If you continue to dumb down the game, you will lose half your player base

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Pffffffffffffffff! So am not the only one who also maybe perhaps occasionally searches the publically available repository of manually compiled spread sheet data. Sometimes I wish I did not.. morbid curiosity hurts..

Not one single fight or flight cast. Request a cat straaaaaiiiight into Confetti doors yummy.

It is always those who refuse to put effort who are the most surprised when the seven other people are sick of having back problems. The same talking heads with the same fricken bad takes one after the other. They are in every. single. one of these threads. Every single one.

No little Timmy if you were the majority no one would be allowed to drive cars anymore.

Seriously? You get fight or flight at level two. Maahhh.. How the heck do you not learn to use fight or flight? You cannot make a game for people like this because the medium was not designed for them. Sports are not for everyone and neither are video games and some are not suited to work with others in team environment.

Edit; Annnnnd no goring blade either. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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Request a cat had me wheezing :D
Never heard that one before, now I can never unsee it.

(And no, you are not alone with this. I tend to do it as well when something smells like someone has no clue what they're talking about and blaming others)

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is a meme of some sort? Because a solid gray background doesn't say anything, and you're attempt at ?humor? falls flat to those of us who don't follow.

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It’s meant to be a play on the whole “the website that shall not be named” ranking system. Basically, calling him a grey parse player. Just feeding into his stereotype, which is a little unsightly. I assume that is what it correlates to.

Was funny joke. Will steal.

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Originally Posted by Gunn-e

I'm curious about the OP's statement, as a relatively new player (started in Oct 2021). My experience with the whole thing, as I started on a Summoner, was that when I reached just around Shadowbringers or just a little bit before that, I started to really dislike Summoner. I started levelling other jobs because I found it overcomplicated. I don't have enough time to dedicate to the game to learn the somewhat complex mechanics of dungeons and raids AND a skills bar that's like the glossary of an encyclopedia. And then Endwalker dropped (I was still in Shadowbringers) and I hopped back on my Summoner and suddenly it's a love story. We got engaged and married before Endwalker and we're planning on our first kid. Anyways, jokes aside, while I can understand simplification is annoying for hardcore veterans an hardcore challenge-seekers, wouldn't it be ideal if the game offered a mix of complex jobs for the latter, and more simple ones for those who'd rather be a little more casual?

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Summoner was a mish mash from get go. In ARR it was a clone of scholar and scholar a clone if it. Summoner failed to meet expectations for quite some time due the "shared class" mentality. ShB summoner was very hard to master, but once you did it was really fun...you just needed to really focus and stick with it. Do I miss the old summoner....HELL NO. Old summoner was about as jank as you could get with the DOT uptime, the 4 minute rotation and not to mention it was NOT phase transition happy at all....I liked it...until I got to ex/savage content....then it was just infuriating to miss your phoenix phase due to a cutscene. So then you start delaying your summons......this is were people say it was "fun to optimize". No it wasn't. The reason it had such insanely high DPS in ShB was DUE to the jank of the job....it preformed great in more controlled scenario's.....but when you really needed it to preform....you were left thinking when you needed to cast more Ruins before the phase transition.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Pffffffffffffffff! So am not the only one who also maybe perhaps occasionally searches the publically available repository of manually compiled spread sheet data. Sometimes I wish I did not.. morbid curiosity hurts..

Not one single fight or flight cast. Request a cat straaaaaiiiight into Confetti doors yummy.

It is always those who refuse to put effort who are the most surprised when the seven other people are sick of having back problems. The same talking heads with the same fricken bad takes one after the other. They are in every. single. one of these threads. Every single one.

No little Timmy if you were the majority no one would be allowed to drive cars anymore.

Seriously? You get fight or flight at level two. Maahhh.. How the heck do you not learn to use fight or flight? You cannot make a game for people like this because the medium was not designed for them. Sports are not for everyone and neither are video games and some are not suited to work with others in team environment.

Edit; Annnnnd no goring blade either. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-this-duty

Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

snip

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The color is all I needed and as I looked through the rotation all I seen at some point was the programming breaking down. fast blade, fast blade, oh god fast blade, it's faster right? This reminds me of the time I caught a poor friend lagging out and there were at least 5 uncombo'd Coerthan Torments. I was honestly wondering if it were a lowkey secret message that she needed saving from something.

While I'm not a fan of too much dumbing down, trimming the fat is necessary for the longevity of any game like this.
But now "lose half the playerbase" based on what metric exactly?

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

And in wrath of the lich king most people never got farther than the lootship...the expansion which had greater player numbers than any mmo before or since. What's your point?

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Are you referring to most players getting to the midpoint of ICC? That is pretty damn good wouldn’t you think? I’m pretty sure most players at least got to see the Lich King fight if not clear it though. I did and my guild at the time definitely wasn’t the best on the server. You don’t see a difference between most players clearing every raid but the final one and most players not even clearing the first tier in TBC? I don’t think a lot of the player base even killed Prince or Nightbane back then.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Request a cat had me wheezing :D
Never heard that one before, now I can never unsee it.

(And no, you are not alone with this. I tend to do it as well when something smells like someone has no clue what they're talking about and blaming others)

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You are most welcome! Hearing the friends say that they are "Requesting a cat under trick attack" slays me eeeevery time. Pretty darn good way to learn that you should fit burst under raid buffs if you ask a Mia.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-this-duty

Enjoy.

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By the twelve.. Is there factory for these types? Allagan clones? They all seem to despise healers that deal damage. Bet they go into rage every time they see Glare being cast as Medica 2 is allowed to fall off for more then two milliseconds.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Played WoW, still regard TBC as one of the best early expansions. Vanilla WoW finished off with 8 million. The fact that TBC still gained over 3 million subs is absolutely insane. TBC had an easy entry into the raiding scene, starting off with the 10 man Karazhan. TBC's 25-man raids made it even easier for people to continue up the raid tiers which saw a lot of people raiding.

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I remember the road to getting keyed for T5 and T6 being an excruciating grindy undertaking. There is a reason you don’t see many Champion of the Naaru or Hand of A’dal titles in live. It was definitely an accomplishment.

Sadly there are more players who don't care how well they play than there are players who always do their best.

Take my hubby,
Ya he has cleared some EX content back in the day.
But if I want to clear content I can't run with him.

I meld, I use food.
He only melds after I tell him too.
He never uses food.

He just doesn't care and he is having fun playing the game the way he is playing it.
I'm having fun with the way I play it.

But I do EX content without him because he doesn't want to have to play perfectly.

So roulettes and whatnot we play together. Harder content we don't.

I guarantee all the people raging at "hardcore players" for wanting job complexity back have been called out for their poor performance in the past and are unable to let it go. This is like their Joker moment.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Sadly there are more players who don't care how well they play than there are players who always do their best.

Take my hubby,
Ya he has cleared some EX content back in the day.
But if I want to clear content I can't run with him.

I meld, I use food.
He only melds after I tell him too.
He never uses food.

He just doesn't care and he is having fun playing the game the way he is playing it.
I'm having fun with the way I play it.

But I do EX content without him because he doesn't want to have to play perfectly.

So roulettes and whatnot we play together. Harder content we don't.

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This is my point. Not everyone want's the same thing as the VERY few that engage in Savage/ultimate. Some are just content with having fun with small snippets of the game.

I like to run savage as the highest I would like to go. Ultimate doesn't appeal to me as I just don't want that kind of stress or focused dedication. Savage prog is the right amount of hardship I care to subject myself to. EX is fun as it's low level of prog with great way to ease yourself into savage.

Also to your point about food, materia, and I would also throw rotation in there...this is completely subjective. Your husband is right when he doesn't meld or use food as he is simply doing dungeons. SE knows that this content is face roll....so they basically don't make it hard. Criterion dungeons upcoming are for me....give me that harder experience for someone that plays at my level. I hate the duty finder dailies with a passion, but I need to run them because I need the tomes. I hate this. SE has listened and dared to add Unreal back in...criterion dungeons to give a greater challenge.

Kudos to your husband for just doing what makes him happy. That's what this game is about. Fun...and the amount of frustration you want to subject yourself to.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

It’s meant to be a play on the whole “the website that shall not be named” ranking system. Basically, calling him a grey parse player. Just feeding into his stereotype, which is a little unsightly. I assume that is what it correlates to.

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Unsightly, perhaps, but given some of his recent "contributions", no doubt well deserved.

Guys, I think we all know what the solution here is:

Introducing Patch 7.0

We have always said accessibility is our main goal here, and to that end we have made some changes. We hope you enjoy them! Oh and if you don't, please don't criticize our work because it upsets us and we won't listen anyway. K thx bye!

DPS it supposed to DAMAGE. Why do we have all these buttons that don't deal damage???

-DPS all just have one button called "Hurt Bad Man." It does lots of damage.

Healers are called healers for a reason. We shouldn't be making them deal damage!!!

-Healers now get one button called "Kiss Boo-Boos." This heals the whole party to full.

Tanks are supposed to tank stuff. Why do they have other things???

-Tanks now have one button called "No More Ouchies." Now you can focus on tanking!

Now we can get back to the one reason people play this game: to see the consistently-paced high quality story. That's right! You can now play parts of Heavensward and Shadowbringers over and over again!

If we learned one thing from our inspiration WoW, it's that pruning abilities and removing challenge makes for happier players! Because why earn a sense of accomplishment when you can just click one button???

To that end, we have also added "Visual Novel Mode." Gameplay still too hard for you? That's ok. With VNM, you can simply skip all the fights and watch them in cutscenes. You can probably tell that we have been moving in this direction from the amount of action that occurs in cutscenes in our "game", but we decided to really commit this expansion. Who wants to PLAY a game anyway!

Now the game is more accessible for everyone!

Just unsub like I did. This is the direction we are going, and the direction WoW went as well. For as much as Yoshi-P talks about not caring about monthly subs, he isn't in charge (BIG SHOCK). The executives at SE want money and they think the way to get it is doing this. Always more players. I've worked in gaming. You do what you can to make the game as good as you can, but when it runs this long with this kind of business model, this is an inevitability. If you like challenge, there is a universe of games out there for you. If you want to play with your friends, go play Remnant: From the Ashes for a challenge. This game isn't for us.

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Originally Posted by s1mulacrum

Guys, I think we all know what the solution here is:
-Tanks now have one button called "No More Ouchies." Now you can focus on tanking!

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"No More Ouchies" made me giggle out loud xD

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Unsightly, perhaps, but given some of his recent "contributions", no doubt well deserved.

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Yes, both are unsightly and unhealthy to contribution. Thing is the dude perpetuates the stereotype, and then you have people clever enough to try and conform to said stereotype. Personally, I wouldn’t exactly be surprised people holding a mindset against more complexities in the game when on several occasions the forums have used logs to try and discredit opinion, or just to borderline harass. But again, both are unsightly.

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Originally Posted by s1mulacrum

To that end, we have also added "Visual Novel Mode." Gameplay still too hard for you? That's ok. With VNM, you can simply skip all the fights and watch them in cutscenes. You can probably tell that we have been moving in this direction from the amount of action that occurs in cutscenes in our "game", but we decided to really commit this expansion. Who wants to PLAY a game anyway!

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This is literally going to happen before 6.5

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Yes, both are unsightly and unhealthy to contribution. Thing is the dude perpetuates the stereotype, and then you have people clever enough to try and conform to said stereotype. Personally, I wouldn’t exactly be surprised people holding a mindset against more complexities in the game when on several occasions the forums have used logs to try and discredit opinion, or just to borderline harass. But again, both are unsightly.

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People have been against anything they deem "difficult" since ARR. Look at how people refused to run Pharos Sirius until it got nerfed because it was "too hard", when all it required was for people to pay attention. The first boss was literally designed to teach people to not burn things down all the time, people failed it, and raged because they couldn't just focus the boss and have to kill adds. People got Steps of Faith nerfed because "doing the mechanics" was apparently too hard for people to do (the complaints about how long it takes to reset was valid though). People tried to get Final Steps of Faith nerfed because they felt it was too hard, and tried to do the same thing with Royal Menagerie. DRK in HW was "too hard" and the job got destroyed for it. The playerbase has a massive aversion to anything difficult at all. I know people who refused to run anything with the word "raid" in it until they were force to do Alliance Raids for the main story from 5.3 on.

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Originally Posted by s1mulacrum

Snip

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After reading the patch notes and indeed seeing it going the same direction as many other mmos, I am most likely going to unsub because I am not going to get invested in something that does not care about the people wishing to PLAY. They only care about the people wanting to experience the video game. Taking away skills, making classes boring because there were just too many people with bigger numbers than other people who do not even play anything past the story. Little Timmy wants to clear savage, so instead of making the fights easier for poor little Timmy they will make the class easier.

The real kicker is even when they make this game one button, those players still would not be able to play. It will be too stressful pushing that one button, so they will just make a Tell Tale replica so people can have their 'super kawaii uuuguu cat girl play through a story and look sexy and cool. Finally a custom final fantasy story just for me.' They will think. They will not even notice that the game was suppose to be an mmo. It was suppose to be a video game. And for people with legitimate disabilities an escape, a way to actually enjoy something. To press on beyond challenges. Their character doing things that they can not physically do irl. We get to watch as all of that is reduced to rubble because people want what they can't have. They will never be happy. I can't wait till what else is destroyed Remnant? How many years do we think we have before they migrate from here after realizing everyone they enjoyed tormenting moved to a different game. It is literally always the same.

Might go there anyway so I can actually play a video game and have fun. Is it legit or will it be another lost ark with pay to win micro transactions shoved up my rectum every two seconds?

It's a Souls-like game that has 4 player co-op. It isn't an MMO. Honestly I don't think MMOs can sustain challenging content given the nature of the beast. If you want challenge, your best bet is migrating to other game types or activities imo.

I feel like the issue is they're listening to people like that guy that said Elden Ring was garbage because it didn't let him select an "easy mode" difficulty causing the first boss to kill him in 5 seconds so it wasn't made for everyone and shouldn't exist. Some games benefit from the ability to select difficulties for player skill level accessibility but other games don't. In the case of MMO's I'm more inclined to say dumbing things down and making some things easier and other things ends up doing more harm than good. The reason being that it creates far too many situations in group content with other people where players become nothing but a hinderance or burden to the group because they were given a path to jump into that content without actually having to learn how to play the game, they haven't learned about game mechanics or markers, they haven't learned what their job's skills do, etc...

This just creates rifts in the player base resulting in segregation, pointless arguments, wasted time, and so on.

A majority of the nerfs done were to MSQ duties, many of them party duties tied into the MSQ others to specific solo duties or the later addition of people being able to just die immediately on a solo duty then choose "easy ignore any and all mechanics" mode. I personally don't agree with any of it as the duties nerfed weren't difficult to begin with and I feel the point of the MSQ should have been to develop the player so they're competent enough to do the other optional "endgame" content later. There are plenty of other game genre's and titles out there for players that want to play a game and finish it without actually learning how anything in the game works.

In short for the most part I feel like online titles like this game and other MMO's need to stick to making players learn the game to proceed and leave all the dumbing down and difficulty nerfing to offline game titles.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

This is literally going to happen before 6.5

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The funny thing is I don't even hate the idea of giving people this option for MSQ lol. I just hated that all of this "dumbing down" affects my and others' experience of the game and "high-level" content in particular. I think we just have to accept that this game isn't meant for hardcore players and move on. I do think these things will hurt the game in the long run like it did for WoW, but it is easy for devs to not see this if the changes are slow enough.

It reminds me of the boiled frog apologue or the Sorites Paradox.

"If you want a challenge play Ultimate" this is straight from the developer's mouth. Otherwise, the game has thrived for years being casual friendly. If you're bored and unhappy then switch games, there's tons of more challenging games out there and they aren't going to change what has been successful for them.

jokes on you i'm a filthy casual and i love these patches

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Originally Posted by D6Damager

"If you want a challenge play Ultimate" this is straight from the developer's mouth. Otherwise, the game has thrived for years being casual friendly. If you're bored and unhappy then switch games, there's tons of more challenging games out there and they aren't going to change what has been successful for them.

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Actually they had a formula that worked for both casual and non-casual alike. Jobs had skill cellings and skill floors. We got a balance of difficulty in the content as well across the board. Now that formula has been abandoned for short term gain.

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Originally Posted by D6Damager

"If you want a challenge play Ultimate" this is straight from the developer's mouth. Otherwise, the game has thrived for years being casual friendly. If you're bored and unhappy then switch games, there's tons of more challenging games out there and they aren't going to change what has been successful for them.

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I agree that this is what people should do, but it seems like you don't understand the point we are making while also making it for us. FFXIV got its big influx of subs from the WoW exodus. WoW lost subs in part by doing all of the things FFXIV is currently doing. If people do leave the game b/c of this pattern of changes (as we both suggest), then that shows that these decisions are making people leave. The OP's entire point is that SE will lose players, which is the opposite of successful.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Yes, both are unsightly and unhealthy to contribution. Thing is the dude perpetuates the stereotype, and then you have people clever enough to try and conform to said stereotype. Personally, I wouldn’t exactly be surprised people holding a mindset against more complexities in the game when on several occasions the forums have used logs to try and discredit opinion, or just to borderline harass. But again, both are unsightly.

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I'm not here for intelligent discussion, especially not with someone that can barely play their way out of a paper bag.

https://y.yarn.co/4a755c56-4f9c-40f7...08e3e_text.gif

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

I'm not here for intelligent discussion, especially not with someone that can barely play their way out of a paper bag.

https://y.yarn.co/4a755c56-4f9c-40f7...08e3e_text.gif

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But you will waste time on them, sound thinking there!

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Cause you have no clue how the silent majority feels about this clearly.

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You yourself have aboslutely no clue what the "silent majority" feels because they chose to be silent. Thus, their opinion could be anything. Their silence is on them and not relevant to anything discussed here. As you can see from the front page on the forum and also in a lot of threads on Reddit, the sentiments I have noted here are widely shared. Meanwhile, you're here belittling nonsense about some imagined disparity between minority and majority opinion that adds no value nor insight to the discussion at hand.

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Originally Posted by s1mulacrum

I agree that this is what people should do, but it seems like you don't understand the point we are making while also making it for us. FFXIV got its big influx of subs from the WoW exodus. WoW lost subs in part by doing all of the things FFXIV is currently doing. If people do leave the game b/c of this pattern of changes (as we both suggest), then that shows that these decisions are making people leave. The OP's entire point is that SE will lose players, which is the opposite of successful.

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I personally quit WoW (classic tbc), largely due to what was going on in the company. I didn't feel it was right for me to give money to a company that had a lot of bad corruption come out (and so quickly as it did). There are other reasons (like the game itself etc etc), but this was the main reason. I know of many others that quit for this reason. Also, seeing so many leave and try out other games. WoW was huge for so long and people were just used to playing it and not trying other games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by s1mulacrum

I agree that this is what people should do, but it seems like you don't understand the point we are making while also making it for us. FFXIV got its big influx of subs from the WoW exodus. WoW lost subs in part by doing all of the things FFXIV is currently doing. If people do leave the game b/c of this pattern of changes (as we both suggest), then that shows that these decisions are making people leave. The OP's entire point is that SE will lose players, which is the opposite of successful.

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The WoW exodus was caused by what Blizzard is currently doing on the inside of their company. I played Diablo 3 constantly, but stopped the second the news hit. I still miss playing it, but any company that does what Blizzard did does not deserve my time or money.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

But you will waste time on them, sound thinking there!

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I did say I'm not here for intelligent discussion :D no thinking necessary.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The WoW exodus was caused by what Blizzard is currently doing on the inside of their company. I played Diablo 3 constantly, but stopped the second the news hit. I still miss playing it, but any company that does what Blizzard did does not deserve my time or money.

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Originally Posted by Anemic

I personally quit WoW (classic tbc), largely due to what was going on in the company. I didn't feel it was right for me to give money to a company that had a lot of bad corruption come out (and so quickly as it did). There are other reasons (like the game itself etc etc), but this was the main reason. I know of many others that quit for this reason. Also, seeing so many leave and try out other games. WoW was huge for so long and people were just used to playing it and not trying other games.

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Most people did not quit playing blizzard games because of what they were doing internally, don't try to white knight yourself. You quit cause the games started sucking same as most people. Cause quitting the game makes no difference in what they are doing internally. And if you think that it makes a difference well your just wrong.

Now if you were a shareholder and you pulled back investments and stock, that would make a difference, but you aren't.

Less combat skills are great if the combat is fun. Fighting damage sponges is boring. Why do we need to do 50 skill rotations for one fate boss? Raise the boss defense or make him immune to damage as he performs unique mechanics the test the played skills
I would rather have a boss cast puzzles at me and die with one hit after solving the puzzle than a infinite sponge that casts brain dead mechanics.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Most people did not quit playing blizzard games because of what they were doing internally, don't try to white knight yourself. You quit cause the games started sucking same as most people. Cause quitting the game makes no difference in what they are doing internally. And if you think that it makes a difference well your just wrong.

Now if you were a shareholder and you pulled back investments and stock, that would make a difference, but you aren't.

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You are entirely wrong. In my own case; it was like 97% of the reason I quit playing the game. I was even excited for D2:r before all the corruption hit the news. Never ended up buying it or playing it.

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Originally Posted by Anemic

You are entirely wrong. In my own case; it was like 97% of the reason I quit playing the game. I was even excited for D2:r before all the corruption hit the news. Never ended up buying it or playing it.

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Same here, I was really looking forward to it when the news hit. Even with it having been on sale, I don't think I'll get it, I can't stomach the company Blizzard is now.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

WoW was at its height at the start of WotLK, but at the same time they started a new motto "Bring the player and not the class". They simplified classes, and homogenization across the board. They began trivializing non-raid content.

Blizzard stopped reporting subscriptions during WotLK, and the player base began to decline as the expansion grew older. Everything came to a head, and exploded in Blizzards face with the release of Cataclysm.

SE is just repeating history with Endwalker.

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Cataclysm people left because you could no longer aoe trash in dungeons. People didn’t want to slow down and sheep mobs and use sap again. Heroics were overturned for newly geared players. Loot was scarce too. People came back in MoP because they changed loot, reps, and the dungeons and added fun mechanics. Classes didn’t get gutted until Legion. Then in legion your complete class kit was locked behind a artifact grind and RNG legendary system. They took abilities classes/specs had before legion and made people earn them again. WoW has talents, specs, classes, borrowed power to balance too.

Ffxiv classes/jobs, even when you had to level other classes for viability like blm swiftcast, have never had the amount of balance issues or gutting WoW has every expansion. There also aren’t any unplayable jobs in ffxiv. WoW has specs that aren’t viable for endgame depending on the patch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Most people did not quit playing blizzard games because of what they were doing internally, don't try to white knight yourself. You quit cause the games started sucking same as most people. Cause quitting the game makes no difference in what they are doing internally. And if you think that it makes a difference well your just wrong.

Now if you were a shareholder and you pulled back investments and stock, that would make a difference, but you aren't.

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Meanwhile me: Doesn’t care about politics and happily bought diablo 3 and is having a blast with it.

If people stopped playing games made by shitty people or businesses, we wouldn’t have any games left to play. SE isn’t exempt from this either.

Every class plays braindead 1-2-3 button smashing that literally dulls your brain as you play.

I disagree with this "dulled brain" comment because we need easier combo actions in an environment where you have can't see mechanics and others that require muscle memory even normal dungeons in EW are stressful and never dull. I like all of the changes and it will cause a player base rise to even greater heights.