Warning for "Grief" Tactics?!

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

If you try to help and they still die, then it's theirs.

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Exactly what I have been saying! I'm glad we can agree.

My favourite heals are the glare machines, that say "I have co-heal for that" and try to out-DPS others. Happened while farming Emerald Weapon back in ShB along with PLD with golden parses that ate half the AoE's.

Idk If you pick a healer then heal, even if it's a sprout that works as a floor tank or BLM that eats all the aoes. We're not in savage where heal DPS matters so much you can't overheal much.

read through all 21 pages, with on input from OP

My speculation based on what and how OP written. The most likely cause might be not reviving down player when the situation allow. Then I believe there are some exchange of arguments and OP might have use some “emotional” words.

Could it be the truth, only OP, those report her and might be GM know. However, based on the limited informations/statements we got, I think this is the more likely scenario

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

You do not know whether a GM reviewed it or not. And when you look how enthusiastic the FF14 players usually are when it comes to report other players, i can imagine that they have an automatic account flagging system for that. Otherwise you would need hundreds of GMs to review the reports.



Cheers

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How do you know they hand out warnings or any other penalty without reviewing the report(s)? Of course GMs look at it.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

read through all 21 pages, with on input from OP

My speculation based on what and how OP written. The most likely cause might be not reviving down player when the situation allow. Then I believe there are some exchange of arguments and OP might have use some “emotional” words.

Could it be the truth, only OP, those report her and might be GM know. However, based on the limited informations/statements we got, I think this is the more likely scenario

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It's really just a guess since none of us know for certain what the report was specifically, just that OP was apparently griefing. And going by OP's general attitude about withholding raises in certain instances and getting complaints for doing that, it's not hard to put two and two together. But for all we know, the report could have been for something else entirely.

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Originally Posted by Senn

How do you know they hand out warnings or any other penalty without reviewing the report(s)? Of course GMs look at it.

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I hope it is so. :) And i am still curious what the TE has made wrong. I do not like the "you did something wrong but we do not tell you what it was"-policy.



Cheers

Oh no! I can have an attitude on the forums! Woe is me, that must mean that translates in-game!

No, no. Frankly, people have an attitude with me! They are lucky that I haven't bothered to report them, with what I have endured before via chat.

By the way, it is hilarious.. I have been attacked for saying "becoming a monster" (OoOoh) by simply saying I would follow the example many in this community make: to report griefers, people cursing, and the like. The people who reported me were doing great work, but if I did the same I am not?

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I hope it is so. :) And i am still curious what the TE has made wrong. I do not like the "you did something wrong but we do not tell you what it was"-policy.



Cheers

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I can't say I'm necessarily a fan of that, either. If you don't know what you did wrong, how are you supposed to self correct? (Though I think generally people are able to take an educated guess as to how they violated the ToS.) But on the other hand, if they give you more details about it, you could probably figure out who reported you and that could lead to potential harassment. As it is right now, the game won't even implement a 2-way delete friendlist system so as not to step on people's toes (which I think they should change). So I don't think they would tell you more information, since it would put the people who reported at risk.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Oh no! I can have an attitude on the forums! Woe is me, that must mean that translates in-game!

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I mean... kinda, yeah. I wouldn't doubt it considering your posts on here.

I think it's also worth noting that the FFXIV community is rather prone to subtle and blatant witch hunts. To the point where a poster can state something completely innocent in one thread and then attract the attention of an individual or group of posters who then decide to follow that poster through many other threads in an effort to frustrate and gaslight the individual they are targeting in order to try and rile them up enough to justify a report.

Some may consider that to be a 'conspiracy theory' but as someone who has been sent death threats simply for liking the 'wrong' characters in this game's story, I can promise that it is no exaggeration. I also think that people should not overlook the various Twitter blogs devoted to stalking this very forum for 'wrong think' to be displayed in a way that further encourages harassment of any poster who dares to go against the grain on any issue whatsoever.

I don't doubt that the same mentality is at play within the game itself to at least some degree and I also think that, ultimately, most player 'skirmishes' are over petty issues that really could just be let go and not be worthy of punishment.

It isn't unusual to have people come to the forum every now and then to state that, despite being harassed over many months, their stalkers and abusers are left unfettered - so I humbly think that maybe it'd be best for more egregious breaches of the game's rules to be investigated instead of minor scuffles between players who are frustrated over differing playstyles.

As a general rule I *highly* advise to not display one's main character on the forums, and to instead display a lesser used alt in order to protect from in-game harassment. I have no doubt that given my strong opinions on Summoner there are at least a few individuals who would jump at the chance to confront me about it in game, when I'd much rather be focused on crafting/gathering etc when I'm not in instanced battle content. I do not want to deal with it, plain and simple.

(On another note, FFXIV twitter is...quite an experience. Besides more widespread general takes like "X is a cool addition" "agreed" I tend not to engage with users who are there to be negative or to complain about things that aren't particularly pressing issues, like if FFXIV will ever come to xbox or attacking people for liking villains because they have X quality they don't like)

I'm honestly shocked that this thread hasn't been yanked into oblivion yet lol

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

As a general rule I *highly* advise to not display one's main character on the forums, and to instead display a lesser used alt in order to protect from in-game harassment.

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I mean, knock on wood here, but I'm the opposite; I put my main and my alt out there without issue. I may disagree with many on the forums overall, but I don't think I've ever gotten overly petty or argumentative for no reason. If I have nothing to add to a particular thread, even if someone else "got the last word", I just stop responding (like a recent post I had saying I like how WHM works which was apparently the wrong line of thinking in that thread).

I mean, protect yourself by all means, but surely a good way to protect yourself is to just not engage with idiots.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Oh no! I can have an attitude on the forums! Woe is me, that must mean that translates in-game!

No, no. Frankly, people have an attitude with me! They are lucky that I haven't bothered to report them, with what I have endured before via chat.

By the way, it is hilarious.. I have been attacked for saying "becoming a monster" (OoOoh) by simply saying I would follow the example many in this community make: to report griefers, people cursing, and the like. The people who reported me were doing great work, but if I did the same I am not?

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Generally, the trend would remain consistent between mediums of communication. Be it on here, on Reddit, or in-game. Perhaps you just elect to skirt them more.

The fact remains, you have an attitude on the forums, and another fact remains that you got a warning in-game on your 'perfect record' - Regardless of your own personal feelings to anyone from an outside perspective it is both a potential trend and an unwillingness to act appropriately.

and no, people have called you a monster because you announced it in quite arguably a very spiteful tone. Heck even this one is very sarcastic and contradictory which just tells me you're eagerly trying to rationalise any course of irrational behaviour you're exhibiting. If you were as innocent as you previously claimed then they clearly won't doing a good job. But now by your own admission they were doing great work. - So I suppose you just aren't that innocent, are you?

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

and no, people have called you a monster because you announced it in quite arguably a very spiteful tone. Heck even this one is very sarcastic and contradictory which just tells me you're eagerly trying to rationalise any course of irrational behaviour you're exhibiting. If you were as innocent as you previously claimed then they clearly won't doing a good job. But now by your own admission they were doing great work. - So I suppose you just aren't that innocent, are you?

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Right, right, and the people reporting me for "griefing" aren't acting out of spite. The players reporting others for "profanity" (cursing), aren't acting out of spite. Give me a break. I don't know if people know this, but there is a thing called 'sarcasm'.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Right, right, and the people reporting me for "griefing" aren't acting out of spite. The players reporting others for "profanity" (cursing), aren't acting out of spite. Give me a break. I don't know if people know this, but there is a thing called 'sarcasm'.

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The thing is though sarcasm is 100% lost when you make your thread based on your frustrations/anger on being reported for griefing, so what do you want people to think exactly when you post stuff like that?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Right, right, and the people reporting me for "griefing" aren't acting out of spite. The players reporting others for "profanity" (cursing), aren't acting out of spite. Give me a break. I don't know if people know this, but there is a thing called 'sarcasm'.

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Sarcasm isnt an excuse to be rude.

Random people can not hear sarcasm from a text of people they dont know.
To others, i probably seem extremely rude and blunt, but its just that i like to just say things as they are and not sugarcoat them.
I also like to rant and fully inderstand the other side, so i ask a lot of questions, which might look really weird and defensive to some.

Others cant know your intend.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Right, right, and the people reporting me for "griefing" aren't acting out of spite. The players reporting others for "profanity" (cursing), aren't acting out of spite. Give me a break. I don't know if people know this, but there is a thing called 'sarcasm'.

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No if you deliberately refuse to heal or rez someone, regardless of whether said damage was their own fault or not can be considered griefing. But then I suppose we get into this whole neurotic discussion of "But they are doing it tooo!!!" - Part of your responsibility as a healer is to do the best you can to ensure everyone is alive regardless of where the blame falls for the mistake.

See it is your tone that conveys intent. If someone is reporting you for not adhering to the ToS which they quite clearly did then no it is not a spiteful act, it is someone carrying out a civil service. Arguably you would be too if your tone didn't take a dramatic change from "It doesn't bother me so I won't report it" straight the way over to "Can't beat em, join em; just report everything that constitutes as an infraction regardless of how minor" - At this point I wouldn't even consider it sarcastic but just your attempt at trying to rationalise your behaviour.

Yes that is a fairly spiteful response. Good luck inferring sarcasm on a digital medium. Especially when the entirety of your thread is already underpinned by a relatively upset/frustrated tone.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

The thing is though sarcasm is 100% lost when you make your thread based on your frustrations/anger on being reported for griefing, so what do you want people to think exactly when you post stuff like that?

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Does anyone seriously think it actually matters what I posted sarcastic or not? I know I am disliked by many, and this is an ample opportunity for anybody who doesn't like me to gloat about how my 'perfect record' was ruined. Exactly how does anyone think I attained a 'perfect record' for so long if any of the baseless accusations that have been made against me were actually true. In over half a decade I have NEVER had a GM interaction.

This is a vent thread, I never thought I would accomplish anything by posting it, aside from venting. I am just frustrated by the lack of info given on what I supposedly did, and the obsession by many in this community to report for petty reasons.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

No if you deliberately refuse to heal or rez someone, regardless of whether said damage was their own fault or not can be considered griefing.

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Exactly where did I state I "refuse" to raise anybody. I stated I raise people immediately if I have swiftcast, or I wait until it is up to raise. Otherwise, if required, I will hardcast important roles such as the other healer, tanks, or dps who can raise. People just don't like how I word things. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

See it is your tone that conveys intent. If someone is reporting you for not adhering to the ToS which they quite clearly did then no it is not a spiteful act, it is someone carrying out a civil service.

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Oh.My.God. I LOVE that justification.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Right, right, and the people reporting me for "griefing" aren't acting out of spite. The players reporting others for "profanity" (cursing), aren't acting out of spite. Give me a break. I don't know if people know this, but there is a thing called 'sarcasm'.

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We can't know if they reported out of spite for certain and neither can you. Perhaps they genuinely saw whatever it was as griefing. Perhaps they reported it generally and the GM saw it as griefing. Unless we all become psychic there is no way to know what was going on inside the heads of the others involved in all of this.

The thing that is really the problem is that because of company policies you were not told what you did wrong so mitigating your behavior going forward is virtually impossible. From your posts in this thread is it apparent (imo) that you have no idea what actually triggered the report. So barring an appeal being successful you not only have no way of getting it fixed you cannot avoid the offensive behavior in the future. That strikes me as setting up players for repeated violations.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Right, right, and the people reporting me for "griefing" aren't acting out of spite. The players reporting others for "profanity" (cursing), aren't acting out of spite. Give me a break. I don't know if people know this, but there is a thing called 'sarcasm'.

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Sarcasm isn't usually well received by those you do not know and are otherwise not close to unless it is done in a very friendly joking manner.

This user has an attitude in the forums, refuses to perform their job functions when other people mess up because its their fault, vows revenge about becoming a monster and going on a reporting spree. It's not hard to imagine why they would eventually get caught by the GMs even if they behave in the most subtle of manners in game. All I get from them is resentment and anger plus an overall jadedness with the game and its casual playerbase, the one SE is most interested in keeping.

While a healer is supposed to damage in this game it doesn't take priority over keeping the party alive and acting as a backup for when people mess up. In fact, a healer refusing to raise as quickly as possible to keep attacking is a huge net loss on DPS because the dead person, usually a DPS, cannot get any of their more higher power (compared to the healer) GCDs off on the boss Even at 25% damage reduction and probably close to parity at 50%.

The GM answered you and provided a way to appeal the decision in a very curteous and professional manner, but even afterwards you continue to paint the company and everyone else in a bad light compared to you. We are nothing but peons here for your agenda of trying to make the company look bad for something they did that you don't agree with.

It is also pretty clear here your intention isn't to find empathy as much as it is to punish the company with negative PR because they dared to warn you. Just ugh... Go appeal and if that fails, since multiple parties have reviewed it at that point just acknowledge that maybe you slipped up and you are not the blameless paragon you claim to be. SE cleaned up one bad GM for banning people they shouldn't so they have a good record of being impartial when bans are appealed. They are not intentionally out against their own paying customers. I can tell you that.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Does anyone seriously think it actually matters what I posted sarcastic or not? I know I am disliked by many, and this is an ample opportunity for anybody who doesn't like me to gloat about how my 'perfect record' was ruined. Exactly how does anyone think I attained a 'perfect record' for so long if any of the baseless accusations that have been made against me were actually true. In over half a decade I have NEVER had a GM interaction.

This is a vent thread, I never thought I would accomplish anything by posting it, aside from venting. I am just frustrated by the lack of info given on what I may have done, and the obsession by many in this community to report for petty reasons.

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I mean considering that the majority of the people here have conveyed that they took you seriously on the monster post, then yes lol. You can't get miffed at people for taking it seriously on a thread based on frustration and go "it's obviously sarcasm and hyberbole!" it's just not going to be seen that way.

Also, I did make a post yesterday agreeing that there needs to be way more transparency. I get that a person could know who reported them, but a middle ground needs to be found. It's not ok to leave you hanging in the dark, and SE did you dirty for that. I think(?) the monster quote was nuked and since I had that quoted, it unfortunately deleted my post as well kek.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I mean considering that the majority of the people here have conveyed that they took you seriously on the monster post, then yes lol. You can't get miffed at people for taking it seriously on a thread based on frustration and go "it's obviously sarcasm and hyberbole!" it's just not going to be seen that way.

Also, I did make a post yesterday agreeing that there needs to be way more transparency. I get that a person could know who reported them, but a middle ground needs to be found. It's not ok to leave you hanging in the dark, and SE did you dirty for that. I think(?) the monster quote was nuked and since I had that quoted, it unfortunately deleted my post as well kek.

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I would think that in many cases a GM could just say something like "You have a long running history (having consulted logs) of doing X." In which case no specific incident is discussed. There is no way in that case to identify who reported. For all you know it could have been a series of reports over possibly months or years that they have just reached the tipping point with.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

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That is called an example of something that would constitute as a violation that someone might otherwise consider themselves just playing the game. Arguably with both the report and the action carried out on your account it was fairly agreed upon that what you have done did constitute as an account violation. See, amongst all the things you could have done to vent you insisted that you've done nothing wrong, then gone on to say "Well how I behave on here isn't necessarily how I present myself in-game" All the way up to "People just don't like how I word things"

I might have actually been inclined to join your little venting crusade if it were underpinned by the reasoning that you don't think it is justifiable that they can sanction you without giving you an avenue formally at the same time where you can try and dispute the decision, or an avenue with which to see the logs associated with the decision making, of which there is (DSAR). Instead of being insistent that you were innocent and that the community are just babies that like being coddled through everything. Inarguably you're more upset and have put more effort into this vent than the person did in actually reporting you.

I'm glad you liked the rationalisation of it. Because it's true. If you breach the ToS it shows an unwillingness to act appropriately and thus someone reporting you is doing a civil service by ensuring that you're deterred from repeating the mistake (That is if you reflect on your own actions) - P.S I saw that little ninja edit. In response to saying you'll use it as justification whenever you report someone. To that end I wish you all the best in your endeavours of fighting the good fight and doing the selfsame thing that you bashed people for in your original post.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

This user has an attitude in the forums, refuses to perform their job functions when other people mess up because its their fault, vows revenge about becoming a monster and going on a reporting spree. It's not hard to imagine why they would eventually get caught by the GMs even if they behave in the most subtle of manners in game. All I get from them is resentment and anger plus an overall jadedness with the game and its casual playerbase, the one SE is most interested in keeping.

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I never stated I refused to do anything. I don't know why people keep saying I did. I even gave context on what I meant with "their fault" earlier, yet still I keep seeing this. It's odd. Oh I don't hide my 'jadedness' with this game and many in it's playerbase, but the funny thing is.. I consider myself a casual player! I do not think "casual" means bad. I don't know why someone has to be 'hardcore' to read what their skills do, or follow mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

We are nothing but peons here for your agenda of trying to make the company look bad for something they did that you don't agree with.

It is also pretty clear here your intention isn't to find empathy as much as it is to punish the company with negative PR because they dared to warn you. Just ugh... Go appeal and if that fails, since multiple parties have reviewed it at that point just acknowledge that maybe you slipped up and you are not the blameless paragon you claim to be. SE cleaned up one bad GM for banning people they shouldn't so they have a good record of being impartial when bans are appealed. They are not intentionally out against their own paying customers. I can tell you that.

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Excuse me, what?! This is a vent thread. Literally. Oh.my.God. ??????????????????

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I think(?) the monster quote was nuked and since I had that quoted, it unfortunately deleted my post as well kek.

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No way! Are you serious?! Someone reported my ridiculous post and the mods deleted it? Oh, the irony. Lol.

So people finally reported you enough for refusing to press a single healing GCD as WHM, blaming them for you needing to heal in the first place?

I don't understand why you're so surprised.

I suggest you go SGE, you won't have to press GCD heals on that - at least not remotely as often.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

As a general rule I *highly* advise to not display one's main character on the forums, and to instead display a lesser used alt in order to protect from in-game harassment. I have no doubt that given my strong opinions on Summoner there are at least a few individuals who would jump at the chance to confront me about it in game, when I'd much rather be focused on crafting/gathering etc when I'm not in instanced battle content. I do not want to deal with it, plain and simple.

(On another note, FFXIV twitter is...quite an experience. Besides more widespread general takes like "X is a cool addition" "agreed" I tend not to engage with users who are there to be negative or to complain about things that aren't particularly pressing issues, like if FFXIV will ever come to xbox or attacking people for liking villains because they have X quality they don't like)

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Seconded. Plus if like me you're a regular fantasia user, it takes care of that too.

I've not encountered any issues personally, but I don't regret keeping my accounts across various sites separate, especially since I've noticed e.g. on reddit some people get tilted over even the most minor of disagreements. Thankfully both there and on Twitter, blocking works a charm.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Right, right, and the people reporting me for "griefing" aren't acting out of spite. The players reporting others for "profanity" (cursing), aren't acting out of spite. Give me a break. I don't know if people know this, but there is a thing called 'sarcasm'.

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I mean, they might not actually be reporting you out of spite- which is what a large chunk of us are trying to tell you. Certain things you have claimed to do are specifically AGAINST the ToS. I have bolded some of it for your reference.

Your stance has been "I have done nothing wrong" and really should be "If I did something wrong, I will try to not do those things from now on".

It's really not hard to look up the ToS and specifically see what could be the problem.

ToS:
(link: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...6&id=5382&la=1)

Intentional leaving or disconnection:
(This is a little bit more open, since it's not clear if it only applies to actual DC or just leaving the instance.)

Refers to the act of obstructing another person's gameplay by intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server.
Key Points
Since the game relies on internet connectivity, it is inevitable that there will be network disconnections or real-life circumstances which prevent you from playing the game. As such, simply disconnecting or remaining inactive in the game will not result in a penalty.

However, if a report is filed, a penalty will be issued if the following types of situations are confirmed to be occurring repeatedly:

Occurs right after entering a duty
Occurs when progress is not going well in a duty
Occurs when the team is about to be defeated in PvP

Even if there was no intention to interfere with others, repeated occurrences can be a nuisance to others. If you are experiencing network instability, or if you are frequently unable to play due to real-world circumstances, be considerate of others by refraining from participating in the duty/content, taking into account that you may unintentionally cause issues for others.

Please note that Square Enix may conduct investigations and issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed if the act was confirmed publicly through online video, streaming services, or other means.

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior:
(Not healing, and by extension raising, another player because you don't like their getting hurt/dying)

Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.
Key Points
Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."
"I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out."
"I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content."

If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

Please note that Square Enix may conduct investigations and issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed if the act has been confirmed publicly through online video, streaming services, or other means.

Note they've made it clear this list is non-exhaustive, and that the things you are doing skirt very close to the above listed.

Again, as I've said, I hope your attempts to get closure on this go well, but please do accept there is a very strong possibility your warning was well earned.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

I would think that in many cases a GM could just say something like "You have a long running history (having consulted logs) of doing X." In which case no specific incident is discussed. There is no way in that case to identify who reported. For all you know it could have been a series of reports over possibly months or years that they have just reached the tipping point with.

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I definitely like this idea of going about it instead of just "go file an appeal and await results." knowing full well that it could take a while to even get a response. Even though the OP's attitude and being "disliked by many" is contested and called into question in this thread, I will say is that I empathize with the anxiety the OP must feel from being stonewalled from a proper explanation and not knowing exactly what led to the warning, one report or many. I would be anxious too, and this is me full well knowing that sometimes I can act like a total jabroni in /say lol

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I definitely like this idea of going about it instead of just "go file an appeal and await results." knowing full well that it could take a while to even get a response. Even though the OP's attitude and being "disliked by many" is contested and called into question in this thread, I will say is that I empathize with the anxiety the OP must feel from being stonewalled from a proper explanation and not knowing exactly what led to the warning, one report or many. I would be anxious too, and this is me full well knowing that sometimes I can act like a total jabroni in /say lol

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I think we all have acted the fool at some point or another.

Honestly I think the really important takeaway from the thread is not the OPs guilt or innocence as much as it is it could happen to any of us that we incur a penalty and will never be told what we did to incur it. That is frankly a bit frightening.

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the GMs and SE need to change the way they handle reports. There needs to be some transparency on what someone did wrong so they can prevent it from happening again.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I definitely like this idea of going about it instead of just "go file an appeal and await results." knowing full well that it could take a while to even get a response.

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While I agree, I can understand why they don't as it adds a huge layer of busywork for the GMs and puts it firmly on them to sort out. Often it's very easy to reflect oneself, read the ToS and see "Ohhh I see that's what I did", then never need to file in the first place.

In my case I mocked a troll on the forum and got a 10 day ban for it. (Bravo to you, space-bunny-alien-fairy-person; you baited me and got me). Didn't realize that was what it was but I could figure it out in about 20-30 minutes of digging.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

While I agree, I can understand why they don't as it adds a huge layer of busywork for the GMs and puts it firmly on them to sort out. Often it's very easy to reflect oneself, read the ToS and see "Ohhh I see that's what I did", then never need to file in the first place.

In my case I mocked a troll on the forum and got a 10 day ban for it. (Bravo to you, space-bunny-alien-fairy-person; you baited me and got me). Didn't realize that was what it was but I could figure it out in about 20-30 minutes of digging.

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Except that it is a GMs job to sort out problems. So I have no sympathy on the busywork front.

In your example you were able to sort out what you did. That is great. For many that won't be true. Perhaps they just do not see the behavior as offensive or maybe they just don't interpret a rule the same way as SE intended it. For the latter see the huge threads when the new examples of actionable behavior were put out not long ago. Individual interpretations of those example were widely varied to the point where some people had diametrically opposing views on what they meant.

If the GM is doing their job properly and looking in to the problem incident to make a fair judgement it would not add "busywork" to allow them to give a statement of what the infraction was without identifying a specific incident or person. Simply saying "griefing" is far too general.

EDIT: I actually rather suspect this is a policy dictated by SE's legal team to cover themselves vs laws varying in multiple countries. In which case it is unlikely to change.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the GMs and SE need to change the way they handle reports. There needs to be some transparency on what someone did wrong so they can prevent it from happening again.

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It is a difficult subject

On one hand it would be ideal that GM could show the scene where or what it break TOS

On the other hand they have to keep the privacy of player who submit the report to prevent any harassment

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

That is called an example of something that would constitute as a violation that someone might otherwise consider themselves just playing the game. Arguably with both the report and the action carried out on your account it was fairly agreed upon that what you have done did constitute as an account violation. See, amongst all the things you could have done to vent you insisted that you've done nothing wrong, then gone on to say "Well how I behave on here isn't necessarily how I present myself in-game" All the way up to "People just don't like how I word things"

I might have actually been inclined to join your little venting crusade if it were underpinned by the reasoning that you don't think it is justifiable that they can sanction you without giving you an avenue formally at the same time where you can try and dispute the decision, or an avenue with which to see the logs associated with the decision making, of which there is (DSAR). Instead of being insistent that you were innocent and that the community are just babies that like being coddled through everything. Inarguably you're more upset and have put more effort into this vent than the person did in actually reporting you.

I'm glad you liked the rationalisation of it. Because it's true. If you breach the ToS it shows an unwillingness to act appropriately and thus someone reporting you is doing a civil service by ensuring that you're deterred from repeating the mistake (That is if you reflect on your own actions) - P.S I saw that little ninja edit. In response to saying you'll use it as justification whenever you report someone. To that end I wish you all the best in your endeavours of fighting the good fight and doing the selfsame thing that you bashed people for in your original post.

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I am innocent. I haven't participated in 'grief tactics'. I complain about it constantly on here. Literally. I have gotten in arguments on here over what I think is griefing: the improper usage of rescue, RDM LB3 blinding players during mechanic heavy moments, etc.. The reason I vehemently defend my innocence is because, again, I did not do it. How I play the game isn't me "griefing", and I never stated that I outright am refusing to raise or heal people either, yet it seems to be a common accusation levied at me here.

I have barely put any effort in this vent. I have been posting now while queuing for my weekly raids, and eating breakfast. Yesterday, I think I only posted once in the morning.

I "ninja edit" just about every single thing I post, doesn't even matter what it was. I have talked about it before in other threads, people shouldn't think much on it.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I mean, they might not actually be reporting you out of spite- which is what a large chunk of us are trying to tell you..

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I simply do not believe that in the vast majority of circumstances someone is reporting another out of some sort of sense of 'duty'. It's laughably ridiculous to think about. No, it's out of spite. If someone feels the need to report another for leaving a leveling dungeon, that is incredibly petty, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

(Not healing, and by extension raising, another player because you don't like their getting hurt/dying)

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Oh my God... I never said I refuse to heal. Why does this keep getting brought up?!

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Originally Posted by kaynide

While I agree, I can understand why they don't as it adds a huge layer of busywork for the GMs and puts it firmly on them to sort out. Often it's very easy to reflect oneself, read the ToS and see "Ohhh I see that's what I did", then never need to file in the first place.

In my case I mocked a troll on the forum and got a 10 day ban for it. (Bravo to you, space-bunny-alien-fairy-person; you baited me and got me). Didn't realize that was what it was but I could figure it out in about 20-30 minutes of digging.

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Oh yeah I 100% see where you're coming from with that and I can see why they don't exactly do it that way. I can see how it puts a lot of pressure on the GM when they're going to be dealing with someone who's going to be upset and frustrated from the get-go. I can't imagine the amount of abuse that the GMs must get towards certain people every day they log in. At the same time, it's their job. While they might not be able to give out a specifics of the report and what went down, there should be a better alternative than "well you get a warning, you wanna contest it appeal".

While I do agree that we should do some reflection every once in a while, especially after a report, it's not that easy. Don't get me wrong here-- I've done my fair share of naughty things, emote spamming and cursing in /say, or trolling just a bit too hard. If I get pulled into GM baby jail for that I can at least be aware of the fact that those things, or a combination of, is what got me the warning.

But for warnings like griefing, that becomes a bit more convoluted. What's griefing to you and to someone else may be different, sans obvious cases like the person who posted about their party member aiming the laser at other alliances at Puppet's Bunker. Heck, even in the comment the OP made about how they plays healer, people are divided on whether or not that constitutes griefing. People run duties multiple times a day, and I'd be hard pressed to remember my actions in every dungeon and whether or not the stuff I did counted as a reportable offense. People definitely need a GM to clarify what led to a warning like that, not just self-reflection.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

I think we all have acted the fool at some point or another.

Honestly I think the really important takeaway from the thread is not the OPs guilt or innocence as much as it is it could happen to any of us that we incur a penalty and will never be told what we did to incur it. That is frankly a bit frightening.

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I 100% agree with you here.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

No way! Are you serious?! Someone reported my ridiculous post and the mods deleted it? Oh, the irony. Lol.

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If you can find the post again, requote it. I miss it already :(

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I am innocent. I haven't participated in 'grief tactics'. I complain about it constantly on here. Literally. I have gotten in arguments on here over what I think is griefing: the improper usage of rescue, RDM LB3 blinding players during mechanic heavy moments, etc.. The reason I vehemently defend my innocence is because, again, I did not do it. How I play the game isn't me "griefing", and I never stated that I outright am refusing to raise or heal people either, yet it seems to be a common accusation levied at me here. I have barely put any effort in this vent. I have been posting now while doing my weekly raids, and eating breakfast. Yesterday, I think I only posted once in the morning.

I "ninja" edit just about every single thing I post, doesn't even matter what it was. I have talked about it before in other threads, people shouldn't think much on it.

I simply do not believe that in the vast majority of circumstances, that someone is reporting another out of some sort of sense 'duty'. It's laughably ridiculous. No, it's out of spite. If someone feels the need to report another for leaving a leveling dungeon, that is incredibly petty, in my opinion.


Oh my God... I never said I refuse to heal. Why does this keep getting brought up?!

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Both a player reporting you and the GM sanctioning you would beg to differ and given how you've presented yourself on this very thread, it doesn't exactly put people in a position to really empathise with your venting. If you're innocent of it then the dispute process that was kindly recommended by another GM will yield some fruitful results. If it doesn't then, well, there seems to be a disparity between how you interpret ToS and what the ToS actually are. Regardless of the circumstance, how you raged doesn't exactly give you a good case to the people reading the thread. Did you miss the part where I said it was merely an example of something that would constitute as a violation? Furthermore, an infraction won't always be a recent behaviour, especially within the last few days. Depending on the volume it could date back weeks.

In fact, looking back at the first page. The only real question I have out of curiosity is whether you silently left, or whether you actually communicated why you were leaving. If it was the former then it leaves the motive up for debate. Whereas if you simply communicated "Sorry I can't play when my connection is this unreliable, I'll leave so it doesn't hinder the the run, bye", then it hardly leaves much in the room for debate. Communicating goes a long way.

I think of it because you elected to use that edit in order to omit what was otherwise a fairly comedic piece of text :(

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Originally Posted by Myrany

Except that it is a GMs job to sort out problems. So I have no sympathy on the busywork front.

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I respectfully disagree; I feel it's their job to "maintain the peace" as it were and to adjudicate/execute the "law". While I do agree they could tell you once a report is filed, I don't think they should need to lead with a detailed report on what you did beyond what specific ToS line you broke.

Again, agree to disagree, and that's ok.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I respectfully disagree; I feel it's their job to "maintain the peace" as it were and to adjudicate/execute the "law". While I do agree they could tell you once a report is filed, I don't think they should need to lead with a detailed report on what you did beyond what specific ToS line you broke.

Again, agree to disagree, and that's ok.

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1st I believe the GM needs to do the research to be able to "maintain the peace" or adjudicate something properly.

2nd they do not have to give a detailed report. They do in my opinion need to give a bit more than "griefing." For example a general statement such as "a pattern of not healing your party" that would not single anyone out as the reporter and give the player enough to know what to work on in thier own behavior.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I never stated that I outright am refusing to raise or heal people either, yet it seems to be a common accusation levied at me here.
Oh my God... I never said I refuse to heal. Why does this keep getting brought up?!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yes, I think how I play healer could also be a general issue with players. They see me casting glare constantly and whine about it. They should have never died in the first place. It is not my place to sit here and babysit bad players. If they die it's their fault.

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Seems to imply you are allowing people to die and once dead, leave them there. Even if not, a refusal to do raises is in the same vein. I'm not accusing you- I have no dog in this fight. I don't know any more than what is said here.

I'm simply trying to show you that you might not be innocent, and should that be the result of your appeal, I hope it doesn't make the world come crashing down around you.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I simply do not believe that in the vast majority of circumstances someone is reporting another out of some sort of sense of 'duty'. It's laughably ridiculous to think about. No, it's out of spite. If someone feels the need to report another for leaving a leveling dungeon, that is incredibly petty, in my opinion.

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I have filed several reports in my years in game, never out of spite. Simply reporting obvious trolls being obvious or purposefully being idiots at the expense of others. I've reported people for being rude and leavnig mid dungeon (In particular a player with a mentor crown had a lot of rude things to say at a sprout for not understanding a boss mechanic). I simply do not put up with BS.

To the point: I believe most people don't play with any particular other player enough to even have spite towards them. Fine to disagree here though- I don't know the motives of others.

Just file your appeal and get on with your life.