self healing allow healers to AOE more which is something that also needs to be considered. WAR and DRK are able to burst a lot early on. And at the end of the day trashpacks shouldn't even live long enough for the damage difference to become noticable.

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Pretty sure RDM Embolden(RDM just hates other casters and faux casters as well) and MNK Brotherhood say other wise on the damage part(though this JUST DRK, just remember that PLD, NIN and literally every caster cannot be in the same group as a MNK otherwise it's a DPS loss for MNK, it's just DRK is the more prominent one that comes to mind)... Just like how SCH, DRG, BRD want to point that WAR guaranteed DCH pretty much makes them feel useless for DPS checks as bring a WAR with them is a DPS loss.

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RDM and MNK raid buff designs are weirdly exclusive but I thought we were talking about DRKs personal DPS here. As you said yourself, this isn't just a DRK problem. Would I want those changed? Sure, on MNKs and RDMs end.
Returning to the topic at hand however you said Darkside dmg buff could've been 30 % instead of 10 %. That C&S could do three times the damage if does. Are you aware how small the damage difference in a boss fight between DRK and GNB is? Let's look at actual data. I'm not very good at fflogs but assuming I'm looking at this correctly E2S and E4S the difference between the top damage DRK and GNB is less than 5 % for rdps, narrowed down even more for adps. For TEA it's a smigde over 5 % for rdps narrowed down to LESS THAN 1 % difference for adps. I don't think DRK needs to have it's constant 10 % damage buff tripled. I don't think it needs a 900 potency per minute boost with or without that.

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Except once you get TBN you basically either perma-shelved your other CDs unless a fight calls for it, or the fact that you spent the entire expansion doing things new players would normally do and make the healers heal you by not pressing cooldowns because you don't know the difference between Physical Damage and Magical Damage with Dark Mind.

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I'm not sure where you're shelving your cooldowns or why. The only place where I'd see that being a thing is vs a dungeon boss as they just don't hit very hard. The thing is however that every tank should reserve their longer CDs for the upcoming trashpacks, not just DRK.

I know it's an ideas thread where anyone can suggest whatever they like but I see you complaining about a lot of current things with very little factual base.
DRKs survivability isn't bad, it has really, really good personal mitigation.
DRKs damage isn't bad, it is lower but unless all tanks did exactly identical damage someone has to be and right now it is by a very narrow margin.
DRKs AOE isn't bad, arguments presented above.
Living dead sucks, everyone agrees with that.

I get that something you really used to like being changed to something you now hate sucks. I've been there too. I dunno why I bother even responding here but the biased mudslinging is just getting a little old and a little more objectivity would go a long way.

bonus:

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people would probably hate Living Dead consuming their "cool shadow summon for self heal to 100% because mah deeps" which is what a lot of blue DPS want really.

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I would indeed hate LD eating my Living shadow at the cost of "muh deeps" as it doesn't make any sense for the invulnerability to do that.
The original idea is also flawed because that would mean I'd have to hold my living shadow and make sure I'd have it up whenever I'm going to LD. It's a bit like suggesting PLD only able to invul during Requiescat and people would indeed hate that.
It would also make LD absolutely terrible for any situation where you need to take more than 1 lethal hit with the invulnerability and with a change like that you'd no longer be able to take 3 tethers from Titania or all 3 hits from E4S tank buster for example.

Living Dead -> [Undying Shadow]
Ability
Recast: [300-420]
Effect: Summons a Shadow Simulacrum, with HP equal to [100-150%] of your maximum HP. The Simulacrum takes hits instead of you for up to 10s or until its HP is depleted.

I haven't read the whole thread... But, I wanted to put out some (Poorly thought out) ideas:

- Delirium not being IR clone. Instead grants "Darkest Arts" for the duration, making Flood/Edge of Darkness/Shadow cost 0 mana for the duration. (Would be a significant DPS increase over simply Bloodspiller spam that the current design provides though)

- Bloodspiller and Quietus providing MP on use, baseline (Not part of Delirium)

- Blood Weapon, Delirium, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain, Carve and Spit, Plunge and Spooky Boi Living Shadow CD's affected by SkS. (I miss the affinity for SkS that DRK had for ages)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I haven't read the whole thread... But, I wanted to put out some (Poorly thought out) ideas:

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Okay.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

- Delirium not being IR clone. Instead grants "Darkest Arts" for the duration, making Flood/Edge of Darkness/Shadow cost 0 mana for the duration. (Would be a significant DPS increase over simply Bloodspiller spam that the current design provides though)

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Still an IR clone no matter how you slice it... though if was 0 MP and 0 Blood Gauge costs then would be a better IR clone since you get 5 GCDs and 5 min. oGCDs in(OG IR can only get 2 free oGCDs in for DPS) and would require the removal of Living Shadow for it to work, which at this point I would rather they remove Living Shadow(I'll get into why at the end of this post) which is probably why Living Shadow Exists because they didn't want DRK to have better IR window...

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Originally Posted by Kalise

- Bloodspiller and Quietus providing MP on use, baseline (Not part of Delirium)

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This one is not poorly thought out because it is a good QoL change that needs to happen... but you know Living Shadow exists...

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Originally Posted by Kalise

- Blood Weapon, Delirium, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain, Carve and Spit, Plunge and Spooky Boi Living Shadow CD's affected by SkS. (I miss the affinity for SkS that DRK had for ages)

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So long as Living Shadow exists, don't expect to get those changes...


And I finally figured out why I hate Living Shadow; it's basically like watching someone else play DRK better than you, which why I would I want a crappy companion/pet NPC have a cool rotation for my job/class abilities when I can just watch youtube videos of older and BETTER versions of DRK that I could be watching instead? Or what if I actually want to do the rotation that Living Shadow is doing without the Living Shadow?

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Originally Posted by Lammas

You're complaining about DRK survivability, pointing it rather directly to LD, proposing a wild change to C&S of all things and now you're saying it wouldn't even help fix the thing you have a problem with :D
Of course it wouldn't fix it because you're suggesting changes to something completely unrelated. To fix living dead, the thing that needs changing is living dead, not throwing some random wild self heals on a DPS skill.

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To be fair self heals on DPS skills would make DRK a hell of a lot cooler. And I am a huge sucker for REALLY COOL things. And for good measure to see if I can come up with an idea on how to fix Living Dead; Living Dead needs to go straight into Walking Dead on activation, can have a maximum number of 5 stacks of Walking Dead, if you have more than 1 stack of Walking Dead you need to be healed by 25% of max HP to reduce number of stacks before it kills you, however it cannot go below 1 stack of Living Dead, and 1 stack means you don't need healing at all until it's about to wear off and if tank swap happens you don't die when it wears off, just need to wait for the healer(s) to heal you.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

So, I tried to math the AOEs a bit and didn't see a huge difference when trying to consider the full package of, say, DRK vs GNB. Then I went as far as to ask the math wizards of a FFXIV theory discord how the AOEs pan out vs each other. The answer? Kind of hard to really calculate. In an infinity they all kinda balance out. With no outside buffs considered GNB tends to end up ahead after 20-30 seconds. PLD catches up at about 40 seconds. DRK TBN and WAR self healing allow healers to AOE more which is something that also needs to be considered. WAR and DRK are able to burst a lot early on. And at the end of the day trashpacks shouldn't even live long enough for the damage difference to become noticable.

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I was talking no inbetween oGCDs at all as those kinda inflate the numbers a bit too much... Just raw GCDs...

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Originally Posted by Lammas

RDM and MNK raid buff designs are weirdly exclusive but I thought we were talking about DRKs personal DPS here. As you said yourself, this isn't just a DRK problem. Would I want those changed? Sure, on MNKs and RDMs end.
Returning to the topic at hand however you said Darkside dmg buff could've been 30 % instead of 10 %. That C&S could do three times the damage if does. Are you aware how small the damage difference in a boss fight between DRK and GNB is? Let's look at actual data. I'm not very good at fflogs but assuming I'm looking at this correctly E2S and E4S the difference between the top damage DRK and GNB is less than 5 % for rdps, narrowed down even more for adps. For TEA it's a smigde over 5 % for rdps narrowed down to LESS THAN 1 % difference for adps. I don't think DRK needs to have it's constant 10 % damage buff tripled. I don't think it needs a 900 potency per minute boost with or without that.

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The devs want everything to be viable, I'm just pointing that everything being viable isn't always the case for speedkills, which a lot of people want more speedkills, which isn't wrong to do, it's just even I have to be in the mood for speedkills, and PF is always about speedkills, so luckily I always play something for the few people in the party that join in PF that want speedkills, that doesn't interfere with MNK and/or RDM raidbuffs.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I'm not sure where you're shelving your cooldowns or why. The only place where I'd see that being a thing is vs a dungeon boss as they just don't hit very hard. The thing is however that every tank should reserve their longer CDs for the upcoming trashpacks, not just DRK.

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I just look at Edge of Darkness and Flood of Darkness, then Dark Mind, then TBN, and then look at the other tanks and say to myself "The devs have either accidentally or purposefully created a tank job/class that promotes THE WORST POSSIBLE player etiquette."

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I know it's an ideas thread where anyone can suggest whatever they like but I see you complaining about a lot of current things with very little factual base.

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Does this really surprise you that people are complaining on the forums...?

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Originally Posted by Lammas

DRKs survivability isn't bad, it has really, really good personal mitigation.

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I covered these thoughts like 2 quotes ago.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

DRKs damage isn't bad, it is lower but unless all tanks did exactly identical damage someone has to be and right now it is by a very narrow margin.

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Living Shadow exists holding DRK from actually doing better A LOT better.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

DRKs AOE isn't bad, arguments presented above.

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Covered these thoughs like 6 quotes ago

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Originally Posted by Lammas

Living dead sucks, everyone agrees with that.

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Actually covered this at the beginning of this post.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I get that something you really used to like being changed to something you now hate sucks. I've been there too. I dunno why I bother even responding here but the biased mudslinging is just getting a little old and a little more objectivity would go a long way.

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I honestly don't know either... probably because you want me to calm down and give better, rationally thought out explanations as to why...? Just guessing at this point...

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I would indeed hate LD eating my Living shadow at the cost of "muh deeps" as it doesn't make any sense for the invulnerability to do that.
The original idea is also flawed because that would mean I'd have to hold my living shadow and make sure I'd have it up whenever I'm going to LD. It's a bit like suggesting PLD only able to invul during Requiescat and people would indeed hate that.
It would also make LD absolutely terrible for any situation where you need to take more than 1 lethal hit with the invulnerability and with a change like that you'd no longer be able to take 3 tethers from Titania or all 3 hits from E4S tank buster for example.

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Or have to Holmgang during IR window to actually get the Invuln part...


Also some advice on quoting on the forums(you don't have to do it if you want to); copy+paste the quote code thing([QUOTE=Lammas;5313488] as an example) to make the responding to quotes a lot more cleaner.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Still an IR clone no matter how you slice it...

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Not really.

Unless any 10s CD DPS skill is now an IR clone. Blood Weapon is IR clone! :rolleyes:

One of the points about IR, is that you just spam 1 button for the duration of it. With a minor caveat of your one single oGCD attack (Upheaval) and maybe a couple of gapclosers.

Causing DRK's oGCD attacks to become free instead of GCD attacks, will mean you'll still be using your normal combo and Blood skills. If anything, it would create a temporary feeling of StB's Dark Arts (The whole DA > GCD > DA > GCD > DA > GCD meme).

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So long as Living Shadow exists, don't expect to get those changes...

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Not sure why LS would prevent a change to make SkS not garbage compared to Crit + DH? Heck, it wouldn't even make SkS not garbage, given that it would mess with the "Skillful Co-ordination" that is aligning 60/90/120s CD's with party members 60/90/120s CD party DPS buffs.

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And I finally figured out why I hate Living Shadow

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Personally, I hate it because the level 50 quest pointed out that my darkside is a shadow reflection of myself (Sort of how Dark Link is a shadow version of Link). Since it was a fight with Fray and then he was all like "But wait, I'm actually your darkside!" and then becomes a shadow verson of yourself that you have to fight.

But then the 70 quest comes along and now apparently Fray is my darkside?