OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!

Lol cross skills.. yea not gonna lie, thats an issue. I don't know whats worse, that whm get good cross class skills from sch and give such bad ones or that the ones we give are just so terrible in the first place....

They really should just make the traited skills cross over.

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Originally Posted by Celsius

Really fanservice, thats all i'm aksing for. i want WHM's Niche to be AOE healing and i dont wanna take that form them. im glad you actually see where im coming from.

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I actually haven't disagreed with a lot of your and fans latest post. In fact, I have supported most of it. I agree on the pet issues. I have agreed with fixing the pet 100 potency/reducing CD.

I even agreed that the issue of SCH x 2 penalty should be addressed. I disagree that the answer is giving SCH a direct group heal... the reason is that it doesn't fix the shield overlap issue- it just buffs the class... and because it takes focus off the pet.

That doesn't mean that I don't think that SCH should get some kind of mechanic to fix the penalty- I actually do- I'm just not sure what it can be without homogenizing. Shield stacking is dangerous, especially with 24 man content on the horizon.

Maybe.. they could fix pet AI and tie a better aoe to the pet?

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Originally Posted by Celsius

Maybe.. they could fix pet AI and tie a better aoe to the pet?

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That is what I am hoping for!

They could give an aetherflow ability to convert all shields within 20 yards into equivilant healing

Or they can make sacred soil pulse the shield converting effect every 3 seconds or so. Soil is quite meh for an aetherflow ability considering eye for an eye and virus can be crossed class.

Sch is a much weaker tank healer then whm when they lose aetherflow. They barely compare to whm. During 1 or no aetherflow times.

2 sch succor shields should stack.2 succor shields is equivalent to 1 adloquium shield or 1 whm stone skin.

Adloquium and whm stone skins are not trivilising content in anyway . So 2 succors would be fine. If 2 succors ever trivilise content then adloquium and whm stoneskin would be doing be doing so too at that point anyways.

SE can just make one shot mechanics ignore shields. They don't need to anyways since they already hit for rediculous numbers.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

2 sch succor shields should stack.2 succor shields is equivalent to 1 adloquium shield or 1 whm stone skin.

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What about 24 man content? Two SCH would be okay... but you would be right back here complaining that 4 whms were better than 4 SCH. They need to fix the SCH penalty, and stacking won't do it without causing issues.

Pet heals would work and safetly scale.

They could also rework shield mechanics. Make schs own shield spells and others stack with each other up to hp cap.
The maximum shield amount on target would be the amount of 1 critical adloquium. So a single sch can do 6 succors or 2400 mana stacking the shield to prevent 1500 damage or 2 sch could use 3 succors for 1200 mana to prevent 1500 damage.
That would be double sch fixed for 8 man.

For 24 man i think that having more then 3 of one class abilities should be penalised. So 1 target cannot more then 3 regens or more then3 medica2 regens. . So 3 whm would be good but 4,5 or 6 would be passable due but not optimal. If medica 2 and regen stack up 6 or more in raids. Whm stacking and maybe 1 sch would be optimal party setup.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

They could also rework shield mechanics. Make schs own shield spells and others stack with each other up to hp cap.
The maximum shield amount on target would be the amount of 1 critical adloquium. So a sch can spend like 6 succors or 2400 mana stacking the shield to prevent 1500 damage or 2 sch could use 3 succors to prevent 1500 damage.
That would sch fixed for 8 man.

For 24 man i think that having more then 3 of one class abilities should be penalised. So 1 target cannot more then 3 regens or more then3 medica2 regens. . So 3 whm would be good but 4,5 or 6 would be passable due but not optimal. If medica 2 and regen stack up 6 or more in raids. Whm stacking and maybe 1 sch would be optimal party setup.

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Okay... assuming the potential for this to be abused aside... it still doesn't give SCH any way to effectively fill health up any faster...So, you are still trying to heal the raid at half potency, right? Just like now?

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Okay... assuming the potential for this to be abused aside... it still doesn't give SCH any way to effectively fill health up any faster...So, you are still trying to heal the raid at half potency, right? Just like now?

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That would be double sch's weakness. They would be spending 3 gcds each (15 seconds total) to preemptively mitigate what a single whm can heal in 1 single gcd of 2.5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

That would sch weakness

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So, the only issue is- how to balance encounters for a potential 1500+ shield on everyone all the time? When you have say 3 whms and 1 scholar, those mechanics might 1 shot people.

You can't just ignore shields... or that would make the shield stacking worthless... and SCH would complain.

1500 hp shield goes in the blink of an eye and it takes 15 seconds and 2400 mana to put up

Mechanics intended to one shot mechanics should always one shot.

Stacking shields up to a cap which se determines is balanced or converting the no effect shields into healing

Either way would fix sch stacking

24 man whm stacking would still have to be nerfed by limiting maximum amount of regen/medica2 on a single target to 3 per effect. 6 regens and 6 medica 2 would be a 1500 potency regen effect ticking on tank for only 2 gcd of each whm.

That would be around 3500hp healed every 3 seconds with my current gear(full DL and +1relic) . Divine sealed that would be 4550hp per 3 second. LoL i would like to see that in action >_> .I can only imagine what crazy hps it would become with full af2, mind potions and critical strikes factored in. The most broken thing about it that it is passive healing. The whms are free to do other things while regens are healing everyone.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

@ Celsius cuz i keep breaking the quote thing and the length issues...

Its not like i don't see where you are coming from.. if the shield mechanics on your aoe were somehow tweaked to allow for healing when people are fully shielded your potency would be just as good as medica which would be fine. It should come at a cost of some sort but i'm not disagreeing.

I really do find it dumb that once shielded you are healing with 150 potency. god forbid there are two sch doing that.. but my point is maybe you shouldn't be. If your partner is a whm support him/her to raid heal while you efficiently heal the tank and also top up and shield the party so the whm can regen mana. If there are two scholars... i dunno what se was thinking... maybe double fairy regen plus st heals.. i dont' know. maybe make the dmg mitigation from various skill stack like eye, virus, soil etc.

I don't understand if sch are asking to raid heal alone or if they are actually trying to addres the sch synergy issues. Sch/sch issues are real, pet issues are real. I'm not sure that sch needing to be raid healers is an issue.

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You are the only one with sensible answer here. Most WHMs in here reacted like tmr is the end of the world when SCHs asking for their issues being addressed. Right now at Titan and up in appropriate gear level 2SCH cant function, unless you are in exceptional group to avoid all unavoidable damage (which is a dream for most of us). SCH/WHM works but WHM/WHM also works, without sacrificing much healing prowess.

in 24m, even if medica 2 is limited on one's party, 6 regens ticking on maintank for sure will dwarf anything SCHs can come up with.

The stacking regen and medica II with lots of WHM will be kind of ridiculous, lets hope that SE is aware of this and can think of a way to balance it properly, I think a solution could be a stacking buff with different timers and the same kinda deal for a SCH and shields that allow multiple stacks of the same buff but limit those stacks to x number, but each stack has its own duration attached to the caster, and this could also allow multiple stacks of things like succor "whatever they wanted to allow".

The difference being that only "your" timer shows on "your" screen and the system takes care of the stacks and the spell icon displays with a small 2 in the corner, or whatever-.

A good scholar is very noticeable all i've read from the whiners are apples to oranges arguments and really the crux of the issue i'm seeing is Scholars want to play like a WHM, but you can't and don't want to accept that fact. As always the Vocal minority are bitching on the forums and scholars enjoying their job are in game getting better.

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Originally Posted by Lifendeath

A good scholar is very noticeable all i've read from the whiners are apples to oranges arguments and really the crux of the issue i'm seeing is Scholars want to play like a WHM, but you can't and don't want to accept that fact. As always the Vocal minority are bitching on the forums and scholars enjoying their job are in game getting better.

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Totally agreed, the bads will continue to whine while the rest of us chug away with a good FC and work with/around any possible things that creep up. So far those are far and few between.

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Originally Posted by Kalagg

Totally agreed, the bads will continue to whine while the rest of us chug away with a good FC and work with/around any possible things that creep up. So far those are far and few between.

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I'm honestly just asking. I play a whm. So then what do two good scholars do if they need to raid heal in heavy aoe. Assuming your party only makes the occasional slip up. Do you st heal? can your damage mitigation stack? Or do you both spam succor and sync fairies?

edit: Also i don't mean to be rude, but it looks like you haven't even touched end game content. unless you have another character... I think calling people bads when you haven't had to experience content for yourself is a stretch don't you?

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Originally Posted by Kalagg

Totally agreed, the bads will continue to whine while the rest of us chug away with a good FC and work with/around any possible things that creep up. So far those are far and few between.

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Lol since you have been a SCH for what an hour you defenitely know what the issues are. I did not have any issues with SCH till endgame and I really dont have any now other than 2 SCH will not happen in any group, its just a terrible combo. SCH as it would seem is a tank healer and raid support, which is fine with me, that is what I hoped it would be and it ended up that way. I dont really see any whining that it is too hard to tank heal, I think people would just like to be able have the option to take 2 SCH into an 8 man or 24 man when they come out if they do not have enough WHM and an extra SCH.

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Originally Posted by Kalagg

Succor spamming is a sure sign of a bad scholar. You sacred soil, succor and then you and your faerie single target heal. Its not as hard as the bad scholars keep making it out to be.

And if you are commenting on my gear saying I haven't done endgame content just wow. The WoW mentality of gear makes the player is pathetic. As a good healer you don't need gear to properly heal your groups.

With double scholar the key is communication so you don't overwrite the other guys shield. It also helps if you set targets for who heals what, you both don't focus on the whole 8 man you only have to worry about yourself and 3 other people, making it the same as healing a 4 man dungeon run.

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I ran out of posts for today, I hope you find this here. I apologize, when I first looked at your char shot on the left I swear it said Lvl 32 ACN, that is where my comment came from, it had nothing to do with your gear but the fact that it looked like you hit SCH right before you got on the forums. Also you cannot overwrite a shield the new shield just fails. I don't disagree with what you are saying, the only issue I see is that it is still more beneficial to take 2 WHM over 2 SCH. Not that SCH are not useful they are just much less useful as 2 SCH. The point is that Succor does not work together with another SCH. Why would it be bad to have the Succor Shield stack to like 2 or 3, it would essentially work the same way it would just make it = to 2 WHM.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

I'm honestly just asking. I play a whm. So then what do two good scholars do if they need to raid heal in heavy aoe. Assuming your party only makes the occasional slip up. Do you st heal? can your damage mitigation stack? Or do you both spam succor and sync fairies?

edit: Also i don't mean to be rude, but it looks like you haven't even touched end game content. unless you have another character... I think calling people bads when you haven't had to experience content for yourself is a stretch don't you?

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The best way would be for one of the SCH to cast Succor and then both just use physic to spot heal. The ideal would be for one SCH to precast Succor before the Aoe and then another after both ST physic to top off. It is not impossible but just kind of a waste. The best way to use succor IMO is to learn the fights so you can precast it for the shield and mitigate the damage so you have a little more time to top everyone off.

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

Lol since you have been a SCH for what an hour you defenitely know what the issues are. I did not have any issues with SCH till endgame and I really dont have any now other than 2 SCH will not happen in any group, its just a terrible combo. SCH as it would seem is a tank healer and raid support, which is fine with me, that is what I hoped it would be and it ended up that way. I dont really see any whining that it is too hard to tank heal, I think people would just like to be able have the option to take 2 SCH into an 8 man or 24 man when they come out if they do not have enough WHM and an extra SCH.

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Agreed. The sch/sch issue isn't really one anyone can ignore. Even if it is not intended for end game content dungeon finder does exist. And so do casual players who may want to get into raid content without a reliable fc. It will happen that a raid has to deal with sch/sch, and atm without voice chat and serious coop it seems harder than needed.

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Originally Posted by Lifendeath

A good scholar is very noticeable all i've read from the whiners are apples to oranges arguments and really the crux of the issue i'm seeing is Scholars want to play like a WHM, but you can't and don't want to accept that fact. As always the Vocal minority are bitching on the forums and scholars enjoying their job are in game getting better.

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No, the crux of the issue is that most WHMs think they know what SCHs actually want and post accordingly. Most likely those ignorant WHMs cant read past the first post of a thread also, lolz.

Succor spamming is a sure sign of a bad scholar. You sacred soil, succor and then you and your faerie single target heal. Its not as hard as the bad scholars keep making it out to be.

And if you are commenting on my gear saying I haven't done endgame content just wow. The WoW mentality of gear makes the player is pathetic. As a good healer you don't need gear to properly heal your groups.

With double scholar the key is communication so you don't overwrite the other guys shield. It also helps if you set targets for who heals what, you both don't focus on the whole 8 man you only have to worry about yourself and 3 other people, making it the same as healing a 4 man dungeon run.

I find scholar to be either balanced or OP as it sits now, some of the stuff a good player can do with this class makes you feel bad but you also laugh at the same time.

The big problem is all these horrible players keep coming in here trying to say we suck and they are also trying to play our class like a white mage. We are not a white mage and never will be. And sometimes its not the scholar that's horrible its the rest of the group. A bad tank that doesn't dodge mechanics makes your life miserable, bad dps that don't dodge mechanics because it lowers their dps meter are just the same. I've had to yell at both of these before in groups. Its easier to fix these bad behaviors in your free company than it is a PUG but this is the biggest reason for most scholar complaints.

You don't have the tools to heal all 8 people at once, you can medic all 8 people and then spot heal to full. There is nothing wrong with that mechanic but if you are lazy and don't know how to macro/change targets quickly you will suck at this class, period.

Most of the complaining is coming from those such people, not understanding the jobs strengths and weaknesses and finding out ways to minimize the weaknesses.

Also the pet AI is not as horrible as everyone keeps making it out to be. The huge issue is it doesn't heal like those people want it to heal, guess what, its computer code and its extremely predictable because it always does exactly what its programmed to do. Learn to adapt your playstyle to account for this, the code is not going to change just because you want it to.

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

The point is that Succor does not work together with another SCH. Why would it be bad to have the Succor Shield stack to like 2 or 3, it would essentially work the same way it would just make it = to 2 WHM.

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No problem, yea the forums aren't updating avatars for some reason. I don't tend to rely on that stuff when looking at the content of someone's post. As I keep saying there are just tons of people complaining instead of making themselves better players. I get mad seeing all the complaints when honestly most of it can be worked around.

I really don't see the need for stacking shields. Would it be nice, sure, it just seems to be game breaking and would totally trivialize all of the content that currently exists. As a lot of the white mage's in this thread keep pointing out, the potential for abuse is far too great for something like that. I can see them being pushed out of groups for double scholar's with a stacking shield mechanic.

I'm going to personally level a SCH so i can compare between WHM and SCH. As it sits right now, it just seems that every SCH that i get paired with, they can't really keep up with heals as easy as i can. Obviously i can be horribly wrong, as many have already pointed out. We just need more people having both sides of the story and comparing it that way, instead of people with only either/or and saying "WE DA BEST, STFU GTFO".

My personal preference is to run White Mage/Scholar and its how my Free Company handles our content runs. Why? because its just too good of a combo. Its my personal preference because I get to be a total lazy ass. Most of the time I run the whole time with cleric stance on, turning it off to succor, then turning it back on and spot healing with it on.

Its really great because I don't have to waste cross class slots on protect and stoneskin and can instead put them into the dots and the thaumaturge abilities.

You honestly can't beat the dps a scholar can contribute to a fight in that setup. You have 8 dots you can add to the boss/fight one of which is a gtaoe that can help with adds as well, not to mention you can spread 3 of those dots to the adds.

People really need to learn to play the class better. You mitigate damage, you can add to the groups dps, your faerie is always healing even if you or the other healer can't. The complaints are unwarranted.

I don't think stacking is the answer. Raising effective health by that much would be game breaking.
But how can you ignore that in content that is balanced for two healers and that uses heavy aoe dmg mechanics that two scholars don't step on each other. No one has yet to answer me if mitigation skills stack, like eye, virus etc. But shields do not, whether its the st shield or aoe shield. So two scholars are expected to heal a raid with a single aoe shield with a potency of 150, and spam physick? I'm a whm and i don't see how two white mages could raid heal with cure 1 even if we could mitigate some of the damage beforehand.

Most aoe dmg isn't constant, there is usually what, 10sec? between the raid getting smashed? Unless you are over geared how the heck do you propose two scholars fill a raids health up in time with... for your gear lvl... 700 for a physick? maybe 750? When most dps have over 3k health and its not like damage stops. So more than likely one sch still has to stay on the tank.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

No one has yet to answer me if mitigation skills stack, like eye, virus etc... So two scholars are expected to heal a raid with a single aoe shield with a potency of 150, and spam physick? I'm a whm and i don't see how two white mages could raid heal with cure 1 even if we could mitigate some of the damage beforehand.

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I've honestly never checked if virus and eye for an eye stack but I will look into it for you over the weekend as we have some summoners I can test it with.

The one thing you are forgetting is that in that instance you have 4 healers spamming the equivalent of physick. 2 scholars also gives you 2 faeries which also have embrace. You would not believe how quickly 8 people go back to full with 4 healers spamming single target heals and only 2 of the 8 man slots have a healer class in them. 2 white mages versus 2 scholars isn't an apples to apples comparison for single target healing.

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Originally Posted by Kalagg

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Another thing to remember when things don't stack is that they have x amount of time that they can be on target, if you have 2 scholars on voice communication you can alternate those non stacking skills so they last even longer on the target, that is HUGE. Virus only lasts 10s with a 90s recast, you increase that to 20s and you only have 70s of downtime on it. With eye for an eye you increase the time it has the chance to proc to a full 60s which means only 20s of it not being on the target during the fight, again that's a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Kalagg

My personal preference is to run White Mage/Scholar and its how my Free Company handles our content runs. Why? because its just too good of a combo..

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Mine, too. I have played with some really good scholars and just been amazed at what they could do....at the end of fights I found myself think "Man, if something drops and the SCH gets it- THEY DESERVE IT- WOW"

The difference between healing with another whm or a good scholar is just night and day.

Lol Kalagg calling people baddies because they have legitimate questions/problems with a class. And yes, you DO need proper gear to heal groups. in coil have fun with those 700 heals. when your tank is taking over 2k damage. during coil you have NO time to dps because your raid and tank are taking constant damage.

i dont know what "content" you think you are doing but i know that you wont have enough time to DPS while healing your tank. and a sch is bad if he chaincasts succor? we have no other means of AoE and sometimes a WHM needs the help and dont tell me

"use it once and let your whm heal up the raid" cause if you use succor a nd a dps gets hit and is supposed to take 2.5k damage but instead takes 2.2 after that miniscule mitigation you just did your left with a 150 potency your sometimes forced to use. and dont give me that "wow mentality" the game is even putting ilevel restrictions so undergeared people dont cause uncessesary stress on people who actually want to clear content.

Also in some fights you cant even sacred soil because your partyt is spread out. actually in MOST fights you cant in coil right now. only place i can think of using it is turn 4 its actually pretty good there.

Also, unless you have some godly accuracy "with that gear you dont" your dots are going to pretty much always miss and it will be a waste of your time and mana.

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Originally Posted by Celsius

Snip...

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See http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ng-in-coil-T_T for gear deficiency issues.

I did the research for you on the people clearing coil before 2.1 issue: http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?foru...181615691&h=50
He does a 40 minute interview which states this will be very hard and it comes back to your gear issue you just described and is commented on in the other healer forum thread I linked to.

You are just reinforcing my point of get better or go play something else. You have obviously figured out your coil issue, its gear so do the smart thing and improve it. Oh wait you can't right now as I've just referenced, so get better at playing the class.

I dont get it. Coil is not even that hard. we have cleared turn 4 and up to it with no issue (besides some hiccups in turn 1-2) the only reason less than 100 people will beat coil is because twintania is bugged and her divebombs are IMPOSSIBLE to avoid.

Really? that doesnt mean im saying the class doesnt have blatant issues. i doubt you have even done titan. your a fresh 50. TELLING ME to get better at the class wen i've been to the end-game as someone who hasnt is kind of stupid dont you think? just because i can clear end-game doesnt mean anything. a warrior can clear end-game even though its 100 times more difficult than a paladin. that "get better at playing the class" line can only be used if you have done the current end-game like titan HM where you start to realize that you CANT use 2 sch unless they know each other and are communicating. unlike whm where they can precast medica and have one medica 2 and then raid is back to full. jz. getting told to play better by a fresh 50


and dont even get me started on 2 scholars in coil. only a group that tries to make things extra challenging would even attempt that.

and nobody said anything about my gear. its YOUR gear im talking about i have cleared all the way up to turn 5 with little to no problem stop talking like you've actually done "end-game" content please.

Add something constructive to the discussion instead of whining that we need a buff because it isn't easy mode enough for you.

What? try reading alot of my previous posts before you say anything. i've been commenting on this post BEFORE you. and alot of us (even conjurers) have come to an agreement that the class does need some fixes. see those nifty numbers above you? click them to go back to before i was wasting my time talking to a 50 who doesnt know what in the world they are tlaking about.

The only major fixes I feel that SCH needs are to pet AI and to how double Succor interacts with each other.

Make the Faerie's ability autocast toggleable, make her stances toggleable, and make her skills macroable. All of a sudden, SCH has a lot more control over their heals and therefore can preform much more efficiently.

SCH doesn't need a super massive AoE heal like WHM if they have their basic mechanics changed to be much more user friendly.

Honestly,

SCH heals are not for the faint of heart. If you want an easy time healing then go roll a WHM and stop your moaning.

I run as a SCH and the only issue i ever experience is the AI issues with Eos and Selene....but YET you just keybind her abilities and voila! Problem solved.

Personally, all ive seen on this thread so far is a bunch of cry babys who cant handle the challenge of a difficult class. Suck it up or go roll your face on your keyboard as a WHM. Kthx.

aww what a cute little 47 arcnaist who hasnt even done any end-game talking like he knows something. if you think its a difficult class pre-50 then you just suck lmao. no healing class is difficult and nobody is saying its hard. god some people. is it hard being ignorant blind AND retarded?

we are simply asking for better ai and a better Aoe. maybe not on the scale of medica, but right now using succor more than once (accept for titan HM) is a waste of mana for a 150 poten heal. which is why almost all the people who have contributed to the thread (unlike certain people you included rhode) agree that this wouldnt be too UP or OP and would be just what SCH's need right now.

Go do some end-game and then post please.

my succ heals for around 400 hp. Also gives 400shield. I think its good enough :O I don't even think about what you guys complain.

And yes i killed titan alredy with whm in pt. Was super easy.