G-give it Back T---T; !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Imagine a sequel where instead of just 1 person being unable to lie, the entire world was effected... >.>

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It exists. It's called The Invention of Lying. Basically the world doesn't even know lying is a thing and a guy "discovers" it and starts to use it to his advantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renalt

It exists. It's called The Invention of Lying. Basically the world doesn't even know lying is a thing and a guy "discovers" it and starts to use it to his advantage.

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Not quite. The scenario I was looking for was like liar lair where people lie for various reasons then suddenly cannot do so and say the truth when they attempt doing so... Imagine how fast the world would collapse when business leaders and politicians can't lie. :3

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Not quite. The scenario I was looking for was like liar lair where people lie for various reasons then suddenly cannot do so and say the truth when they attempt doing so... Imagine how fast the world would collapse when business leaders and politicians can't lie. :3

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Oh ok. I'll so some digging.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's almost like that many buttons is a ton to juggle for people who don't have a ton of dexterity. Also, more buttons doesn't equal deeper gameplay. Doesn't mean I want 5 buttons. But doesn't mean I want 48.


Also, claw-gripping a controller sounds horrible for comfort lol. Maybe it's just me getting older, or my bigger hands, but that makes by hands hurt like nothing else lol.

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Claw gripping is only necessary if one hasn't plotted out their button placement well. If you're going to be moving often while a certain ability is used or multiple abilities are used in tandem (ie a combo), make sure those are on the righthand face buttons so your left hand that controls your movement is unhindered by needing to gcd. You can gauge this also by making sure abilities you'll use frequently end up on right handed face buttons.

For instance, for me personally I have a bunch of 2 minute cooldowns, role actions, and auxiliary actions I won't regularly use (raise, for instance) on the d-pad since they won't see especially frequent use. Actions bound in order from most critical to least being: r2, l2, r2l2, l2r2, and tap-r1 (I personally don't use WXHB because I way too frequently accidentally engage it but it is super valuable too). I very rarely have to claw grip and even when I do its for moments at a time.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

https://i.ibb.co/GcmChZ6/Kaiten.png

Following video links of content creators regarding Kaiten

4-01-2022 - Hatsuka Raigeki - Thoughts Samurai Changes
4-02-2022 - Misshapen Chair - My Samurai 6.1 Changes Thoughts
4-05-2022 - Alninio - FFXIV - 6.1 NEW Samurai - Kaiten Is REMOVED
4-06-2022 - Misshapen Chair - I am the FFXIV Villain
4-10-2022 - Trinimmortal - How I feel about the samurai changes in 6.1...
4-11-2022 - Hatsuka Raigeki - FFXIV - Patch 6.1 Samurai Changes | What are you doing Square Enix?
4-11-2022 - SurfiePlays - My THOUGHTS On Samurai's Job 6.1 Changes | FFXIV Patch Notes
4-14-2022 - Ilya Dalamiq - Thoughts On The Samurai Changes | Patch 6.1 - FFXIV Endwalker
4-23-2022 - Trinimmortal - HAS ANYONE FOUND MY KAITEN - FFXIV Patch 6.1
8-04-2022 - Lucy Pyre - 3 FFXIV Jobs to Play if you HATE YOURSELF
8-20-2022 - Xenosys Vex - Xeno Rants About Crit & Direct Hit In Final Fantasy 14
8-25-2022 - Lucy Pyre - 3 FFXIV Jobs to Play if you HATE OTHER PEOPLE
8-07-2023 - Preach Gaming Cosplay reaction

Square asked us for Feedback? we gave it...
- In thread format
- In video format
- In meme-ing format
- In cosplay of all things at a fanfest...

" Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 Kaiten removal "

There are many more threads / videos / links and I probably missed... it's just a lot... bring it back...

https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png

= Bring Back Kaiten =

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I kneel at the sight of this gentleman.

Kai (10 characters)

How about bring back old Hagakure? :3

Gimme back Blank Shot. It was great for punting that one obnoxious caster mob back into the rest of the trash packs for easier AoE. Plus, MCH is the only aiming job without any kind of positioning skill. Bards can launch themselves away with Repelling Shot, Dancers get En Avant to dash around, let MCHs knock enemies around again.

https://i.ibb.co/Q669pdW/Live-Letter6-5.png

https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png

S-Surely

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Originally Posted by CaptJOLLY

How about bring back old Hagakure? :3

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I'd rather keep the flexibility of the current 5s CD Hagakure over an obligatory use-on-CD 40s one that conflicts with Tsubame-Gaeshi. But, I'd have its Kenki produced increase each time its opportunity cost does, so it retains roughly the same potency loss over time per Sen converted instead of increasingly becoming a trap button.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

https://i.ibb.co/Q669pdW/Live-Letter6-5.png

https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png

S-Surely

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My fingers and toes will be crossed for ya!

https://i.ibb.co/47Fdd3C/geger.jpg

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https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png

Is what I would say!
If I knew my Hissatsu: Kaiten is coming back this year!! mhm

Nah, leave it gone. Fix the other issues with the job first.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Nah, leave it gone. Fix the other issues with the job first.

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Fix SAM and every other job first* is a better sentence, before adding back anything

i dont really miss it, boring maintenance buff

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

i dont really miss it, boring maintenance buff

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What are you talking about? Kaiten wasn't a maintenance buff; it enhanced your next weaponskill.

sure but you only ever used it in in conjunction with higanbana and midare. i would consider that 'maintenance'. there was nothing particularly exciting or interesting going on when you hit kaiten. the only thing that its removal that bugs me is that using your gap closer is a dps gain but that can be resolved by simply making all gapclosers dps neutral

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

sure but you only ever used it in in conjunction with higanbana and midare. i would consider that 'maintenance'. there was nothing particularly exciting or interesting going on when you hit kaiten. the only thing that its removal that bugs me is that using your gap closer is a dps gain but that can be resolved by simply making all gapclosers dps neutral

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How exactly is using Gyoten/Yaten a DPS gain over Shinten when both have a potency per Kenki of 10? It's already DPS neutral. At most GCD manipulation using Enhanced Enpi can result to some optimization and maybe there is some cursed Kenki management during 2min windows using 10-kenki spenders, IF I had to guess.

But otherwise, I'm ok with the notion of making dashes DPS neutral when keeping their damage around - Warrior losing this in favour of Plunge copy #3 was heartbreaking for instance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

sure but you only ever used it in in conjunction with higanbana and midare. i would consider that 'maintenance'. there was nothing particularly exciting or interesting going on when you hit kaiten. the only thing that its removal that bugs me is that using your gap closer is a dps gain but that can be resolved by simply making all gapclosers dps neutral

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A maintenance buff is something you’re meant to maintain 100% uptime with, like Standard Step, Darkside, Twin Snakes, etc. Kaiten is the literal opposite of that, a single-use enhancement of another action, something more akin to Zoe which is only used for Pneuma, Barrage which is only used for Refulgent Arrow, etc. Kaiten is actually the most varied example because it was gated by a resource instead of a cooldown, giving you a lot more flexibility on its use.

If you’re disatisfied with the options you had with Kaiten, why not suggest adding more options for what to spend it on rather than request its removal? Isn’t that Yoshi P’s model of approaching changes? (Unless you’re a healer, tank, summoner, or samurai)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

A maintenance buff is something you’re meant to maintain 100% uptime with, like Standard Step, Darkside, Twin Snakes, etc. Kaiten is the literal opposite of that, a single-use enhancement of another action, something more akin to Zoe which is only used for Pneuma, Barrage which is only used for Refulgent Arrow, etc. Kaiten is actually the most varied example because it was gated by a resource instead of a cooldown, giving you a lot more flexibility on its use.

If you’re disatisfied with the options you had with Kaiten, why not suggest adding more options for what to spend it on rather than request its removal? Isn’t that Yoshi P’s model of approaching changes? (Unless you’re a healer, tank, summoner, or samurai)

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Pretty much spot on. What I and a handful others said about Kaiten is that we don't miss Kaiten in the form that we had it. Dark Arts from DRK was similarly functioning and even as an absolute Dark Arts enjoyer back in Stormblood, it was really shallow how much it did beyond the extra special Abyssal Drain.

Now, Kaiten with more viable uses than just Iaijutsu is absolutely one of the best ways to handle it. Possibly if actions had bonus effects that differ when Kaiten is deployed.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What are you talking about? Kaiten wasn't a maintenance buff; it enhanced your next weaponskill.

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Agreed, it wasn't.

Calling Hissatsu: Kaiten a Maintenance Buff there for Boring? is essentially using the repeated argument of " It's just a button you press every-time " and I can apply this logic to every Button we press every-time regardless of Job. Hell that would make Hissatsu: Shinten our OGCD Maintenance Filler as it has become 1/5th of our gameplay with Kaiten removal and I find that truly boring compared to managing both. Mowing down mobs with just Hissatsu: Kyuten equally became more boring.

My entire rotation as of post 6.08 has become Maintenance and they want to talk about a Maintenance buff... after 7 simplifications hit to my Job and people who argue that if Kaiten should be reinstated that it should only return when it's changed with extra function? is admirable. And I would have faith in that idea... If they could give an example that Square has done so in the recent past where they removed/reworked something and it returned in a more complex/fun to execute/brain provoking manner, packaged in a fun Animation, specially for my Samurai Job ( spoiler alert: for me they haven't ) mhm

They could fix the Bloat like fusing/merging/overlapping

• Senei and Guren
• Shinten and Kyuten
• Ikishoten and Ogi-Namikiri
• Shoha and Shoha II
• Iaijutsu and Tsubame

But they haven't when they said Button Bloat was the issue, only to change that narrative to Action Bloat which would mean our APM/CPM and that has also not changed. Then it was about DPS variance? but because we Shinten so much now and we can Direct/Crithit every single one of them? that still gives us that Variance that Kaiten removal had nothing to do with.

TLDR: SAM is still Fun, but many of us asking " Hissatsu: Kaiten " back or desiring it back is in a manner of saying? to ask Square very politely to not BS us with excuses that do not warrant nor justify the crappy changes they make. We're passionate about the gameplay and XIV still going into 2024... ergo? Give back my Kaiten

https://i.ibb.co/89DQLn1/Bignodders.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

But they haven't when they said Button Bloat was the issue, only to change that narrative to Action Bloat which would mean our APM/CPM and that has also not changed.

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Not a defense of removing Kaiten, but...

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed", rather than its changing what ought be done before or after, and/or is necessarily constrained to a particular bundle that would, again, otherwise function identically even without it.

Which, Kaiten was... in itself. Its only claim to anything than bloat more was due to its gauge cost.

That, however, is not to say that bloat is never appreciable. People are free to like their woosh-woosh-wish animation even if it saw zero use outside of Iaijutsu and changed absolutely nothing about when and how Iaijutsu should be used.

Action bloat wasn't a sufficient reason to remove it, imo, but their reasoning does actually hold water. Remember, DRG's old Power Surge (90s CD meant to be used with Jump) was removed under the same rationale. Look at it from that angle, and it makes a lot more sense.

The problem is the narrowness of their view, as --again-- there was also the matter of how its costs interacted with other costs, and none of that impact was replaced nor reinvigorated in Kaiten's absence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not a defense of removing Kaiten, but...

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed", rather than its changing what ought be done before or after, and/or is necessarily constrained to a particular bundle that would, again, otherwise function identically even without it.

Which, Kaiten was... in itself. Its only claim to anything than bloat more was due to its gauge cost.

That, however, is not to say that bloat is never appreciable. People are free to like their woosh-woosh-wish animation even if it saw zero use outside of Iaijutsu and changed absolutely nothing about when and how Iaijutsu should be used.

Action bloat wasn't a sufficient reason to remove it, imo, but their reasoning does actually hold water. Remember, DRG's old Power Surge (90s CD meant to be used with Jump) was removed under the same rationale. Look at it from that angle, and it makes a lot more sense.

The problem is the narrowness of their view, as --again-- there was also the matter of how its costs interacted with other costs, and none of that impact was replaced nor reinvigorated in Kaiten's absence.

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What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

Honestly, I'm not sure Toxicon is crap, so long as one thinks there should be damage-refunding (only) for certain heals. It does more or less what you'd expect: softens the cost of shielding, while thereby further punishing any at-cost sustain that is not a shield.

I just think the (lack of) shield-stacking functionality is crap, and the lack of any other way to generate Addersting seems a bit of a waste (even if it were as simple as generating a stack every 20s passively, akin to Addersgall).

Had I my druthers, sure, I'd tear the mechanic out root and stem and replace it and its surroundings entirely, but...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

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because monk was a steaming pile of garbage up until the rework which made it halfway decent. even better was that before 5.4 more people played blue mage than it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Honestly, I'm not sure Toxicon is crap, so long as one thinks there should be damage-refunding (only) for certain heals. It does more or less what you'd expect: softens the cost of shielding, while thereby further punishing any at-cost sustain that is not a shield.

I just think the (lack of) shield-stacking functionality is crap, and the lack of any other way to generate Addersting seems a bit of a waste (even if it were as simple as generating a stack every 20s passively, akin to Addersgall).

Had I my druthers, sure, I'd tear the mechanic out root and stem and replace it and its surroundings entirely, but...

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But it doesn't soften the cost of shielding. I'll hide this since it's off topic...

Dosis + Dosis + Dosis = 990 Potency

Dosis + Barrier + Toxikon = 660 Potency

Dosis + Nothing + Dosis = 660 Potency

The only value Toxikon is trying to offer you is mobility, but let's analyze that for a moment. How much damage does Toxikon normally earn you that you would otherwise lose in any given example of content? What percentage of your total DPS is that? What percentage of the boss' HP is that? What does Toxikon actually accomplish for you?

I took a look at some examples of Sage players in Savage to gauge how much Toxikon offered them. Here's the results:
Sage #1: 1.56% - 3 casts
Sage #2: 1.32% - 3 casts
Sage #3: 1.05% - 3 casts
Sage #4: 1.56% - 4 casts
Sage #5: 1.23% - 3 casts

All but one of these Sages only cast Toxikon 3 times, the amount that you are given for free. And you have to ask the question, were those Toxikons necessary? Could each of those Sages have cast something else instead, such as using a Phlegma charge that was otherwise not important for the buff window, refreshing their DOT, or simply slidecasting Dosis? Even if those Toxikon casts were the only way of dealing damage, would each cast otherwise have resulted in a full loss of 2.5 seconds? So I ask again, what value does Toxikon actually have? What tangible value does it provide? Because I see nothing. In fact, I would argue that Addersting and Toxikon are an even worse system than Stormblood lilies, or at least just as bad. Any semblence of it feeling less garbage is probably due to it seeming less jank than the lilies did since it's not involved with something very easy to overlook in the form of cooldown reduction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed"

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Well that's the logic behind every damage button, it's just there to be pressed be it a Combo Button / Another Fell Cleave / even Ley Lines / Another Glare / Reassembles / Truenorth - No matter the movement / Weaving intricacy / Resource Management / Slidecasting / Succession Combo you have to deal with or is tied to said skills or its weight impact to your rotation? they are ultimately all just buttons there " just to be pressed ".

Without Kaiten? I at least pressed my OGCD's with a little variety. Now? as example of my last P12S, my combo button Hakaze is casted 44 times while Shinten is at Nr1 casted 56 times... yet no one will question that this is just a button that's there " just to be pressed " no? it's that much more boring and less satisfying to execute which is subjective... all to remove Kaiten to fix well practically nothing.

But if were gonna use the logic of " its just another button you press every-time " I hope we don't apply logic just to Kaiten

Tangential...

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But it doesn't soften the cost of shielding.

<snip>

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Wait... that means you've greater assured offensive uptime despite movement and some additional cleave.... How is that not likely to help produce more damage in practice (i.e., in real content)? Its featural/contextual, but that's generally the more interesting means of aid (including the largest part of what Lilies+Misery offer over Glare spam and oGCD heals).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tangential...

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I'll move this conversation over to the 'go play ultimate' thread to avoid taking control of this one.

Button bloat.. high apm etc... brothers and sisters.... I miss my Samurai dopamine button!! I need the twirl to show that my next move is gonna hit harder, I need to appreciate how Samurai isn't a diet/knockoff stinger spammer with constant usage of Shinten, it is more tiresome seeing my character using that... you are not Dante!!!

What next? Samurai gets demonic powers in Dawntrail?

I wish ppl would drop this stupid meme. Its not funny anymore because its been beaten into the ground. Its 1 tiny aspect of ur entire kit that was changed along with other jobs with similar abilities. Just feels like Sam mains desperately trying to be center of attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

I wish ppl would drop this stupid meme. Its not funny anymore because its been beaten into the ground. Its 1 tiny aspect of ur entire kit that was changed along with other jobs with similar abilities. Just feels like Sam mains desperately trying to be center of attention.

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for once I'll agree with you tbh, but OP has made this topic their personality at this point and they wont let it go

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

I wish ppl would drop this stupid meme. Its not funny anymore because its been beaten into the ground. Its 1 tiny aspect of ur entire kit that was changed along with other jobs with similar abilities. Just feels like Sam mains desperately trying to be center of attention.

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Rules for thee, not for me I guess: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...you-don-t-like

Even more hilarious is all your doomposting is for "1 tiny aspect" of the game every time, so I guess hypocrisy just runs deep in here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

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So, my issue with kaiten post 6.0 was the frequency it had to be used in the opener and in burst windows. This part tends to be ignored, but with the addition of namikiri, you had to use kaiten 3 times in quick secession, while also using your other ogcds. This was a lot of button presses in those phases and it was much easier to flub vs the 5.x burst phases.

This is one of the reasons why I've consistently said namikiri was one of the worst things added to the job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

I wish ppl would drop this stupid meme. Its not funny anymore because its been beaten into the ground. Its 1 tiny aspect of ur entire kit that was changed along with other jobs with similar abilities. Just feels like Sam mains desperately trying to be center of attention.

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If the Viera/Hrothgar/MSQ/Ultimate Healer threads can go for hundreds of pages why can't the Kaiten thread?

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

If the Viera/Hrothgar/MSQ/Ultimate Healer threads can go for hundreds of pages why can't the Kaiten thread?

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It’s all about perspective. If you agree with a topic, then it’s a valid, healthy suggestion or piece of criticism. If you don’t agree with a topic, then it’s toxic whining from people who just seek attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

I wish ppl would drop this stupid meme.

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...edfd862ff6721&

for solidarity
guess im going to start trying to feel badass
every time fight of flight makes me spin sword around

guess id be bummed if they took fof away. maybe?
actually probably not too much

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

I wish ppl would drop this stupid meme. Its not funny anymore because its been beaten into the ground. Its 1 tiny aspect of ur entire kit that was changed along with other jobs with similar abilities. Just feels like Sam mains desperately trying to be center of attention.

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I have one thing to say and it's : Amen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

Rules for thee, not for me I guess: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...you-don-t-like

Even more hilarious is all your doomposting is for "1 tiny aspect" of the game every time, so I guess hypocrisy just runs deep in here.

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You should actually read the text not just the title. I don't even see the point in elaborating tbh cause ur just gona hear wat u wanna hear. But it's nothing like some of these other memes. It really is just getting soo damn stale now. I think the Sam's who had a legitimate good case for return of kaiten are loosing the larger support because they can't let this go. Also the things wrong with this game I'm talking about are not 1 tiny aspect. This games playerbase is an estimate daily 1.8mil. Users putting it below every other major mmo. All of the stats are showing decline since 6.1 and player dissatisfaction is at an all time High. If kaitens removal simulated that I'd be impressed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It’s all about perspective. If you agree with a topic, then it’s a valid, healthy suggestion or piece of criticism. If you don’t agree with a topic, then it’s toxic whining from people who just seek attention.

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.now ur just patronising. There isn't any good substance to why bringing it back is beneficial for the game. Nobody's saying ur being toxic but beating a dead horse is still beating a dead horse. Ppl are loosing interest and the meme just isn't funny anymore its annoying