So, when is VPR getting nerfs? (Frontline)

But this sentence means that every job would be broken in the hands of someone who plays it, but the jobs which can be abused more (like Viper for example in this case) would be much more broken
I still dont see how Reaper is broken if you leave his LB out, also why Viper can be broken without his LB if no class wastes their LB to punish them while in scales
For me absorbing/tanking damage is very important if you fight with lots of people, because if you absorb the damage that means, they won't get it and can focus more on attacking the other team, atleast thats what makes the most sense to me

VPR is more predictable in what they would be likely to do, the average player tends to make the same skill rotation when engaging enemies, and if they're crowd diving they are hard countered by Monk LB anyway, at which point their survival chance depends on if the enemy dogpiles them or if they are being babysat by an AST, BRD, PLD etc.

RPRs that know how to play can setup 30yalm escapes before they even engage, VPR is entirely reliant on nearby allies or enemies in order to crowd surf for escapes, turtling with the counter attack for lifesteal does at the very least extend their ability to survive for longer.

Ive done FL for dailies not to play it all the time, but most times Ive seen tons of people hitting into the VPR nobody uses LB on them and then they get overrolled by the opponents team
It may be RNG at what team you're being added VS who you are fighting but you cant stop random casual people from being in your team or opponents and thats where it happens mostly I guess
If everyone was skilled then Viper wouldnt be a problem thats where I agree but that wont happen, because you cant stop casual players from queue into the mode
Ive also never seen a good RPR on my matches, looking at the statistics in the end

Because there are plenty of VPRs who can't get anything out of that job. It's only really problematic with players who know how to play it. And the same could be said about any job. Have you ever tried killing a SGE who knows what they are doing? How about a GNB? A RPR? They are harder for me to kill, than a VPR.

VPR only absorbs while they are in scales yes? So, mark them. CC them before they get into scales. CC them after they come out of scales. LB them when they are in scales - yes, i know they get their scales sooner than you get LB, that's immaterial. If a VPR is so problematic that they are consistently diving on your alliance and doing damage, then yea, you focus them and save your LBs. MNK, NIN, DNC, RPR LBs used defensively to disrupt the VPR.

VPR isn't that scary. As others have said, they put up big numbers. A lot of it is inflated. But by themselves, they are not that tricky to deal with.

This is really just going around in circles. You have pvp veterans telling you, that they are not unstoppable. I don't know what else to tell you.

Yeah they aren't that popular, and gameplay wise VPR is braindead easy with high return compared to RPR. It's also why you see a lot of people on GNB as of late compared to the previous patches prior to the junction skills getting moved into skills by default.
Very easy, forgiving and can give high returns with little investment. The main drawback being melee so I'd say it's less common than the ranged players choices, I think the beginner friendly choice of ranged seems to be BRD because I seemed to always get matched with 6+ on my teams or people love it for their own reasons.

I used to play FL daily for several hours, just for love of the game but the skill gap between players across the board makes the quality of matches feel really different so all the matches can end up feeling like a coin-flip. For general daily roulette matches people can get away with so much more in regards to being greedy or forcing fights/catching people out of position. Not something I am hating on, just more of an observation.

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

Can you tell me how exactly Reaper is broken without his LB? What can he do against a horde of 30 people or more mass attacking him, while VPR can just go into scales
His quick escape is useless they will stun him and mass attack him until he dies

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Strength =/= How much of a piñata I can be before I break?

There are many variations of 'strength', with each class playing on it in a different way. The key part is seeing and knowing how to utilise your class' particular strength.

For VPR, it just happens to be tanking. There's no denying that VPR can tank well under very specific circumstances, but outside of those specific circumstances it will crumple just as quickly (if not faster) than many other classes. In most other aspects VPR relies heavily on it's team and really struggles to turn the tide of games solo:
- It relies on it's team's support to turn their attacks into kills/assists, with their damage being empty padding otherwise
- It often ends games with a higher death rate to most other classes, creating a very fine line between it being highly useful or a hindrance. It can be immensely useful if their team follow-up their attacks but, if they don't, it can become a feeder.
- It's key strength relies on the enemy team taking the bait. If they consistently don't, you become a decorative piece.

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

Can you tell me how exactly Reaper is broken without his LB?

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"Can you tell me how exactly VPR is broken without scales?"

You see how silly that sounds? You can't selectively choose to ignore particular skills of your own class, but blindly focus on one single skill to target another class.

RPR is more of a tactical player and, with Smite and Perfectio, a kill-farmer. The Hells Ingress teleport is not 'useless', in fact, I'd say it's one of the best quick-escapes of the game - no need to target a particular ally or map area beforehand, short CD, good distance, speed increase buff etc.
Throw yourself off cliff edges that would normally kill you and take no damage whatsoever. VPR has no such escape.

Just like RPR, VPR is commonly hit with stuns during escape. Their immunity doesn't carry beyond scales and they tend to receive a much heavier focus than RPR due to having just thrown themselves into the enemy moments before. So exactly the same issue you say you're experiencing as RPR is experienced as VPR.


RPR has:
- An excellent escape mechanism
- Can deal huge damage to large groups of enemies with Plentiful Harvest and LB
- Can quickly farm kills with Smite, Perfectio, and Death Warrant
- Has a good mix of ranged and melee attacks, enabling a flexible playstyle to adjust to changing circumstances
- Double-stacked ranged AoEs which provide HP regain. Both have a short CD helping to maintain HP beyond Recuperate and without needing to get too near to enemies to do it

And, of course, the LB which can be invaluable in turning the tide of challenging games and countering difficult teams; delaying your enemy to buy your team time to escape or attack and removing enemy Guard and character control.

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

Ive done FL for dailies not to play it all the time, but most times Ive seen tons of people hitting into the VPR nobody uses LB on them and then they get overrolled by the opponents team

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I can tell you it happens - A LOT. Any decent VPR gets practically every LB thrown at them, often in deadly combinations, either by intentional timing or pure bad luck (e.g. MNK LB and NIN LB)

Chances are you're just not noticing it. You may be distracted, have limited situational awareness yourself so you're not noticing it, or the VPR was deleted so fast that you didn’t notice exactly where they went etc.

It may also depend when you play. If you're queuing immediately upon reset to do your daily and then never again, of course you're going to be put with dreadful teams of rouletters who have no clue what they're doing - they're all there doing their daily like you.
If you queued at a different time of the day, like a few hours after reset (mid-to-late evening or midday the next day, for EU times) you're more likely to see more regulars in your games. The more you play, the more familiar those names will become and you'll have a better idea on who to look out for

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Ive also never seen a good RPR on my matches, looking at the statistics in the end

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Again, various reasons for that. One being, as melee, they're far less common than the hundreds of ranged players out there. Another being that it depends how you're filtering your statistics. By kills? By damage dealt? It's perfectly possible for a RPR to get great damage numbers, but its not a padding class. It’s strengths lie more in tactical defence/attack and securing those kills.

All of these points suggest you're looking at PvP through a very, very narrow window.

""Can you tell me how exactly VPR is broken without scales?"

You see how silly that sounds?"

I mean, I cannot really compare VPR scales that is not a LB with RPR LB, RPR has to wait a long time until he can use it, while VPR can fool around with scales almost every time


"
RPR has:
- An excellent escape mechanism"

Not really, all the time Ive seen RPR doing that in FL they just got melted down by the horde of people following them

You cant really tell me that every RPR player Ive seen is a bad player or something

or the class itself is just harder to use correctly, than some easy class like VPR or GNB

Im just talking from what Ive seen myself from the random matches Ive played

Dont know if its just me but I feel like its kinda unfair that you have to waste a LB on specific classes, just to take a VPR down

"All of these points suggest you're looking at PvP through a very, very narrow window."

Im looking at the PvP from my random matches Ive played where the teams are often completly random and I dont expect everyone to be a pro there

"- Can deal huge damage to large groups of enemies with Plentiful Harvest and LB
- Can quickly farm kills with Smite, Perfectio, and Death Warrant
- Has a good mix of ranged and melee attacks, enabling a flexible playstyle to adjust to changing circumstances
- Double-stacked ranged AoEs which provide HP regain. Both have a short CD helping to maintain HP beyond Recuperate and without needing to get too near to enemies to do it"

The main problem is, if the RPR has not his LB ready the class can be farmed really quick if tons of people decide to insta stunlock you and then their HP gets melted like cheese

I can only talk from my matches that Ive played and what Ive seen personally
and if matches are completly random, of course people tend to play the more easy classes to have more success, on some classes you have to rely on your team too much

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

You cant really tell me that every RPR player Ive seen is a bad player or something

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Depending on the hours that you queue into PvP it seems possible that is what you are witnessing, otherwise people having bad games.

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

Not really, all the time Ive seen RPR doing that in FL they just got melted down by the horde of people following them

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Scintilla has already provided a very succinct comparison between how RPR and VPR survive deal with engagements comfortably. If a person is being consistently melted on your team then that is a gameplay related issue for that player and the decisions they are making, or a lack of reaction from nearby allies.

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

Dont know if its just me but I feel like its kinda unfair that you have to waste a LB on specific classes, just to take a VPR down

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Well, you don't have to waste an LB and also, it's a PvP mode at the end of the day. If it results in a kill that is beneficial for the team's ability to complete objectives then it's not really a waste. It could be considered more wasteful to hold onto LBs for 7 minutes and not get any use out of them, this of course depends on your class and the alliance composition which may influence when it's going to be beneficial to align LBs with the abilities of other players.

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

The main problem is, if the RPR has not his LB ready the class can be farmed really quick if tons of people decide to insta stunlock you and then their HP gets melted like cheese

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Then that's also a different issue, catching a RPR who is at least somewhat aware of their surroundings can be like trying to grip a wet bar of soap even when they are being focused and no they do not even need their LB to escape moments where they are flanked, like Scintilla has mentioned you can us Ingress in a multitude of ways to slip out of danger in ways that a VPR cannot freely replicate.

Yesterday had a frontline match a group of Vipers attacked us, we tried to kill them, but their HP went down so slowly, they killed most of us.

Strong defense + high attack + sustain is just not fair.

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Originally Posted by Anwar

just started viper pvp a few days ago. Viper needs a nerf? you need the reaction time and situastional awarness of a military ai processor. And your so fragile a simple slap can kill you, your soul. and prevent you from reincarnating the next 5 lives over. Playing one so far has humiliated me so far i feel like the enemy's team little play toy every match. Just cc'ed to oblivion and nuked out of orbit. Huge win to viper players skilled at this omg almighty.

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spoken like a low ranking scrub in pvp naw im kidding it makes me wonder why they even buffed melee defense if your going to give melee an unkillable power house. It took me and 8 other people to kill one viper and we were all max on the what ever system its called u need to get 100. Viper is durable strong and fast. Yeah it needs a nerf. Honestly with how frontline treats its melee the defensive boost needs to be reduced as well its annoying how hard a melee class can be to fight against when they have so much defense. Either reduce the melee % defense or nerf viper pick on devs cause your treating viper like you did pictomnacer in pve

Very interesting report from Dank in another section of this forum:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ted-improperly.

I must admit I always thought that damage reduction and damage dealt % are multiplicative... But it appears they are additive for job modifiers.
I think this is relevant to the discussion of why high damage reduction modifier feels oppressive.

Classic CBU3

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

Very interesting report from Dank in another section of this forum:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ted-improperly.

I must admit I always thought that damage reduction and damage dealt % are multiplicative... But it appears they are additive for job modifiers.
I think this is relevant to the discussion of why high damage reduction modifier feels oppressive.

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It doesn't matter that it's additive instead of multiplicative.

Changing it to multiplicative would just mean they'll adjust the numbers to get the same results as where we are now.

The VPR thing is a compounding effect. Massive aoes mean you rack up dmg/kills and bh fast, the melee multipliers help scales massively on top. More than anything the cd reset is broken in fl where you consequently chain kills and build lb faster, so you can just snowball. Even more so with bravery and pocket support..

It's clearly tuned for CC but somehow they let it slip in FL.

I think I see who the screenshot is. But remove bravery, the pocket healers and what not and suddenly they very much fall in line quick.

the only way i could counter a viper is mch - team. Use the machinist if they have chains chain them down drop the turret on them then use bravery and go to town on them also recommend a healer to debuff their healing.

If you want to counter a VPR easily, use the jobs that hard counter it: RPR, MNK or better, DNC. But ofc you need a team that's not completely asleep.
Still, remove them out of their scales in the middle of your team and deny their backlash and they're dead in the water. It's no different than in CC with those jobs in particular, difference being that VPR is countered by literally everything in CC.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

And that's all i am after. 5/10% nerfs. Any more than that would be weird.
Glad we agree.

p.s. nerf bravery

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I feel seen.

No bravery nerf though...

RPR, MNK, or DNC should have a normal skill that can counter VPR, so they wouldn't have to waste their LB for it

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Originally Posted by Hazelx3

RPR, MNK, or DNC should have a normal skill that can counter VPR, so they wouldn't have to waste their LB for it

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'Waste their LB'? If VPR is such a key and dominating player as you suggest, it's hardly a waste? Not that those LBs are the only counter, of course, but they're the most straightforward and fool-proof ones.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

No bravery nerf though...

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Unfortunate that it can still be used to buff others, but no matter. Continue as we have been

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

'Waste their LB'? If VPR is such a key and dominating player as you suggest, it's hardly a waste? Not that those LBs are the only counter, of course, but they're the most straightforward and fool-proof ones.



Unfortunate that it can still be used to buff others, but no matter. Continue as we have been

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I meant, they could keep their LB but giving them another skill that can counter VPR with ease, so they won't have to use their LB for it.
One example if a match starts, VPR goes into scales and a Monk has a skill that can instantly counter the scales without waiting for his LB