Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

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Originally Posted by Lauront

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Actually, I don't think they'll take our feedback on male viera's physical appearance at all.
I mean, they'll probably consider feedback about adding male viera to the game, but not how they look. You know what, though? I'm ok with this. I trust they will do a good job, if they ever add them.

I expect they won't disregard it entirely, either, but yeah it's probably not going to be a case of just gauging what is most popular, as opposed to what they think is the best fit. We're mostly just discussing our own hopes and dreams for Viera.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Actually, I don't think they'll take our feedback on male viera's physical appearance at all.

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I agree that they have a base in mind. Everything we heard so far from both Yoshida and Matsuno (dat Highlander screenshot...) isn't too far from the Concept Art.
But our feedback could contribute to certain aspects of that base, like which gender is taller (with average height difference, not an Au Ra height gap), how much to pump the muscle slider, maybe hairstyles, etc.

Again, the issue is when the arguments completely detract from what you should be aiming for, which is male viera being added in regardless, and you have people saying whoever is posting x is trying to co-opt what viera should be. It's just stupid and non-constructive when I highly highly doubt there's any real leeway to consider fanart at all for it's design when they already have concept art to work with. There's no reason why someone should post x viera and be told "No that can't exist at all and if it did I wouldn't want it" or "They should be smaller than the females, they have to be or it would just kill male viera for me."

It's just irksome, and sort of goes to prove the point that no matter what the devs would try to do there would be some sort of irrational backlash from people who want wildly different things. I'll stop going on about this though since it doesn't seem like it's actually helping.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I agree that they have a base in mind. Everything we heard so far from both Yoshida and Matsuno (dat Highlander screenshot...) isn't too far from the Concept Art.
But our feedback could contribute to certain aspects of that base, like which gender is taller (with average height difference, not an Au Ra height gap), how much to pump the muscle slider, maybe hairstyles, etc.

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No, I don't think so. Like what was just said, SE will probably do what they think fits best. Player feedback on design choice is most likely insignificant.
It's not a design choice, but take a look at dancer. SE implemented dancer into the game because it was popular, but they didn't make it a healer even though that seemed to be a popular request.

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Originally Posted by Senn

SE will probably do what they think fits best. Player feedback on design choice is most likely insignificant.

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I mean, the two are not mutually exclusive.

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SE implemented dancer into the game because it was popular, but they didn't make it a healer even though that seemed to be a popular request.

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While I think they had plenty of time during SB to address healer balance so they could've added a new healer in ShB, that's still a pretty good reason for that. A debate can be had about whether or not they should've waited on DNC until a new healer could've been brought in and gave us a different dps job now, but that's really neither here nor there in this context. DNC being ranged dps is more than just "we can't please everyone so let's just make a decision". If they're already going to bring in female Hroths and male Viera, there's really no reason not to listen to "please make male and female Viera same height/make males a bit shorter" - unless, of course, they decide that the alternative would be more popular or more in line with their vision, but in that case there's really no harm in voicing that request. You know what makes SE absolutely not listen to feedback or requests? Those things not being voiced.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

wishful thinking it will be anytime in ShB life
maybe next expansion or maybe even after

be a bit odd that a gender is locked by a expansion now i think about it

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I doubt that they would lock male Viera and female Hrothgar behind any expansion, if they do add them. They will likely be added to the Shadowbringers license, so if anyone has at least Shadowbringers, they'll have access to both genders.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

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Yeah, no harm in voicing your requests.
However, I think SE/the devs/Yoshi P will go for something that fits with their vision instead instead of player request, and that's probably a good thing because we're so divided.
In the end, I think it should be left up to the developers.

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Originally Posted by Senn

No, I don't think so. Like what was just said, SE will probably do what they think fits best. Player feedback on design choice is most likely insignificant.
It's not a design choice, but take a look at dancer. SE implemented dancer into the game because it was popular, but they didn't make it a healer even though that seemed to be a popular request.

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The initial response Yoshi gave indicated they weren't sure how to go about them. However, in reality I do think it's less that and more to do with being tactical about how to get senior management buy-in for two races, with the possible intention of adding the missing gender option later.

So, I am of the view that they're not really working from a total blank slate but will probably take player feedback into account, to an extent. We have to remember the forum is still a minority, so although this is signalling demand for the male version of the race that they can't ignore (still no guarantee they'll add it but I believe they're now considering it more seriously), in terms of what would sell to the broader community they can't just limit their sights to the forum, and besides this, in working so close with Matsuno I am pretty sure the discussion about how he (and the wider Ivalice team) imagines male Viera would look has come up and has guided their own decisions.

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Originally Posted by Senn

that's probably a good thing because we're so divided.

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To be fair, I think part of it is rampaging expectations and illogical hopes. Asking for male Viera who are basically Feol is strikingly against what we know they imagine, be it Matsuno, Yoshida, or even the Concept Art. Unlike DNC being healer, some of the requests we've seen here are pretty detached from what we got from the devs so far. I mean, we did get a Concept Art, which is still something. DNC meanwhile they've kept quiet about.

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In the end, I think it should be left up to the developers.

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This statement makes me very conflicted. I mean, on one hand, that's going to be the case no matter what happens unless someone here has the cash to buy SE and directly dictate their vision to Yoshida.
On the other hand, if it was left up to the developers, we wouldn't have male Viera in this game even in 20 years.

Yup, and some simple design decisions, like a wider height slider, may not even occur to them. Not to say that they're not a brilliant and creative team, but sometimes obvious solutions elude even such people until the spark of inspiration arises in some unexpected corner. The entire purpose of forum feedback is precisely to assist in correcting these blindspots, be it in gameplay design or other areas.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

This statement makes me very conflicted. I mean, on one hand, that's going to be the case no matter what happens unless someone here has the cash to buy SE and directly dictate their vision to Yoshida.
On the other hand, if it was left up to the developers, we wouldn't have male Viera in this game even in 20 years.

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I meant the design should be left up to the developers.
We should all show our support to get male viera included in the game, of course.

There's two things to consider here.

1) The design will ultimately be left up to them, whether we like it or not. That's a given. Especially in cases of world-building, I think devs should have the final say. This does not mean I will refrain from offering an opinion, particularly if I feel it's a bad decision, but in the end it is their game, they are paid to design it and I think in the FFXIV team's case, it is a product of their love for the setting they have created, and one which they mostly do a very stellar job in expanding.

However, 2) as we saw with Eureka, they do rely on feedback for fine-tuning and also for new ideas. Vigorous debate on here is a good thing because it shows them people care about the topic and also acts as an incubator for arguments/ideas they may have in the back of their minds, allowing them to readily see the pros and cons of these. This is probably a bit more relevant to gameplay mechanic discussions, but certainly could also factor into decisions such as how wide to make the height slider. And then there's those sparks of inspiration I mentioned. It also helps them figure out dead ends and potential sprouts to nurture.

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Originally Posted by Senn

In the end, I think it should be left up to the developers.

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I'm with Senn on this, not because I think they should ignore our feedback, but because we are talking about viera, I would love to see and play something made by the original designers of the race, not a feedback-altered design.

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Originally Posted by Renik

I'm with Senn on this, not because I think they should ignore our feedback, but because we are talking about viera, I would love to see and play something made by the original designers of the race, not a feedback-altered design.

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Agreed. Like I said before, feel free to post your opinions in this thread. It's fine. Keeps conversation going. Even I've shared my preferences.
But when it comes down to it, I want the devs to do their own thing. If they implement viera, I trust their judgement. They already did a great job with female viera.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Agreed. Like I said before, feel free to post your opinions in this thread. It's fine. Keeps conversation going. Even I've shared my preferences.
But when it comes down to it, I want the devs to do their own thing. If they implement viera, I trust their judgement. They already did a great job with female viera.

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To this I fully agree.

This was top rate thread for two weeks running.

Presumably Yoshi-P will be briefed a second time on Monday. There are still articles being generated about it, so I don't think their strategy of hoping it dies down will work.

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Originally Posted by niteypants

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Top rate? Is there a weekly top rated thread or something?

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Originally Posted by Senn

Top rate? Is there a weekly top rated thread or something?

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I am genuinely interested about this information as well.

Don't underestimate their ability to ignore people and hide from problems.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

I am genuinely interested about this information as well.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Top rate? Is there a weekly top rated thread or something?

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when your at the [forum top] page if you scroll to the very bottom you see [popular threads]
i think that's what they mean

So I'm genuinely into numbers at the moment.

Facts:
This thread has the support of a unique individuals* : 1577.
The current active population*** : 583 966.
Thread started : 3-22-2019
This thread has gained the highest amount of likes in all of General Discussion and within the shortest amount of time ever and is now considered one of the top 20 threads in General Discussion.


Sample size calculation:
Margin of Error : 5%
Confidence Level : 95% / Z Score : 1.96
Population Size : 583 966
Deviation : .5
This means that a sample size of only 384 is needed in order to prove demand which has been met within the forums and therefore extends to the greater FFXIV population as a whole. If we wanted to take into consideration of only the forum population (which we will for the time being say the forum consists of only .5%- 1% of the active playerbase, the sample size is considered to be ~330-360).

Poll :
Total Polled : 4763**
Generally against genderlock : 57.62%
Against genderlocked Viera : 54.20 %
Against genderlocked Hrothgar : 56.07%
I am not sure if this poll has been filtered to account for unique submission. Therefore, poll cannot be accounted for unique submissions, but can in someways help see from within and outside of the forums that if a random group of people are polled, there exists demand to unlock the genders. Take into consideration a hefty margin of error of +/- ~7% in all categories ranging from in favor to strongly opposed to account for duplicates from any category.


Someone before mentioned sample size and it's been lingering in my head for some time and thus impelled me to this.
I am not a maths person. Therefore, if a maths person does find a need to correct me please do by all means and with haste !

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* unique individuals means that there can only be 1 like per 1 individual person, cannot be multiple likes from 1 individual.

** the values are fact at this current post's time.

*** active population signifies per the census website 'characters that have claimed the "dress-up raubahn" mount from the 4.1 story - hence we can assume that the real active population is somewhat less than 583 000 as this is not a unique number (an individual can have alts who have obtained this)

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

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I really wanted to post something like this especially when people were mocking that our poll and like ratio doesn't even represent a percent of active players. That is not how polling works and what you did is correct. Polls are reflective of the greater population and a margin of error of 7% not be ideal, but even at its extreme, majority of players support male viera and female hrothgar.

Good job.

I actually didn't understand most of that. Margin of error, confidence level, deviation, etc... Would be nice if someone were to explain in layman's terms.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I actually didn't understand most of that. Margin of error, confidence level, deviation, etc... Would be nice if someone were to explain in layman's terms.

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Margin of error means the error percentage of the results of our poll. In this instance 57% of our poll support no gender lock. That means the real population could be as low 50% support no gender lock to 64%. I'm not sure on confidence level but I know it is linked to margin of error so it might be the probability that the true percentage should be between 50% and 64%. Someone please correct if I an wrong. I believe deviation is what you use to determine the margine of error so in this care how much of the population is represented in the poll.

Not an expert, but i hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I actually didn't understand most of that. Margin of error, confidence level, deviation, etc... Would be nice if someone were to explain in layman's terms.

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Margin of error: there is a ~7% margin above and below what is said that the actual numbers could fall in. While a smaller number means it is more accurate, for example elections in the US usually account for a 2% margin of error when it comes to statistically who will pull ahead in any given election, which would be considered more accurate than our 7% as it’s a smaller range for the poll. The top statistics based on active playerbase would also be more accurate with a 5% margin of error.

Confidence level is simply how confident, based on the statistics, they are of the prediction. So with a 95% confidence level they can say that given the data they are 95% confident that the numbers stated (1500+ likes with only a 380~ sample size needed) is accurate.

The deviation is a difference in two of the statistics (I’m too tired to say which ones and I don’t want to provide inaccurate information to the best of my ability)

So essentially it’s saying that these are the stats that they’re extremely confident in and has X% difference in what they said and what it could ACTUALLY be.

Please feel free to correct me on anything I may have said incorrectly @Virus

Thanks for the explanations. So I'm asking because I'm a bit confused but, since people can't dislike posts, how would 1577 likes be an accurate sample size?
Even though I linked the poll in my first post, I'm not counting that since people could take the survey multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Thanks for the explanations. So I'm asking because I'm a bit confused but, since people can't dislike posts, how would 1577 likes be an accurate sample size?
Even though I linked the poll in my first post, I'm not counting that since people could take the survey multiple times.

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Forum posters are only a very small fraction of the community, which the active playerbase is somewhere over 580,000 potentially, maybe even smaller as that figure includes potential alt characters. When taking a sample you don’t need a LARGE percentage of the potential respondents, generally a few hundred-a thousand is sampled in most major statistics depending on what they’re testing. Obviously a larger response pool would be more accurate but that’s not feasible with a population this size in most cases. So they used the data that is available and able to be worked with to determine a sample size that would be large enough to show demand , in this case 384 likes would do so. Think of it this way, in any poll you read about, the average sample size is anywhere from 500-1000 and that’s usually accounting for TENS of MILLIONS of people, far more than the community. Statistics allow you to take a smaller sample size and compare it to a larger pool and that’s where the margin of error, deviation and confidence level come into play to say that while it can’t be 100% accurate with this size this is what it’s believed to be with X confidence and could be + or - X%.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Thanks for the explanations. So I'm asking because I'm a bit confused but, since people can't dislike posts, how would 1577 likes be an accurate sample size?
Even though I linked the poll in my first post, I'm not counting that since people could take the survey multiple times.

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When I was calculating the margin of error for myself I used a poll from a much earlier forum thread. It actually gave me a lower margin of error so I'm not sure that is what they are using, but suspect that they are. I'm on phone and can't be near a computer for a few hours, but if you want the poll then later I can link you it.

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Originally Posted by Cerat

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When you're talking about sample sizes, aren't those normally done by picking people at random, and not people who all agree on something? The 1577 likes don't take into account the people who don't want male viera. This isn't a random sample size, so would using this still be accurate?
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or anything, I just want to understand.

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

When I was calculating the margin of error for myself I used a poll from a much earlier forum thread. It actually gave me a lower margin of error so I'm not sure that is what they are using, but suspect that they are. I'm on phone and can't be near a computer for a few hours, but if you want the poll then later I can link you it.

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Is the poll you are referring to the one I linked to in the OP? If not, go ahead and link it.

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Originally Posted by Senn

When you're talking about sample sizes, aren't those normally done by picking people at random, and not people who all agree on something? The 1577 likes don't take into account the people who don't want male viera. This isn't a random sample size, so would using this still be accurate?
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or anything, I just want to understand.

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It is picking at random since you are not controlling who is liking the thread OP. In this case Virus figured the number of individuals that would need to like (aka show support) to show that there is an overall demand since you cannot tell if the non-likers are in agreement or disagreement or ambivalent. That’s why the number is only 384 needing to like in order to show demand instead of simply saying the 1577 itself shows demand. Essentially on the OP there only needed to be 384 likes, with a + or - 5% margin of error, in order to statistically show there is a demand within the overall community. 1577 like have been given, almost 5x’s the needed number.

That all being said, if I’m mistaking anything with this, and I am only human, Virus or anyone else better versed in statistics can feel free to correct me. :) this is my explanation for the data provided and I’m fairly sure that’s how it was intended based on my own knowledge on how to read it ^_^

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Originally Posted by Cerat

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Gotcha, thanks for explaining.

I'm all for more gender/races to see in-game. I'm curious on when Yoshida or anyone similar are planning to make an official statement on the feedback for the new races, as they mentioned they were going to do this after the recent MrHappy and Reddit post-fanfest interviews. I figure they're waiting until the benchmark releases post-the 24th to see how players receive the current customization that exists? We know they're listening, but I'd personally like their opinions on the feedback they're receiving sooner, as the JP community wasn't happy either.

It's a matter of patience. They have a lot on their plate already and even if they do decide to add the missing genders it isn't likely to be anytime soon. The priority right now is Shadowbringers. Once the expansion launches, they'll likely have a bit more breathing room.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's a matter of patience. They have a lot on their plate already and even if they do decide to add the missing genders it isn't likely to be anytime soon. The priority right now is Shadowbringers. Once the expansion launches, they'll likely have a bit more breathing room.

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I'm 100% okay with waiting for the missing genders, whether this means until 5.1 or 6.0, provided they actually communicate that this is what is happening and the missing genders are definitely on the way. I'm perfectly content to be patient as long as they keep us informed!

Whatever the answer is, they really need to give it soon, because this is something at least some of us are willing to leave the game over, and I'd wager a lot of people will be less likely to return if they stay unsubbed for long enough to lose their houses or get pruned from their FC.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's a matter of patience. They have a lot on their plate already and even if they do decide to add the missing genders it isn't likely to be anytime soon. The priority right now is Shadowbringers. Once the expansion launches, they'll likely have a bit more breathing room.

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As the poster above said, I'm more than willing to wait so long as they keep us informed beyond, "we've heard you and are waiting to see more feedback." At least, an deeper acknowledgment and official confirmation/deconfirmation of further plans in response would be nice, as they've already mentioned anticipating backlash.

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Originally Posted by Cerat

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Originally Posted by Cerat

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Yes all of your responses are correct in interpreting ^^

Deviation is a bit harder to grasp at this time of night, but consider it a necessary factor into considering how many people we must poll in order to relate it to the entire active playerbase.

Unfortunately we can't see dislikes as said. We must go upon responses who are against mViera, other threads that exist that are also against mViera and its number of likes as well which are all vastly low compared to this thread and support in general. What the statistics are virtually saying is that we can take this thread's unique likes + the sample size theory + the poll and we can extrapolate that if SE were to stick their hand into a bowl and grab 330-360 responses from this forum or 384 responses from the active playerbase, one could be 95% confident that at least 50% of those 384 responses would be in support of mViera, give or take ~5% (margin of error). One could call this considerable demand.

For the poll, I made the margin of error greater in the poll only because I'm unsure if duplicates are possible. If we see the worst case scenario and observe that even then in such a worst case margin of error that there is still high demand, well then one can imagine the best case scenario. But the poll I do believe is viable information. It is able to be spread outside of the forums and thus has higher visibility to those whose agreeance/disagreeance varies further helps the random poll idea that can't exactly be had on the forums.

Edit : This isn't even considering the added support for fHroth. The data could be combined but that's treading into the arena of probability & mutually exclusiveness/inclusiveness statistics.

As many have said, I'm perfectly happy to be patient, so long as an answer is given.

I'll even take a no, just so long as I know if I'm wasting my time or not.

Because even if they do I will continue to support this in the hopes they say yes.

But I have confidence they'll roll back on this decision, and hopefully we'll know before too long theyve decided to give us the missing genders.

I wasn't expecting so much math when i woke up this morning XD

https://scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram...ninstagram.com

http://www.picbon.us/user/pierrearmal/1803401678

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I wasn't expecting so much math when i woke up this morning XD

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This thread really has everything