Paladin nerf INC

I think that a slight amount of imbalance was deliberate, purely for the sake of getting people to come back and check out the job in the short term prior to making further adjustments. That being said, I suspect that the unanticipated use of i270 STR accessories really amplified the difference. I wonder how different things are from the dev predictions when they were originally tuning this content?

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

Btw Paladin's still parse lower than warrs when solo on dummies. But Warr + PLD means the PLD gets slashing debuff on target, so that's why it's more even in actual comps.

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Since NIN and SAM both also give this buff we can pretty much assume PLD will always have it even with no WAR. Likewise, in an actual fight, PLD can more reliably pull off high DPS numbers while WAR can be fucked by one poorly timed transition.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Even if that's the case, extra mitigation still means nothing when the other tanks can still survive the content. Damage is always more desired and always will be until SE does an overhaul which they never will. If you take a large hit and are left with 10k hp instead of 6k it doesn't make a difference, you survived the tank buster you can keep on hitting stuff.

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From my experience sometime I survive the tank buster but die after two auto attack....Even when I played war for a while I still prefer to have half hp after every buster.....

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

From my experience sometime I survive the tank buster but die after two auto attack....Even when I played war for a while I still prefer to have half hp after every buster.....

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If auto attacks kill you than your healers aren't fast enough. you should be healed before the 'second' auto attack.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Even if that's the case, extra mitigation still means nothing when the other tanks can still survive the content. Damage is always more desired and always will be until SE does an overhaul which they never will. If you take a large hit and are left with 10k hp instead of 6k it doesn't make a difference, you survived the tank buster you can keep on hitting stuff.

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Then frankly if the hardcore are going to bench PLD because of stuff like that, let them bench PLD. Or design fights that having a PLD is useful in. The only way to avoid some classes being better is pure homogeonisation. As in, all perfectly the same, just with different animations. I don't think we want that either. I think each tank should have its own identity even if it means the hardcore bench a certain job again and again. For the less hardcore, they don't care so much.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Then frankly if the hardcore are going to bench PLD because of stuff like that, let them bench PLD. Or design fights that having a PLD is useful in. The only way to avoid some classes being better is pure homogeonisation. As in, all perfectly the same, just with different animations. I don't think we want that either. I think each tank should have its own identity even if it means the hardcore bench a certain job again and again. For the less hardcore, they don't care so much.

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I dunno why people think like this. Either create dumb imbalance or homogenize? Bench Pld? No thx. There are plenty of ways to keep damage and mitigation relatively similar for the tanks but make them play differently. I'll give you a very small tip of the ice berg example. One tank can have high personal "selfish" dps while another tank can buff the damage of the group and increase damage indirectly. Ultimately they are both contributing the same dps to the encounter. Hey look at that, simple example of how you can have balance without homogenization!

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I dunno why people think like this. Either create dumb imbalance or homogenize? Bench Pld? No thx. There are plenty of ways to keep damage and mitigation relatively similar for the tanks but make them play differently. I'll give you a very small tip of the ice berg example. One tank can have high personal "selfish" dps while another tank can buff the damage of the group and increase damage indirectly. Ultimately they are both contributing the same dps to the encounter. Hey look at that, simple example of how you can have balance without homogenization!

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There's 3 tanks. We have covered 2 examples. So maybe DRK can buff party members damage and WAR be the selfish damage dealer. But what about Paladin? One would still be favoured. Call it dumb all you want, but you haven't addressed how to make each of the 3 tanks differently while avoiding homogeonisation. You've only addressed 2 of the tanks.

Simply put, unless you make them all the exact same there will always be one matchup that edges out and the hardcore will swing to it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that a slight amount of imbalance was deliberate, purely for the sake of getting people to come back and check out the job in the short term prior to making further adjustments. That being said, I suspect that the unanticipated use of i270 STR accessories really amplified the difference. I wonder how different things are from the dev predictions when they were originally tuning this content?

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This was the excuse we allotted them with Astro; "they just want to convince people to play it." Lo and behold, Astro remains broken and they refuse to nerf Balance. So no, I don't believe for a second this was deliberate. The devs just don't balance tanks and healers very well.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

There's 3 tanks. We have covered 2 examples. So maybe DRK can buff party members damage and WAR be the selfish damage dealer. But what about Paladin? One would still be favoured. Call it dumb all you want, but you haven't addressed how to make each of the 3 tanks differently while avoiding homogeonisation. You've only addressed 2 of the tanks.

Simply put, unless you make them all the exact same there will always be one matchup that edges out and the hardcore will swing to it.

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You realty can't see any other examples? Okay here is another one for you. How about two of them are selfish dps tanks (we already established one is going to buff the party with indirect dps) uses predominantly spells requiring cast time while the other one does not. Kind of like the difference between a Black Mage and a Samurai both being dps. Now you aren't trying to say a BLM and SAM have homogenized game play do you? Like the possibilities are endless. Look at the dps classes for insight. One class has to balance a "heat gauge like mechanic", or another class has two balance two different resources at once (like RDM) and so forth. If you are saying these ideas are homogenization then you are basically saying our current dps classes are homogenized. In that case lets get rid of all the current dps classes cause clearly they are all identical!

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

You realty can't see any other examples? Okay here is another one for you. How about two of them are selfish dps tanks (we already established one is going to buff the party with indirect dps) uses predominantly spells requiring cast time while the other one does not. Kind of like the difference between a Black Mage and a Samurai both being dps. Now you aren't trying to say a BLM and SAM have homogenized game play do you? Like the possibilities are endless. Look at the dps classes for insight. One class has to balance a "heat gauge like mechanic", or another class has two balance two different resources at once (like RDM) and so forth. If you are saying these ideas are homogenization then you are basically saying our current dps classes are homogenized. In that case lets get rid of all the current dps classes cause clearly they are all identical!

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Ok, so that's one way it could work. However, another thing worth considering is that let's say we have one tank that is a mitigation machine, compared to the other two. He requires considerably less healing as a result, and therefore that gives the healers more time to push out DPS themselves. Let's say for example that while the other 2 can survive, they give the healer a LOT less time to DPS (to the point of almost zilch). The hardcore will still swing one way of the other but it won't be so clear cut. Some groups may prefer tankier tanks and then allowing the healer to do more DPS. Some groups may prefer the tank to be the more aggressive DPS number pushing. And no, the idea you put forward isn't homogeonisation, however at the same time, it becomes about buffing the party with damage up buffs, whereas the example I listed could be considerably higher mitigation at the cost of their own personal DPS allowing the healers to push their DPS higher compared to the other 2 tanks.

Let's use your original idea then, and extrapolate it with my idea. Paladin could be the mitigation machine allowing healers to DPS more, DRK could buff the party with damage up buffs, WAR could be the selfish DPS machine. While 2 will edge out, dependent on how they are done, any 2 of the 3 could edge out. Same result of extra DPS being pushed out, but 3 very different approaches to it. I don't think people take into account how better mitigation can mean unseen buffs for healer damage.

Note, I'm not trying to say your idea is bad, as it isn't, just suggesting a way in which mitigation could work to increase DPS. I can also agree that in some of my previous posts I came across as overly hostile and for that I apologise. Like I say, I just believe that a mitigation tank CAN work, if done right.