Hardcore is not a dirty word

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

1/1 on Monster Signa. Then I killed him again years later a couple times when he was no longer camped and got it again on the 4th or 5th kill. The thing about algorithms is that they are unchanging. You can flip a coin and a have a 50% chance of it coming up heads or tails, but when it lands on tails you don't have a better chance of it being heads on the next flip, the percentage remains the same. I'm sorry for your luck.

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to be perfectly honest that was hyperbole for the sake of argument, I think I may have camped him say 8 times and only killed him say 4 from 2001-2005 and never got the signa, usually he spawned claimed thanks to RMT bots. However, the signa was on a I think 1% drop rate, you're one lucky dude

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

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Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore game in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

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And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

your point didn't go over my head...it went over yours.

I used your criteria...you know the ones you posted up thread, the ones you said made a hard core game. the problem is you criteria is so vague and can be applied to anything that you basically said yourself that every game is hard core if it meets the most arbitrary of criteria, Hell you even agreed that WoW was a hard core game.

I'm done with this, you don't even know what you're saying anymore.

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Since your just embarrassing yourself more and more ill just throw this out for you so you can drop your frivalus argument that has lead you no where.

SE developers, more specifically FFXIV developers, along with Yoshi, and along with Wada stated they were making a casual game. so lets use your basic logic on this one since higher thinking eludes you so, if there is a casual game there is a.... wait for it.... HARDCORE wow that was so hard! Just like if someone states there is good there must be.... you got it now? that's right evil!

And if next you counter argue that same line you all ready used "just because they said it dose not mean its true" argument ill leave you with 3 words Sir Isaac Newton.

And last but not least again if you read my post above that criteria i gave i state was just PARTS of what hardcore entails. Again ill say it there are varying degrees of hardcore and you know what FF11 fit the bill, and so does WoW's end game content. As to which of the above mention is more hardcore is left for another discussion. So please there's the door you can leave now.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Since your just embarrassing yourself more and more ill just throw this out for you so you can drop your frivalus argument that has lead you no where.

SE developers, more specifically FFXIV developers, along with Yoshi, and along with Wada stated they were making a casual game. so lets use your basic logic on this one since higher thinking eludes you so, if there is a casual game there is a.... wait for it.... HARDCORE wow that was so hard! Just like if someone states there is good there must be.... you got it now? that's right evil!

And if next you counter argue that same line you all ready used "just because they said it dose not mean its true" argument ill leave you with 3 words Sir Isaac Newton.

And last but not least again if you read my post above that criteria i gave i state was just PARTS of what hardcore entails. Again ill say it there are varying degrees of hardcore and you know what FF11 fit the bill, and so does WoW's end game content. As to which of the above mention is more hardcore that left for another discussion. So please there's the door you can leave now.

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okay you're just arguing yourself in circles and making no head way, But what the hell does Sir Issac Newton have to do with anything...this I have to hear.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

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Different strokes, different folks. Most equate hardcore as accomplishing something within the game as far as progression, not dancing naked. However you could in theory say you danced hardcore. Just not that you are a hardcore dancer. This is acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

okay you're just arguing yourself in circles and making no head way, But what the hell does Sir Issac Newton have to do with anything...this I have to hear.

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You really are in a corner lol

you counter argued earlier saying that popular belief has nothing to do with validity no matter who its coming from.

Sir Issac Newton was a mathematician as id hope you know and Newton's work has been said "to distinctly advance every branch of mathematics studied" but just because he said the stuff, with your line of thinking he too would be false because screw popular belief i want to just pontificate and say Why? all day long, who cares about established meanings.

FFXIV developers are accredited in my book if they say Hardcore and Casual games exist far be it for me to say otherwise with no proof.

That line you fixated on was to counter a possible argument i thought you might bring up.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Different strokes, different folks. Most equate hardcore as accomplishing something within the game as far as progression, not dancing naked. However you could in theory say you danced hardcore. Just not that you are a hardcore dancer. This is acceptable.

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and that would be my point all along. Hard core is a state of mind, not a tangible, empirical thing!

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Originally Posted by Bled

You really are in a corner lol

you counter argued earlier saying that popular belief has nothing to do with validity no matter who its coming from.

Sir Issac Newton was a mathematician as id hope you know and Newton's work has been said "to distinctly advance every branch of mathematics studied" but just because he said the stuff, with your line of thinking he too would be false because screw popular belief i want to just pontificate and say Why? all day long, who cares about established meanings.

FFXIV developers are accredited in my book if they say Hardcore and Casual games exist far be it for me to say otherwise with no proof.

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There is a considerable difference between Newton's advancement of mathematics, and Appeals to popular authority.

you see Newton, Father of Calculus, has empirical scientific data to back his "advancement of mathematics" you can test his theories

Saying something is true because lots of people "believe it" is not empirical data and is there for not evidence

do you even know what Debate and the scientific method are?

SCIENCED!!!

Just thought I'd throw this in, it's an interesting read, though slightly flawed.

Casual Vs. Hardcore Games

According to this because we're only playing one game for a prolonged period of time we're a 'casual gamer', where as if buy lots of games all the time we're 'hardcore gamers'. dunno how that works XD

Either way give it a read, may help lighten the mood a tad maybe.