If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you are holding back your team at endgame

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

If you want to do Endgame I hope you have all your skills

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if ppl had skills in endgame, they would not need a WHM to cast swiftcast+raise =P

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Originally Posted by Shizato

if ppl had skills in endgame, they would not need a WHM to cast swiftcast+raise =P

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lol cuz you know healers only heal bad people. good players never need to be raised or healed, mmhhmmm got it

lol

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Originally Posted by alhandra

lol cuz you know healers only heal bad people. good players never need to be raised or healed, mmhhmmm got it

lol

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well yes, if you die when its not part of the mechanics, you are bad...or your ISP/computer sucks at the wrong time =P

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Originally Posted by Shizato

if ppl had skills in endgame, they would not need a WHM to cast swiftcast+raise =P

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As others have said, swiftcast is used for more than just raises. I sincerely hope you don't take that 'I can be a gimp and bring down the rest of the pt cuz im gud' attitude in the game, its a good way to get kicked :P

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Originally Posted by Shizato

well yes, if you die when its not part of the mechanics, you are bad...or your ISP/computer sucks at the wrong time =P

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Even the best ppl can get hit by a plume sometimes, especially in the new fights. With swiftcast, you can instantly fix this mistake and make the fight continue.

Get off your high horse, no one is perfect.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Even the best ppl can get hit by a plume sometimes, especially in the new fights. With swiftcast, you can instantly fix this mistake and make the fight continue.

Get off your high horse, no one is perfect.

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Nuh uh, his lvl 50 drg and lvl 46 monk have neber eber died not once! I seen it! All yalls jus scrubs!

Swiftcast is a fantastic endgame ability to have as well as Eye for an Eye. I personally use swiftcast more often for spells with long cast times (e.g. stoneskin, medica, medica II) and will wait for my swiftcast to be up to raise someone if they go down. I've only found people going down on primals and other endgame content.

I believe that parties without swiftcast are people leveling alts/people unaware of forums/people unaware they can cross-class. A friendly suggestion will push them in the right direction. They may not be perfect now, but you can always help them to improve for others down the line =)

I agree. I just got my WHM job and I switched over to Thaumaturge to get swiftcast. I've come across tons of WHMs that have Conjurer 15 and WHM 50 and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Even the best ppl can get hit by a plume sometimes, especially in the new fights. With swiftcast, you can instantly fix this mistake and make the fight continue.

Get off your high horse, no one is perfect.

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Then why is a whm bad because they don't have swiftcast? No one is perfect right?

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Then why is a whm bad because they don't have swiftcast? No one is perfect right?

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u can get swiftcast, u cant avoid mistakes :3

all game content can easily be done without swift cast and eye. Every boss does the same pattern you can easily tell what is coming before it comes its not really hard.

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

u can get swiftcast, u cant avoid mistakes :3

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It wasn't the mistake of the WHM, he just got blamed for not having swiftcast+res when someone else screwed up. Are we honestly giving crap to people for not having a spell that benefits carrying bad players the most? Sure everyone makes mistakes but it is most often used on the guy who is just going to run right back into something else that kills them and say "O crap lag!".

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

all game content can easily be done without swift cast and eye. Every boss does the same pattern you can easily tell what is coming before it comes its not really hard.

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Honestly what's the point of these replies? "Avoid stuff" is not a reasonable argument for not farming out your other skills. You can probably beat DPS checks without any cross class skills too, but why would you? Why would you knowingly disadvantage yourself?

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Originally Posted by Skotie

It wasn't the mistake of the WHM, he just got blamed for not having swiftcast+res when someone else screwed up. Are we honestly giving crap to people for not having a spell that benefits carrying bad players the most? Sure everyone makes mistakes but it is most often used on the guy who is just going to run right back into something else that kills them and say "O crap lag!".

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This is just a crazy sentiment to have in a cooperative game. Why do you not want to help people in your raid? Why do you want to hinder your raid?

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Originally Posted by Worm

Honestly what's the point of these replies? "Avoid stuff" is not a reasonable argument for not farming out your other skills. You can probably beat DPS checks without any cross class skills too, but why would you. Why would you knowingly disadvantage yourself?


This is just a crazy sentiment to have in a cooperative game. Why do you not want to help people in your raid? Why do you want to hinder your raid?

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Because its a pain for some people to farm these skills. And i disagree with your avoid stuff statement, if its a repetitive problem then theres something wrong with the group. In addition if people are talking about holding back group because you couldve done something more then the same goes for if you are not carrying/using food and potions your doing the same thing. But i agree if you are like helping bads out and know people will die to simple stuff then you should have these cross class skills.

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Originally Posted by Worm

This is just a crazy sentiment to have in a cooperative game. Why do you not want to help people in your raid? Why do you want to hinder your raid?

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Why do a few people need to work harder than others to carry the people who are always screwing up in the first place. Yeah I like lots of people and how good they are at games doesn't effect how I think about them(outside of games anyways). But come on man how many games are you going to win when you keep picking all the fat kids for your team?

Why is this even a discussion? If Swiftcast is useful a non-zero amount of the time, then it's better to have it than not. If you play your character in any substantial amount of endgame activities, why haven't you bothered to get it? Plus you will actually enjoy playing your character that much more. For the love of god, why would you defend the decision to not have one of your skills? I have lost fights by the narrowest margin. Why would you not strive to have every edge available to you? Yes, you are holding your team back if you don't have it. Although, to be fair, people who can't stay out of aoes are holding their team back too. Now stop trying to defend a terrible decision and use the time you're spending on doing so grinding THM to 26 and getting Swiftcast! LOL

From my guess there are cross class skills some see as mandatory for each job to have. Well then they should have just made those skills part of the job. It's an illusion of choice if everybody see's a spell or skill as mandatory. The min max attitude has a tendency to bite a company in the butt when they come up with some new character creation mechanic they think gives people options when in the end we players turn it on its head requiring a specific character formula.

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Originally Posted by Slambo

If I'm casting raise YOU are doing it wrong. you show me a fight with a guaranteed 1 shot to someone (every time) and I'll agree with you though.

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I agree with this lol. We as the DPS or Tanker should also be well aware of our surroundings and prevent ourself from getting hurt the best as possible because it will help relief some burden for the healer to focus healing on tanks.

But i do admit, Swiftcast is a very very important skill that all WHM should have, especially for Raise. I always admire healers who are able to time that Swiftcast Raise once a man is down to at least keep hopes of winning the challenge.

However, Swiftcast Raise does not exactly change the outcome of the endgame much, especially with the weakness penalty applied, it might actually cause more stress to the whole team to keep the weakened guy topped up or on highest priority for heal.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

In addition if people are talking about holding back group because you couldve done something more then the same goes for if you are not carrying/using food and potions your doing the same thing.

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Yes of course consumables count, why would you not use these? Why would you not want a cross class skill that makes you better at your job (let's pretend you never put out battle res or heals on to people who get hit by avoidable damage because you hold them to the standards of your own self-delusion of perfection), why wouldn't you want to do your best? I mean I guess I could understand if you're in a whole guild where no one bothers with anything and really doesn't care if they wipe, but if you want to kill the boss, sure yeah of course, you bring someone back up. You do what it takes to get it done, you don't obsess over baby talk like "baddies" you leave your ego at the door and you accomplish the objective. It is simple, it is beautiful, and it is pure. It's too bad you can't understand that or think it's "trolling" to pretend you're unable to understand it.

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Originally Posted by SilverRhythm

However, Swiftcast Raise does not exactly change the outcome of the endgame much, especially with the weakness penalty applied, it might actually cause more stress to the whole team to keep the weakened guy topped up or on highest priority for heal.

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Having to heal up that guy is probably less stressful than wiping at 1% ... probably.

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Originally Posted by Roaminggnome

From my guess there are cross class skills some see as mandatory for each job to have. Well then they should have just made those skills part of the job. It's an illusion of choice if everybody see's a spell or skill as mandatory. The min max attitude has a tendency to bite a company in the butt when they come up with some new character creation mechanic they think gives people options when in the end we players turn it on its head requiring a specific character formula.

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Of COURSE it's an illusion of choice! You get 5 cross class abilities out of 7 and Ruin and Physick are useless. There SHOULD be more choices but there aren't and until there are then you should have Swiftcast. Not having access to all your available skills is gimp and over time even being gimp in a small way will set you back (and not having Swiftcast is more than a small handicap). This is not to say that you can't win X fight without Y skill only that it is not optimal to try to do so.

Saying a healer should not bother getting Swiftcast because a good party should never need a raise in combat is like saying a Warrior should never bother taking Gladiator to 22 for Provoke (the only threat copy in the game) because a good group should never see a mob peel away from the tank's aggro, and thus need Provoke to be pulled back.

Granted, both skills have uses beyond what people think of being their typical uses, but really.

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Originally Posted by Worm

what..

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This is nothing about my ego or w/e other garbage your trying to spew a game can be played any way people please. From my experience i didnt really need swiftcast or eye, i had no problem tackling all game content and like i said only got swiftcast for t5. You are also assuming battle res cant be cast without swiftcast, who came up with that? Ive had no problem resing normally, even in t5, the exception may be t4 only. Again this is my opinion and perception from experiences in game, but i guess if i dont agree with your assessment of cross class skills i must not understand anything? Cause that seems childish to me.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

This is nothing about my ego

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

But i agree if you are like helping bads out and know people will die to simple stuff then you should have these cross class skills.

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Yeah, okay.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Yeah, okay.

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Perhaps my definition of 'bads' was a bit vague. People that try to learn to dodge stuff, learn mechanics, ask questions and have a positive attitude for that team hence aernt relying on res/cures for easily avoidable mechanics are not in that category. Rather players that will cry for res/heals, will make same repeatedly made mistakes and that will want a healer that can carry them rather then pull their own weight. I get the feeling a lot of posters here illustrate that definition.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

Perhaps my definition of 'bads' was a bit vague. People that try to learn to dodge stuff, learn mechanics, ask questions and have a positive attitude for that team hence aernt relying on res/cures for easily avoidable mechanics are not in that category. Rather players that will cry for res/heals, will make same repeatedly made mistakes and that will want a healer that can carry them rather then pull their own weight. I get the feeling a lot of posters here illustrate that definition.

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Well you're the one with Swiftcast first of all. I sort of get your point here but in the end responding with "lol baddies need res" is just unfortunately going to make me think you're an idiot(Sorry). It's a useful ability and characterizing anyone who expects you to have it as some idiot who stands in fire is just as bad as characterizing anyone who doesn't have the ability as a lazy healer, except that healer demonstrably doesn't have swiftcast the DPS in the course of a raid can learn to dodge.

That's sort of where your argument falls flat. Not having that ability is a refusal to improve, I mean that's why you have it after all, right? Healers going into raids without it are just has bad as DPS who go into fights not even having read a guide. It's preemptively disadvantaging yourself, and backing it up with some ridiculous argument about how only losers need battle res simply isn't reasonable. ESPECIALLY when you yourself have the skill.

This would be like me arguing that I don't need to watch a video of a fight since I'll be carried, but then watching a video of that fight. Obviously I can't really believe in that.

EDIT: I really do get where you're coming from now that you've stated it a little more clearly, but you have to understand how the "there's no one way to play the game" arugment applies to crappy DPS that expects you to res them every single time they screw up as well, right?

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Originally Posted by Worm

Well you're the one with Swiftcast

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No offence but your argument doesnt really have much substance and seems more like "I think everyone needs it, end of story". You are allowed to believe that however when you push other healers into having that skill thats a little disrespectful to how someone chooses to play. Personally i went without it and only got it for my team for t5, and your argument for "self improvement" is a kind of poor attempt to rationalise your argument. First everyone has different goals, and contrary to your statement i found it actually more beneficial to my game to go without it first and see where that gets me, then i can start to integrate more stuff into my game once ive mastered key concepts like timing of heals, aggro and mana management,etc. I felt it worked out well, and thought i could go without swift for last turn, which i probaby could but i decided to go for it since i had time before we were scheduled to go in.

You also assume everyone has to play 1 way, personally i like a challenge and the harder the fight the better, and I really wanted to see where it gets me by just using the skills i have been given from the start. I felt it was a fun adventure, and now im looking forward to more hard fights.

At the end this whole argument has pretty much been if you dont have swiftcast your gimping your team, however if your not bringing 100%, and not using pots/food all the time and saying this stuff then its pretty hypocritical.

I don't think they NEED to have it, but I don't know why you wouldn't get it since you're able to, either. It's nice to have the utility.

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Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

I don't think they NEED to have it, but I don't know why you wouldn't get it since you're able to, either. It's nice to have the utility.

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Right, nice to have but not needed. I mean do you see healers tearing apart DPS for not having every possible cross class skill that could improve dps? No.

Nobody cares until someone screws up then blame the healer because they didn't pick up a cross class skill, because someone "very likely" didn't avoid something every character has ability to do.

Next time the WHM without swiftcast rips hate off a WAR tank and provoke is used to help get the fight back under control they should inform their party how cross class skills shouldn't be necessary if everyone is doing what they should be doing.

level up 1 to 26 thm dosen't take that long prolly 1 day.. Swiftcast is not holding back anything it just a good ability.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

At the end this whole argument has pretty much been if you dont have swiftcast your gimping your team, however if your not bringing 100%, and not using pots/food all the time and saying this stuff then its pretty hypocritical.

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It's how everyone raided in WoW I'll probably do the same stuff here if for nothing more than meter wankery. This is assuming I even bother with end game.

My argument has plenty of substance mainly, "You are using the exact arguments crappy DPS use to defend their lack of fight knowledge", that's all there is to it. You lost the right to blame someone for being unprepared and needing carried the second you started defending being unprepared. The spell has good utility for a reasonably small cost. It sure seems to beat the hell out of Blood for Blood or Mercy Stroke, but I'm farming both of them out.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Right, nice to have but not needed. I mean do you see healers tearing apart DPS for not having every possible cross class skill that could improve dps? No.

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If you had a few wipes at 1% yeah you might see that.

ppl thinking Swiftcast on WHM is only good for rez are bad and should feel bad

The ability has so much utilities and such a low CD that you can use it for nearly all your spells in a Oh shi- moment

Tank getting smashed Cure 2 + Swiftcast Cure 2. Top him up
Party taking some srs aoe dmg Swiftcast that Medica!
High movement fight, dodging something and someone needs a heal. Swiftcast that B

Stop being lazy and get Swiftcast

I don't call out people on jobs I'm not familiar with, but if I see a SMN or BLM not using their cross class skills, I will bring it up as a suggestion. Raging Strikes for 20% extra damage, for example. In tougher fights that extra DPS is going to make me more appealing than a BLM or SMN without it.

And again still ignoring the world/server firsts... those guys do suck.

My guess is if you think swiftcast isn't important you also think Eye for an Eye isn't either... AmIrite? Iamrite...

I'm surprised so many players don't have swiftcast. It's such an important ability for healers.

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Originally Posted by Worm

It's how everyone raided in WoW I'll probably do the same stuff here if for nothing more than m

My argument has plenty of substance mainly, "You are using the exact arguments crappy DPS use to defend their lack of fight knowledge", that's all there is to it. You lost the right to blame som.

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I havnt actually made that an argument of mine i just stated the fallacy of players that choose to blame healers for not using swiftcast. So i dont know why you are twisting this further i never made anything my right, if anyone is doing that its you. Ive stated that it is my opinion that swiftcast is not mandatory as a skill to have, which is from personal experience. and idk why you are bringing wow into this i havnt raided there so cant tell you my experiences.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

it is my opinion that swiftcast is not mandatory as a skill to have, which is from personal experience. and idk why you are bringing wow into this i havnt raided there so cant tell you my experiences.

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You don't think a skill that can raise a party member up quickly and make any ability instant cast mandatory? I think it pretty close to mandatory if your ls/fc does any serious content.

Hello.

As a main WHM who has downed a lot of content, I formally declare that you do not need swiftcast to be good. You're not hurting your team by not having it. But, you should get it at some point to (a) shut the elitists up, and (b) to have it for its benefits for those times you can benefit from it.

If your party is failing to move on in something, it has absolutely nothing to do with you not having swiftcast. There are no game mechanics for which this is a required skill. In fact, chances are if you have to use it, it's because someone (or several someones) in your party messed up. If everyone learned to perform the main function of their classes well, and if everyone avoids unnecessary damage, then the party wins.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If people are dying in your party, it's because you aren't healing well enough, or they are doing something terribly wrong.

If you DO have swiftcast, then good for you. If you don't, just plan to get it at some point. But swiftcast doesn't make you a good healer like a +1 doesn't make anyone a good player.

Arguments about food and extra buffs and min/maxed gear are null because this game is not balanced around people having the best of everything. I was doing a Garuda yesterday and MT was saying we were failing because people didn't have food buffs. Meh. It's just a WOW elitism (perhaps any MMO) in which people feel insecure about their own abilities to play a game without every possible buff and strategy made for them. That's not playing a game. That's emulating someone else's success, and making the game as easy as possible so you can pass the content without having to answer to its mechanics.

Until we have mechanics like a guaranteed kill mechanic in a fight, swiftcast is just not as great as people like to make it out to be. Use it at the "wrong" time, and there is no benefit. Add to this argument how you have to babysit a carcass, and rezzing in any battle is more of a detriment than it is a benefit.

The End.

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Originally Posted by Doo

I'm surprised so many players don't have swiftcast. It's such an important ability for healers.

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Honestly, its totally understandable for people trying out healing for the first few times. Its sad to see though so many people so adamantly against playing their own main class to it's fullest. As a War, should I not pick up provoke and flash then? Even though it makes my tanking ability go up by 110%?!?!

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Originally Posted by Doo

You don't think a skill that can raise a party member up quickly and make any ability instant cast mandatory? I think it pretty close to mandatory if your ls/fc does any serious content.

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Most times ive downed content people havnt died, if they did even without swiftcast i could manage a raise. Most times due to res the dps check requirements havnt been met either way. At the end if a stupid mistake happened and we cant recover nothing stops us from trying again and mastering the fight.