2hr Abilites (Yes Please!)? or (No Thanks!)?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The problem with "2h" or "strong, one time" abilities is that it is quite hard if not impossible to balance and design content. I am sure FFXI players remember how 2h's of certain jobs were abused to make encounters easier, even in ways that the developers did not intend. If the devs have to design encounters with the use of 2h in mind, it also created an artificial timesink considering you 'need' to have the 2h to beat the content in the way the developers intended.

Thus I would like it if the "2h" of this game were a lot more situational and not nearly as strong as with some jobs in XI. Perhaps something along the lines of the weakest 2h's in XI would suffice to balance things out. I would not mind if they were simply "iconic" abilities that are not 'stronger' than any other ability, but simply have a longer cooldown.

Either way, whatever the developers decide to do, I hope they can avoid the problem of imbalance that comes as a side-effect with too strong abilities.

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No and 100X times no. This is essentially the problem with this game.You dont hinder fun to balance the game.
The game is super balanced right now because they followed that direction.Hell Ninja was NEVER used as invented, and was the most unique and fun job in ffxi. Make the game fun, THEN balance.Not following this idea is what made the FFXIV we currently have.

2hrs are a step in defining an actual role for each class, need to remove the physical level and just make classes the main focus.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

No and 100X times no. This is essentially the problem with this game.You dont hinder fun to balance the game.
The game is super balanced right now because they followed that direction.Hell Ninja was NEVER used as invented, and was the most unique and fun job in ffxi. Make the game fun, THEN balance.Not following this idea is what made the FFXIV we currently have.

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NIN in FFXIV was fun ... for NIN and sub-NIN. But that fun came at the detriment of other jobs. This detrimental effect got to the point that NIN became the most common melee job/sub-job, as other valid melee jobs were relegated to "lol<jobname>" . I'd personally like to avoid this game becoming "Final Fantasy Ninja Storm".

I understand the point being made. Ninja was probably a bad example to use, though. However the case, players should be able to have as much fun playing whatever they wish to play ... and be considered (more or less) just as useful as if they were playing as something else. So I am afraid I must disagree with the above posting.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

NIN in FFXIV was fun ... for NIN and sub-NIN. But that fun came at the detriment of other jobs. This detrimental effect got to the point that NIN became the most common melee job/sub-job, as other valid melee jobs were relegated to "lol<jobname>" . I'd personally like to avoid this game becoming "Final Fantasy Ninja Storm".

I understand the point being made. Ninja was probably a bad example to use, though. However the case, players should be able to have as much fun playing whatever they wish to play ... and be considered (more or less) just as useful as if they were playing as something else. So I am afraid I must disagree with the above posting.

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In FFXI every class have their place and usefulness.Saying to not go wild in classes design for fear to make some overpowered , really is what killed the game in the first place.If you dont have "fun " in a class then you change classes. wanting to be good at EVERYTHIN type of people is not helping this game a bit.

I agree Ninja was a bad example , but whatever people cry about nin this or that , it was FUN and UNIQUE.Dragoons or lolpups who say they were discriminated is because they deserved to be discriminated.I saw dragoons and lolpups pown anythin and be extremely overpowered in determinated fights.Everythin have their time and place.Making decisions solely on EXP parties is weak.The same applies to wanting a class that is best in everything.

SMN didnt really get into parties, dare you say SMN sucked.

edit; btw sorry if was a bit hard talking , no harm meant , so apologies if anything came across the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

You dont hinder fun to balance the game.

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Oh boy, the concept of "fun" has been officially cracked by Zkieve. The universal truth has been laid out in front of us. Stop whatever you're doing everyone, and especially you who tend to appreciate balanced and well designed content over unbalanced, "fun" content, stop having fun right this second. You heard me. What you are doing is not fun, regardless of what you might think or feel.

This is a historical day indeed, as today everyone can finally start having fun in the only possible way fun can be had- and all the inferior ways can be abolished once and for all. All this with the help of our friendly fellow Zkieve, who decided what fun is and what fun isn't. Objectively.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Oh boy, the concept of "fun" has been officially cracked by Zkieve. The universal truth has been laid out in front of us. Stop whatever you're doing everyone, and especially you who tend to appreciate balanced and well designed content over unbalanced, "fun" content, stop having fun right this second. You heard me. What you are doing is not fun, regardless of what you might think or feel.

This is a historical day indeed, as today everyone can finally start having fun in the only possible way fun can be had- and all the inferior ways can be abolished once and for all. All this with the help of our friendly fellow Zkieve, who decided what fun is and what fun isn't. Objectively.

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If the current game was "FUN" i dare to say a lot more people would be playing now , including myself . Instead of playing on the ps3 with all the time in the world to play in my day off.The people who find current ffxiv "fun" are to few to make a diference . So yes NIN--> anything in FFXIV.Feel free to call me off becouse i didnt say "in my opinion " at the end of the sentence.
How dare you zkieve.,

You know better from now on.

Why can't my fun float with yours?!

OUR VOICES WILL BE HEARD.

^ you win if you get reference.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

You know better from now on.

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Thinking your posts are facts and mine are opinions really dont make your point more valid.In fact , all you said was
----YOU is not = ALL---
While i was expecting a good debate about the subject at hand.
How dare you zkieve to want to chat to people instead of getting completely unrelated responses . The shame.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

If the current game was "FUN" i dare to say a lot more people would be playing now , including myself . Instead of playing on the ps3 with all the time in the world to play in my day off.The people who find current ffxiv "fun" are to few to make a diference . So yes NIN--> anything in FFXIV.Feel free to call me off becouse i didnt say "in my opinion " at the end of the sentence.
How dare you zkieve.,

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I'm not playing right now. I tried to replay XI, game is to perverse from what I wanted to play. So i'm trapped in a limbo between two games one ruining itself, and one with potential, not being able to play either haha. So I here you, there is no real "fun" in this game, and those who think this game is fun, like monotony, that can't be argued, there isn't anything in this game that doesn't repeat unimaginatively at this point. I'm okay for repeating concepts because that's what an MMO is, but in this game they didn't really care enough about what you were going to be doing everyday which is Guildleves and leveling. :/ I'm all for content, and from the devs posts it seems pretty balanced, so I wonder what everyone is bitching about.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

Thinking your posts are facts and mine are opinions really dont make your point more valid.

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No no, in my opinion you just cracked the ultimate secret. You should be out there making money right now, not browsing an internet forum.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

No no, in my opinion you just cracked the ultimate secret. You should be out there making money right now, not browsing an internet forum.

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Do you have anything to say or you feel better just trolling the subject ?

Well, you could have said something akin to "there is a point at which freedom shouldn't be sacrificed for balance, as in MMORPG's achieving balance is a lost cause due to too many variables in the first place".

But instead you decided to cite Rebecca Black. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Well, you could have said something akin to "there is a point at which freedom shouldn't be sacrificed for balance, as in MMORPG's achieving balance is a lost cause due to too many variables in the first place".

But instead you decided to cite Rebecca Black. Oh well.

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So basicly your saying my point is not wrong but you decide to troll me because i didnt use words of your liking ?
really can you discuss the subject at hand or do you insist to keep trolling me ?.I didnt use the sentence "in my opinion" because everything here are opinions .Is retarded to have to say it every time and even more retarded thinking something people might discuss on a matter of game development/direction is based on facts.

So here let me word it correctly for you "IN MY OPINION YOU ARE WRONG " becouse of what i said before.

There , feel better ?Now maybe you can discuss why you dont agree with me and we can both feel better at the end of the day without having to derail or go into E-thuging or insults.

One can argue (to some degree of success) that class/job balance should be a lower priority than class/job identity.

If a Marauder can do Red Lotus wielding an Axe and have the same damage effect as Lancer wielding a Spear ... is there really any practical difference between the Marauder and Lancer in combat?? Aren't they just doing the same thing with different tools??

But one could also argue that class/job balance and class/job identity are not mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. It is possible to achieve both to a high degree... however improbable or difficult that may be. I believe Naoki Yoshida and his team are attempting to do just that.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

One can argue (to some degree of success) that class/job balance should be a lower priority than class/job identity.

If a Marauder can do Red Lotus wielding an Axe and have the same damage effect as Lancer wielding a Spear ... is there really any practical difference between the Marauder and Lancer in combat?? Aren't they just doing the same thing with different tools??

But one could also argue that class/job balance and class/job identity are not mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. It is possible to achieve both to a high degree... however improbable or difficult that may be. I believe Naoki Yoshida and his team are attempting to do just that.

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Completely agree.But IMO(yes im looking at you Betel)the game should let players experience the classes as they are intended first , then balance it.In the end is a much better and enjoyable experience.FFXIV is the perfect example of doing it backwards.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Why can't my fun float with yours?!

OUR VOICES WILL BE HEARD.

^ you win if you get reference.

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Reminds me of the chappelle show episode with Charlie Murphy. I don't know if you are referring to that though.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

Reminds me of the chappelle show episode with Charlie Murphy. I don't know if you are referring to that though.

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We have a winner!~

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

We have a winner!~

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lol I love that show and even have the DVDs. Watched it so much that I remember most(if not all) of the lines.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

If a Marauder can do Red Lotus wielding an Axe and have the same damage effect as Lancer wielding a Spear ... is there really any practical difference between the Marauder and Lancer in combat?? Aren't they just doing the same thing with different tools??

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You could say that about any two melee jobs in FFXI. Hell, you could boil it down even further and say that any class who's primary job is damage dealing are "the same thing with different tools".

Yeah, there may not be a huge technical difference between the melee jobs in FFXIV, and I would like to see some unique skills... but what it boils down to is that their goal is the same.

I am strongly against 2 hours.

I am strongly against 4 hours.

I am strongly against 8 hours.

I am in favor a recast time that is gradually reduced by gaining levels in the appropriate job.

Yes, because <read pretty much any other "yes" post in this thread>.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am strongly love 2 hours.

I am strongly against 4 hours.

I am strongly against 8 hours.

I am in favor a recast time that is gradually reduced by gaining levels in the appropriate job.

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Fix it for you :)

this is turning into ff 11 -2

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Originally Posted by zoekwon

this is turning into ff 11 -2

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How so? just because we want something that can only be done every 2hour? it can be 30-1hour for all i care but just one awesome move that can save myself when the time needed something you know in the back of your mind. That you be like wait i have that there i use it when i really need it.

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Originally Posted by Reika

If my 2 hour is A transformation into a raging demon beast that brings doom and destruction to its surroundings, one-shotting all foes for 10 mins then yes. If my 2 hour is a increase in attack for 10 seconds then NO!

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* facepalm *

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You could say that about any two melee jobs in FFXI. Hell, you could boil it down even further and say that any class who's primary job is damage dealing are "the same thing with different tools".

Yeah, there may not be a huge technical difference between the melee jobs in FFXIV, and I would like to see some unique skills... but what it boils down to is that their goal is the same.

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That's why we need positioning-based battle system like the one we were sold on www.finalfantasyxiv.com which differentiated Lancer and Marauder according to their AoE and range etc.

2hr Abilities in FFXI for most classes were fairly useless, and the ones that weren't, were rarely if ever used because they were held in perpetual reserve for those just in case situations that rarely came up.

I agree with the OP that abilities like this would define the jobs a bit better, but I sure hope that if Square Enix goes that route that they make them more useful for "everyday" use, and maybe drop the timer to one hour so people wouldn't be so afraid to use them.

A lot of people replying to this thread didn't read the dev post, they aren't committed to a 2 hour time limit, they are committed to a person being able to use them once per the new dungeon system we're getting. So you'd enter a dungeon and they would only want you to be able to use this ability once while in the dungeon. SO if the time they settle on is 2 hours, or its 30 minutes, its whatever time is balanced for this dungeon content so people can only use it once per entrance to completion.

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Originally Posted by Zion_Cross

* facepalm *

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y u palm my face ; ;

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Originally Posted by thedevilsjester

2hr Abilities in FFXI for most classes were fairly useless, and the ones that weren't, were rarely if ever used because they were held in perpetual reserve for those just in case situations that rarely came up.

I agree with the OP that abilities like this would define the jobs a bit better, but I sure hope that if Square Enix goes that route that they make them more useful for "everyday" use, and maybe drop the timer to one hour so people wouldn't be so afraid to use them.

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U mean like warrior 2hour..... and theif 2hr..... and Rdm 2hr..... and monk 2hr.... and paladin 2hr...... and whm 2hr.....

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Originally Posted by Reika

U mean like warrior 2hour..... and theif 2hr..... and Rdm 2hr..... and monk 2hr.... and paladin 2hr...... and whm 2hr.....

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Yes exactly.

Let me reiterate my original point with a little more detail: In FFXI most 2hrs are useless. The ones that are not (like most of the ones you listed) are never used because everyone holds on to them "just in case". Because of their long recast, or in the case of the WHM the danger in using it unless the need is dire, they are typically held in reserve. In my four years of playing FFXI, not counting solo use (or an Astral Flow 'burn' party), I have seen maybe a total of fifteen uses of two hour abilities, all of which either didn't help (because it was a lost cause already), or helped but resulted in the death of the activator (usually in the case of a WHM) and didn't once end well.

That being said, if the idea is to do as zaviermhigo said:

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

So you'd enter a dungeon and they would only want you to be able to use this ability once while in the dungeon.

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Then that is an entirely different monster.

Calling the undeniably most powerful abilities in game "useless"... some people live to make sophistry. You're clearly describing your subjective opinion there and trying to pass it as a fact.

Well, in my case 2Hour abilities are what made my combat experience fun. High risk - high reward. I saved people with Invincible and Benediction, i impressed people with skillful usage of astral flow, i surprised them with the unexpected power of Chainspell. I always looked for thrills and 2Hours are what allowed me to find them in that game.

Obviously those who have the time of their life grinding levels all day won't find them useful.~

honestly for rdm's out there in the world, i never cared what you did as long as two conditions were met lol.

HASTE + DIA you can cure, you can melee, nuke. Most of my parties were done with rl friends and we had our own 3 brd's to abuse. So our pt's were always fun fast and free of boredom. We made some great mage friends also that loved coming out when our core group was busy irl.

I like the current everyone can do bits system, 2 hour ability might be a stretch though. maybe a 20 minute ability something way OP and fun to use on super bosses or something. Like it only becomes available when you are in the gravest of danger lol who knows. Thats just speculation. :P

First, we need content that would require is to USE something like a 2hr skill. Then we could talk about it.

I mean seriously, even the toughest NM now is just about tank and spank, you don't really need anything as powerful as that right now.

2 hr is too long. make it 1hr.

I really miss 2 hour abilities. Having that special something on a big big timer that could be used as an exit button when things got rough.

My vote is yes for 2H. No reasoning offered, nothing new to add.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Well, let's think about this for a few moments. Many of us like the idea of a class-exclusive "2HR-like" ability that can be used to save the party's bacon when an encounter gets out of hand.

But we have two healing classes ... Thaumaturge and Conjurer. Which class gets the exclusive & unique ability to heal all party members? Which one gets the exclusive & unique ability to cast lots of spells really fast with no regard to MP?

Those are two definitive party-bacon-saving abilities. But because the Armory System classes are non-specialized (by design), exclusively unique abilities are hard to make fit. We may have to wait for Yoshida-san's "Job System" before we see anything like FFXI 2HR abilities.

Unique class traits, instead of abilities, would work better with Armory Classes.

Unique "2HR-like" abilities would work better with Job Systems (titles, trees, specialization, etc ... whatever implementation).

But what if we "stacked" the two systems ... and with them the two "uniques".

A character equipped with a lance (i.e. a Lancer) and gets the "Piercing Charge" trait which allows her to hit multiple enemies in a straight line. Through a title, a specialization tree, or a Sorting Hat, that character also has the job "Berserker". Berserkers gets a unique "2HR-like" ability that works just like Mighty Strikes (maybe scaling to double, triple, & quadruple damage depending on level). Call it "Berserk Strikes".

So this character can combine her unique trait from her class, with her unique ability from her job to make a semi-unique "2HR-like" ability (Piercing Berserker Strike!!). With it, she can demolish a column of enemies when she activates it. In a party with Archers and/or Thaumaturges that can bind enemies in place, you can begin developing kiting tactics and tanking strategies for killing groups of enemies in various formations.

That's just off the top of my head, so please don't judge me too harshly.

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sounds ok, but I think this would only work after they seperate the classes to be more unique i hope thats what they are aiming for adding something simular to this only after they break up the hybrid armory system or branch it into more specified indivisual classes or wtf ever they have planned, then this type of unique class 2hrish~ ability would be nice, just my opinion though. how can u make a unique to class oriented ability when the classes are all mish mashed up idk, maybe its just me

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Originally Posted by Sojiro

I am absolutely for abilities to distinguish classes, but they don't need to have 2hr timers. Maybe 10-20 minutes if the ability is that super good, anything more than that is not necessary.

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Seconded. The timers were too long.

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Originally Posted by Maat

2hr abilities in XI were basically a special move that your job was given from the beginning. The benefits from the ability were so great that it took 2 hours before you could use it again. I am personally for a 2hr it wil help distinguish classes better. But I wanna know what every one thinks about it. So YES if you agree, and if NO explain why?

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No Thanks! ^^