Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

how do you deal with avoiding using your stuns in stun-reliant raids, like Ifrit HM or Chimera? i hate attempting to sneak them in when my paladins and healers yell at me every time because of the DR bosses build towards CC

and i have another issue, im playing on the ps3 with a gamepad, and even with this fully macro'd i'm having issues getting everything to flow, and i generally have HT fall off before my first FT. the math is correct, but something in the execution, even when fully macro'd and taking the human aspect out, i have issues.

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Originally Posted by JustcallmeSoul

how do you deal with avoiding using your stuns in stun-reliant raids, like Ifrit HM or Chimera? i hate attempting to sneak them in when my paladins and healers yell at me every time because of the DR bosses build towards CC

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Don't use them?

So it's hard to find the discussion in this thread. Is Jump actually useful for DPS at any point using it between skills?

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Originally Posted by JustcallmeSoul

and i have another issue, im playing on the ps3 with a gamepad, and even with this fully macro'd i'm having issues getting everything to flow, and i generally have HT fall off before my first FT. the math is correct, but something in the execution, even when fully macro'd and taking the human aspect out, i have issues.

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You could switch to a different rotation that would be more forgiving with buff timing. There's a small section in my second post (after the rotation discussion) about removing Fracture, which would be one less skill you need to deal with. That rotation will also give you a little more time to hit your HT buff on Full Thrusts. Here it is:

ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph

This should be easier to execute on a PS3.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

So it's hard to find the discussion in this thread. Is Jump actually useful for DPS at any point using it between skills?

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It starts on page 12 and the numbers are on 13. Short answer is yes it is a dps increase.

if youre fighting a boss where stuns landing is important, the dps increase of leg sweep is not worth the higher chance of wiping. its selfish to increase your DPS at the cost of a raid-mate's life

also macros generally round time up, so as opposed to having a 2.4s GCD you have a ~3s when using macros (from what another thread said). taking off all my gear and doing TTT normally ended up substantially higher than TTT macroed. (about 12% higher in both DPS and hits)

About using off-GCD abilities during combos, do you think you'll add in the future a small (or not-so-small if it comes to that) paragraph about which ones are the best in terms of animation/delay? Some of the posts here seem to suggest some of them (Chaos thrust, Full thrust and Phlebotomize), but I didn't really get the chance yet to try if there are others - or even if there are some off-GCD that are more "sneakable" in-or-right-after combos.

Try using your off GCD after Chaostrust and after Full thrust right before the last tick off Heavy Thrust to sneak in some extra damage but too the poster before you, pls don't use your stun on for example Ifrit too sneak some damage, if you do you will increase the stun resistance.

Chaos Thrust and Phlebotomize seem to be far and away the best attacks after which to use a "big" OGCD (Jumps). It's somewhat variable, but I've seen Jump clip like half the CT or PH animation. Like they only animate for a half second. They both result in very little "cost" for using the Jump (although it's still there). It's pretty extreme. Sometimes I even get worried that the damage of those 2 attacks didn't even land (but they do, you can see the big "+PHLEBOTOMIZE" debuff floating text) because so much is clipped.

Full Thrust is an ok backup -- better than most animations, but once you try out PH or CT for your jump, you'll want to use it on those every time.


In terms of macros, no sequence of multiple attacks are effectively macroable for Dragoons. First off, DRGs have no exclusive condition attacks (like Monks do for example). The only way to macro attacks is via the /wait command which is terrible for combat. Just say no. Don't.

However, what does work for macros are a few of the OGCDs.

I have 1 macro:

/macroicon "Full Thrust"
/ac "Full Thrust"
/ac "Life Surge" <me>

When I use Full Thrust, I mash the button so it uses LS during the OGCD before FT, then FT on the GCD.

Note one critical limitation of macro'd attacks: it breaks the ability queuing. Normally, when you press an attack 0.5 seconds before the GCD, the game will queue it up and execute it right on the GCD.

Macros don't seem to work this way. If you press the macro 0.5 seconds before the GCD is available, the game does not seem to queue the attack. As a result, a macro that actually works for attacks (e.g. a Monk), will have a slight delay/stutter before executing every attack. In other words you'll tend to lose 0.1-0.2 seconds on every GCD using an attack macro. This is a lot, for every attack.

This is all my casual observation though, so don't take it as 100%. However, I don't like using on-GCD attacks in macros in general because of it.

Anyways, this can even happen for a "1 attack" macro like the FT one I listed above. If you press the button lazily, the FT may go off 0.1-0.3 seconds after the GCD is available. This is obviously bad. Optimally, I'd have the LS on a separate button entirely. However, I personally can't afford the hotbar/keybind space or attention (although maybe I will in a few weeks), so YMMV. I'm posting it as an option, with tepid recommendation. My bandaid is to mash the button hard to try and minimize the time loss. I'll probably separate the macro at some later date.

My second macro, however, is more useful:

/macroicon "Blood for Blood"
/ac "Blood for Blood" <me>
/ac "Internal Release" <me>
/ac "Power Surge" <me>


I'll probably add /ac "Mercy Stroke" when I get it (sidenote: I might add it above PS).

All the problems with delay after a GCD I mentioned above? Does not apply to most OGCDs because they have a "lot" of slack time between GCD animations. The only thing to note is that Power Surge has a short time limit, so only bust out all 3 when you're ready to use jump very soon.

Personally, I have this macro for all my buff execution. I actually have a separate hotbar that has all 3 buffs individually (but the bar has no hotkeys assigned) solely so I can see their timers. This allows me to slow down and save my Power Surge if I need to wait for Jump to cool down.

Note: once in awhile, Internal Release will fire before BFB. GG macro coding. This is another reason NOT to use an attack macro for Monks.

In terms of pressing the button and result attacks, my general opener ends up looking like:

H - bfb -
I - ir - D - ps - C - jump -
P - sweep

Note: in this perfect situation, it would be slightly more optimal for IR to be first. However, in many situations, I am too busy finding the back to start my buffs, with the following result:

H - none
I - bfb - D - ir - C - ps -
P - jump

Note: I still get a PS'd jump on a good animation (PH), which is nice.


Actually based on this re-assessment, I may switch around IR and BFB in my macro. IR is weaker so I want to use it first before my other buffs are necessarily up (DE). I want to save BFB to sync with stronger attacks (post-DE).

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Originally Posted by xyaie

if youre fighting a boss where stuns landing is important, the dps increase of leg sweep is not worth the higher chance of wiping. its selfish to increase your DPS at the cost of a raid-mate's life

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Which is super annoying because Leg Sweep is a straight ~5% increase in DPS or so. Le sigh.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Chaos Thrust and Phlebotomize seem to be far and away the best attacks after which to use a "big" OGCD (Jumps). It's somewhat variable, but I've seen Jump clip like half the CT or PH animation. Like they only animate for a half second. They both result in very little "cost" for using the Jump (although it's still there). It's pretty extreme. Sometimes I even get worried that the damage of those 2 attacks didn't even land (but they do, you can see the big "+PHLEBOTOMIZE" debuff floating text) because so much is clipped.

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I can confirm this. The difference between using Jump just after CT or Ph is substantial. Doing a full parsed run of AK with my rotation being exactly the same except for Jump Placement I've noticed a 10-15 increase in DPS for a 3-mob encounter (reset each encounter and did the same thing on run #2) by using Jump only after CT / PH as opposed to using it after FT. % wise for me equates to 4-5% approx. for the encounter.

so how does accuracy weigh out compared to other stats?

most of the AK gear has accuracy on it so im just trying to figure out if its worth using over artifact gear

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Originally Posted by spear101

so how does accuracy weigh out compared to other stats?

most of the AK gear has accuracy on it so im just trying to figure out if its worth using over artifact gear

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I dont think anyone has the accuracy formula ironed out yet. with that it would be simple getting a rough stat weight. regardless, AK gear will overcap you for everything but coil, points after cap are worthless.

If you don't have enough ACC, get more ACC, the end. Supposedly misses still happen in Coil at 460 ACC or something. No one knows more specifics as far as I know.

Updated DRG stat weights (approximate):
STR 1
WD 7.536
DET 0.219
CRT 0.162
SS 0.146

So, I'm actually surprised crit is that low compared to SS, with DET showing strong. Note these are based on a baseline DET of 250 and CRT of 445. Also, Internal Release is not factored, which would slightly reduce the value of CRT. Interesting.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Updated DRG stat weights (approximate):

WD 7.536
STR 1
DET 0.219
CRT 0.162
SS 0.146

So, I'm actually surprised crit is that low compared to SS, with DET showing strong. Note these are based on a baseline DET of 250 and CRT of 445. Also, Internal Release is not factored, which would slightly reduce the value of CRT. Interesting.

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What caused the need for updated numbers? They're very close to those originally posted by xyaie, but definitely some differences.

For reference here are his again:

Weapon Damage: 10.541
Strength: 1
Crit: .222
Determination: .193
Skill Speed: .191

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Originally Posted by spear101

so how does accuracy weigh out compared to other stats?

most of the AK gear has accuracy on it so im just trying to figure out if its worth using over artifact gear

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Here's my post on the subject from a couple pages ago:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1316963

I rechecked and my accuracy is actually 471, so I'll pay attention in coil tonight and see if I'm still missing hits or if that has been rectified. I was definitely missing a good percentage of my hits when I was around 430-450.

Mine was math based off what would happen if you spam one ability over and over and seeing the DPS differences based on doing so. it was preliminary numbers to give us a rough idea on what stat to go for.

EasymodeX built a spreadsheet to basically simulate actual combat with the rotations crafted in this thread, then its doing similar. His should be much more accurate to real world situation. While im not surprised on the weapon damage: str part, i wonder why crit jumped up. Internal release shouldn't be that much of a hit to crit.

Well after playing around with accuracy in Coil tonight I have a slightly better idea of where the accuracy cap lies. I know for sure I was still missing abilities around 450 accuracy, and all misses had ceased by 470. Reports of misses in the 460 range are still anecdotal, so the accuracy cap for Coil bosses is somewhere in the range of 455-470.

I'll do some more precise testing tomorrow night now that I have the gear to swap a little more easily. It's tough to pay attention to misses and not get murdered as a melee in Coil.

I didn't model internal release, so that isn't even factored in. I modeled a base crit rate of 445, which should theoretically be just under 13%. Adding a base crit rate will drop a quick valuation of crit.

I modeled life surge in the stat weights, so that's an autocrit on FT. Still, that doesn't change things very much. I did, however, add autoattacks to the DPS estimate, and the AA formula on that website has a significant DET component, compared to ability damage calculations. That's probably the largest shift combined with the addition of the base crit rate across the board.

Has anyone had there off GCD abilities like Blood for Blood bug out on them, and go on cooldown but gain no buff or benefit? wondering if other DRGs are having this issue. It happens if I'm spamming it in between skills, I've had Internal Release, and Life Surge bug also but much more rarely.

I been wondering about this aswell. As I often by simply press my off gcd skills like blood for blood dont cast I forsed to hit the key 3-4 times fast, then back on spam next key as soon first is cast. After a serie of casts and a combo chain I sometimes notice I casted Internal release, bfb and Life s, al is on cd but BfB dont show pn my buff list, it somehow is lost.

/Osicat

I also noticed this... during Turn 4 of BC I sometimes cast Invigorate and notice the skill goes into cooldown but I gain 0 TP. Pretty much fucks up the run.

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Originally Posted by Coercer

Has anyone had there off GCD abilities like Blood for Blood bug out on them, and go on cooldown but gain no buff or benefit? wondering if other DRGs are having this issue. It happens if I'm spamming it in between skills, I've had Internal Release, and Life Surge bug also but much more rarely.

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I've recently started noticing this on HM Ifrit. Blood for Blood would pop and I'd look up at my buffs and it's not there. Not sure if it's because I'm activating my weaponskills so quickly after pressing it where it just kind of overrides the effect before the buff is applied but I'm guessing that's the case.

X, would it be easy to model into your spreadsheet the value of food buffs and potion usage? Ill try to find out the actual numbers of the ideal food and potions (pretty sure potions are "Mega-Potion of strength" which are 49 str for 15s every 5 minutes. Ideally used when both blood for blood and internal release are active it would be worth more than 2.45 str)

i wonder overall if its near worth the cost of buying them. no guild cook/alchemist yet :-/

edit: i -think- http://xivdb.com/?item/4695/Black-Truffle-Risotto is the best food for dragoons
Vitality 2% (Max: 15)
Critical Hit Rate 2% (Max: 9)
Determination 3% (Max: 14)

EP: 4.524

potion would be X-potion of strength 67 str for 15s every 300s

EP: 3.35*
(will be higher in a simulation/reality)

The stat weights I listed were based off a full estimate of DPS sans BFB, IR and Mercy Stroke. So those should be fine. It's half-model half-simulation, so there won't be any significant difference injecting the food to see results, or predicting results based on the stat weights.

tldr: too lazy no point.

The #1 thing I want to find out actually, aside from the ACC question which is mostly settled at "460-470", is the base piercing resistance for Real Raid Bosses.

Random mobs I tested on while leveling had like 20-50% inherent pierce resistance (didn't do enough testing to narrow it down, but it was clearly more than 0, because DE consistently gave more than a 10% damage boost).


Anyone know of any party-relevant damage buffs off the top of their head? Because if there are none then I can lame out some primals and just do damage tests while everyone else actually tries to kill the boss.

I dont think this game has many. Scholars can give us a skill speed buff
we give piercing resist debuff
warriors give slash resist debuff
monks give crush resist debuff

i think that may be it. I was under the impression (not all that much testing ill admit, but it seemed consistent) that all enemies have 0% pierce resist, so taking them to -10 gives us ~11.11(repeating) more damage to them with our piercing attacks

It may be different for different mobs or something. The last time I attempted to test (and this was awhile back), I used a 100 potency flubbed ID and it was netting around 50 damage without DE, and 58 or so with. That's a clean 16% damage increase which would require a base resist of ~37%. That said, RNG is a factor and I didn't do any extensive testing (because it wasn't worth the time if bosses may have different resists).

Edit: as a minor aside, a -10% additive resist debuff on 0% base resist would add 10% damage. 100 base damage - 0% * 100 versus 100 base - (-10%)*100 ... although who knows how it's calculated in detail; those are just assumptions.

hmm, i guess my results would moreso be them having a "100 resist" (not 100%) and by decreasing it to 90 you get my 100 base damage and their 90 resist to my damage being 100/90 = 1.11

Only since i know you played the game, do you remember the formula for traverse strike from warriors in tera? It worked similar where it gave a bigger bonus than expected because it was lowering their resist as opposed to buffing your own. I believe in tera everyone had the same base resist in PvE.

My test were against dummies, and a 45 rabit creature when i was 45. So nothing like a demi god, its easy to believe they would have more base resistance.

I vaaaagggguely remember Traverse Strike but never ran many numbers on Warriors, so I don't remember. But yeah, lowering resists where they already exist is usually pretty potent.

Wtb DAOC Darkcarver gg, best example ever.

Why am i not shocked in the least youre a fellow DAoC player

Im gonna say you were Mid though, which means we were likely never allies

Midzerg4lyfe.

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Originally Posted by Windrunner

None of the Job skills are overwhelmingly powerful and the Dragoon ones are no exception. Jump is part of the rotation however as it's off the GCD and deals signifigant damage. Having gap closers and an escape are also great for disconnects and melee survivability. However my biggest issue is the cooldown times on everything except Jump.

My one other gripe is the lack of iframes or damagr reduction during Jumps. They are such prolific abilities in the FF universe and XIV's version is neutered to the point of frustration. Reducing the CDs and adding a reduced damage taken or invincibility frame to them would make them fantastic.

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While I'll admit Jumps are "kind of" lackluster, their damage is hardly a fault. Considering they're off cooldown, I'll take a 900~1000 damage jump any day of the week in between my True Thrust combo.

hm, didn't see anywhere else for this but, what does everyone have in mind for their endgame "bis" gear?

http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/2180/Dragoon-Best-in-Slot

this is what i ended up coming up with. seems like an unreasonable amount of coil and rng, but yeah.. this should be 470 acc, 465 if you decide to use mythology necklace for +5 crit -5 acc (depending on if coil needs more than 465 or not)

to be honest, it's probably better to just plan your endgame gearset around your drops and spend mythology accordingly to just barely meet acc requirement while prioritizing det>crit>ss

in regards to contribution to DRG rotations - generally i have an issue with clipping chaos thrust. basically, if i apply a buff chaos thrust, in most rotations there will be 1-2s left on it before reapplication, and of course you can't overwrite a stronger buffed DoT with a weaker one. it's quite annoying @@

this is awesome rotation explanation. for almost DRG outside there already now how to rotate these skill, but this write is make my eyes open wider. good job!!

assuming 470 is the required accuracy rating (though this isn't necessarily decided yet). if we assume each point of accuracy gives the exact same value of hit. then a single point of accuracy would be worth .212766% chance to hit. this actually makes it slightly worse then determination if we assume that each ability hits on its own. however, missing an ability breaks the rotation, and really messes up a lot, so it should be prioritized. but for straight piece by piece comparison this is probably fair a good enough number to use until the impact of broken rotations can actually be calculated.

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Originally Posted by himehime

in regards to contribution to DRG rotations - generally i have an issue with clipping chaos thrust. basically, if i apply a buff chaos thrust, in most rotations there will be 1-2s left on it before reapplication, and of course you can't overwrite a stronger buffed DoT with a weaker one. it's quite annoying @@

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Aha, that's what it was. I kept noticing that once in awhile my CT was not applying as I expected and I forgot about that. How obnoxious. Have to inject a stray GCD after popping the buffed CT. May have to pick up Fracture ^_^.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Aha, that's what it was. I kept noticing that once in awhile my CT was not applying as I expected and I forgot about that. How obnoxious. Have to inject a stray GCD after popping the buffed CT. May have to pick up Fracture ^_^.

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I was wondering why this never happens to me.

It's because I use Fracture. ;)

Hrm... If you need a stray GCD you might want to look at either Fracture or actually, if the boss isn't resistant, Feint.
Feint has a nice 20% slow debuff that is very helpful for your tank and also slows down move chargeups. Given your DPS might be more important but I like having chances to use Feint and help alleviate healer and tank lives.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Hrm... If you need a stray GCD you might want to look at either Fracture or actually, if the boss isn't resistant, Feint.
Feint has a nice 20% slow debuff that is very helpful for your tank and also slows down move chargeups. Given your DPS might be more important but I like having chances to use Feint and help alleviate healer and tank lives.

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Its rare that Feint actually works on endgame bosses these days, but it does work on one specific one that makes the fight feel easier (Garuda HM + her adds). Titan and Ifrit are immune to it I believe, since they have a specific pattern rotation that they follow.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Aha, that's what it was. I kept noticing that once in awhile my CT was not applying as I expected and I forgot about that. How obnoxious. Have to inject a stray GCD after popping the buffed CT. May have to pick up Fracture ^_^.

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I've been using two alternate rotations to avoid clipping buffed CTs depending on the fight. I've been meaning to post about the DoT clipping issue (re: our earlier discussion on pg. 8 about the same problem), but I haven't had the time yet. Generally the default Fracture rotation is fine in ~80-90% of fights since movement + jumps will prevent the 2nd CT DoT from clipping (you don't have to worry about the 1st clipping the 2nd as you rotate around since it's a >12 ability gap). Here's the original rotation again for reference:

HFP-IDC-TTT-HFP-TTT-IDC-HFP-TTT-TTT

The problem arises on more static fights due to less movement and extra skill speed. With a 2.4 GCD, you'll never clip Phlebotomize or Fracture (until we hit a 2.37 GCD) because you cannot make up a full second of DoT duration over 8 moves because you're only saving 0.8s (2.5*8-2.4*8). However, the gap between CTs is longer (12 abilities), during which you will save a full second of DoT duration, so you'll generally clip your CT dots by a full second if you're using 12 ability gaps. This is further exacerbated by the "snapshot" method of DoT application. The snapshot occurs as soon as you cast the ability, but the actual application of the DoT doesn't occur for about 0.5-1s after you cast the ability. So the application of your snapshotted unbuffed 2nd CT actually comes almost 2s earlier than the buffed 1st CT.

To account for this you want a rotation that extends the gap between CT applications to 13 abilities (this sucks for Disembowel because you want a 12 ability gap for it, but a 13 ability gap for CT). This doesn't change the default rotation too much since it already operated on 9 ability gaps between HT's and only had one CT with a 12 ability gap. To create the 13s gaps, I use this rotation:

HF-IDC-P-TTT-HF-TTT-P-IDC-HF-TTT-P-TTT

This is effectively the exact same as the original Fracture rotation. You're still casting HT/F/P every 9th ability, and you use 3 of each in a full 27-move rotation. But, the movement of the 1st Phlebotomize to follow the first IDC creates the 1st 13 ability gap that you were previously missing, but it also reduces the 2nd gap to 14 abilities (as it was 15 before). The downside is your DoTs get rolling much later, so its worse if your rotation breaks earlier. If, on the other hand, you liked leaving Fracture out and using the IDC anchored rotation to hit your HT buffs and Phlebotomize's on the 8th ability, but still want to maintain the 13 ability gaps between CT's you can use this:

IDC-HP-TTT-TTT-HP-IDC-TTT-HP-TTT-TTT

Cutting off the final TTT would be a little nicer since it would allow you to rotate back to a perfect 8-ability gap between the final and initial HT buff, but it would also clip the IDC pretty badly as that would be only an 11 ability gap between CT's. You could interleave Fracture, but this would cost you the 8 ability gaps between HTs and Phlebotomize throughout the rest of the rotation. I chose to use an extra TTT instead of interleaving two Fractures since it keeps the TP cost down (one of the primary benefits of this rotation) and you get about the same buff durations from just using the final TTT. Also, worrying about coming back to the start of a rotation is not as critical since you'll generally only get through the rotation once on almost every fight in the game due to movement.

I want to be clear on two points for the original rotation. 1) It generally doesn't matter if there is a good amount of movement. Any movement essentially negates the single clipped CT as it will make up the 2 extra seconds you needed. 2) Jumps alone do not fix the CT clipping problem. While Jumps do add a little extra time to a rotation, they do not add nearly enough, and don't cool down quickly enough, to be a reliable means of preventing clipping without some help from movement.

EDIT: I'll actually probably just copy-paste the above into the guide later unless we want to make any significant changes

Generally speaking, clipping the CT itself is not a problem. The problem is when the first one is buffed and the second won't apply at all -- this will only occur every BFB cycle. Adding any GCD to the "IDC" rotation lowers the base DPS -- the only purpose here is to make sure the CT sticks.

For the H IDC P TTT H TTT // P IDC H TTT P TTT rotation, you only need to inject 1 Fracture (or any GCD attack) like so:

H IDC F P TTT H TTT // P IDC H TTT P TTT

That will delay the unbuffed CT by 1 GCD so that it sticks properly, and it only needs to be done once every 80s (or however often you are using BFB in the fight).

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IDC-HP-TTT-TTT-HP-IDC-TTT-HP-TTT-TTT

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I re-wrote this to get a better handle on it:

HP IDC TTT
HP TTT TTT IDC
HP TTT TTT

It's similar in approach to the original HFP rotation:

HFP IDC TTT
HFP TTT IDC
HFP TTT TTT

Except it uses the second TTT on the second row to space out the overall sequence, instead of Fracture on each row. Note: this "HP-based no-Fracture staggered IDC" rotation models for higher PPS (125) than the prior HFP rotation (124.2), but less than the "IDC" rotation (126.7). The IDC rotation with 1 injected Fracture rates at 126.3 (to solve the BFB CT clipping). The IDC rotation with a Fracture every IDC is 125.9.

Edit: Checked

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HF-IDC-P-TTT-HF-TTT-P-IDC-HF-TTT-P-TTT

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And that is 124.8. The staggered H/P give slightly better uptime for the various buffs.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Generally speaking, clipping the CT itself is not a problem. The problem is when the first one is buffed and the second won't apply at all -- this will only occur every BFB cycle. Adding any GCD to the "IDC" rotation lowers the base DPS -- the only purpose here is to make sure the CT sticks.

For the H IDC P TTT H TTT // P IDC H TTT P TTT rotation, you only need to inject 1 Fracture (or any GCD attack) like so:

H IDC F P TTT H TTT // P IDC H TTT P TTT

That will delay the unbuffed CT by 1 GCD so that it sticks properly, and it only needs to be done once every 80s (or however often you are using BFB in the fight).

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IR also causes DoT clipping. This rotation also increases the gaps between the initial HTs by an extra GCD as well, and you also don't get either of your DoTs started until after your first four abilites, which can really hurt you if you have to disconnect early. You also still have a 12 ability gap between the final and initial CTs, this isn't as big of a problem though.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I re-wrote this to get a better handle on it:

HP IDC TTT
HP TTT TTT IDC
HP TTT TTT

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This has extended the gap between the 2nd and 3rd H/P to 11 abilities, costing you an added 2 GCDs where both HT and Phlebotomize are missing.

Just tested it, you cannot replace an IR DoT with a non IR DoT.