World of Warcraft died because the developers only catered to casuals and world prog

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

All WoW devs care about is their Twitter following and likes.

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With some of the things I've seen them say on Twitter I would argue that they don't care about that either. lol

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Originally Posted by PoeTato

The irony in OP’s post is that WoW is actually dying because it doesn’t cater enough to its casual players. Harder normal raids, too many grindy systems every new patch, not alt friendly… the list goes on.

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Yeah wow was built and thrived on its casual player base. It has never for one second been anything resembling a hardcore game. I do think it has more midcore content than ff, at least when I still played it in anything close to a serious way anyway. The endless m+ grinding for RNG gear stats and the changes that had basically no good rewards from casual (non rated) PvP were a big part of what made me lose interest in playing the game seriously (this was back before shadow lands mind... haven't played that at all). The godawful story, bizarre anti-flight crusade and a slew of other little changes all piled up to put the nail in the coffin for me.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

The endless m+ grinding for RNG gear stats...

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At least it is something repeatable with something to work towards. There is hardly any repeatable content in FFXIV and gear is practically meaningless outside of Ultimate patches.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

At least it is something repeatable with something to work towards. There is hardly any repeatable content in FFXIV and gear is practically meaningless outside of Ultimate patches.

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If Ultimate is your main or only concern, sure. There is also plenty of repeatable content in FF XIV. Could it use more? Yeah, probably. But it's still there.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

If Ultimate is your main or only concern, sure.

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You can complete savage with crafted gear. Gear progression only exists during Savage > Ultimate.

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There is also plenty of repeatable content in FF XIV. Could it use more? Yeah, probably. But it's still there.

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I thought it was clear since m+ part of endgame content. To make it clear, there is hardly any endgame repeatable content.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

At least it is something repeatable with something to work towards. There is hardly any repeatable content in FFXIV and gear is practically meaningless outside of Ultimate patches.

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I'd literally rather fly around collecting sightseeing logs than spam m+ until I'm ready to bodily throw Helya into the Maelstrom

Wow still the most successful western mmo
When did it die?

I think the biggest problem is that there is a perception of hard/grindy = fun and I don't believe that is true at all.

I think games that are accesible to everyone and bring in enjoyable features are fun and engaging. You start putting things that are too hard and too much of it and people will just not find it fun and leave. An example are mmos with open world PvP. Devs have come out and said that they don't want open world PvP in their game and that if they do, they would prefer to make completely seperate servers for it or bring in a flagging system because there are too many people that quit playing when they find out they arent as great as they think and/or get griefed and that player active count or sub count drops compared to non open-world pvp servers.

A game can have hard content but that should never be the main attraction. The fact that WoW got as succesful as they did was because of catering to casual.
WoW's downfall was the result of many bad practices and corporate greed. I also believe that Ion is contributing to its downfall aswell with his own bad decisions.
They fired many of their employees so CEO can claim record profits and get bonuses
Activision started pushing them to milk players for money with mobile games and other greedy features such as charging players to clone their characters from Vanilla wow to Burning Crusade
Catering to China despite all their human rights abuses and changing things in the game when all they really had to do was just edit the chinese version of the game instead of making those changes to all versions of the game.
Being unprofessional and bringing politics to the workplace and letting those devs unprofessionally attack those players like what they did with asmongold.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Yeah wow was built and thrived on its casual player base. It has never for one second been anything resembling a hardcore game. I do think it has more midcore content than ff, at least when I still played it in anything close to a serious way anyway. The endless m+ grinding for RNG gear stats and the changes that had basically no good rewards from casual (non rated) PvP were a big part of what made me lose interest in playing the game seriously (this was back before shadow lands mind... haven't played that at all). The godawful story, bizarre anti-flight crusade and a slew of other little changes all piled up to put the nail in the coffin for me.

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People have a short memory. World of Warcraft became insanely popular due to the fact it was geared towards more casuals. Pretty much hardcore players for years would sit in dying MMORPGS that would soon die or become free2play think Everquest, SWG, City of Heros and even FFXI (Which didn't die but due to the fact the Square allowed Tanka to have FFXIV to be built like FF11 this caused the game to fail and be shut down and remade).

Ghsotcrawler was very vocal during Wrath he did not like the fact it was becoming too easy and tried to make features to make the game harder like dual speccing but he was overruled but his design in CATA caused people to flee. It got to the point where during this time Hardcore Players starting, joining WoW during TBC and Wrath and those hardcore guilds had to announce like a scarlet letter they were a DKP Guild otherwise the server would black list them.

Really during CATA and finally the Panda expansion most of the casuals left and the developers started making the game more grindy and harder which now the game is a ghost town.

Also MMORPGs that implements the removal of the leveling system making sure all enemies are your level, making the game harder like Elder Scrolls, which also remade their game lost a good majority of their fanbase when they tried to make everything hard again.

Don't get me started on SWTOR that advertised itself as the WoW killer promising to be the most casual, friendly game, but during the launch they decided to shift towards the hardcore minority. It was a weird time because SWG players pretty much lived in a bubble and didn't understand the modern MMORPG etiquette like if your a DKP Guild you must announce yourself as such otherwise the guild will be mocked and shamed. The developers even paid to have Guild members of hardcore guilds flown to Bioware to hold a Guild Summit in which the developers pledged to these DKP Guilds to make the game even HARDER and never to release casual features like a party or raid finder and make it a TOS violation to go after members who complain about DKP Guilds.

Needless to say this caused the majority of staff at Bioware Austin including the Director to be fired after 2 million people instantly left and they implemented many casual features which they were slow to add to the point where you can be carried solo through any dungeon. Sadly the reputation of SWOTR never recovered.

Same thing happened with FFXIV which you can see the Documentary that Yoshi and many of the Square staff are in as they talk about how Tanka the Vile rebuffed everyone who wanted an easy game and the Hawaii shirt man (Former Director) also known as Nobuaki the insane made features the hardcore minority who prefers BDSM type of content where they must experience extreme pain and hardship and it punished anyone who played FFXIV 1.0 more then 5 hours a week and they could not progress any further but you could still delevel which pleased Tanka the Vile.

FINAL FANTASY XIV Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0yQKI7Yw4 (Part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoOI5R-6u8k (Part 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONT6fxiu9cw (Part 3)

Seriously, never make a game for the Hardcore Minority unless you do not mind it failing or not making any money.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

At least it is something repeatable with something to work towards. There is hardly any repeatable content in FFXIV and gear is practically meaningless outside of Ultimate patches.

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So this is where the Hardcore Minority doesn't comprehend the entire fanbase or understand the casuals or the majority of the people. Its sort of like how the hardcore minority doesn't understand why people don't like pain or BDSM. New Game + is there for people here for the story which is repeatable. Where literally you people get hung up on is, 'Where is the reward' or 'There is no reward and XP why would anyone play New Game+' its the way you people think like when your being whipped in a dungeon gaining pleasure from the pain. Most people don't see that as pleasure. For gaming your pleasure comes from 'the accomplishment' which is more akin to you all getting whipped and asking for more pain.

For the majority of people the story and the experience of replaying the story is the entire point. Of course you people will still get hung up over no experience or points or whatever, but that's not how most people think.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

So this is where the Hardcore Minority doesn't comprehend the entire fanbase or understand the casuals or the majority of the people. Its sort of like how the hardcore minority doesn't understand why people don't like pain or BDSM. New Game + is there for people here for the story which is repeatable. Where literally you people get hung up on is, 'Where is the reward' or 'There is no reward and XP why would anyone play New Game+' its the way you people think like when your being whipped in a dungeon gaining pleasure from the pain. Most people don't see that as pleasure. For gaming your pleasure comes from 'the accomplishment' which is more akin to you all getting whipped and asking for more pain.

For the majority of people the story and the experience of replaying the story is the entire point. Of course you people will still get hung up over no experience or points or whatever, but that's not how most people think.

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Of course I would be hung up on not getting experience points or rewards. Imagine playing through any FF game again where you are already max level and have the best gear in the game. That sounds terrible, but you are trying to tell me a majority of players like this and feel accomplishment from this? You sound like one of those people that believes everyone deserves a trophy.

So yea I believe this game needs more post game content over all. More options for gearing, and just more content in general for all players casual and hard core, and definately things that are repeatable as a large amount of the content the devs add becomes obsolete fairly quickly. It's possible we may be getting more of that we are getting some weird omega story, hildabrand story, 2 ultimate fights, criterion dungeons.

Now your whole thing about thing about hardcore minority, some people enjoy to play games that challenge them, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most games when there is a New Game + that is typically a challenge mode for people that want more from the game after completing it. In some cases it is just an easy mode to face roll through the game again as it is in FFXIV and there is nothing wrong with that either. But the expectation that everyone is to like New Game + being a face roll with no rewards, and if you don't then you are a hard core player that just wants rewards is just ignorant.

If anything I think it is a mistake on the devs end to not allow you to gain xp from NG+ as it would keep more expansions alive with that incentive as new players come into the game. Instead the answer to that was putting Trust systems through out each expansion. This is one of the major things that helped WoWs downfall was not keeping the new player experience intact and it can be a tricky thing to do as more expansions release. If you can't welcome your new players properly they will not stay.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Of course I would be hung up on not getting experience points or rewards. Imagine playing through any FF game again where you are already max level and have the best gear in the game. That sounds terrible, but you are trying to tell me a majority of players like this and feel accomplishment from this? You sound like one of those people that believes everyone deserves a trophy.

So yea I believe this game needs more post game content over all. More options for gearing, and just more content in general for all players casual and hard core, and definately things that are repeatable as a large amount of the content the devs add becomes obsolete fairly quickly. It's possible we may be getting more of that we are getting some weird omega story, hildabrand story, 2 ultimate fights, criterion dungeons.

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And this is why they cannot make games for you people. You all are out of touch with the world. The fact systems like New Game Plus and the way FFXIV is the way it is now instead of FFXIV 1.0 which had to be destoryed because again making games for you people does not make sense to the world.

Sadly, you people are never going to understand. I know it sucks the only content you people have is Eureka, The Bozjan Front, PVP, and Savage modes but if I were you I would be happy that made at least some zones for you people after FFXIV 1.0 had to be shut down because making games for you people do not make sense.

FFXI still exists, and I believe so does Everquest there are some companies still willing to make homes for you people.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

And this is why they cannot make games for you people. You all are out of touch with the world.

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I think the feeling is mutual as you confuse this MMORPG with a single player JRPG.

Also 1.0 was not destroyed, it is the foundation of this game, and the cause of most of its mechanical issues and limitations.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I think the feeling is mutual as you confuse this MMORPG with a single player JRPG.

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But you do understand the shut down games made for you people, right? FFXIV 1.0 is completely destroyed and unplayable. Are you obvious to the fact games like this is either made or remade with people like you out of sight out of mind?

I don't mean it as an insult, but rather a reality. I know for example not to go and play Eve Online because its not made for people like me. I know not to go play Everquest and its clones because its not made for people like me.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

But you do understand the shut down games made for you people, right? FFXIV 1.0 is completely destroyed and unplayable. Are you obvious to the fact games like this is either made or remade with people like you out of sight out of mind?

I don't mean it as an insult, but rather a reality. I know for example not to go and play Eve Online because its not made for people like me. I know not to go play Everquest and its clones because its not made for people like me.

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First of all, I am not sure who you mean by you people. Cause if you mean hardcore players I am far from that. I do savage cause I enjoy the challenge and typically have fun doing it. Does that mean it is for everyone? Not at all. Do I think there should be more content in a MMO for people that enjoy a challenge, absolutely but it should not be centralized on that. My feedback was "More options for gearing, and just more content in general for all players casual and hard core, and definytely things that are repeatable as a large amount of the content the devs add becomes obsolete fairly quickly." Now how you have pinned me into a certain group of individuals from that is beyond me.

Second of all I have never played FFXIV 1.0 except for alpha where I wrote a long letter about how terrible the game was and how it should not be released. Everquest was not a player friendly game, it was designed for a very niche group of people that enjoyed things more like dungeons and dragons, and the games difficulty and game play reflected that. There are other games like this as well, such as Neverwinter nights, Divinity, Baldurs Gate. That being said Everquest would be a game for people that enjoy story it has some hard mechanics such as dying and loosing all your equipment and running back to get your body but that was sadly a norm during this time. Same as FFXI this game had a very good plot as well but very old school mechanics that were just the norm at this time. I do not know if you are young and just do not understand video game history or demographics or are just ignorant as hell. I am leaning more towards ignorant though.

I think the big thing players need to ask, is what is FFXIV. If it is just the MSQ and a single player RPG than the subscription rate should be dropped and it should be released as such and stop producing content after the MSQ is complete. If it is an MMORPG, which is what it currently is, then it should have more post game content that does centralize on players grouping up to achieve a goal or accomplish a task.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I think the big thing players need to ask, is what is FFXIV. If it is just the MSQ and a single player RPG than the subscription rate should be dropped and it should be released as such and stop producing content after the MSQ is complete. If it is an MMORPG, which is what it currently is, then it should have more post game content that does centralize on players grouping up to achieve a goal or accomplish a task.

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And that is where we agree. I do think FFXIV should be single player at this point and I would prefer if it was a single player game and I would pay extra to play online when needed. This game could nickle and dime us and make us pay for the Warrior of Light outfit instead of grinding but it does not do that. Would I pay for this game again for a single play option where I can do all Raids, Trial and Content by myself and AI? You bet.

You might or might not know MSQ missions will be all Trusts and patched in starting with ARR MSQ dungeons. So yeah this is becoming more of a single player game and it feels like a Final Fantasy game for the first time since FF12 took the franchise in the wrong direction.

I feel like this OP could've titled the thread "I'm bored and I wanna troll, so troll troll troll!"

Troll post, right?

The common complaint with WoW is that they cater to raiders and hardcore players way more than casuals.

As for this game, it just doesn't have much content for either party at level cap.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

As for this game, it just doesn't have much content for either party at level cap.

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True, but that's by design. I'd rather play a game that allows its players to be done for a while than sub to one like WoW where they timegate their limited content and make the repeatable grinds for achievements/mounts/glamours last years rather than weeks. Contrary to what the OP claimed, this game is going in the opposite direction of WoW, and that's a good thing. I've been playing this game for years now, and I still haven't capped all my jobs. I'm still in the process of leveling my 80-90 trust party. I still haven't done all the role quests. I still haven't completed the Masked Carnivale with my BLU. This game has far more to offer than WoW. Mostly that's because SE simply refrains from rendering all previous content irrelevant with every new patch the way Blizzard does. Maybe once I've finally caught up and achieved everything I've wanted in this game, I'll finally run out of stuff to do, but I will honestly be relieved at that point. I'd like to finish Age of Empires IV someday, and I haven't played Civilization in a really long time, either.

Wow dies due to egos of devs. FF14 will not die but there smug of arrogance sometimes coming from the devs. Both games arent perfect but def one of them is better. Wow can be fix with easier entry of the game and not make the game a shore. While ff need to release more content because due how they play it. It pretty much same amount content we get on each patch.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Except I have been playing FF14 since Heavensward and I probably have played way more of FF14 than you ever will.

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Going to play that card? ok.

I've been playing since 1.0 and so far I don't see FF14 going the way of WoW in game play at all. I don't understand where you're seeing this from. I mean, they are even adding TWO ultimate fights during Endwalker while also adding completely new casual content.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Except the recent influx is from midcore WoW players looking for an MMO to go to lol, not casual players who can't handle a three-button rotation. The game has changed significantly from HW to ShB, and if you think there was no deviation you are honestly deluded.

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so the problem's the WoW players who are trying to turn FF14 to WoW. The game they left because they say it was no longer good.
Good logic there.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

Wow died due to egos of devs.

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Yep. Prior to the release of the Cataclysm expansion, I created a detailed post on how and why the proposed changes would ultimately drive healers away from the game. Ghostcrawler told me to quit posting.

There was nothing in my post that was inflammatory or less than polite. GC just didn't like someone pointing out the flaws in his vision for the game.

Over time, that attitude grew. The devs didn't want input. They wanted everyone to fawn over their genius.

It got to the point where beta-testing was a farce. In interviews, Ion openly admitted he never read any of the reports from testers because "he didn't believe players could give meaningful feedback."

I hope Yoshi isn't falling into the same arrogant mindset.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Yep. Prior to the release of the Cataclysm expansion, I created a detailed post on how and why the proposed changes would ultimately drive healers away from the game. Ghostcrawler told me to quit posting.

There was nothing in my post that was inflammatory or less than polite. GC just didn't like someone pointing out the flaws in his vision for the game.

Over time, that attitude grew. The devs didn't want input. They wanted everyone to fawn over their genius.

It got to the point where beta-testing was a farce. In interviews, Ion openly admitted he never read any of the reports from testers because "he didn't believe players could give meaningful feedback."

I hope Yoshi isn't falling into the same arrogant mindset.

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But aren’t healer in final fantasy 14 even worse gameplay wise as the ones in wow ?. If you talk about changes that did kill healer then we should not forget final fantasy 14 healer design choices and as with wow they also ignore these voices and the same with a lot of other jobs. Like I give you the example lifeletter we’re healer player did ask if they could fights more heal challenging and the answer was “You can go play ultimate fights if you are bored”, like if they actually had a clue about healers then they know these fights we’re also done by a solo healer.

Wow greatest problem is that it doesn’t respect the time the player has and that they have no fluffing clue how too write good storylines.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Yep. Prior to the release of the Cataclysm expansion, I created a detailed post on how and why the proposed changes would ultimately drive healers away from the game. Ghostcrawler told me to quit posting.

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Seriously, those problems have the FF14 devs too. Many healers are not very happy because they play a crippled DPS job. The same with tanks. There is a huge imbalance between the tank jobs. And the devs do nothing.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Mortex

But aren’t healer in final fantasy 14 even worse gameplay wise as the ones in wow ?. If you talk about changes that did kill healer then we should not forget final fantasy 14 healer design choices and as with wow they also ignore these voices and the same with a lot of other jobs. Like I give you the example lifeletter we’re healer player did ask if they could fights more heal challenging and the answer was “You can go play ultimate fights if you are bored”, like if they actually had a clue about healers then they know these fights we’re also done by a solo healer.

Wow greatest problem is that it doesn’t respect the time the player has and that they have no fluffing clue how too write good storylines.

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Sorry but I see this "story" repeated over and over again and it is very very far from an accurate description of Yoshida's answer. No, that was not the answer at all. He first provided a quite substantial explanation about what their purpose was, that we were in the first patch, that they wanted everybody to have an easy go in the first tier, that things would get a bit harder as the patches roll and then, after he gave his complete answer he added, clearly in a joking tone, that you could "play ultimate and suffer" IIRC. You may agree or disagree with his reasons to keep it as easy as it is (meaning the reasons explained before the actual joke), of course, but completely ignoring the important part of the answer, I mean, the real answer, and then quoting the irrelevant part of it completely out of context as if it was the only answer is not only unfair, it is dishonest.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Seriously, those problems have the FF14 devs too. Many healers are not very happy because they play a crippled DPS job. The same with tanks. There is a huge imbalance between the tank jobs. And the devs do nothing.


Cheers

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One thing to remember is that they don't use smaller patches to fix jobs, or do emergency maintenances/hotfixes unless something is truly broken. The only times that jobs get any significant tweaks and changes are expansions launches or major patches. Healers have been ignored for a while now though, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

But aren’t healer in final fantasy 14 even worse gameplay wise as the ones in wow ?. If you talk about changes that did kill healer then we should not forget final fantasy 14 healer design choices and as with wow they also ignore these voices and the same with a lot of other jobs. Like I give you the example lifeletter we’re healer player did ask if they could fights more heal challenging and the answer was “You can go play ultimate fights if you are bored”, like if they actually had a clue about healers then they know these fights we’re also done by a solo healer.

Wow greatest problem is that it doesn’t respect the time the player has and that they have no fluffing clue how too write good storylines.

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Healers in WoW are also pretty garbaj
XIV and WoW both present the extremes on healing - one is a near constant healer and the other is 90% dps 10% heal

I mean a really good holy paladin could solo heal Ultraxion, but that was at the time top healer type stuff.
A warrior can solo heal in XIV alone lol

just two extremes sigh

Watching the world first race I am honestly just confused most of the time, it's so hard to see what's actually happening.
Things look like they're going fine but then suddenly the tank and whole group just dies to seemingly nothing, the game rly does a terrible job at telling you what's going on.

At least in FFXIV I think even if you don't play the game you can still with some common sense see some tells and at least know that something is going to happen even if you don't know what.
In WoW it so often just looks like the boss is auto-attacking and then BANG, everyone is dead.
I actually remember this now thinking back to it too when I used to raid especially with my guild in Cata, I always felt like things were going fine but then we just died and I'd have no clue what happened.
And we weren't horrible or anything we did clear the content but I still remember being left with the feeling that deaths were a mystery too often.
In FFXIV I can see exactly what happens and why we wipe, it's very rare that the group wipes and that I don't know why it happened.

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Originally Posted by Erik501

Sorry but I see this "story" repeated over and over again and it is very very far from an accurate description of Yoshida's answer. No, that was not the answer at all. He first provided a quite substantial explanation about what their purpose was, that we were in the first patch, that they wanted everybody to have an easy go in the first tier, that things would get a bit harder as the patches roll and then, after he gave his complete answer he added, clearly in a joking tone, that you could "play ultimate and suffer" IIRC. You may agree or disagree with his reasons to keep it as easy as it is (meaning the reasons explained before the actual joke), of course, but completely ignoring the important part of the answer, I mean, the real answer, and then quoting the irrelevant part of it completely out of context as if it was the only answer is not only unfair, it is dishonest.

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The problem is this is not a new complaint this is a complaint that has been going on since Stormblood. It shouldn't take several patch cycles for a healer to play and feel like a healer. So when you have complaints that span almost 5 years, and you joke and say to go play ultimate it's easy to see that as sincere. And it is funny because in the past Yoshi P has said healers are healers they are not meant to dps at all they are meant to heal. I don't think Yoshi has a clue, because the game has been designed with DPS requirements requiring healers to DPS, and small sections of AOE healing to give the healer a purpose for those healing spells. The jobs aren't designed well as healers, they aren't designed well for dps, and the content now is not designed well for them at all. So I wouldn't consider it unfair or dishonest I would consider it a distasteful joke.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

The major issues with difficulty were within that Heroics had a super low barrier of entry, but were tuned hard. Then they got nerfed to be faceroll.

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They weren't nerfed to be faceroll until after the mass exodus occurred. By then, it was too late. All the midcore players had left, and everyone remaining either became a hardcore raider or an ultra casual. From then on Blizzard kept going more extreme on both sides. The hard content got harder, and the easier content got easier and ever less rewarding.

You're also missing a crucial detail. Even though heroic dungeons were tuned to be harder than normal raids, their gear rewards were still 25 item levels lower than normal raid gear drops. Blizzard clearly sent a message that they wanted us to raid or quit. Most of us quit. I was an idiot who adopted a harecore style of play and stuck around a couple more years, but I eventually got tired of it because the lifestyle wasn't doing my wife or kids any favors. I resubbed at the end of BFA because my kids had grown and I actually had time on my hands again, but I quit a couple of months into Shadowlands when I saw how much worse it had gotten.

Troll Heroics were hard, but at least the timer was an optional one-off activity that awarded a fun mount. Now your loot quality is entirely dependent on that timer. I personally enjoy the challenge of running with newer players who are learning mechanics, but I hate the fact that this style of gameplay in WoW deprives players of progress and meaningful loot rewards. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Thankfully FFXIV doesn't do that. If it did, you'd never see any party finder listings with "learning" or "practice" in the title.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Watching the world first race I am honestly just confused most of the time, it's so hard to see what's actually happening.
Things look like they're going fine but then suddenly the tank and whole group just dies to seemingly nothing, the game rly does a terrible job at telling you what's going on.

At least in FFXIV I think even if you don't play the game you can still with some common sense see some tells and at least know that something is going to happen even if you don't know what.
In WoW it so often just looks like the boss is auto-attacking and then BANG, everyone is dead.
I actually remember this now thinking back to it too when I used to raid especially with my guild in Cata, I always felt like things were going fine but then we just died and I'd have no clue what happened.
And we weren't horrible or anything we did clear the content but I still remember being left with the feeling that deaths were a mystery too often.
In FFXIV I can see exactly what happens and why we wipe, it's very rare that the group wipes and that I don't know why it happened.

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Too right.
Quite literally everything in boss fights are just ?????
RLs in WoW who took on content on the first day were usually naturally talented strategists and could figure these things out and explain it to the group. I was honestly quite envious and at the same time not envious of my RL who could figure out strats without waiting on vids/guides.

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Originally Posted by Erik501

Sorry but I see this "story" repeated over and over again and it is very very far from an accurate description of Yoshida's answer. No, that was not the answer at all. He first provided a quite substantial explanation about what their purpose was, that we were in the first patch, that they wanted everybody to have an easy go in the first tier, that things would get a bit harder as the patches roll and then, after he gave his complete answer he added, clearly in a joking tone, that you could "play ultimate and suffer" IIRC. You may agree or disagree with his reasons to keep it as easy as it is (meaning the reasons explained before the actual joke), of course, but completely ignoring the important part of the answer, I mean, the real answer, and then quoting the irrelevant part of it completely out of context as if it was the only answer is not only unfair, it is dishonest.

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Why would he in a serious note talk about stuff that takes all jobs in consideration when only healer did ask him about what they think about changing healer and make them more interesting ?.

So it’s fine for dps roles to be actually difficult and fun too play but for healer it’s for getting easy in the game ? At lvl 90 ??? Whm has the moment he reaches lvl 4 his full damage rotation. You can actually with serious face tell me that healer gameplay is good and not sleep inducing? And I don’t take that as a funny joke anymore after over 5 years getting neglected as old healer player who jumped too Meele, so it hurts my soul seeing other healer player suffer so much. Like you can tell me what you want but when you even as a joke say “go play ultimate” at the end of healer question a role like I said that was ignored for over 5 years then I have no idea what you think is good way too treat a big part of the community.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

The problem is this is not a new complaint this is a complaint that has been going on since Stormblood. It shouldn't take several patch cycles for a healer to play and feel like a healer. So when you have complaints that span almost 5 years, and you joke and say to go play ultimate it's easy to see that as sincere. And it is funny because in the past Yoshi P has said healers are healers they are not meant to dps at all they are meant to heal. I don't think Yoshi has a clue, because the game has been designed with DPS requirements requiring healers to DPS, and small sections of AOE healing to give the healer a purpose for those healing spells. The jobs aren't designed well as healers, they aren't designed well for dps, and the content now is not designed well for them at all. So I wouldn't consider it unfair or dishonest I would consider it a distasteful joke.

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Don’t forget the man told us back in heavensward that whm heals more then scholar in raids when the entire opposite was happening because sch had good ogcd healing tools and whm had jack. Or stormblood lily system were the whm player base told them it’s garbage and that they should pls change it only for the devs too go “ go playtest and see” and like they said it was so useless it was sad.

I think WoW is killing itself even further with the horrendous conclusion of the story. The majority of streamers I've seen reacting to the newest cutscenes seem to have extremely negative reviews of it.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I think WoW is killing itself even further with the horrendous conclusion of the story. The majority of streamers I've seen reacting to the newest cutscenes seem to have extremely negative reviews of it.

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Thats and its awful patch cycle pacing. The whole Zereth Mortis zone and the last raid felt like it shouldve been there since launch day due to its relevancy. This is something I praise FFXIV's expansion content launch, it at least tells a completed story with post expansion patch content just giving us an expanded aftermath.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I think WoW is killing itself even further with the horrendous conclusion of the story. The majority of streamers I've seen reacting to the newest cutscenes seem to have extremely negative reviews of it.

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It was hilarious to watch the world first streamers kill him and then when the cutscene ended one of them said loudly '' well that was shit '' xD...
Tbh the level of incompetence is hard to believe, it's not just the overall story either it's also the dialogue itself it's horribly written.
It really does seem as if it was written by studio executives or something.

It's quite telling when I heard people say that the intro cutscene was great I just...
Is that really how low the bar is for WoW?
It feels like they're just trying to be '' cool '' and not tell a story, queue the dramatic orchestral score and generic villain monologue.

Edit: It's really sad too because I do love a lot of the characters, there actually was some good stuff with Jaina too in BFA imo.
It's not just WoW either tho, I hated what they did with Starcraft and especially with Kerrigan.
She was such an incredible character in Starcraft 1 and Brood War and in Starcraft 2 they went back and forth with her going from Zerg to Human and they turned her into space Jesus fighting bio Reapers from Mass Effect ( hated what they did with the Zerg too, turned them into beasts instead of a parasite type of alien ).

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Why would he in a serious note talk about stuff that takes all jobs in consideration when only healer did ask him about what they think about changing healer and make them more interesting ?.

So it’s fine for dps roles to be actually difficult and fun too play but for healer it’s for getting easy in the game ? At lvl 90 ??? Whm has the moment he reaches lvl 4 his full damage rotation. You can actually with serious face tell me that healer gameplay is good and not sleep inducing? And I don’t take that as a funny joke anymore after over 5 years getting neglected as old healer player who jumped too Meele, so it hurts my soul seeing other healer player suffer so much. Like you can tell me what you want but when you even as a joke say “go play ultimate” at the end of healer question a role like I said that was ignored for over 5 years then I have no idea what you think is good way too treat a big part of the community.

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Good, if you want to address his answer that is the way to do it: you explain why you believe he is wrong in his real answer and don't use the joke to make a straw man. Thank you. I can't say if I agree with you or with Yoshida, I am not in Endwalker territory yet, so I lack the information to make an honest opinion about that.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I think WoW is killing itself even further with the horrendous conclusion of the story. The majority of streamers I've seen reacting to the newest cutscenes seem to have extremely negative reviews of it.

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20 years Warcraft ... for this. :( I guess, the WoW devs are too fixated on metrics. The majority of the players does not read the quest texts. So i guess, the devs thought, that the story is not so important because the players simply ignore it. But they are wrong. And i am curious what WoW 10 will bring to the table. It will be "Danuser's baby" (Danuser is the story lead in the WoW team). And Asmongold meant, if this is "Danuser's baby", then he wants an abortion. :X



Cheers